the genius that is joe

[kmnj]

Joe is a poor gm as shown by his poor record but what he is a genius at is protecting his job-every year there is a " reason" why joe needs another year and" now is not the time to replace him" even though his record sucks- 

his team sucks, his total record as a gm sucks  but nope you cant get rid of him because of Arod. We bought into Arod so we have to  keep Joe and Saleh-who bought into Arod the same guy that we cant get rid of because of Arod-pure genius-

it is always something,  i t was not joe it was gase who ran the draft, hey we have a new qb he needs time, he we have a new coach, we have a new oc, we have a new 40 year old qb, our 40 year old qb is hurt but we have to keep Joe because Joe brought in Arod.

I suspect next year he fires Saleh hires a new coach and we cant fire Joe then because his new coach needs time to get his plan in place-and who will come here with new gm we have to keep Joe....years from now we will be talking about how Joe continues to lose at historical rates but we cant fire Joe it is not the time....

 

 

 

 

 

[GangGreened]

Both Saleh and Douglas will be wrapping up their Jets careers in a little over a years time. Have to let it play out.

[CanadienJetsFan]

1 minute ago, GangGreened said:

Both Saleh and Douglas will be wrapping up their Jets careers in a little over a years time. Have to let it play out.

What are you talking about? Saleh said yesterday that Rodgers plans to play till he's about 50. So, we're stuck with them for a long time. 

Let's hope SOME winning happens.

[bitonti]

the biggest con was the multi year rebuild 

other teams turn it around in 2 or 3 years

Joe sold ownership and fans that he needed 5 or 6 years to clear out all the bad Mac and Idzik contracts 

completely ludicrous

there's no such thing as a multi year rebuild in a league where 15-20 percent of the roster churns every year and the players average career is less than 3 years

there's no rebuilding there's only reloading

now aaron says they just need to reload it's like yeah they could have been doing that the whole time 

and by the way, now Joe Douglas has saddled this franchise with the worst most toxic contract of them all, Aaron's. Worse than anything Mac or Idzik did as it goes

and he has a worse w-l record than those two bums, given longer time

OP is correct Joe Douglas is amazing at keeping his job. everything else he's meh at 

[varjet]

I think the practically logical answer is to keep Rodgers, JD, Saleh and Hackett in 2024 and see what they can do. 

If it looks good and AR8 commits to coming back in 2025 (for basically free), JD, Saleh and Hackett can get 2 year extensions.  The assumption is that is one more year of AR8, and then one year of severance, which is the NFL market.  Someone else takes over as GM and HC in 2026.  Hopefully AR8 can retire after June 1 2026 to spread his cap hit over 2 years.  

[RedBeardedSavage]

I get the hate. Sundays suck these days. 

And after an offseason of hype, it’s even worse.

But, one of the two major problems with this team is quarterback play. 

We’re all aware that Rodgers’ biggest character flaw is ego. But in this case, it could very well serve us. The dude does not want to exit the league like this. He’ll come back with his silly dragon tattoo and be hell-bent on “proving all the haters wrong”. 

The second issue is the offensive line. But at least the draft is full of good tackles this year, and the Becky experiment has run its course. 

Hopefully we tank the rest of the season, pickup the Notre Dame or Penn State tackle in the draft, throw every available resource at offensive lineman via trades/free agency. 

This team, with Rodgers and just an average offensive line, will be fun to watch next year. The nightmare that was this season is almost over.

[THE BARON]

43 minutes ago, GangGreened said:

Both Saleh and Douglas will be wrapping up their Jets careers in a little over a years time. Have to let it play out.

If Rodgers holds up, they wont be gone for 2025.  That is stipulated on JD fixing the offensive line.  Getting one of the better OT's in FA, drafting Joe Alt AND finding at least one very good starter at the Guard spot. 

[Beerfish]

Fora gm it all comes down to 'do you hit often enough' in your drafts.   Other things also factor in of course but for the most part do you dart well or not?

[kmnj]

18 minutes ago, varjet said:

I think the practically logical answer is to keep Rodgers, JD, Saleh and Hackett in 2024 and see what they can do. 

