What’s the difference between what Joe Douglas plan and John Idzik?

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Jethead said:

At least we seem to have dropped the pretense that the Jets are trying this year. Gonna be harder to pick well next year without a legit college season in 2020 though.

Sam is JDs big gamble. If he flops this year then it's on JD that he didn't trade Sam for another high pick and go all in.

any pretense was probably washed away when they traded adams, even though it was the right move.  and i think whether or not they say it, they're going to be figuring out if they stick with darnold or move up for another qb.  douglas will get his shot at drafting a qb if darnold does not improve.  

[FidelioJet]

33 minutes ago, JiF said:

Considering this is JD's first offseason, I'd say the difference has not yet (if it will) be realized  Coming in and cleaning up the guys mess before him isnt an uncommon place in the NFL.  Idzick as incompetent as he was, could tear down fine because that doesnt take skill.  Literally anyone can do what he was doing.  It's the next piece of building a roster that takes skill.  Pretty unfair to make that comparison when you havent seen a single JD draft pick play Football and/or how the moves he did make this offseason will play out.

 

The comparison is each after their first years.  JD is being lauded around here as if he’s already some type of genius.  

I think the OP’s point was - to date, JD hasn’t done anything more than Idzik had done at this point through his tenure.  

And I agree.

JD is clearly good at tearing down - much like Idzik was - 

We just don’t know if JD is capable of building yet.

[FidelioJet]

7 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

The first real difference is Idzik purposely tried to set Rex up to fail.  He had no prior relationship with him.  It was a true shotgun marriage Woody the idiot forced upon us all.

Douglas and Gase have a history and Gase effectively brought Douglas in.

However, I see Douglas really not spending to get free agents here and it could be setting Darnold up for a rough year.  I mean who's he throwing to on the outside??  Perriman better get healthy and stay healthy.  In that regard, this could be quite similar to Idzik's second year.  I think Douglas makes it to year 3.  The main question is do Gase and Darnold?  I think it would be crazy to give up on Darnold no matter what happens in this weird season, but I could totally see fans and media running this kid out of town prematurely.

What’s worse?

Setting up your HC to fail or your Young QB to fail?

Seems pretty clear to me that JD has set up Sam to fail.  To me, setting up your #3 overall pick QB in his 3rd year to fail is substantially worse than setting up your HC, who’s already on his way out.

 

[T0mShane]

<watches the first three minutes of The Godfather>
 

You: THIS MOVIE IS THE SAME AS GROWN-UPS 2 WTF

[sec101row23]

14 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

any pretense was probably washed away when they traded adams, even though it was the right move.  and i think whether or not they say it, they're going to be figuring out if they stick with darnold or move up for another qb.  douglas will get his shot at drafting a qb if darnold does not improve.  

You can draft all the QBs you want, if you keep surrounding them with the same s**t that has been on this roster for the last decade,  it won’t make a difference.   

[predator_05]

16 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I’ve mentioned this prior to this draft but given the situation this roster is in, JD needs to hit on more than a few draft picks at this point.   IF this team is be a legit playoff contender in a couple years he needs to have a well above average draft success rate for this draft class and next years class.  Otherwise we are looking at what, 3 more seasons of rebuild?  

 

If it's a tough gig, you have to allow them to fail. No other way. There's no quick fix. 

[predator_05]

...

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Setting up your HC to fail or your Young QB to fail?

Douglas replaced four offensive linemen and drafted a left tackle and a WR in Rounds 1 and 2. How is that setting up Darnold to fail, exactly? Because he didn’t trade for AJ Green? 

[FidelioJet]

5 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Seems like you just want the team to spend spend spend on FAs, NAME FAs and when you hit the cap fine. Signing big ticket free agents is not the way to build a team

I love this argument - it’s repeated around here like it’s fact but there’s really no logic behind it.

So, why save cap money?  What’s the point?  If you should never sign high priced FA, what are you doing with all that cap money?  Especially if you’re a team like the Jets and have no one to pay.

The only person worthy of being paid - we traded away, because we didn’t want to pay him.

