Joe Namath Vs Darelle Revis

[NYJ1]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Recently? Brick. Played every game. Was good his whole career.

What a foolish claim. Brick wasn't even the best player on the OL. Nick Mangold was a much better player. Stop making assertions about things you clearly do not know lol

[Biggs]

30 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Football fans need to realize that unlike baseball, the game has changed.  QB play is different today, the rules are different today.  Namath would throw for 5,000 yards today as opposed to 4,000.  Rules are completely different.  From the hash marks, to being able to use you hands on the OL, from taking away the downfield chuck from a db and the physical pounding allowed back in the day.  

Look at those who played in his era.  Bob Giese threw for 2400 yards once! the rest of his career youre looking at 2,000 yard passing seasons.  D Lamonica, the "Mad Bomber"?  3300 yards once, 3K 3xs, the rest 2K.  L Dawson, never had a 3K season.  It goes on and on, you get the point.  These are all HOF QBs, who deserve it.  But their numbers cant be compared to the wide open, reivnented NFL

In case you missed it baseball has changed.  Starting pitchers actually pitched complete games.  Seaver, who was the most dominate NY athlete in pro-sports during that era actually went 10 or 11 innings.   Everything in sports has changed.

FYI Sonny Jurgensen was doing what Namath did in the AFL in the NFL in the early 60's only with more TD's and less INT's.  

[Savage69]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Johnny Sample, he used to come to our tailgate in the 90's.  Was a nice guy, had lots of great stories about his days with the Jets, about Joe, who he spoke highly of in every way.

Sample was a key player on that SB team.  He wasnt Revis though

Sample's first year in the League was with Weeb and the Champion Colts his last year was with Weeb and the Champion Jets.. Great way to start and finish a career.. 

[NYJ1]

12 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

FUKK Revis. 2 holdouts, always him first.
 

GREAT player, bigger ego. 

Namath may have banged Raquel Welch  THAT puts him number one   

 

Raquel Welch gave more rides than Greyhound. Banging that slut wasn't any special feat....

[southparkcpa]

5 minutes ago, Biggs said:

In case you missed it baseball has changed.  Starting pitchers actually pitched complete games.  Seaver, who was the most dominate NY athlete in pro-sports during that era actually went 10 or 11 innings.   Everything in sports has changed.

FYI Sonny Jurgensen was doing what Namath did in the AFL in the NFL in the early 60's only with more TD's and less INT's.  

I’m not a METS fan but would put Seaver up there with Namath.  

[Jet Nut]

37 minutes ago, Warfish said:

We understand that.

Bob Griece (HOF) - 14 seasons, 7x Playoff Seasons, 8x Pro Bowls, 2x Super Bowl Wins, 1x Super Bowl Loss, 92-56-3 record as a starter, 56.2% Comp., 192 TD to 172 INT.

Len Dawson (HOF) - 19 Seasons, 5x Playoff Seasons, 7x Pro Bowls, 1x Super Bowl Win, 1x AFL Title Win, 94-57-8 record as a starter, 57.1% Comp, 239 TD to 183 INT.

Daryle Lamonica (Not a HOF'er btw) - 12 Seasons, 5x Pro Bowls, 9x Playoff Seasons, 1x Super Bowl Loss, 2x AFL Title Win, 66-16-6 record as a Starter, 49.5% Comp., 164 TD to 138 INT

--------------------

Joe Namath - 13 Seasons, 2x Playoff Seasons, 5x Pro Bowls, 1x Super Bowl Win, 63-63-4 record as a starter, 50.1% Comp, 173 TD to 220 INT.

A Like-to-like comparison of similar era players, players you chose, and Namath is by far the worst of this group.  It's not even that close.  

The one player you listed that Namath is closest to is Lamonica, who ISN'T a HOF'er! 

This, despite having a vastly better win/loss record than Namath, a Super Bowl loss vs. a Win but 2x AFL Titles Namath doesn't have, a materially better TD to INT record than Namath, and a spectacular 9 or 12 seasons leading his team to the postseason.