If it looks good and AR8 commits to coming back in 2025 (for basically free), JD, Saleh and Hackett can get 2 year extensions.  The assumption is that is one more year of AR8, and then one year of severance, which is the NFL market.  Someone else takes over as GM and HC in 2026.  Hopefully AR8 can retire after June 1 2026 to spread his cap hit over 2 years.  

that is the genius of Joe-he bought himself another two years by bringing in Arod -results or no results it does not matter-if arod gets hurt week one next year do we put the franchise on hold again for another year.......does joe get a pass yet again.....

[doitny]

15 minutes ago, varjet said:

I think the practically logical answer is to keep Rodgers, JD, Saleh and Hackett in 2024 and see what they can do. 

If it looks good and AR8 commits to coming back in 2025 (for basically free), JD, Saleh and Hackett can get 2 year extensions.  The assumption is that is one more year of AR8, and then one year of severance, which is the NFL market.  Someone else takes over as GM and HC in 2026.  Hopefully AR8 can retire after June 1 2026 to spread his cap hit over 2 years.  

i got news for you, if we make the playoffs next year there getting more than 2 year extensions. besides if you give them one more year after AR leaves then they will be picking the new QB. your going to make them pick him and then fire everyone and make the kid have 2 of everything in 2 years? 

[kmnj]

4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Fora gm it all comes down to 'do you hit often enough' in your drafts.   Other things also factor in of course but for the most part do you dart well or not?

what it comes down to is does your team win games.... Joe's teams do not win -forget about rings they dont even produce winning records but there is ALWAYS a built in excuse for Joe.

 

 

[GangGreened]

15 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

If Rodgers holds up, they wont be gone for 2025.  That is stipulated on JD fixing the offensive line.  Drafting getting one of the better OT's in FA, drafting Joe Alt AND finding at least one very good starter at the Guard spot. 

Wake me up when Joe Douglas actually accomplishes this. He’s proven over 4 years he can’t build a line.

I really think the only way they survive is if Rodgers somehow returns to MVP form. He’s going to have to be vastly better than he was in 2022, if he stays healthy.

[THE BARON]

15 minutes ago, GangGreened said:

Wake me up when Joe Douglas actually accomplishes this. He’s proven over 4 years he can’t build a line.

If Joe D reads this very post, there may be hope that he can build a line this off season.

Instructions For Joe D.

1. Don't be enamored with a prospect that you would label a "freak",   Becton was one of your "freaks".  What you want to look for is a "football player" that has more than measurables, 

2.  Character is key.  It does not matter how big, strong and fast a prospect is if they are not mature and committed to owning their job. If several prospects grade out as acceptable as far as their measurables, ALWAYS go with character and maturity.

3. Quality players in FA want to be paid.  If you bring in bargain basement players expect bargain basement performance. Remember... Just because *YOU* made the deal for a lower priced player, you are still going to get poor performance no matter how hard you pat yourself on the back for spending less cap.

4. Any player or prospect that cant stay on the field is NOT worth ANY money regardless of how much of a "freak" they look like in that rare occasion when they are not on the injury list.  DONT pay any player or prospect that is not proven to be durable.  Especially on the offensive line where continuity is everything.

So,.. Please Joe.  Keep your head out of your ass.  

[DonCorleone]

1 hour ago, kmnj said:

Joe is a poor gm as shown by his poor record but what he is a genius at is protecting his job-every year there is a " reason" why joe needs another year and" now is not the time to replace him" even though his record sucks- 

his team sucks, his total record as a gm sucks  but nope you cant get rid of him because of Arod. We bought into Arod so we have to  keep Joe and Saleh-who bought into Arod the same guy that we cant get rid of because of Arod-pure genius-

it is always something,  i t was not joe it was gase who ran the draft, hey we have a new qb he needs time, he we have a new coach, we have a new oc, we have a new 40 year old qb, our 40 year old qb is hurt but we have to keep Joe because Joe brought in Arod.

I suspect next year he fires Saleh hires a new coach and we cant fire Joe then because his new coach needs time to get his plan in place-and who will come here with new gm we have to keep Joe....years from now we will be talking about how Joe continues to lose at historical rates but we cant fire Joe it is not the time....

