Rosenblatt article on offensive collapse: Zach sucked, players preffered Mike White

[Sonny Werblin]

I continue to believe two things about young QBs. First, you should make them earn the starting job. Second, you cannot make them so afraid of mistakes that they become ineffective -- I think there is a lot to be learned by throwing all of the passes in the playbook under game conditions as soon as possible. If the kid throws pics so be it. It is all part of the learning process. Hopefully, he'll have also made lots of routine throws and great throws along the way.  As my track coach use to say, you learn to run fast by running fast, not by jogging.

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, BroadwayRay said:

The "stretch" consisted of three games where the team did not have a functional quarterback.

Not quite. Common misconception on here. 

The stretch consisted of, at least, 6 games. 

The Jets scored 3 offensive touchdowns in their last SIX games, in the middle of a playoff race. After the Bears game, Mike White had one TD drive in Minnesota and one TD drive in Buffalo. Then Zach had one TD drive against Detroit. And then? No more TDs for the rest of the year - covering 40(!) straight offensive possessions. 

The offense completely collapsed during a playoff race in almost unimaginably bad fashion. Hard to bring the coordinator back when that happens. 

[LIJetsFan]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Agreed. By all accounts MLF was the passive one. At the end of the day Saleh relies on MLF to run the offense and keep him in the loop on important developments. Instead of addressing necessary beliefs he kept them to himself/told other staffers. I personally believe MLF can be a very good coordinator one day but he lacked the balls to make critical decisions here... 

Agree to disagree:

Saleh is the HC.  Saleh sees the offence heading into the sh!tter the latter part of the season.  Is there any evidence that Saleh did a deep dive into WTF was going wrong? 

Saleh must have had his own take.  Did he sit down with MLF and ask for his detailed explanation?   Did he sit down with each skill player and do the same?  If not, why not?  IMHO had he, he might have cleared up a few things before the skill players rebelled.  That is his job, right, to be the HC, the man in control? 

If he did all those things then I apologise.  If he didn't then he failed.      

[Flea Flicking Frank]

10 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I don't think MLF is a bad coach 

He will go somewhere else and find success 

He was fired because Zach is a terrible qb 

Everyone who is standing up for MLF is doing so based on a pre determined bias against ZW. He was hated the moment he was picked.

Like it or not, MLF's job was to work with the #2 overall drafted QB, who everyone with eyes could see had talent but was incredibly raw and needed a lot of development.

We don't always agree with the tasks we are given as a part of our job, but that doesn't make it any less our job, or make us any better at our job if we fail at that job.

What nobody really knows outside of the building, who was pushing ZW to start day 1 when he clearly wasn't ready. I don't want to hear about meaningless pre season games, he had mechanical flaws from day 1, and it was very clear that he was almost always confused by what the defense was throwing at him. 

He was a pretty accurate QB in college, and his accuracy problems came from a combo of footwork, and not really knowing what he was looking at.

Someone was pushing for him to start despite that. You speculate it was JD, but that is based on your clear dislike of ZW before he ever took a snap for the Jets.

If it was JD, he should be held accountable over MLF.

If it was Saleh, he should be held acocuntable.

If MLF agreed with starting him, he should be held accoutnable.

This is the classic problem with the way Woody operates, and how the Jets operate since Woody took over.

Instead of hating on the real problem, Woody, everyone turns on the 23 year old QB who never asked to be here.

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

LaFleur declared Wilson ready to start after his 2021 preseason. A QB coach or someone with deep knowledge of QB play is not going to generalize a player's readiness on a few preseason performances or practices. It's what goes on inside the QB room and on the field day in and day out that allows you to determine where a player is mentally and if they're ready to play. That disconnect was the problem, and whether that's on Rob Calabrese or Mike LaFleur is hard to say, but MLF did not make matters better. Matt Cavanaugh didn't join the organization until after the decision was already made... I'm sure had he been here throughout training camp he would've had a different perspective, but he wasn't, and if MLF was doing his job right he would've told his superiors that he wanted to start Mike White or Josh Johnson from the jump because he wanted to give Zach more time. Would he have gotten pushback? I'm sure of it. But at least MLF would've been doing his job right... So when the going got rough and Zach couldn't play within his system the way he showed in the preseason, it turned into "wellll Mike White, Josh Johnson, Joe Flacco can play in this scheme better than Zach can right now." 

No matter which way you spin it, LaFleur was either negligent or naïve. People interpreted him admitting that Zach probably should've started out on the bench as a shot at someone else in the building, but it was really MLF taking accountability for his own decisions. It would've been much easier to blame the Jets and the HC if they forced Zach onto MLF, but they didn't and he didn't push back on the plan to start a rookie Day 1 when he easily could have in all the months leading up to the draft. 