Now we're spinning.  This wasnt a referendum on playoffs, which is a team stat as are SBs, pro bowls or other nonsense.  I brought up their numbers to illustrate the difference in todays game from the game played before all the rule changes to make the game more offensive.  That QBs regularly throwing for 4500 yards doesnt make todays QB like a Tannehill 2xs better than Griese.  

But you knew what I was pointing out.  I would hope

 

[Jethead]

My first sports hero was Mickey Mantle. Joe was my second. Neither is in the conversation for his sport's GOAT. Both are my 2 GOATs.

[JetsMetsRangers]

31 minutes ago, chirorob said:

You realize Klecko had a 20 sack season while also dominating the run game.  They just didnt count sacks for another year or 2.

Not sure if Klecko had the 20 sack season, i think it was Gastineau but Klecko was selected ALL PRO at 3 different positions and a dominant player..........

[Matt39]

31 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

What a foolish claim. Brick wasn't even the best player on the OL. Nick Mangold was a much better player. Stop making assertions about things you clearly do not know lol

Yeah Brick stunk.

[Jet Nut]

31 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I loved Namath.  He shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Koufax.  There is no comparative reference.  Koufax was actually the greatest for a few years compared to HOF pitchers who were great.  Namath wasn't.  

 

His point was they both were icons who had careers shortened by injuries at a time most fans weren't around for.

Youre still missing the point

[Matt39]

34 minutes ago, chirorob said:

You realize Klecko had a 20 sack season while also dominating the run game.  They just didnt count sacks for another year or 2.

For sure. Klecko was a beast. 

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Now we're spinning.

By "spinning" I presume you mean "posting factual resumes of on-field performance and production taken directly from Pro Football Reference"?

/shrug.

I honestly don't care enough to continue to argue this point with you Nut (or with anyone else).  I've long known Namath was vastly over-rated on-field by Jets Fans. 

I like Joe, glad he's in our history.  I'm glad he won SBIII.  I'm glad for very old guys like YOU Nut. 

You have something I'm not sure I'll ever get in my lifetime.  A Jets Super Bowl win.

Beyond that, think of him however you wish.  And I'll do the same.

 

[BornJetsFan1983]

14 hours ago, DepressedJetsFan23 said:

I have to admit that I have never seen Joe Namath play as I am a relatively young fan (21). I also fully acknowledge that Joe Namath IMO is the greatest "Jet" of all time due to the super bowl, only 4000 yard season, the guarantee, probably still the face of franchise, and many other accolades.  But as good as Joe Namath was, at Revis's respective position, was he better at his job than Namath was at his? There is a real argument to be made Revis is a top three CB of all time and definitely top 5. As well as his 2009 campaign being the best season from a cornerback to ever play.  Nobody would look at Namath in that tier of QB's. So In short what I am asking is, Although Namath was the greatest "Jet" of all time, Was Revis the greatest "player"?

I'm a younger fan that never really saw joe play other than highlights and the Superbowl. The game was alot diff back then and Joe was a qb at a time when most people just handed the ball off. 

[Biggs]

12 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

His point was they both were icons who had careers shortened by injuries at a time most fans weren't around for.

Youre still missing the point

Koufax wasn't just an icon.  He was in the argument and still is as the greatest starting pitcher in baseball history. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

At a time when you could basically defendrs coukd destroy qbs ,, not like today that encourage passing...

The idea that joe wasn't the greatest is crazy. It's like george washington. Today most people know he was the greatest president but don't really know why, dude was a rockstar. Pioneer and did it when no one else was capable of doing it.

Just like Joe. Everyone who played back then would tell you Joe was the best.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

You take a look at the impact Ronde Barber had, the stats he racked up as a DB are insane. And he's still waiting on Canton. Ty Law somehow got in over him. The DB grades are weird. Revis prime was short and his "impact" stats are really low...he'll probably eventually got in, but eh..2009 was great...there were guys more impactful and better though. Plus the way his career ended just mailing it in. He could have been much more.

I don't agree that stats are the end-all gauge for a DB's effectiveness. Ultimately the best coverage possible also makes it impossible to rack up any stats.

