Rosenblatt article on offensive collapse: Zach sucked, players preffered Mike White

[JiFtheOracle]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Mike LaFleur is walking into the Rams OC job. We’re interviewing coaching backbenchers trying to get them to come here and resurrect Zach Wilson’s career while the owner of the team is openly talking about spending top dollar to bring in his replacement. But, yes, the problem was Mike LaFleur.

If only Lil Mikey would have left his position as OC, where he is responsible for the entire Offense and spent more time w/ Zach Wilson providing comfort and support and the real fundamentals, then obviously, Zach Wilson would be able to complete all the 5 yard swing passes the game of Football has ever seen.

 

[Rhg1084]

[win4ever]

1 minute ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Maybe the eight of you just sucked.

Possibly.  

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Mike LaFleur is walking into the Rams OC job. We’re interviewing coaching backbenchers trying to get them to come here and resurrect Zach Wilson’s career while the owner of the team is openly talking about spending top dollar to bring in his replacement. But, yes, the problem was Mike LaFleur.

Jeez, you hated the idea of MLF getting the Jets job for being the brother of Salehs friend but when he gets the Rams job for that reason, not so much? ?

[docdhc]

4 hours ago, BP said:

Wow shocking! No accountability at all. Wilson couldn’t complete passes in practice? Are you ******* kidding me? And then dopey saleh has him starting while the jets are dressed as circus performers?

At this point I don’t know who sucks more, Zach or saleh. Maybe they should both go read a book on a beach.

I'm not sure who he could have started with White injured.  Flacco was terrible.   Maybe Streveler but he certainly was limited.  Saleh made the choice to bench Wilson after the Pats game, he wasn't married to him.

[bitonti]

7 minutes ago, JiFields said:

If only Lil Mikey would have left his position as OC, where he is responsible for the entire Offense and spent more time w/ Zach Wilson providing comfort and support and the real fundamentals, then obviously, Zach Wilson would be able to complete all the 5 yard swing passes the game of Football has ever seen.

 

It would have been nice if the guy they took at 2 overall knew the basics of the position 

it's not the OC's job to teach Zach qb fundamentals he should have learned in middle school 

[JohnnyLV]

51 minutes ago, football guy said:

LaFleur didn't hate Zach. The problem was that he had an expectation out of Zach but was not willing or able to put in the work with Zach to get him where he wanted him to be. Instead of easing him into that or taking more of a hands-on approach with him, he simply stuck to his scheme and wanted the player to figure out how to meet the expectations of him with his positional coach. There was no room for the player to ask the coordinator "why"... When LaFleur felt the heat, he blamed it on the QB. I don't think he did so with malice, but instead of confronting any issues that were present, his strategy was to avoid it or cast people off to the side to figure it out on their own time... 

It's not a scheme thing, it's a Mike LaFleur thing. Look at how the Shanahan's operated with RGIII. It was arguably the opposite of what we did with Zach. They built an offense around what RGIII did well, and it was RGIII who petitioned them to run less and throw from the pocket more when the Shanahans knew he wasn't ready for it. When Kyle went to coach in Cleveland, he decided to leave the organization because they wanted to start Johnny Manziel in year 2 when Kyle said he was not ready. Look at how Sean McVay adjusted his offense by implementing spread/air raid into his scheme in order to accommodate Goff. Look at what Matt LaFleur did to accommodate Marcus Mariota. Yes they tend to be a little stricter than most, but not nearly as rigid as Mike LaFleur was. Everything needed to be perfect for his offense to succeed, and if it wasn't perfect it was downright horrible. Most offenses can't operate with such slim margins for error. 

Agree with everything you said. 

SF runs the same "scheme" as we do yet their implementation is almost 100% opposite than ours.

Refusal to adapt is the worst trait a head coach or coordinator can have and LaFleur is maybe the most stubborn OC I have ever seen.

Let's be honest, Ulbrich and Saleh were also super stubborn and it took a lot for them to tailor the defense more to the players. If Reed and Q don't call out the coaches we might still be playing a soft retreating zone like last year.

So glad he is gone

 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

I agree with your basic premise that our talent/depth wasn't good enough, but I also don't think the coaching was good enough. I don't think MLF is a good play caller and I don't think he did a good job dealing with injuries. Every team in the league has injuries, and I can guarantee you that whoever replaces MLF will have to deal with significant injuries next year, as well. 

I think MLF was inexperienced and a bit in over his head as a play caller. Good scheme does not equal good OC. 

All fair points.  +1

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It would have been nice if the guy they took at 2 overall knew the basics of the position 

it's not the OC's job to teach Zach qb fundamentals he should have learned in middle school 

Stop with this not his job, that is utter nonsense.