See the theme here?

Saleh hired a first time OC with a thin resume.  Saleh didn't have a pulse when it came to the issue?  Stop blaming a first time OC for the failure of the HC.  This is squarely on Saleh.  Lefluer is being scapped goated to protect Saleh.   Lefleur like a drafted QB needed to be developed and helped.  Saleh failed to step in and oversee the issues before they blew up into real problems.  

[mphtrilogy]

This article was a depressing read... 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, LIJetsFan said:

Agree to disagree:

Saleh is the HC.  Saleh sees the offence heading into the sh!tter the latter part of the season.  Is there any evidence that Saleh did a deep dive into WTF was going wrong? 

Saleh must have had his own take.  Did he sit down with MLF and ask for his detailed explanation?   Did he sit down with each skill player and do the same?  If not, why not?  IMHO had he, he might have cleared up a few things before the skill players rebelled.  That is his job, right, to be the HC, the man in control? 

If he did all those things then I apologise.  If he didn't then he failed.      

100%!!!! If the HC can't figure this out, what good is he? This is why I believe firing MLF by himself was crap and a cop out. Saleh is considered good, yet he oversaw the hiring of MLF, and whatever the hell MLF was or wasn't doing for 2 years.

I

[56mehl56]

28 minutes ago, Larz said:

Putting guys in the doghouse without telling them why is malpractice. Let’s not beat around the bush here that’s awful for a high school coach. The head coach has to step in when the OC can’t teach the offense and responds by lying to players.  
 

What an absolute cluster.   Everyone looks really bad here. Anyone that reads this and wants to take victory lap isn’t seeing how bad it is.  Amazing that Saleh survived this.  No accountability from anyone.  

But if MLF wasn't telling players anything , he was also probably telling Saleh everything was great and under control. Until the Moore blow-up it was probably radio silence across the board.  If it wasn't Woody and truly Saleh's and JD's decision to let MLF walk, I'd like to believe it was Saleh being letdown that his friend betrayed him this way and that Saleh really had no choice , but took the high road to not burn bridges. 

[undertow]

So you are telling me when Zach was throwing for 140 yards, missing open recievers by 10 feet and running around in circles he wasn't really playing well????????   

[football guy]

42 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

one of the things MLF said in training camp caught my eye.  Paraphrasing he was saying something to the effect that Zach should not worry about all 11 guys on defense and he was trying to teach him to focus only on his reads and not worry about where the Safety was or LBs on every play.  Basically telling him to forget about the whole field and to wear blinders.

Which I thought at the time was a really weird take even though Flacco also said something similar in another presser not long after MLF said it.  I mean it is probably a given at times to gloss over such a subject but to emphasize like he did was odd to me.  Weird thing to emphasize to a young QB and also teaching him to run away and throw away at same time.  Basically, forcing him into 1/2 reads and making him susceptible to turnovers not that he probably would have anyway.

MLF is not a QB teacher. He is a passing game coordinator/WR coach at heart. That's not a knock on him because Sean McVay is very similar. The difference between McVay and LaFleur is communication. 

LaFleur can tell the QBs how the play is supposed to work and what their reads should be, but he doesn't think like a QB which made it difficult to see things the way Zach was seeing them. He wanted Zach to do things the way he was told to... Zach had a lot of questions and wanted to "talk it out" with LaFleur being that he was the coordinator, but that wasn't LaFleur's approach. He wanted the positional coaches to do the dirty work, the teaching, the intellectual stuff which would allow him to focus on implementing the game plan and calling the plays. 

17 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

MLF seems to have ‘stayed in his lane’ with the things he wanted to do, and avoided what he didn’t want to do.  So he avoided really coaching ZW, put wrs in the doghouse until they heeled and learned everything MLF wanted them to, and stuck to calling his plays and fitting round pegs into square holes to fit his system.  There doesn’t seem to have been much discussion of, ok, this is what we have, how can we get the most out of it.  And Saleh let his little friend have full reign of things on offense.  Typical jets structure, defensive HC who delegates the offense to unqualified coaches.

No doubt Wilson can look better than he has, but that doesn’t mean he’s starting material.  

Excellent way to put it. And I don't think MLF did so with malice, I just don't think he's wired that way. He's conflict avoidant. 

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, slats said:

Read the entire article simply to confirm that this wasn’t a part of it. 

Nice work by you. Rosenblatt opens the article with an entire passage of Saleh sharing a tweet extolling patience, the body of the story is about how the offense went to hell because of Zach Wilson, and ends with the team losing its last seven games. Rosenblatt is a good writer. A literary man. 