Revis may have been a me-first douche, but he was once an absolutely unbelievable player. He had nowhere near Barber's longevity, but if I'm looking for a window for a SB win I'm taking the best player I can get 10x out of 10 over the lesser player who was very good for longer. It's like the difference between Curtis Martin and Earl Campbell. 

Also the overall defense Barber played on was a bit better in terms of individual personnel than anything the Jets had, even as a #1 or top 5 defense. That DL saw to it he didn't have to hold coverage as long as Revis. The individual talent was just beyond reason. Sapp, Rice, Brooks, Lynch, Quarles, Booger, Kelly, D.Abraham, and more (with Barber as a NB). The worst liabilities on that defense were Dexter Jackson & Marcus Jones ffs. All in their primes; I'm not sure the '09 Jets had a DLman under 30, and a year later just Mike DeVito replacing Marques Douglas, and put Revis 1-on-1 with whomever was the biggest receiving threat the opposition had, rather than sticking to a supporting role or just the same side of the field regardless of opposition.

Not to take too much away from Barber; he was great, but he was also a NB in a cover-2 defense who wasn't manning up on the game's great WRs week after week. 

[NYJ1]

13 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Yeah Brick stunk.

I didn't say he stunk. Now you're just being a sore loser. Brick was a solid player that has a lengthy career and even made a few pro bowls. With that said, he wasn't even the best player on the team for all of his career. Mangold was a much better player. But Revis was still, by far and away the very best player the Jets ever had. Stop posting an opinion that exposes you for how little you know....

[jago]

Joe was the most physically gifted and mobile QB in college. i would contend he could execute everything the zach wilson has shown. then his knee got shredded and he entered the pro game already a virtual cripple and still set records with a bullseye on him in a more brutal game and worst league conditions at shea.
recall they didn’t play home games until like Halloween.
he was a phenomenon beyond his game too and the reason to have a hof as a cultural icon and perhaps the most famous athlete of the era.

[Biggs]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

By "spinning" I presume you mean "posting factual resumes of on-field performance and production taken directly from Pro Football Reference"?

/shrug.

I honestly don't care enough to continue to argue this point with you Nut (or with anyone else).  I've long known Namath was vastly over-rated on-field by Jets Fans. 

I like Joe, glad he's in our history.  I'm glad he won SBIII.  I'm glad for very old guys like YOU Nut. 

You have something I'm not sure I'll ever get in my lifetime.  A Jets Super Bowl win.

Beyond that, think of him however you wish.  And I'll do the same.

 

You have to have some context.  Most of us (except Savage) were young teenagers when Namath hit the scene.  I was being taken to Giant games at Yankee stadium at the time Namath showed up at shea and on channel 4 NBC.  NBC picked up the AFL games and made Namath the star.  The Giants were a bore fest.  Defense and run the ball.  Namath even with his bad knees had this fast deep drop and lightning fast release.  He's throws down the field were effortless and there was a grace to his game that very few guys had.   In his own way he was like Gale Sayers running the ball, throwing the ball.  We idolized him and he delivered the big win.   

What is also true is those Jets teams had great coaching and great players on both sides of the ball.  The AFL had some really good teams and players and you also had guys like Stram and Al Davis who were revolutionary in the way they were innovating the game.  It was built for TV and Namath was the star of the show.   In many ways the AFL of that era was the forerunner of today's NFL even more than the actual NFL was at the time.   Namath was over rated as a pro-QB but that really wasn't his job.  He was the star of the weekly TV series, Pro Football that we all watch today.

[chirorob]

31 minutes ago, JetsMetsRangers said:

Not sure if Klecko had the 20 sack season, i think it was Gastineau but Klecko was selected ALL PRO at 3 different positions and a dominant player..........

Gastineau had a 22 sack season, which set the record.

Klecko had an "unofficial" 20 sack season just a year or 2 before they started counting sacks as an official stat.

[Biggs]

4 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Gastineau had a 22 sack season, which set the record.