 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

You can draft all the QBs you want, if you keep surrounding them with the same s**t that has been on this roster for the last decade,  it won’t make a difference.   

true, but this will be year 3 of darnold, and douglas is still a first time gm who will be given the chance to draft 'his' qb if darnold does not show enough.  of course i think darnold is a stud who just needs some help, and i'm not sure the OL will be improved enough early on for us to see real improvement over last season.  but douglas did bring in 5 new OL starters, and drafted mims.  that's a LOT of new offense in one weird offseason.  my hope is that mims and perriman are ready for the opener, but my hunch is that mims will be ready and used in certain situations while perriman's knee is more troublesome. 

still, this is the first offseason douglas had to fix anything, he seems to have done a nice job, and he got a major draft pick haul for adams.  

if the jets suck this year and get a top 3 pick, darnold is still making frustrating technical/strategic mistakes and they can move up and get lawrence i believe douglas will do it.  

[FidelioJet]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Douglas replaced four offensive linemen and drafted a left tackle and a WR in Rounds 1 and 2. How is that setting up Darnold to fail, exactly? Because he didn’t trade for AJ Green? 

Replacing bad OL with someone else’s back-ups isn’t exactly helping.  

Rookie WR’s aren’t expected to contribute a whole lot in year one.  Becton is a project that is sure to have a serious learning curve this year, especially in the passing game.  

He’s setting up Sam to fail so he can replace him next year - and his new QB will have the benefit of second year guys like Becton and Mims - prepared to take the next step.

JD looks to be building the infrastructure, so his new young QB comes into a better situation. 

I like the concept, for sure.  Smart way to build a franchise, but I also really like Sam - seems, to me, JD doesn’t.

[GreekJet]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Douglas replaced four offensive linemen and drafted a left tackle and a WR in Rounds 1 and 2. How is that setting up Darnold to fail, exactly? Because he didn’t trade for AJ Green? 

Agree 100 percent. Mike McCagnan set Sam Darnold up to fail not Joe Douglas. 
 

Losing Robby Anderson isn’t ideal, but let’s be honest here. If McCagnan gave Anderson the money he gave Enunwa the prior year this wouldn’t be an issue. 

[TuscanyTile2]

8 hours ago, GreekJet said:

Can’t help but notice the similarities 

1) Both inherited a HC they could naturally pin the blame on 

2) Both traded away an All-Pro defensive player in the prime of their careers

3) Both chose to roll over tons of cap space their first year despite the fact that their coaches desperately needed to win now to save their jobs 

4) Both signed a lot of bargain basement free agents on one year contracts (Breshad Perriman/Chaz Schillens) 

5) Both set themselves up well for year 2 with cap space and ample draft picks

6) Both had high approval ratings amongst the fan base early on 

 

Whats the difference?

1) Douglas inherited a more stable QB than Idzik (Sanchez was at the end of his rope when Idzik arrived) 

2) Douglas reports to Chris as opposed to Idzik who reported to Woody

3) Douglas seems much more comfortable talking to the media than Idzik

4) Idzik inherited a much more popular coach than Douglas did

The truth is Idzik had a good plan (just like Douglas). It was just poorly executed. At the end of the day if the Joe Douglas plan is going to work he’s going to have to draft well.

If those draft picks the next few year turn into Dee Milliner, Sheldon Richardson, Geno Smith, Calvin Pryor, and Jace Amaro  the NY Jets will be attempting another rebuild three years from now. 

Hopefully the difference is that Joe D will draft well.  For the record, I liked Idzik's approach, just not the execution.

[sec101row23]

6 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

true, but this will be year 3 of darnold, and douglas is still a first time gm who will be given the chance to draft 'his' qb if darnold does not show enough.  of course i think darnold is a stud who just needs some help, and i'm not sure the OL will be improved enough early on for us to see real improvement over last season.  but douglas did bring in 5 new OL starters, and drafted mims.  that's a LOT of new offense in one weird offseason.  my hope is that mims and perriman are ready for the opener, but my hunch is that mims will be ready and used in certain situations while perriman's knee is more troublesome. 

still, this is the first offseason douglas had to fix anything, he seems to have done a nice job, and he got a major draft pick haul for adams.  

if the jets suck this year and get a top 3 pick, darnold is still making frustrating technical/strategic mistakes and they can move up and get lawrence i believe douglas will do it.  

That’s fine, but it’s going to cost a lot of draft capital, draft capital that would be needed to fill out the other positions of need.  We would be in the same cycle, just with a different QB.   Unless Sam is just abysmal, which I doubt he will be, I’d rather build up the rest of the roster so that IF we need to move on from Sam, it’s a much better situation for the new rookie.   