[Alka]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

LaFleur took the brunt of the blame even though he hated Zach

If LeFleur hated his QB, then he deserved to be fired.  Your job as a coordinator is to work in a positive way with the players that you have, and making excuses by hating on players is what I describe as a "victims mentality."  Don't make excuses, take responsibility, and make things happen.  

I despise people with the "woe is me, woe is me" nonsense.  I am failing because my QB sucks.  No, you are failing because you are not good enough to get the most out of your player!

Now, I'm even more happy that the guy got fired!

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

4 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

Agree to disagree:

Saleh is the HC.  Saleh sees the offence heading into the sh!tter the latter part of the season.  Is there any evidence that Saleh did a deep dive into WTF was going wrong? 

Saleh must have had his own take.  Did he sit down with MLF and ask for his detailed explanation?   Did he sit down with each skill player and do the same?  If not, why not?  IMHO had he, he might have cleared up a few things before the skill players rebelled.  That is his job, right, to be the HC, the man in control? 

If he did all those things then I apologise.  If he didn't then he failed.      

I'm pretty sure the HC shouldn't have to sit down with each skill player to have a chat. That's what having a staff is for. He steps in when its time for something major to happen. Such as..benching the QB, like he did. 

[56mehl56]

21 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I don't think MLF is a bad coach 

He will go somewhere else and find success 

He was fired because Zach is a terrible qb 

MLF like many coaches look great when they have the players that fit their system. His stubborness to not adapt is why he no longer has the job here. 

[section314]

3 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But if MLF wasn't telling players anything , he was also probably telling Saleh everything was great and under control. Until the Moore blow-up it was probably radio silence across the board.  If it wasn't Woody and truly Saleh's and JD's decision to let MLF walk, I'd like to believe it was Saleh being letdown that his friend betrayed him this way and that Saleh really had no choice , but took the high road to not burn bridges. 

If all this stuff is accurate, what NFL team would hire MLF as an OC? It’s almost like this was a commissioned hit piece.

[football guy]

2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But if MLF wasn't telling players anything , he was also probably telling Saleh everything was great and under control. Until the Moore blow-up it was probably radio silence across the board.  If it wasn't Woody and truly Saleh's and JD's decision to let MLF walk, I'd like to believe it was Saleh being letdown that his friend betrayed him this way and that Saleh really had no choice , but took the high road to not burn bridges. 

Exactly. It all came to a head on November 21. Zach walked into Saleh's office and looked absolutely defeated. None of his teammates spoke to him all morning and it clearly got to him. Saleh saw a broken kid and determined it was time to step in. He got everyone in a room and demanded to know what the offensive coaches were seeing as it pertained to Zach. This shouldn't be pulling teeth... 

[FootballLove]

1 hour ago, Sammybighead said:

Does MLF have the right to hate zach? 

He hand picked zach because he was sure zach can be a star, run his system, and develop under his tutelage. The fact that MLF failed to squeeze even 1 drop of juice from Zach speaks way more to MLF failures than zach.

And before anyone chimes in and says JD drafted him, yes, the ultimate buck falls with JD. However, there is no way in hell anyone can tell me MLF, who was solely entrusted to manage and run his offensive scheme, didn't have significant input and required sign-off on any qb that was drafted. Let's face it, he's Mr. Shanahan system and those guys put all their faith in his opinion. I still have an image of him smiling ear to ear watching zach throw at the combine.

MLF failed to degree that cannot be put into words. 

Hows this for words: You're FIRED! ?

[LIJetsFan]

2 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I'm pretty sure the HC shouldn't have to sit down with each skill player to have a chat. That's what having a staff is for. He steps in when its time for something major to happen. Such as..benching the QB, like he did. 

If you think the offence imploding the latter part of the season isn't major then I've nothing else to say to you.   

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

He got everyone in a room and demanded to know what the offensive coaches were seeing as it pertained to Zach. This shouldn't be pulling teeth... 

Why wasn't this happening from day one?

Feels like a giant failure from the coaching staff. If Wilson was visibly terrible in practice and the offensive coaches were down on him all along, he should have been benched long before either Patriots game. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

1 minute ago, LIJetsFan said:

If you think the offence imploding the latter part of the season isn't major then I've nothing else to say to you.   

It is major, that's why he stepped in and benched Wilson.

[Alka]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

he body of the story is about how the offense went to hell because of Zach Wilson

If we're being honest, the offense went to hell for a number of reasons, one of which was Zach Wilson.  We couldn't block for the running backs, the running backs weren't good enough, the offensive linemen couldn't block long enough to protect Zach Wilson, and the F-ing wide receivers are all f-ing babies because they don't like Zach, and don't want to play with him.

