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GAME OF THRONES (*SPOILERS ALERT*)

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Honestly they should take the Dexter route and just have Dany disappear in a storm off to some far off place as a lumberjack. It’s a shame how they turned one of the greatest shows ever into a Michal Bay inspired CGI first, plot completely secondary show.


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You're close. I don't think money is important to a man who dresses like grrm. But he started his series as a moderately successful author and ended it (TBD) as the greatest author of our generation.

Pressure can be poison to a man whose greatest ambition in life is to find the perfect bowl of green chile

I think it’s exceedingly possible that GRRM got crazy wealthy and lost the thread. 


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51 minutes ago, section314 said:

Question for the people who have read all the books. Do the dragons obey any Targaryan, or just Dany? If she is killed , and Jon lives, can he control Drogon?

Not really explained in the book. They tend to favour Targaryans as far as I'm aware but I doubt he'll be able to control him. He'll probably burn everything if Dany's killed - Best kill the dragon first.

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27 minutes ago, bitonti said:

You're close. I don't think money is important to a man who dresses like grrm. But he started his series as a moderately successful author and ended it (TBD) as the greatest author of our generation.

Pressure can be poison to a man whose greatest ambition in life is to find the perfect bowl of green chile
 

 


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I don’t think GRRM feels pressure, nor do I think he cares about money. I think he’s checked out because writing is excruciatingly difficult work and few people can do it when they can just go out and buy a Ferrari instead. Happens to artists all the time. 

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Here’s an amazing thread/discussion about GoT and the process behind it: 

 

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After episode 3, I was disappointed because I thought the NK story was short-changed in favor of a Cercei endgame.  Now I see the endgame is Jon vs. Dany, which is better.

But, it's still sloppy and rushed and winter lasted only 30 minutes, we deserved more winter.

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1 hour ago, JiF said:

And right before he died!!! That's terrible timing. 

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Was telling someone today... They spent 6 seasons developing archetypes, and then completely colon blow-out shat all over them the past 2 seasons, but this one most gratuitously.

Jon Snow. He is loyal, yes. He knows nothing, yes. However, his most notable character trait is that he's righteous. He has systematically compromised righteousness over and over again for Dany. He didn't do it for Egrid. He didn't do it for the Black. They ruined everything they built in him by making him stand there idle, while Dany became a monster.

Arya. As great as the work they've done with her character has been, even that stupid season of faceless crap, they just completely abandoned everything she's about. I mean, right up until she tell's Gendry "that's not me" she was consistent. Then, last night she basically became a weak, unresourceful, clumsy and soft character. Thanking the Hound? C'mon.

Tyrion. Hasn't been Tyrion since he became the hand of the queen. I get him being wrong once, but the fact that they keep making him this ass of an advisor to her makes no sense at all. He was a master-manipulator for years. Now he's a pud? No. Not acceptable.

Cersei. Crying that she doesn't want to die? WTF. How ******* pathetic. Barking orders and having that goofy hand of hers tell her sh*ts already been destroyed like she isn't ahead of the information? No. No. No. The fact that Cersei had nothing up her sleeve at all? Nothing? No.

Varys. Good writers would have know to have Varys say, "I know." When Tyrion admitted it was him that betrayed him. Varys would have been way ahead of the game here. The fact that Dany inexplicably know all the dirt, and Varys and Tyrion were dults makes no sense at all.

I mean, this was just off-the-top of my head. The great shows are the ones that declare the archetypes of the people involved in the story and stay true to those archetypes. Case in point: Walter White. The entire character, and thus the story and all of its details, are centered around the notion that he is an Enneagram 1.

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Here’s an amazing thread/discussion about GoT and the process behind it: 

 

Really good so far... but the immediate question I ask myself is, why does GoT have stiff characters AND a meandering plot? It's like they've got the worst of both going on right now... 

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Also.,.. The Hound letting Cersei just walk on by? Nope. Would have been nothing for him to lop her head off. That would have been the most vengeful thing he could have done to his brother other than killing him. Why not pour it on? 