 

 

 

 

 

Next year will be just another wasted season. We needed to clean house now.  We keep these losers for the Sake of Arod, for the Sake of continuity (Continuously losing), and so on.  The losing this season has affected me differently than any other. As I get older, losing seasons become tougher and tougher to take.

[ASH1962]

Ever notice the NY Jets always talk about what will be, but never talk about what actually is? I heard Coach Salesman yesterday talking about how we can win a SB with AR if he stays healthy next season, and we will have better o line play next season blah blah blah. None of their BS will keep AVT on the field for more than 1-2 games per season or keep Becton from allowing the QB to get destroyed every other play, or help the OC call a competent game plan that does not include running up the middle for 1 yard on 1st and 2nd down and getting sacked on 3rd and 9+ every single series. How about we discuss Saleh's record as a HC and how putrid his game planning is, how disgraceful last week's performance was, how we can rarely muster more than a couple of fg's in a game, stretching week after week. No. We have to get a head start on Propaganda for 2024 a week before Christmas 2023 sitting out of the playoff race at the usual 5-8 record on the way to 6-11 or worse. We also need to discuss the great Joe "Mr. Canton" Douglas' record. 2020 draft=a disgrace. 2021 draft= a disgrace. 2022 draft was good. 2023 draft was a complete waste. His FA signings have been abysmal. He has made a few decent trades such as the Jamal Adams trade. I knew back in 2020 when he wasted a 4th round pick on a QB who couldn't play in the Arena league even, and a (sucky) punter, that we were screwed.

Just to be 100% clear, salary cap be damned, I vote we clean house immediately. If AR wants to retire so be it, we will go 3-14 or worse because his salary will give us 0 cap room, but at least we would hopefully be on the road to putting the last 3 years of miserable football behind us, if they hire the right people. Personally, I do not think AR would forgo so much money to save his friends asses and would play for / cooperate with anyone they hire. Should they choose not to fire everyone (which we all know is what will happen) and bring this mess back next year, we will go 5-12 or worse for sure. There is ZERO evidence that this CS has the first clue what they are doing. AR will be the biggest headache we have ever endured here when losing so much. Then, maybe, they will come to their senses and clean this mess out once and for all and hire some god damned competent football people.

I have said this a million times here. There is nothing I would love more than to come here and write positive posts about our team doing well, going to the playoffs etc. but the fact is we have nothing positive to talk about here - ever. So friggin sad...

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I get the hate. Sundays suck these days. 

And after an offseason of hype, it’s even worse.

But, one of the two major problems with this team is quarterback play. 

We’re all aware that Rodgers’ biggest character flaw is ego. But in this case, it could very well serve us. The dude does not want to exit the league like this. He’ll come back with his silly dragon tattoo and be hell-bent on “proving all the haters wrong”. 

The second issue is the offensive line. But at least the draft is full of good tackles this year, and the Becky experiment has run its course. 

Hopefully we tank the rest of the season, pickup the Notre Dame or Penn State tackle in the draft, throw every available resource at offensive lineman via trades/free agency. 

This team, with Rodgers and just an average offensive line, will be fun to watch next year. The nightmare that was this season is almost over.

I agree with a lot of this. 
 

I actually think there is a decent chance that Rodgers plays reasonably well for us next year. I agree that he’ll be hella motivated. 
 

My big issue is that I think there is a third major problem: Saleh is probably a bad head coach and I think our ceiling is ultimately limited with him.

 

I think when you lose 34-13 and 30-0 to the same team in the span of 3 weeks, it suggests there is a tremendous disparity in either talent or coaching between the two teams - and I think it’s coaching. The kicker is that Miami was super banged up for the second matchup (no Hill, no starting center, no starting right guard) and the Jets got blown out again, but even worse. Not a good sign for the coaching staff. 
 

Saleh is 3-14 in the division and 7 of those 14 losses have been by 3 or more scores. He also has a losing record with extra time to prepare. And then there is the fact that his team has collapsed down the stretch of back to back seasons (he still only has 1 win in December and January combined - lol).

These are all red flags for bad coaching, IMO. There is just a lot of evidence that Saleh is bad at preparing the team to play and I don’t see that magically going away on its own. 

I’d feel MUCH better about our future if we nuked this coaching staff after the season and hired an offensive head coach. 