How about this?  Be a professional, stop your whining and complaining, and go out there and run the routes to the best of your ability and get open.  The offensive line needs to block better to give the QB more time, whoever is at the helm.  Lefleur hated Zach?!  Then I'm grateful that he got fired!  Don't need that mindset on our team.

You want to read a good book that will make you understand exactly what I'm talking about?  Read: "The Boys in the Boat".   That book will explain what happens when not everyone is together and thinking in the same way.

[football guy]

7 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Saleh hired a first time OC with a thin resume.  Saleh didn't have a pulse when it came to the issue?  Stop blaming a first time OC for the failure of the HC.  This is squarely on Saleh.  Lefluer is being scapped goated to protect Saleh.   Lefleur like a drafted QB needed to be developed and helped.  Saleh failed to step in and oversee the issues before they blew up into real problems.  

I'm not defending Saleh by any means. He hired Greg Knapp to oversee and support the development of a first-time coordinator, a first-time QB coach, and a rookie QB. That man passed away tragically. From my understanding he did try to hire Gary Kubiak but he declined. The front office and other relationships helped them land Cavanaugh as a replacement with the understanding he was doing them a favor for the 1 year. My biggest criticism of Saleh was that he didn't prioritize replacing Knapp last offseason. Instead he declared MLF and Rob Calabrese ready to do things on their own. Major mistake that could very well spell the end of his HC tenure with the NYJ if he doesn't turn things around in 2023. 

[football guy]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Why wasn't this happening from day one?

Feels like a giant failure from the coaching staff. If Wilson was visibly terrible in practice and the offensive coaches were down on him all along, he should have been benched long before either Patriots game. 

I would agree with you, but I also think Saleh hired Greg Knapp to be that guy. Saleh doesn't have a QB background and he shouldn't expect to micromanage in areas he's not fluent in. 

[undertow]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

Why wasn't this happening from day one?

Feels like a giant failure from the coaching staff. If Wilson was visibly terrible in practice and the offensive coaches were down on him all along, he should have been benched long before either Patriots game. 

Their master plan was jamming Wilson on the field no matter what and letting him figure it out along side a rookie coaching staff who was also trying to figure it out for two years....and then wallah Super Bowl year three.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, football guy said:

I would agree with you, but I also think Saleh hired Greg Knapp to be that guy. Saleh doesn't have a QB background and he shouldn't expect to micromanage in areas he's not fluent in. 

maybe not, but if things arent working, its Salehs job to step in and figure it out. That is not micro managing, that is doing your job 

[derp]

15 minutes ago, football guy said:

LaFleur declared Wilson ready to start after his 2021 preseason. A QB coach or someone with deep knowledge of QB play is not going to generalize a player's readiness on a few preseason performances or practices. It's what goes on inside the QB room and on the field day in and day out that allows you to determine where a player is mentally and if they're ready to play. That disconnect was the problem, and whether that's on Rob Calabrese or Mike LaFleur is hard to say, but MLF did not make matters better. Matt Cavanaugh didn't join the organization until after the decision was already made... I'm sure had he been here throughout training camp he would've had a different perspective, but he wasn't, and if MLF was doing his job right he would've told his superiors that he wanted to start Mike White or Josh Johnson from the jump because he wanted to give Zach more time. Would he have gotten pushback? I'm sure of it. But at least MLF would've been doing his job right... So when the going got rough and Zach couldn't play within his system the way he showed in the preseason, it turned into "wellll Mike White, Josh Johnson, Joe Flacco can play in this scheme better than Zach can right now." 

No matter which way you spin it, LaFleur was either negligent or naïve. People interpreted him admitting that Zach probably should've started out on the bench as a shot at someone else in the building, but it was really MLF taking accountability for his own decisions. It would've been much easier to blame the Jets and the HC if they forced Zach onto MLF, but they didn't and he didn't push back on the plan to start a rookie Day 1 when he easily could have in all the months leading up to the draft. 

See the theme here?

Yeah, so I had no issue with MLF being let go. And I get that idealistically, you want to prioritize the development of a young quarterback over the short-term roster. But you ducked the larger point I was making, which was that due to flawed roster construction LaFleur was not put into a position where it was straightforward to put another starter out there. You pretty much acknowledged it with the bold. Common theme with this organization right now. Coaches could've done their job better, roster construction makes doing the right thing complicated.