[GreekJet]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Replacing bad OL with someone else’s back-ups isn’t exactly helping.  

Rookie WR’s aren’t expected to contribute a whole lot in year one.  Becton is a project that is sure to have a serious learning curve this year, especially in the passing game.  

He’s setting up Sam to fail so he can replace him next year - and his new QB will have the benefit of second year guys like Becton and Mims - prepared to take the next step.

JD looks to be building the infrastructure, so his new young QB comes into a better situation. 

I like the concept, for sure.  Smart way to build a franchise, but I also really like Sam - seems, to me, JD doesn’t.

Last offseason was the year to build around Sam with ample cap space and the #3 overall pick to leverage in a trade. Douglas was limited in what he could do in free agency as a result and actually used his two highest picks on OL and WR to help Sam. 

[rangerous]

6 hours ago, UnknownJetFan said:

JD has a brain, that is the difference. Idzik missed on all 12 draft picks in 1 draft that anyone in the world could have hit on some by just throwing darts at a board spinning with college players on it.

that may not be the case but it really underscores the difference.  idzik didn't need to be a super scout or player evaluator but he did need to know enough to hire good scouts and understand how to evaluate the draft recommendations.  in this he failed miserably.  and then he did try to launch rex and got caught up in a power struggle that ultimately cost him his job.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

That’s fine, but it’s going to cost a lot of draft capital, draft capital that would be needed to fill out the other positions of need.  We would be in the same cycle, just with a different QB.   Unless Sam is just abysmal, which I doubt he will be, I’d rather build up the rest of the roster so that IF we need to move on from Sam, it’s a much better situation for the new rookie.   

we've seen how much it costs to move from 4 to 2.  all i'm saying is, i think douglas is a guy who keeps his options open.  he knows this roster is a work in progress.  but if lawrence is truly that kind of stud, go get him.  

[EM31]

So this man comes to a fork in the road.  On the left path lies a pen, some ink and a War and peace sized stack of paper.... On the right hand path....

<turns right>

Idzik drafted poorly.

Idzik did not influence the HC decision in a way that worked out well

"Poorly" does not even begin to describe how badly we drafted under him

Other than that he was aces

[JustInFudge]

32 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I’ve mentioned this prior to this draft but given the situation this roster is in, JD needs to hit on more than a few draft picks at this point.   IF this team is be a legit playoff contender in a couple years he needs to have a well above average draft success rate for this draft class and next years class.  Otherwise we are looking at what, 3 more seasons of rebuild?  

The never ending rebuild...

You're right though, it's not just the high picks, it's the mid rounders he has to hit on and I'm not optimistic about the NFL future of Zuniga, Morgan, Clark.  We legit may never see this guys play a single down in the NFL.  So, you just have to hope he hit on Becton/Mims/Davis and to a much much lesser extent Perrine because otherwise, I'm not sure this draft moved the needle. 

The only saving grace when all of those dudes more than likely never contribute is the multiple high picks in the upcoming drafts.  Because reality is, if this was a 3 player draft/2 player draft, we're just even further behind the 8ball.  If Mims/Becton hit, it's at least a start but albeit, not a very big one.

 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Replacing bad OL with someone else’s back-ups isn’t exactly helping.  

Rookie WR’s aren’t expected to contribute a whole lot in year one.  Becton is a project that is sure to have a serious learning curve this year, especially in the passing game.  

He’s setting up Sam to fail so he can replace him next year - and his new QB will have the benefit of second year guys like Becton and Mims - prepared to take the next step.

JD looks to be building the infrastructure, so his new young QB comes into a better situation. 

I like the concept, for sure.  Smart way to build a franchise, but I also really like Sam - seems, to me, JD doesn’t.

It’s not Douglas’s fault that Darnold is heading into a contract year during a full-on rebuild. Maccagnan is the one who followed up the Darnold pick by drafting Nathan Shepard, Quinnen Williams, Parry Nickerson, and Jachai Polite. It’s not Douglas’s fault that Maccagnan chose to surround Darnold with bums like Chuma Edoga, Trevon Wesco, and Herndon (who was rarely available at UM, too). I don’t think you can look at anything Douglas has done and conclude that he wants Darnold to fail, yet. It may well be that they all think Darnold sucks, but I don’t see how kneecapping him (by not signing Robby Anderson?) helps Douglas’ career prospects. Because he wants to draft the QB from North Dakota State so bad? IMO, the logic doesn’t follow. Selfishly, Douglas’ best path forward is to prop Darnold up as much as humanly possible and, if he tanks, replace him with a capable vet. It could well be that Douglas is watching the Eagles franchise dealing with the fallout of going all-in on Carson Wentz, who kinda sucks, and how they painted themselves into a corner with him. Could be that Douglas is leaving himself a little breathing room in the event Darnold remains meh or continues his weird trips to IR. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