[batman10023]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

the biggest con was the multi year rebuild 

other teams turn it around in 2 or 3 years

Joe soud ownership and fans that he needed 5 or 6 years to clear out all the bad Mac and Idzik contracts 

completely ludicrous

there's no such thing as a multi year rebuild in a league where 15-20 percent of the roster churns every year and the players average career is less than 3 years

there's no rebuilding there's only reloading

now aaron says they just need to reload it's like yeah they could have been doing that the whole time 

and by the way, now Joe Douglas has saddled this franchise with the worst most toxic contract of them all, Aaron's. Worse than anything Mac or Idzik did as it goes

and he has a worse w-l record than those two bums, given longer time

OP is correct Joe Douglas is amazing at keeping his job. everything else he's meh at 

If (and big if) Rodgers plays 3 years total - is that contract really that bad?  (assuming he plays like a qb ranked 10-15th )

[Dunnie]

Both Saleh and Douglas will be wrapping up their Jets careers in a little over a years time. Have to let it play out.

It's a process

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[bitonti]

13 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

If (and big if) Rodgers plays 3 years total - is that contract really that bad?  (assuming he plays like a qb ranked 10-15th )

In a vacuum no it's not crazy to pay a top 15 qb about 35 mil a year 

However the contract has void years until 2028 and it makes Aaron Rodgers the highest paid player in franchise history 

Now throw in Hackett the worst coordinator in league history (stats prove this about the 2023 offense it's not an opinion) 

How about 2 second round picks? Dropping two slots in Rd 1? That's essentially a late third Rd pick. 

What about the other 6 worthless players he came with? (Amos, Boyle, Cobb, cook, lazard and Turner)

And of course Rodgers play which is TBD at best and at worst he's washed. That play he got hurt everyone blamed the line but it was a 2 second play to wilson who was open, Rodgers passed it up held it until 4 one thousand and got crushed. 

He's not a top 15 qb he's washed and should be retired like Namath with the rams. There's no good outcome here he's either going to be a massive dead cap hit or he is going to be a washed old dude with zero mobility who should be retired 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

the biggest con was the multi year rebuild 

other teams turn it around in 2 or 3 years

Joe sold ownership and fans that he needed 5 or 6 years to clear out all the bad Mac and Idzik contracts 

completely ludicrous

there's no such thing as a multi year rebuild in a league where 15-20 percent of the roster churns every year and the players average career is less than 3 years

there's no rebuilding there's only reloading

now aaron says they just need to reload it's like yeah they could have been doing that the whole time 

and by the way, now Joe Douglas has saddled this franchise with the worst most toxic contract of them all, Aaron's. Worse than anything Mac or Idzik did as it goes

and he has a worse w-l record than those two bums, given longer time

OP is correct Joe Douglas is amazing at keeping his job. everything else he's meh at 

He certainly needed a year to clear out bad contracts.  The Jamal trade gave him ammunition to build the team, but he hit on all of those picks in a big way.  This team is way more talented than when he got here but we still can't win.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

This team is way more talented than when he got here 

This is one of those statements everyone accepts as true but it's not proven by any statistic

In fact by many measures this is one of the worst teams in Jets history 

Certainly the offense is in that category 

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, bitonti said:

This is one of those statements everyone accepts as true but it's not proven by any statistic

In fact by many measures this is one of the worst teams in Jets history 

Certainly the offense is in that category 

What about that draft last year though (Sauce, GW, JJ, Breece)? 

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

What about that draft last year though (Sauce, GW, JJ, Breece)? 

OK sure 

What about literally every other move he's made before or since? 

[Adoni Beast]

34 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I’d feel MUCH better about our future if we nuked this coaching staff after the season and hired an offensive head coach. 

And this is it right here. Rodgers will be back + the OL can be upgraded to make it serviceable.

But ultimately a sh*t head coach will hold a team back. Hell, Elway fired John Fox a year removed from a Super Bowl appearance because he wasn't going to get it done. He brought in Kubrick who won with a much more depleted Peyton Manning than the superstar John Fox had.

Coaching matters and be the difference in a good team being great or a good team being sh*t. Get this bum out of here.