Klecko had an "unofficial" 20 sack season just a year or 2 before they started counting sacks as an official stat.

I believe, according to the Jets site that Gerry Philbin had 19 sacks in the 14 game 68 season.  Unofficial of course. 

[DetroitRed]

18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't agree that stats are the end-all gauge for a DB's effectiveness. Ultimately the best coverage possible also makes it impossible to rack up any stats.

Revis may have been a me-first douche, but he was once an absolutely unbelievable player. He had nowhere near Barber's longevity, but if I'm looking for a window for a SB win I'm taking the best player I can get 10x out of 10 over the lesser player who was very good for longer. It's like the difference between Curtis Martin and Earl Campbell. 

Also the overall defense Barber played on was a bit better in terms of individual personnel than anything the Jets had, even as a #1 or top 5 defense. That DL saw to it he didn't have to hold coverage as long as Revis. The individual talent was just beyond reason. Sapp, Rice, Brooks, Lynch, Quarles, Booger, Kelly, D.Abraham, and more (with Barber as a NB). The worst liabilities on that defense were Dexter Jackson & Marcus Jones ffs. All in their primes; I'm not sure the '09 Jets had a DLman under 30, and a year later just Mike DeVito replacing Marques Douglas, and put Revis 1-on-1 with whomever was the biggest receiving threat the opposition had, rather than sticking to a supporting role or just the same side of the field regardless of opposition.

Not to take too much away from Barber; he was great, but he was also a NB in a cover-2 defense who wasn't manning up on the game's great WRs week after week. 

At his peek, Revis was better at CB than anyone else was at their position. Including Brady.  Revis shut down Brady to Moss. Both of those guys knew their connection was off the menu vs Revis.

[Warfish]

13 minutes ago, Biggs said:

You have to have some context.  Most of us (except Savage) were young teenagers when Namath hit the scene.  I was being taken to Giant games at Yankee stadium at the time Namath showed up at shea and on channel 4 NBC.  NBC picked up the AFL games and made Namath the star.  The Giants were a bore fest.  Defense and run the ball.  Namath even with his bad knees had this fast deep drop and lightning fast release.  He's throws down the field were effortless and there was a grace to his game that very few guys had.   In his own way he was like Gale Sayers running the ball, throwing the ball.  We idolized him and he delivered the big win.   

What is also true is those Jets teams had great coaching and great players on both sides of the ball.  The AFL had some really good teams and players and you also had guys like Stram and Al Davis who were revolutionary in the way they were innovating the game.  It was built for TV and Namath was the star of the show.   In many ways the AFL of that era was the forerunner of today's NFL even more than the actual NFL was at the time.   Namath was over rated as a pro-QB but that really wasn't his job.  He was the star of the weekly TV series, Pro Football that we all watch today.

We love most that which we love when young.  I get it.

I still think Al Toon was one of the greatest WR's I ever saw.  And that Ken O'Brien was a good QB, lol.

I freely admit, I over-rate mid-80's Jets.  Because that was "my" SBIII in my youth.  

[Jet2020]

13 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

FUKK Revis. 2 holdouts, always him first.
 

GREAT player, bigger ego. 

Namath may have banged Raquel Welch  THAT puts him number one   

 

He tried his best with Suzy Kolber...on live tv. 

[Biggs]

Just now, Warfish said:

We love most that which we love when young.  I get it.

I still think Al Toon was one of the greatest WR's I ever saw.  And that Ken O'Brien was a good QB, lol.

I freely admit, I over-rate mid-80's Jets.  Because that was "my" SBIII in my youth.  

I'm in your camp on Toon.  I loved Sauer and Maynard but for my money Toon was the best of the best.  He also had that quality of being a graceful player who was beautiful to watch in a game were WR were routinely crushed.  Toon was absolutely great.  

Kenny was a good QB.  I could never give him his due because we passed on Marino.  That blew my mind and still does.  

[Savage69]

36 minutes ago, Warfish said:

By "spinning" I presume you mean "posting factual resumes of on-field performance and production taken directly from Pro Football Reference"?

/shrug.