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3 hours ago, bitonti said:

You're close. I don't think money is important to a man who dresses like grrm. But he started his series as a moderately successful author and ended it (TBD) as the greatest author of our generation.


 

 

This is the type of thing that people who don’t read books say. He’s nothing close to this. Martin is an extraordinarily successful serial novelist, and that’s fine. JK Rowling for adults. 

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4 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Why not just kill Jon?

The whole northern army would immediately turn on her.   She could take them out, but it would further deplete her armies.

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there was no way in hell that this season was going to look like a success.  this show is a cultural phenomenon.  I have co workers who just started binge watching season 1 because they heard its the popular thing to watch. unlike others who have invested a lot of time and years watching.  there was always going to be a let down.  this season might be one of the weakest (except the one with dorne. that was s hit). but it is still better then 90 percent of the shows on tv.  its gona go down as not only a top 5 show ever but probably the most ambitious show ever.  i wish some things were different (mainly the jamie and cersi death, thought they could of done better with that, though I read some interesting points of how the redkeep where she always felt safe was the one to kill them).  My guess is jon, danny, greyworm, and possibly tyrion die.  sansa will prolly win the throne.  

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4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Here’s an amazing thread/discussion about GoT and the process behind it: 

 

Great points.  It does make some sense and below is the point that I think is absolutely true and really isn't resting so well with people:

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15 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

I partially agree with this.  Martin did create a lot of threads, many unnecessary, but the show tossed a lot of them out, so that only works as so much of an excuse.  I wouldn't be that overly shocked if the books (assuming they ever come out at all) end up with some seriously questionable stuff... as not everything he's done has all been well received either.  However, I don't think it's even a question that it will certainly be stylistically different, and they're at least partially responsible for that, whether good or bad.

To be fair some of the plots introduced either translate badly to a TV show or have no obvious direction. I mean I love book Euron precisely because I have no idea what the hell he’s doing, always feared the worst when the show introduced him (but **** sake I didn’t think it would be that bad). The Dorne plot wouldn’t have been easily executed without dragging. Lady Stoneheart could have been really awful. 

Aegon is the weird omission – Seemed an easy character to introduce and write, would have given Varys something to do. I think he will be the reason Dany burns Kings Landing if she does in the books. Conleth Hill is pissed at what they did with the character but there was nothing to do with him once that story was cut. They should have killed him off in Season 5. Not sure why they didn’t flesh out the North/Riverlands immediately after the Red Wedding – You sort of forget about the Freys in the show until Arya shows up and Arya’s them. That was a waste. 

The obvious difference will be seeing the motivation of characters, which ASOIAF shows by design. The biggest complaint in recent seasons, beyond the poor dialogue has been the lack of reason for characters doing what they’re doing. 
 

 

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15 hours ago, IndianaJet said:

This whole, the season is "so rushed" thing is really just a myth.  They've ALWAYS rushed through things to get to a bigger plot point.

If you rewatch all of the seasons you can easily point out places where they've "rushed through" things.

For example, in season 1 Catelyn goes from Winterfell to Kings Landing in one episode, then makes her way back to the Inn of the Crossroads in the next episode.  All the while, the tournament of the hand is going on in both episodes.  It's supposed to take two months to go from Winterfell to Kings Landing.  They rushed right through this.

Then, in Season 1 episode 8, about 20 minutes into the episode, Rob Stark learns for the first time that Ned has been taken captive.  Rob is still in Winterfell and sends ravens to call his bannermen and go to war against the Lannisters.  By the end of episode 8 Rob has gatherted his armies and their marching south.  Again....clearly rushed through.

That’s not what people mean by rushed.

They never truly laid the groundwork for Dany going mad. They’d completely white washed her most seasons and then out of nowhere she’s a paranoid wreck and now the ultimate villain – Yes she suffered trauma but she showed almost no insecurity before with her earlier trauma. They’re paying the price for writing her as they have. It made me question how Varys or Tyrion could even slightly think that she might burn down the whole city – She’d done nothing to suggest she would – She was selflessly trying to save the world from death two episodes ago. 