NFL future of Zuniga, Morgan, Clark

I can see Zuniga washing out because of injuries, but Clark and Morgan seem like pretty solid prospects

[JustInFudge]

33 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The comparison is each after their first years.  JD is being lauded around here as if he’s already some type of genius.  

I think the OP’s point was - to date, JD hasn’t done anything more than Idzik had done at this point through his tenure.  

And I agree.

JD is clearly good at tearing down - much like Idzik was - 

We just don’t know if JD is capable of building yet.

If the comparison was after their first year, then there would be no comparison because JD didnt get a draft his first year.  To date, JD hasnt done anything more than Idzick because you've literally never seen a single pick or any of his FA's of priority play Football.

In reality, it's a totally meaningless comparison without seeing a single down off Football be played with JD having an entire offseason.

 

 

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s not Douglas’s fault that Darnold is heading into a contract year during a full-on rebuild. Maccagnan is the one who followed up the Darnold pick by drafting Nathan Shepard, Quinnen Williams, Parry Nickerson, and Jachai Polite. It’s not Douglas’s fault that Maccagnan chose to surround Darnold with bums like Chuma Edoga, Trevon Wesco, and Herndon (who was rarely available at UM, too). I don’t think you can look at anything Douglas has done and conclude that he wants Darnold to fail, yet. It may well be that they all think Darnold sucks, but I don’t see how kneecapping him (by not signing Robby Anderson?) helps Douglas’ career prospects. Because he wants to draft the QB from North Dakota State so bad? IMO, the logic doesn’t follow. Selfishly, Douglas’ best path forward is to prop Darnold up as much as humanly possible and, if he tanks, replace him with a capable vet. It could well be that Douglas is watching the Eagles franchise dealing with the fallout of going all-in on Carson Wentz, who kinda sucks, and how they painted themselves into a corner with him. Could be that Douglas is leaving himself a little breathing room in the event Darnold remains meh or continues his weird trips to IR. 

with the premise that every gm looks to keep their jobs as long as possible, douglas sees it like this:  1) he's got a 6 yr contract; 2) he inherited darnold who, even if he doesn't 'pan out' as a franchise qb, has major skills and is worth developing; 3) he traded adams for major draft capital which can really help restock the talent, and 4) every gm gets to draft his own qb, so douglas can, if he wants, move up in 2021 or 2022 and get his guy to develop, which can buy him more time.  

as for the now, he replaced all 5 OL positions, which is more or less unheard of in one offseason.  as i see it the only thing douglas didn't do to help darnold right now is to keep anderson.  but from a douglas self-preservation standpoint he's set himself up nicely in the short and longer terms.  if the offense improves, it's douglas who gets the credit.  if the offense sputters again, well, he tried to fix the OL, he didn't draft darnold and if he trades up for someone like lawrence and that guy comes into a better situation with a better OL and weapons and succeeds we'll all sit here writing douglas' praises.  

[GreekJet]

7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

we've seen how much it costs to move from 4 to 2.  all i'm saying is, i think douglas is a guy who keeps his options open.  he knows this roster is a work in progress.  but if lawrence is truly that kind of stud, go get him.  

This Trevor Lawrence stuff is going to be nauseating this year. $100 says one of these pigheaded Jets beat writers publishes a Lawrence to Jets piece after a week 1 loss. 

[chirorob]

Idzik had a good plan.   He just couldn't draft to save his life.

Hopefully JD can draft 

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I can see Zuniga washing out because of injuries, but Clark and Morgan seem like pretty solid prospects

Fair, just seemed like opportunities to help the roster structure a little more but certainly both had merits worth drafting.

 

[kelly]

..idzik had a PLAN  ?   

[sec101row23]

20 minutes ago, JiF said:

The never ending rebuild...

You're right though, it's not just the high picks, it's the mid rounders he has to hit on and I'm not optimistic about the NFL future of Zuniga, Morgan, Clark.  We legit may never see this guys play a single down in the NFL.  So, you just have to hope he hit on Becton/Mims/Davis and to a much much lesser extent Perrine because otherwise, I'm not sure this draft moved the needle. 