I am in leadership for a living, you know what type of people win in life?? People who do whatever the F is needed to get the job done. 

You know what type of people lose in life? People who list their job responsibilities when something is needed from them that doesn't fit their job description perfectly.

If he didnt want to, he should have quit when they drafted ZW, he didn't quit, he took the title and the money

[football guy]

28 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Where the hell are the leaders in that locker room.... CJ, Uzomah, Whitehead, McGovern, etc?

You don't banish the kid.... He's 22 and lost. Stand up for the kid at the least. As a father & manager, this is what you do.

Plenty of guys did that but I can't blame them for being sour the very next day while his comments were still fresh. If anything Zach needs to grow up. If I were in his shoes and I felt a certain way, I wouldn't have gone to the coach to talk about it... I would've addressed the team first thing. But Zach tends to overthink a lot of things so I'm sure that played into it 

17 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Not to throw shade on @football guy cause I agree with his coaching assessment, but he was stoic in his pronouncement that “getting Zach back on the field was ALWAYS plan…” yatta yatta Detroit, etc

It was never the plan. 

The plan going in was that the earliest Zach would return to the field was against Detroit. It came from a team source that I know and trust so I have no reason to believe otherwise, nor do I even question its validity considering who it came from.

[football guy]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It would have been nice if the guy they took at 2 overall knew the basics of the position 

it's not the OC's job to teach Zach qb fundamentals he should have learned in middle school 

It's actually one of the primary aspects of a QB coach's job. If "teaching" and maintaining fundamentals was so irrelevant, the QB coach position would not exist... 

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I'm going with Curtis Conway.

Windrell Hayes

[ChuckkieB]

How many articles, commentaries, analysis, and internet hot takes do we have to ingest before we are convinced to acknowledge one very simple fact - Zack Wilson is NOT a good QB and never will be, and MLF was a terrible OC and failed at his job for two years.  There is no defending either of them, but in typical battered wife syndrome, we try to anyway.  

Conclusion:  The Jets have made a mess of all of us!

[Tranquilo]

Why does it have to be one or other? Maybe both Zach Wilson and MLF suck?

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, JiFields said:

If only Lil Mikey would have left his position as OC, where he is responsible for the entire Offense and spent more time w/ Zach Wilson providing comfort and support and the real fundamentals, then obviously, Zach Wilson would be able to complete all the 5 yard swing passes the game of Football has ever seen.

 

I do not understand this caping for Zach Wilson at this point. His own franchise isn’t even trying to pretend he’s any good. 

[Paradis]

  

11 hours ago, football guy said:

LaFleur told him "don't do that anymore", which gave a ton of mixed messages. It certainly wasn't appreciated by Zach.

As I've explained a few times on here, Zach got to a point where he hated Connor Hughes. 

Unless you're fcking Zach Wilson - you're pushing the boundaries of insight. It's not like you two are chasing dragons in a local opium den together. 

So more likely, your intel is (and has been) Zach based/biased and from people in his agent/PR universe... in which case, all of your of scoops have the integrity of my penis in a brothel. You feel me? Can't be taken as objective truth

 

[RutgersJetFan]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Windrell Hayes

lol what a stupid guess

[JohnnyLV]

I think LaFleur is so bad that if we had drafted Lawrence we would likely be having the same conversations today. Lawrence also sucked with bad coaching. Now he is the next coming. I have disliked LaFleur since the "offense in a phone booth" explanation mid last year.

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, football guy said:

It's actually one of the primary aspects of a QB coach's job. If "teaching" and maintaining fundamentals was so irrelevant, the QB coach position would not exist... 

So we agree it's not the OC's job. It's nice to agree. 

[bitonti]

9 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Stop with this not his job, that is utter nonsense.

I am in leadership for a living, you know what type of people win in life?? People who do whatever the F is needed to get the job done. 

You know what type of people lose in life? People who list their job responsibilities when something is needed from them that doesn't fit their job description perfectly.

If he didnt want to, he should have quit when they drafted ZW, he didn't quit, he took the title and the money

saying "it's not his job" isn't the whole story 

a guy who used to be good and lost his form is one thing. Zach never had form. 

it's pretty much impossible to retool a player's motion during the season. 

it's an impossible job in other words, to "make Zach good through coaching" 

They wildly overdrafted this player and if the team was a meritocracy, Zach wouldn't be employed 

 

[JiFtheOracle]

14 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It would have been nice if the guy they took at 2 overall knew the basics of the position 

it's not the OC's job to teach Zach qb fundamentals he should have learned in middle school 

 

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I do not understand this caping for Zach Wilson at this point. His own franchise isn’t even trying to pretend he’s any good. 