We know why Catelyn went to KL, we know why Robb called his bannermen, why they came. The time skips aren’t an issue when they’re still bringing you to the next logical step.
 

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Question about dragon physiology.

Can they just spit perpetual fire? Without eating a horse or a goat or something?

I know the episode only showed the dragon reigning fire for about 30 minutes but I’m guessing in real time it was about 2 hours to destroy the iron fleet, all the spear guns, the entire city and the Red Keep. 

Never saw the dragon stop for a snack. 

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1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

Question about dragon physiology.

Can they just spit perpetual fire? Without eating a horse or a goat or something?

I know the episode only showed the dragon reigning fire for about 30 minutes but I’m guessing in real time it was about 2 hours to destroy the iron fleet, all the spear guns, the entire city and the Red Keep. 

Never saw the dragon stop for a snack. 

It does seem to stretch credibility, doesn't it.  Drogon was like a bowling ball with butcher knives.

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43 minutes ago, nycdan said:

It does seem to stretch credibility, doesn't it.  Drogon was like a bowling ball with butcher knives.

As far you want to stretch credibility. 

Look, it’s a fire breathing dragon. 

Should he have to stop to take in a few calories?

Or maybe they just generate fire whilst breathing, like we produce CO2. 

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4 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

That’s not what people mean by rushed.

They never truly laid the groundwork for Dany going mad. They’d completely white washed her most seasons and then out of nowhere she’s a paranoid wreck and now the ultimate villain – Yes she suffered trauma but she showed almost no insecurity before with her earlier trauma. They’re paying the price for writing her as they have. It made me question how Varys or Tyrion could even slightly think that she might burn down the whole city – She’d done nothing to suggest she would – She was selflessly trying to save the world from death two episodes ago. 

We know why Catelyn went to KL, we know why Robb called his bannermen, why they came. The time skips aren’t an issue when they’re still bringing you to the next logical step.
 

2 points: 

First - 

How can you say they haven't been laying this groundwork?  They literally foreshadowed her destruction of Kings Landing way back in season 2 when her visions as a captive in the House of Undying showed a burnt out Red Keep (replete with what we thought was snow falling but now we know it was ash).  Even Bran had visions of a dragon flying over the buildings in Kings Landing back when he was north of the wall.

In addition, Dany has repeatedly wanted to burn cities down when things weren't going her way, only to be talked out of it by her "trusted" advisers, all of whom now have either been slaughtered (Jorah and Missande) or betrayed her (Jon, Varys, and Tyrion). 

How many times over the last two seasons did she need to be told she didn't want to be the Queen of Ashes?  Everything she has gone through, from being sold to the Dorthraki essentially to be raped, up through being betrayed by her advisers and the people she loved, has been leading up to this. 

Short of having a scene of her rocking back and forth in a chair in her chambers while speaking in tongues and scribbling "kill them all" on the walls, I'm not sure what else you wanted?

Second -

Who says Dany actually went mad?

She has known only one thing in her whole life, reclaiming the Iron Throne.  She had a plan in place to take back that throne based upon her belief that she had the only true right to the Seven Kingdoms.  Despite her urges to burn everything down in her path, she listened to her advisers and decided that the path of mercy was the way to, not only win the physical throne, but to win over the affections of the people she was trying to save.  

Now, she's learned that the path of mercy may win her the physical throne - but word is out that Jon Snow is the true and rightful heir and that there is nothing she can do that will cause the people of Westeros to love her more than the righteous, merciful and heroic Jon Snow.

So perhaps she didn't go mad.  Perhaps she made the conscious decision that the ONLY way she can really claim the throne now that Jon's secret is out, is through fear and destruction because the merciful way will only eventually lead to the people wanting Jon on the throne.

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17 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Also.,.. The Hound letting Cersei just walk on by? Nope. Would have been nothing for him to lop her head off. That would have been the most vengeful thing he could have done to his brother other than killing him. Why not pour it on? 

I respectfully disagree. 

The Hound has never given two sh*ts about Cersei...his focus has always been on his brother.

In fact, when they're on the stairs and Cersei walks by, he doesn't even look at her.  He is intently staring at his brother.