The only saving grace when all of those dudes more than likely never contribute is the multiple high picks in the upcoming drafts.  Because reality is, if this was a 3 player draft/2 player draft, we're just even further behind the 8ball.  If Mims/Becton hit, it's at least a start but albeit, not a very big one.

 

Agreed.   We always talk about this pre draft, what will move the needle for this franchise.  At some point you need a draft class to show up and have guys who look the part from day one.  I’m not saying they’re finished products by any means, but you need to see something that leads you to believe they are part of the solution and start contributing early on.  Like you said, with most of this draft class injured we are probably not going to see much from it this year, it’s bad enough there won’t be enough wins, at least we could have seen this draft class play and get experience, but that’s not looking great right now. 

[LIJetsFan]

8 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

Let's compare the worst gm in the history of the Jets to a guy who just completed his first free agency and nfl draft during a f-ing pandemic. Give Joe a fair shake for christ sakes.

Err, no, we're talking about Idzik in this thread, not Mac  

[Gastineau Lives]

9 hours ago, GreekJet said:

Can’t help but notice the similarities 

1) Both inherited a HC they could naturally pin the blame on 

2) Both traded away an All-Pro defensive player in the prime of their careers

3) Both chose to roll over tons of cap space their first year despite the fact that their coaches desperately needed to win now to save their jobs 

4) Both signed a lot of bargain basement free agents on one year contracts (Breshad Perriman/Chaz Schillens) 

5) Both set themselves up well for year 2 with cap space and ample draft picks

6) Both had high approval ratings amongst the fan base early on 

 

Whats the difference?

1) Douglas inherited a more stable QB than Idzik (Sanchez was at the end of his rope when Idzik arrived) 

2) Douglas reports to Chris as opposed to Idzik who reported to Woody

3) Douglas seems much more comfortable talking to the media than Idzik

4) Idzik inherited a much more popular coach than Douglas did

The truth is Idzik had a good plan (just like Douglas). It was just poorly executed. At the end of the day if the Joe Douglas plan is going to work he’s going to have to draft well.

If those draft picks the next few year turn into Dee Milliner, Sheldon Richardson, Geno Smith, Calvin Pryor, and Jace Amaro  the NY Jets will be attempting another rebuild three years from now. 

@T0mShane izdik

[The Crusher]

31 minutes ago, JiF said:

If the comparison was after their first year, then there would be no comparison because JD didnt get a draft his first year.  To date, JD hasnt done anything more than Idzick because you've literally never seen a single pick or any of his FA's of priority play Football.

In reality, it's a totally meaningless comparison without seeing a single down off Football be played with JD having an entire offseason.

 

 

It’s like comparing surfers when one has had 20 waves and the other one just got his board waxed. 

[southparkcpa]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

But Idzik was responsible for the immortal Geno Smith

At least Idzik drafted a QB early....  Geno was by all accounts a first rounder late and we got him in the second.  He was a bust BUT MACC sat pat with journeymen who have never seena playoff game.  Geno's rookie year he has some ability....  and well , his lack of maturity, took over.  I think Idzik was a BAD GM but Mac was worse, by a "smidge".

 

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Douglas replaced four offensive linemen and drafted a left tackle and a WR in Rounds 1 and 2. How is that setting up Darnold to fail, exactly? Because he didn’t trade for AJ Green? 

Dude, if we would have got Lynn Swann in his prime there would be Jets fans upset that it wasn't Michael Irvin.  Some people are just prone to pissing in cornflakes.

[sec101row23]

10 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

At least Idzik drafted a QB early....  Geno was by all accounts a first rounder late and we got him in the second.  He was a bust BUT MACC sat pat with journeymen who have never seena playoff game.  Geno's rookie year he has some ability....  and well , his lack of maturity, took over.  I think Idzik was a BAD GM but Mac was worse, by a "smidge".

 

I think it’s way more than a smidge.  Maccagnan presided over 5 draft classes and was abysmal.  Just the sheer volume of failed picks and contracts makes Maccagnan far and away the worst GM this franchise has ever had.  I don’t even think it’s close.  

[Integrity28]

Joe Douglas doesn’t have Rex overriding his picks and backstabbing him to the boss?

Jojes aside, plans are nothing without execution.