[Augustiniak]

7 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This is one of those statements everyone accepts as true but it's not proven by any statistic

In fact by many measures this is one of the worst teams in Jets history 

Certainly the offense is in that category 

The problem with evaluating the offensive players is that when you have such a crappy qb is affects all the other players.  It’s not like the nba where a guy on a bad team can put up good stats and can be a star anyway.  

[varjet]

1 hour ago, kmnj said:

that is the genius of Joe-he bought himself another two years by bringing in Arod -results or no results it does not matter-if arod gets hurt week one next year do we put the franchise on hold again for another year.......does joe get a pass yet again.....

I don't think that JD. as a failed GM, would have written his own firing papers by saying that the answer was to sign AR8 to a new contract.  

I think this was driven by Woody, and Woody basically told JD to go along and he would stick around at least during AR8's tenure.

Unfortunately for JD and others, what he did with the team during year 1 of AR8 was basically inept.  So he put himself back in the hole after a great 2022 draft. 

He now has 2024 to get it right, or get out.  

[ChewyandtheJets]

1 hour ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I get the hate. Sundays suck these days. 

And after an offseason of hype, it’s even worse.

But, one of the two major problems with this team is quarterback play. 

We’re all aware that Rodgers’ biggest character flaw is ego. But in this case, it could very well serve us. The dude does not want to exit the league like this. He’ll come back with his silly dragon tattoo and be hell-bent on “proving all the haters wrong”. 

The second issue is the offensive line. But at least the draft is full of good tackles this year, and the Becky experiment has run its course. 

Hopefully we tank the rest of the season, pickup the Notre Dame or Penn State tackle in the draft, throw every available resource at offensive lineman via trades/free agency. 

This team, with Rodgers and just an average offensive line, will be fun to watch next year. The nightmare that was this season is almost over.

Counting on Rodger's ego motivating him to elevate his play is a bit of a reach.  Every historically great player has a huge ego.  They all had huge competitive drives.  What forces them out of the game is their diminishing physical skills.  The ego just keeps them playing a year or two longer before the brain and body fall into stubborn alignment.   It's a bid sad but understandable when that happens to the team they carried for so long.  It really stings if it's a new team that just signed him.  And it is an outright disaster when it happens to a team that paid him like he was still near his prime and also traded significant draft assets for the privelege.  We swung hard and whiffed badly.  There is a certain nobility in that.  Rolling it all back a second time and hoping for a better outcome is just plain old blind faith.  It feels good but seldom works out. 

 

 

 

[bitonti]

13 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The problem with evaluating the offensive players is that when you have such a crappy qb is affects all the other players.  It’s not like the nba where a guy on a bad team can put up good stats and can be a star anyway.  

What's to evaluate? Joe picked Zach the worst draft pick in franchise history and also signed Aaron Rodgers the worst trade in franchise history. 

The best player on the team by the way is a Mac pick 

[Biggs]

The problem with the team is management.  There is zero accountability.  Rodgers got hurt.  Did ticket prices drop?  Yet there was zero effort to improve the team before the trade deadline.  Zero effort to rid the country club atmosphere needed to get Rodgers to sign.

We've had a lot of bad teams.  This team was virtually unwatchable.  It was among the most boring uninspiring Jets teams.  Historically crappy football. 
 

But our savior got hurt.  Free pass for everyone.  No refunds for the "toxic" fan base.  Aaron is pissed at us because we aren't positive enough. 

[varjet]

1 hour ago, DonCorleone said:

Next year will be just another wasted season. We needed to clean house now.  We keep these losers for the Sake of Arod, for the Sake of continuity (Continuously losing), and so on.  The losing this season has affected me differently than any other. As I get older, losing seasons become tougher and tougher to take.

I share your frustration, and don't think you are wrong, but by cleaning house now, because of the cap hits we are basically guaranteed a disaster season next year.  I don't think that is what Woody wants.

If we stay the course on the two year AR8 plan, it is POSSIBLE that next season can be competitive.  Not guaranteed-possible.

Yes, the hangover after AR8 goes will be bad, but you can't do worse than winning 0 games.  I think that is what next year would look like with a redo.

Woody is not cleaning house for 2024.  I do think he needs to think long and hard about pulling the plug on this gang for 2025 if it does not work out.  that is when I would do a total reboot. 