Sure, LaFleur was either negligent or naive. Douglas was negligent first. The need to have a veteran on the roster was glaringly obvious and that's something that happens in March before Wilson's even picked

[Flea Flicking Frank]

10 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

MLF like many coaches look great when they have the players that fit their system. His stubborness to not adapt is why he no longer has the job here. 

Is it stubborness, or was it that he was just too inexeperienced to this? Nothing I saw from him here told me he was remotely qualified for this job, which encompassed bringing along a raw highly drafted QB.

To me, the person/people who brought in MLF need to have some accountability here

[56mehl56]

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Why wasn't this happening from day one?

Feels like a giant failure from the coaching staff. If Wilson was visibly terrible in practice and the offensive coaches were down on him all along, he should have been benched long before either Patriots game. 

The team was winning so MLF continued to not say anything and Saleh felt there was no need to rock the boat . imo the Moore blow-up was what set this death spiral in motion and in essence opened all eyes. 

[jamesr]

59 minutes ago, Claymation said:

Exactly, but another play was the in NE game where both Whitehead and Joyner missed tackles on 3rd down and forever.

Make that tackle and NE doesn't score, Jets win. 

 

There's a safety over in Seattle we might be able to swing a trade for.  

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

The problem is that MLF was historically bad down the stretch, largely without Zach. 

So, while Zach was clearly the biggest weakness on the team and has been the biggest bust of the JD era, MLF did not earn the right to come back. 

The coaching staff performed as poorly as any Jets coaching staff has in my lifetime. 

Was he?

Is there an O-Co who'd have kicked ass running a 4th string O-line protecting a broken-ribs-but-still-playing JAG 2nd string QB/ Check-cashing 3rd string QB handing off to his 5th string RB?

I'm unconvinced the late-season collapse was because of Offensive scheme/play-calling, given the poop-show of a offensive roster we trotted out most weeks.  

You cannot polish a turd, and the talent on our O (outside of a WR or two) in those late season games (including Zach, White and Flacco most of all) was just not up to NFL standards.

We'll start next year healthy, perhaps, but if we wind up playing as deep as we had to in this stretch, whomever we convince to be O-Co next year will be just as bad off.  No matter who he is.

Again, you cannot polish a turd.  100% healthy, we're just above a turd.  Mass injuries, we're 100% turd on O.

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Is it stubborness, or was it that he was just too inexeperienced to this? Nothing I saw from him here told me he was remotely qualified for this job, which encompassed bringing along a raw highly drafted QB.

To me, the person/people who brought in MLF need to have some accountability here

Not denying everyone shares blame here. I'm certainly  hoping the interviews for this OC are dramatically different . With questions like what is your plan for  1) Zach, 2) Carr or another vet QB. Will you adapt your plan to fit the players and have the ability to change on the fly if injuries or bad performance dictate it, 

[bitonti]

18 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

MLF like many coaches look great when they have the players that fit their system. His stubborness to not adapt is why he no longer has the job here. 

He did adapt and dumbed down the offense for Zach 

Zach is just that bad. 

[Sonny Werblin]

I continue to believe that while players were frustrated by Zach's poor play and wanted Mike White to start, they did not hate Zach Wilson.  I've never bought into that being true and I saw nothing of Zach's interactions with teammates to make me think they hated him. Yes, they were frustrated with his poor play, but these guys have been playing football a lot of years and their mental default is to support a teammate. 

[IndianaJet]

9 minutes ago, football guy said:

I would agree with you, but I also think Saleh hired Greg Knapp to be that guy. Saleh doesn't have a QB background and he shouldn't expect to micromanage in areas he's not fluent in. 

This.

When Bowles was here, all people did was scream that he focused on the defense only.

When Gase was here, all people did was scream that he focused on the offense only.

I'm old enough to remember January of 2021 when 99% of the board wanted a CEO type coach, who would act as a CEO overseeing the team but leave the micromanagement of the players to his coordinators and staff.  Saleh, even though his background was defense, was that guy.

Now, people have every right to hate on Saleh for how the team has been run and some of the decisions he made...but to criticize him because he wasn't micromanaging or coaching specific players enough is revisionist history.

[Larz]

22 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Nice work by you. Rosenblatt opens the article with an entire passage of Saleh sharing a tweet extolling patience, the body of the story is about how the offense went to hell because of Zach Wilson, and ends with the team losing its last seven games. Rosenblatt is a good writer. A literary man. 

Whatever the need is to scapegoat everything on Zach , Moore and Wilson hated lafleur too. When you can’t score a TD in a month it’s not all Zach’s parents. It’s just not. There is a lot of blame to go around, JD, Saleh, lafleur, Zach, Mike, Moore, injuries to oline, Tomlinson stealing money and where was Flacco veteraning this thing up ?