The Hound could care less about whether Cersei lived or died.

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25 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

Who says Dany actually went mad?

She has known only one thing in her whole life, reclaiming the Iron Throne.  She had a plan in place to take back that throne based upon her belief that she had the only true right to the Seven Kingdoms.  Despite her urges to burn everything down in her path, she listened to her advisers and decided that the path of mercy was the way to, not only win the physical throne, but to win over the affections of the people she was trying to save.  

Now, she's learned that the path of mercy may win her the physical throne - but word is out that Jon Snow is the true and rightful heir and that there is nothing she can do that will cause the people of Westeros to love her more than the righteous, merciful and heroic Jon Snow.

So perhaps she didn't go mad.  Perhaps she made the conscious decision that the ONLY way she can really claim the throne now that Jon's secret is out, is through fear and destruction because the merciful way will only eventually lead to the people wanting Jon on the throne.

While I see your point, it doesnt matter if she has actually gone "mad".  The perception is, she's gone mad and that was quite clear.  Every look the people with morals gave during that episode was, "oh sh*t, the coin flipped on the wrong side".  And she's going to die because of it.  

I know the show is hinting that it's Arya or Jon who kills her but I think it's Tyrion.  The story comes full circle.  The Starks are good people with high moral ground, the Targaryens are psychos and the Lannisters are king slayers. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

I respectfully disagree. 

The Hound has never given two sh*ts about Cersei...his focus has always been on his brother.

In fact, when they're on the stairs and Cersei walks by, he doesn't even look at her.  He is intently staring at his brother.

The Hound could care less about whether Cersei lived or died.

Agreed and just like he knew Arya wouldnt survive, I'm sure he knew Cersei wouldnt either. 

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5 minutes ago, JiF said:

While I see your point, it doesnt matter if she has actually gone "mad".  The perception is, she's gone mad and that was quite clear.  Every look the people with morals gave during that episode was, "oh sh*t, the coin flipped on the wrong side".  And she's going to die because of it.  

I know the show is hinting that it's Arya or Jon who kills her but I think it's Tyrion.  The story comes full circle.  The Starks are good people with high moral ground, the Targaryens are psychos and the Lannisters are king slayers. 

 

 

There are 4 people on the sh*t list after last week.....Tyrion, Jon, Davos, and Sansa, with Sansa on top of the list. Now that Cersei is gone, Dany will deal with her biggest threat, Sansa. She laid it out in the scene with Jon when she basically said that Sansa constructed the plot to remove her by telling Jon's secret. Arya knows Sansa is in danger and will rush back to protect her. There will another fight at Winterfell, Arya will die, but Brienne, who took the oath to defend the Stark girls, will kill Dany, protecting Sansa. And Jon will knock off GreyWorm...you know that fight is coming.

 

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3 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Question about dragon physiology.

Can they just spit perpetual fire? Without eating a horse or a goat or something?

I know the episode only showed the dragon reigning fire for about 30 minutes but I’m guessing in real time it was about 2 hours to destroy the iron fleet, all the spear guns, the entire city and the Red Keep. 

Never saw the dragon stop for a snack. 

While I completely see where this is coming from, I think some of the best athletes in the world go 3-4 hours without eating, like in a double OT NBA game or an NFL game. So I guess 2 hours might be doable for Drogon.

But, then again:

photo.jpg

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9 minutes ago, section314 said:

There are 4 people on the sh*t list after last week.....Tyrion, Jon, Davos, and Sansa, with Sansa on top of the list. Now that Cersei is gone, Dany will deal with her biggest threat, Sansa. She laid it out in the scene with Jon when she basically said that Sansa constructed the plot to remove her by telling Jon's secret. Arya knows Sansa is in danger and will rush back to protect her. There will another fight at Winterfell, Arya will die, but Brienne, who took the oath to defend the Stark girls, will kill Dany, protecting Sansa. And Jon will knock off GreyWorm...you know that fight is coming.

 

Ooooohhhhh....I like this....

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3 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Question about dragon physiology.