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

the biggest con was the multi year rebuild 

other teams turn it around in 2 or 3 years

Joe sold ownership and fans that he needed 5 or 6 years to clear out all the bad Mac and Idzik contracts 

completely ludicrous

there's no such thing as a multi year rebuild in a league where 15-20 percent of the roster churns every year and the players average career is less than 3 years

there's no rebuilding there's only reloading

now aaron says they just need to reload it's like yeah they could have been doing that the whole time 

and by the way, now Joe Douglas has saddled this franchise with the worst most toxic contract of them all, Aaron's. Worse than anything Mac or Idzik did as it goes

and he has a worse w-l record than those two bums, given longer time

OP is correct Joe Douglas is amazing at keeping his job. everything else he's meh at 

If you to blame Douglas for anything it’s bringing in another newbie coach.  I don’t know if the jets aren’t willing to pay for a top coach but they certainly needed one who had some experience with building a team.  Saleh didn’t and he compounded the error by bringing in his butt boys, like milfy, to run things.  We’re lucky Ulbrich has worked out.

[TuscanyTile2]

31 minutes ago, bitonti said:

OK sure 

What about literally every other move he's made before or since? 

Tippmann looks promising (and I think IV does too though he did seem like a luxury pick).  DJ Reed.  Quincy Williams.  MC II.   I'm sure there are some others.

But his W/L record is impossible to defend.

[jeremy2020]

2 hours ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

What are you talking about? Saleh said yesterday that Rodgers plans to play till he's about 50. So, we're stuck with them for a long time. 

Let's hope SOME winning happens.

Rodgers had to say it because if they plan to get anyone to sign without having to offer vastly more than anyone else.. they need to pretend that Rodgers will be playing at 42

[Ecuadorian Jet]

2 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I get the hate. Sundays suck these days. 

by "these days" you mean over 4,000 days......right?

[Ecuadorian Jet]

1 hour ago, ASH1962 said:

Ever notice the NY Jets always talk about what will be, but never talk about what actually is? I heard Coach Salesman yesterday talking about how we can win a SB with AR if he stays healthy next season, and we will have better o line play next season blah blah blah. None of their BS will keep AVT on the field for more than 1-2 games per season or keep Becton from allowing the QB to get destroyed every other play, or help the OC call a competent game plan that does not include running up the middle for 1 yard on 1st and 2nd down and getting sacked on 3rd and 9+ every single series. How about we discuss Saleh's record as a HC and how putrid his game planning is, how disgraceful last week's performance was, how we can rarely muster more than a couple of fg's in a game, stretching week after week. No. We have to get a head start on Propaganda for 2024 a week before Christmas 2023 sitting out of the playoff race at the usual 5-8 record on the way to 6-11 or worse. We also need to discuss the great Joe "Mr. Canton" Douglas' record. 2020 draft=a disgrace. 2021 draft= a disgrace. 2022 draft was good. 2023 draft was a complete waste. His FA signings have been abysmal. He has made a few decent trades such as the Jamal Adams trade. I knew back in 2020 when he wasted a 4th round pick on a QB who couldn't play in the Arena league even, and a (sucky) punter, that we were screwed.

Just to be 100% clear, salary cap be damned, I vote we clean house immediately. If AR wants to retire so be it, we will go 3-14 or worse because his salary will give us 0 cap room, but at least we would hopefully be on the road to putting the last 3 years of miserable football behind us, if they hire the right people. Personally, I do not think AR would forgo so much money to save his friends asses and would play for / cooperate with anyone they hire. Should they choose not to fire everyone (which we all know is what will happen) and bring this mess back next year, we will go 5-12 or worse for sure. There is ZERO evidence that this CS has the first clue what they are doing. AR will be the biggest headache we have ever endured here when losing so much. Then, maybe, they will come to their senses and clean this mess out once and for all and hire some god damned competent football people.

I have said this a million times here. There is nothing I would love more than to come here and write positive posts about our team doing well, going to the playoffs etc. but the fact is we have nothing positive to talk about here - ever. So friggin sad...

the Jet franchise is not about winning football...that entire organization is about PR and PSLs. Nothing else matters.