The idea that Lil Mikey, working w/ a patch work OL that includes a rotating door at RT, 2 key rookies at WR and RB, a bunch of 2nd year skills positions players and a bunch of new faces from FA, should have been ignoring his responsibilities as over overseer of the entire offense, to spend more time working w/ Zach on squaring up to his target and avoid turning your back to the LOS while doing pirouettes in the back field is some next level sh*t.

Makes you wonder, how much time did Robert Saleh spend w/ Sauce Gardner working on fundamentals?  

 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

I do not understand this caping for Zach Wilson at this point. His own franchise isn’t even trying to pretend he’s any good. 

IMO, its far less about ZW, who I don't give a sh*t about, and really nobody should.

The real problem as I see it is ZW is a symptom, the real problem is the organization.

You previously just brought in a first time HC with zero QB experience, who brought in his besties brother to play OC, who also has zero experience in developing or bringing along a QB.

THEN, you draft a guy who has a very strong arm, plus athleticism, but came from a sh*t program, had fundamentals issues, and was seen as a bit of a dick.

Hope is not a strategy. The Jets hoped that the mechanically flawed, raw QB would magically learn on the job. They hoped that the not ready OC would be really good at his job. They hoped that the HC hired the right guy and would oversee all of this.

What happened? It all failed magnificently, why? Hope is not a strategy.

Who do we the fans blame, and who gets the axe? We blame the 23 year old QB, and say its all his fault. We fire the OC who wasnt ready to be an OC, and certainly wasnt ready to bring along a young raw QB, and we keep the people who hoped for everything.

Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the Jets!

[RutgersJetFan]

15 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I am in leadership for a living, you know what type of people win in life?? People who do whatever the F is needed to get the job done. 

You know what type of people lose in life? People who list their job responsibilities when something is needed from them that doesn't fit their job description perfectly.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

So we agree it's not the OC's job. It's nice to agree. 

oh BS, if someone on my team fails at their job, thats on me, stop this nothing is MLF's fault BS. Who was the QB coach that MLF brought in?

 

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

saying "it's not his job" isn't the whole story 

a guy who used to be good and lost his form is one thing. Zach never had form. 

it's pretty much impossible to retool a player's motion during the season. 

it's an impossible job in other words, to "make Zach good through coaching" 

They wildly overdrafted this player and if the team was a meritocracy, Zach wouldn't be employed 

 

he never should have been starting, period. Mahomes had serious flaws as well, so did Rodgers. They were both fixed and turned into all time greats. They were also drafted in the first round. 

You can yell and scream all you want about bad draft pick, but once the pick is made, good organizations do good things, bad ones do bad things. MLF had no business being in his role at this point in his career bringing along a young QB. 

If he disagreed with starting ZW right out of the gate, because he didnt think he was fundamentally or mentally ready, than he should have made a strong case to sit him

Maybe he did, but by all accounts he did not. Good leaders make good situations, MLF is not a good leader, nor is Saleh, nor is JD.

Blaming all of this on the 23 year old QB and not all the idiots involved in this disaster lets all the idiots do the same thing over again

[Matt39]

So it sounds like everything is bad

[PepPep]

2 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Unless the Jets foolishly trade for Rodgers and take on his $60 million annual salary. Then there is no money for any free agents......

[football guy]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

So we agree it's not the OC's job. It's nice to agree. 

Yes totally agree. But if you don't have a veteran QB coach that you can rely on or there's some sort of disconnect with the players, it's up to the OC as that person's manager to identify the issues, address them head on and help implement changes so you can achieve the results you expect. Mike LaFleur was conflict avoidant throughout his time in New York; instead of addressing real and present issues, he kept them disclosed. He was not a problem solver, he was a problem avoider. That's the problem... 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

So it sounds like everything is bad

Nah, all is good, ZW won't start next year, boom! SB incoming, Im ready for the parade

 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 minutes ago, football guy said:

Yes totally agree. But if you don't have a veteran QB coach that you can rely on or there's some sort of disconnect with the players, it's up to the OC as that person's manager to identify the issues, address them head on and help implement changes so you can achieve the results you expect. Mike LaFleur was conflict avoidant throughout his time in New York; instead of addressing real and present issues, he kept them disclosed. He was not a problem solver, he was a problem avoider. That's the problem... 

Bingo. I wish bitoni was my boss. When he comes to me and says why didnt you hit your numbers this year? I can just smile and say not my fault, its the sales guys fault I hired, talk to him. bitoni would say ok, good job

[oatmeal]

48 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Lmfaoooooo

[Flea Flicking Frank]

45 minutes ago, JiFields said:

If only Lil Mikey would have left his position as OC, where he is responsible for the entire Offense and spent more time w/ Zach Wilson providing comfort and support and the real fundamentals, then obviously, Zach Wilson would be able to complete all the 5 yard swing passes the game of Football has ever seen.