Can they just spit perpetual fire? Without eating a horse or a goat or something?

I know the episode only showed the dragon reigning fire for about 30 minutes but I’m guessing in real time it was about 2 hours to destroy the iron fleet, all the spear guns, the entire city and the Red Keep. 

Never saw the dragon stop for a snack. 

Dany had candies in her purse.

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17 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

This is the type of thing that people who don’t read books say. He’s nothing close to this. Martin is an extraordinarily successful serial novelist, and that’s fine. JK Rowling for adults. 

Yes it's true RJF, i've never learned to read. F you for exposing my deepest secret. *DICTATED BUT NOT READ, OBVIOUSLY*

Just a prediction, people will be consuming GoT (books, shows, video games etc) for a century after we're all dead. But that's a tough theory to test. 

4 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Question about dragon physiology.

Can they just spit perpetual fire? Without eating a horse or a goat or something?

Dragons are basically wings stapled to an alligator. Nothing about it makes sense, aerodynamically. It certainly shouldn't be able to just vertically take off like a Harrier jump jet

but no actually, they do require 12 goats every 15000 people burned. It's called Aegon's ratio and GRRM will be covering it in a book to be released 20 years from now 

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28 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Yes it's true RJF, i've never learned to read. F you for exposing my deepest secret. *DICTATED BUT NOT READ, OBVIOUSLY*

Just a prediction, people will be consuming GoT (books, shows, video games etc) for a century after we're all dead. But that's a tough theory to test. 

I didn’t call you dumb, I said you probably read dumb books. 

As to the latter point; yeah, it’s Star Wars. And that’s fine. But that doesn’t make Timothy Zahn a modern day Proust. 

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Episode 3 Arya sh*t made me so mad.

After all that faceless stuff, how does Arya not shapeshift into a wight or a WW, to sneak up on the NK?   

Arya's superpower is shapeshifting, yet she kills the NK using cloaking and teleportation and jumping like a superfrog.  That would be like Ironman sneaking up on the villain using spidersense and capturing him with webbing.

Every time the NK touches someone they are marked or turned... except Arya of course.

It's not even Arya's fight!  She didnt even know about the NK until yesterday.

The NK was the greatest threat going into S8, and was dispatched in one episode after they gave us two lame bottle episodes.  They should have given us a NK flashback episode  when he was defeated, yet not killed, during the last winter long ago.   How do you defeat him without killing him anyway?  Nope, too busy reuniting Jaime and Bran for anything interesting like that.


 

 

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16 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I didn’t call you dumb, I said you probably read dumb books. 

As to the latter point; yeah, it’s Star Wars. And that’s fine. But that doesn’t make Timothy Zahn a modern day Proust. 

Some are dumb. Judge for yourself

 

https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/37622758-matt-bitonti?shelf=read

 

Full disclosure i haven't read ASOIAF

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After making Arya a superbadass in Ep3., They make her abandon her hit list and becomes a normal little girl in Ep5, just so they can have a main character experience Dany's crazy.   That is such a bad writing.

Imagine those scenes with Davos taking Arya's place witnessing the slaughter.  He's perfect for it, as he loves kids and is not a fighter and we fear he actually may die unlike Arya.   Nope, lets change Arya's character and have her do it.  wth?

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What a stupid argument re. GRRM.

Writing is subjective. No one would argue Martin's anything but sloppy. But within the Fantasy genre he's a great and his early ASOIAF are widely considered among the greatest fantasy works of all time.

He's not even really comparable to Tolkien stylistically. Tolkien is the better writer, Martin the better world builder. The characters and world he has created in ASOIAF are timeless - Relateable, flawed, complex. He's incredibly adept at bringing across their emotions and internal conflict to the reader and keeps the series grounded in reality despite the fantasy elements - The historical parallels and real life themes hit home hard. 

Whatever pretentious stance you want to take on reading you can only measure a fictional book's quality by the impact they have on the reader - And there's not a lot of books that tie you up emotionally like ASOIAF does. It hasn't become a global phenomenon for nothing - If any fictional world could be so endearing then you'd see a lot more of them. 

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