I honestly don't care enough to continue to argue this point with you Nut (or with anyone else).  I've long known Namath was vastly over-rated on-field by Jets Fans. 

I like Joe, glad he's in our history.  I'm glad he won SBIII.  I'm glad for very old guys like YOU Nut. 

You have something I'm not sure I'll ever get in my lifetime.  A Jets Super Bowl win.

Beyond that, think of him however you wish.  And I'll do the same.

 

Guys your generation liked Kenny who never won a playoff game never had a rushing td and played on a pretty stacked team.. I never forgave the Jets for not taking Marino..

[Matt39]

32 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't agree that stats are the end-all gauge for a DB's effectiveness. Ultimately the best coverage possible also makes it impossible to rack up any stats.

Revis may have been a me-first douche, but he was once an absolutely unbelievable player. He had nowhere near Barber's longevity, but if I'm looking for a window for a SB win I'm taking the best player I can get 10x out of 10 over the lesser player who was very good for longer. It's like the difference between Curtis Martin and Earl Campbell. 

Also the overall defense Barber played on was a bit better in terms of individual personnel than anything the Jets had, even as a #1 or top 5 defense. That DL saw to it he didn't have to hold coverage as long as Revis. The individual talent was just beyond reason. Sapp, Rice, Brooks, Lynch, Quarles, Booger, Kelly, D.Abraham, and more (with Barber as a NB). The worst liabilities on that defense were Dexter Jackson & Marcus Jones ffs. All in their primes; I'm not sure the '09 Jets had a DLman under 30, and a year later just Mike DeVito replacing Marques Douglas, and put Revis 1-on-1 with whomever was the biggest receiving threat the opposition had, rather than sticking to a supporting role or just the same side of the field regardless of opposition.

Not to take too much away from Barber; he was great, but he was also a NB in a cover-2 defense who wasn't manning up on the game's great WRs week after week. 

With the importance of turnovers and negative plays...I just don’t see how Barber isn’t recognize more. I’d rather the DB making negative tackles, forcing fumbles, pick 6’s and INts over the strict cover guy. 

[Jet2020]

Imagine what the QBs would be passing for in 18 game seasons in 2033, possibly 7000+ yards as the highest (Prescott was on pace for a 6k season last year in a 16 game season).

Now imagine a QB passing for 7000 yards THIS season. That’s what Joe Namath did in 1967. His 4k yard season in 1967 was equivalent to 7k season today. It wasn’t even remotely close. NFL QBs took 12 more years and 16 game seasons to reach that again. Namath did it in 14 games, which equates to 4500+ yards in a 16 game season, which would put him in pro bowl category even with today’s QB stats. 50+ years later. It’s insane to say the least and an outlier of a season. 

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Now we're spinning.  This wasnt a referendum on playoffs, which is a team stat as are SBs, pro bowls or other nonsense.  I brought up their numbers to illustrate the difference in todays game from the game played before all the rule changes to make the game more offensive.  That QBs regularly throwing for 4500 yards doesnt make todays QB like a Tannehill 2xs better than Griese.  

But you knew what I was pointing out.  I would hope

 

It's a recency bias by kids that never saw him play plus a weird obsession to hate and dump on the greatest Jet ever.

[GandWFan]

6 minutes ago, jago said:

Joe was the most physically gifted and mobile QB in college. i would contend he could execute everything the zach wilson has shown. then his knee got shredded and he entered the pro game already a virtual cripple and still set records with a bullseye on him in a more brutal game and worst league conditions at shea.
recall they didn’t play home games until like Halloween.
he was a phenomenon beyond his game too and the reason to have a hof as a cultural icon and perhaps the most famous athlete of the era.

And Shea, a baseball stadium, still had a dirt infield.  No removable turf that could be changed out for football or baseball.

As someone mentioned, the NFL game and the AFL game were so different back then.  The NFL was a run first, 3 yards and a cloud of dust league.  The Packers, who won 5 championships during the 60s, were the epitome of an NFL team.  What were they known for?  The Packer Sweep.  A running play. 