 

I mean, what do you do for a living?

Nobody is necessarily saying MLF should have himself fixed the flaws, but if you are in charge of something like the offense, that is also in charge of bringing along a young highly drafted QB, you probably should make sure someone on your staff is doing that, no?

If I hire someone, who has someone on his team not getting the job done, its my job to make sure he fixes it, I don't get to sit back and say, not my fault, this is why leaders get paid good money, and have fancy titles and offices, its because they have responsibility.

[football guy]

5 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Bingo. I wish bitoni was my boss. When he comes to me and says why didnt you hit your numbers this year? I can just smile and say not my fault, its the sales guys fault I hired, talk to him. bitoni would say ok, good job

Lol. Seriously though. I'm being totally honest with the fact that people inside the building were staunch defenders of Mike LaFleur. It wasn't just Saleh. The guy is extremely intelligent and he's a nice dude. The problem is that he truly lacked a lot of the leadership and confrontational skills required for a person in his position. You can get away with that being a PGC on Kyle Shanahan's staff. You can't when you're the head guy on offense. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, football guy said:

Lol. Seriously though. I'm being totally honest with the fact that people inside the building were staunch defenders of Mike LaFleur. It wasn't just Saleh. The guy is extremely intelligent and he's a nice dude. The problem is that he truly lacked a lot of the leadership and confrontational skills required for a person in his position. You can get away with that being a PGC on Kyle Shanahan's staff. You can't when you're the head guy on offense. 

I have met some really, really smart people who were really good at something, that were a really bad fit for something else and failed at other things. I have also met people who are far less intelligent, who happen to have necessary skills to succeed in something and do a really god job.

Its actually really disturbing to hear the people making millions, and millions of dollars per year to run the Jets, a multi-billion dollar franchise, don't get these basic leadership concepts.

Parcells wasnt the smartest guy in the room, but he damn well knew how to hire the smartest people and the best fits for their jobs.

The Jets are an organization with no leadership from the top down, and the results show. I don't care about ZW, I don't know him. But I care about the Jets, and blaming ZW for everything does not fix the real problem which is a complete lack of leadership in the organization.

If they beleived that much in MLF, they should have done one of two things, either started him with a vet QB to get him established, or they should have brought in some competent people around him to help him bring along a young QB.

I don't think MLF is a good OC at this point in his career, but I feel bad for him, he was put in a position to fail and he did. He did not step up and take leadership responsibility, and that is on him, but he was not ready for this role, which is on the Jets.

 

[bitonti]

22 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Makes you wonder, how much time did Robert Saleh spend w/ Sauce Gardner working on fundamentals?  

when you take a player that high in the draft you have choice of everyone in the country 

to pick a QB who doesn't know how to play QB was... interesting. 

7 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I mean, what do you do for a living?

Nobody is necessarily saying MLF should have himself fixed the flaws, but if you are in charge of something like the offense, that is also in charge of bringing along a young highly drafted QB, you probably should make sure someone on your staff is doing that, no?

If I hire someone, who has someone on his team not getting the job done, its my job to make sure he fixes it, I don't get to sit back and say, not my fault, this is why leaders get paid good money, and have fancy titles and offices, its because they have responsibility.

To use your job metaphor, Zach makes 30 Mil, JD makes 5, Saleh makes 3 and MLF makes less than 1

it's Zach's job to fix everything not MLF's job to fix Zach 

follow the money 

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

4 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I mean, what do you do for a living?

Nobody is necessarily saying MLF should have himself fixed the flaws, but if you are in charge of something like the offense, that is also in charge of bringing along a young highly drafted QB, you probably should make sure someone on your staff is doing that, no?

If I hire someone, who has someone on his team not getting the job done, its my job to make sure he fixes it, I don't get to sit back and say, not my fault, this is why leaders get paid good money, and have fancy titles and offices, its because they have responsibility.

All the "did not take ownership", "every problem is mine to solve", "I'm the leader, I will do anything to be great" ... if it's fair to levy that @ the OC, the coach and the GM, then why is it unfair to expect the same from the quarterback?

The Quarterback is a leader too.

Why has Herbert and Burrow both done so well despite the clear and obvious flaws in their organizations?

Maybe it's just that, at any given moment, there's about 10-12 dudes in the country that can play that position in the NFL correctly. And other than the Josh Allen exception, most all of them repeatedly showed their quality the moment they hit the field.