The AFL was a wide open (for the time) passing league.  Fun to watch.  Why I love the Jets over the Giants.

Joe was the face of the new upstart league.  There were others... Len Dawson, Daryle Lamonica; but Joe Namath embodies the new league.  Big talent with BIG ATITUDE.  Fit right in in the late 60s.  Then the guarantee... And backing it up...  

Nothing better in sports...

For you young people who never knew this time, I don't know how you are Jets fans.  I got hooked when all sports in NY were magical.

Joe Namath, Tom Seaver, Willis Reed.  New York was on the top of the sports world.

You guys have know only suffering.  The best you saw was the brief Parcells era, Vinny blowing out his achilles,  Chad blowing up his shoulder, Favre the mercenary starting 8-1 then keeping his pectoral injury a secret and missing the playoffs.  And the top of the mountain... the 2 Sanchez seasons that were good under Rex.  I admit, that was a good run, but ultimately disapointing.

No wonder you are bitter about the past.  I don't blame you.  You have my condolences.

 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

By "spinning" I presume you mean "posting factual resumes of on-field performance and production taken directly from Pro Football Reference"?

/shrug.

I honestly don't care enough to continue to argue this point with you Nut (or with anyone else).  I've long known Namath was vastly over-rated on-field by Jets Fans. 

I like Joe, glad he's in our history.  I'm glad he won SBIII.  I'm glad for very old guys like YOU Nut. 

You have something I'm not sure I'll ever get in my lifetime.  A Jets Super Bowl win.

Beyond that, think of him however you wish.  And I'll do the same.

 

Its amazing what the simple use of numbers to spotlight the difference from 1960s football to 2020 football.  No one was "posting factual resumes of on-field performance and production taken directly from Pro Football Reference" for any other reason than that.

Theres no argument to be had.  The illustration works

 

[Jet Nut]

52 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Koufax wasn't just an icon.  He was in the argument and still is as the greatest starting pitcher in baseball history. 

We get this.

It still has nothing to do with the conversation

 

[GandWFan]

43 minutes ago, Biggs said:

You have to have some context.  Most of us (except Savage) were young teenagers when Namath hit the scene.  I was being taken to Giant games at Yankee stadium at the time Namath showed up at shea and on channel 4 NBC.  NBC picked up the AFL games and made Namath the star.  The Giants were a bore fest.  Defense and run the ball.  Namath even with his bad knees had this fast deep drop and lightning fast release.  He's throws down the field were effortless and there was a grace to his game that very few guys had.   In his own way he was like Gale Sayers running the ball, throwing the ball.  We idolized him and he delivered the big win.   

What is also true is those Jets teams had great coaching and great players on both sides of the ball.  The AFL had some really good teams and players and you also had guys like Stram and Al Davis who were revolutionary in the way they were innovating the game.  It was built for TV and Namath was the star of the show.   In many ways the AFL of that era was the forerunner of today's NFL even more than the actual NFL was at the time.   Namath was over rated as a pro-QB but that really wasn't his job.  He was the star of the weekly TV series, Pro Football that we all watch today.

VERY well said.  I could not agree more.

Urban legend (probably not true).  It was said that you could place a handkerchief (a cloth tissue for you youngsters) anywhere on the field and Joe could hit it.  Amazing are talent.  Quick release and strong arm.  

[Biggs]

6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

We get this.

It still has nothing to do with the conversation

 

By we you mean you.  Have a nice day.  ?

[JetsMetsRangers]

48 minutes ago, jago said:

Joe was the most physically gifted and mobile QB in college. i would contend he could execute everything the zach wilson has shown. then his knee got shredded and he entered the pro game already a virtual cripple and still set records with a bullseye on him in a more brutal game and worst league conditions at shea.
recall they didn’t play home games until like Halloween.
he was a phenomenon beyond his game too and the reason to have a hof as a cultural icon and perhaps the most famous athlete of the era.

Exactly, he also played in an era where you could bludgeon the QB and not get a penalty and where DB's could mug the receiver all over the field and played home games in a wind tunnel.........