State income tax a stated factor in Shaq Barrett picking Mia over NYJ

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The $6MM+ in cash he'd have sent to the state of NJ in the first 2 years of his Miami contract, instead of keeping it tax free, obviously means nothing to a person who cares nothing for money, such as Hill.

He wanted to get to Miami specifically no matter what, so much so that he never once signed an extension in Kansas City. 

Then after that fiction didn't happen, he further stayed in KC on another team-friendly contract because money was such a non-factor for him.

Oh wait, that didn't happen either.  

He signed one contract extension in KC that made him the WR1 with Beckham. 

[Matt39]

13 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Maybe adjust the cap for taxes. Players would definitely vote for that. Teams in no tax states would fight it though.

But a team like the Giants or Jets should have more cap space.

Similar to revenue sharing. Teams in smaller markets like the Jags can exist because big market teams are pulling more weight.

Take it up with your local rep

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, T0mShane said:

He signed one contract extension in KC that made him the WR1 with Beckham. 

But I thought he doesn't care about money as much as he cares about playing in Miami.

Pick a lane . 

[T0mShane]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

But I thought he doesn't care about money as much as he cares about playing in Miami.

Pick a lane . 

He was always going to Miami, and he got money, and Douglas helped push Miami into the cap hell in which they now reside. Wins all around, imo, except for Miami.

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Maybe adjust the cap for taxes. Players would definitely vote for that. Teams in no tax states would fight it though.

But a team like the Giants or Jets should have more cap space.

Similar to revenue sharing. Teams in smaller markets like the Jags can exist because big market teams are pulling more weight.

The NFL will start thinking about this the next time the Yankees or Mets lose a free agent to a low-budget Florida backwater team. 

[Origen]

5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We always suspected it, but here's more confirmation that these guys are well aware they make (keep) 10% less, on all their bonus and home game checks, if signing with the Jets over a no state tax team like Miami.

Years ago we used to be able to get past that with NYC being such a draw: night life and media hub and higher endorsements made up for a lot of that. Now the city has become a disgusting s***hole again like when I was a kid, and with there no longer being a need to be in a high population state or city to get publicity for big endorsements & such, what is left? A nice practice facility (yay) that's still over an hour drive to/from the city that's supposed to be a draw (unless you're driving at 6am on a weekend when there is no NYC draw anyway); crazy high prices for homes and property taxes; our awful + cold weather while they're in the area for most of the season (for many/most, nowhere near where they live or want to live in the off-season); and the final kick in the balls of a financial penalty where 10% of your bonus and home checks pay goes to the state. If there isn't the allure of playing with a proven winner here - which there isn't - it's really not an even. Every team having an even cap ceiling is itself a built-in uneven system, unintended as that may be. 

Mia, Tampa, Jax, Ten, Dal, Hou, Sea, LV get to discount their offers by millions. Especially on short (especially 1 year short) contracts where they can offer the bulk of the compensation paid out as signing & roster bonus at a 0% state tax rate. Having to outbid one player after another by ~10% and it cumulatively adds up to losing the ability to pay (or at least upgrade the quality of) an extra good/great veteran starter or two.

The league can't even-out all the states' tax rates, and can't even out weather and locations of course, but I'm thinking maybe they could fudge it so a base salary cap limit applies to teams in no tax states, and the rest get an increased cap ceiling bump by the amount of the respective states' marginal tax rates. If Miami gets a $255MM ceiling, the Jets get a $282MM ceiling. Or even if it's by just half that amount it would be a good start to leveling things. Otherwise even aside from weather/area draws, with the amounts the in-demand FAs make now this is now such a blatant bidding disadvantage for totally non-football reasons. 

And I don't even care about Shaq Barrett.

They still have to pay the homeowners insurance in Miami, along with living in the flaming sh*thole called Florida.  "Where people think paying taxes to educate their children is bad"

[Sperm Edwards]

Players really don't care about making (read: keeping) more money.

This is, amazingly, the effective argument of something I'd think wasn't arguable: teams in zero (state) tax states have a financial advantage over those in high tax states, in terms of how much their players make. They don't make how much is in their contracts, or even how much guaranteed $ is in their contracts. They only make what's left over after the taxman cometh.

There has ever been no shortage of knuckleheads in the NFL, but the idea that all of those who command high dollars are nothing more than a bunch of benighted imbeciles, who can't do addition & multiplication, is pretty snobbish and frankly beyond elitist. Further, the idea that they don't care about losing millions more in taxes, because all the good players worth having in actuality are unconcerned about money when it comes to their biggest single cash-in, is a convenient take when it's someone else's money.

Fans want players to get all they can get - and justifiably (or at a minimum, understandably) so, when it comes to CBA negotiations. When they choose all they can get on an individual level - which is all that's going to matter in their lives in the decades after their playing days are over - then they're expected to act against their own financial interests. It's a ridiculous attempt to square a circle.

Players act in their own interests.

• For some it's playing where they want for personal reasons;
• for some it's playing where they want for career achievements not realized yet (getting that ring; starting; etc.) before time runs out on their careers;
• for some they realize (or think they realize) that they are such big names that they make more in endorsements than the difference in pay just by playing with a winner & staying on top (Brady, or recently what Rodgers attempted). 
• for some (and is overwhelmingly agreed that it's for most) it's where they get paid the most because they know there may never be another major payday after this one. So just like some players will take a 5-10% higher contract from a team when it's down to the bucks, some will correctly determine that the same contract dollars from two teams doesn't result in the same dollars kept, and in fact the disparity is significant.

 

[GreenFish]

24 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That's literally the last full paragraph of my thread starter, so yes I agree.

My bad. I read the first half and thought I got everything I needed to know. Went back and read the full post.

Makes sense to me. The only reason why a team like the Jags can afford good players is because of teams like the Jets and Giants. The NFL takes away the competitive advantage the large market teams have through revenue sharing.

[Sperm Edwards]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

He was always going to Miami, and he got money, and Douglas helped push Miami into the cap hell in which they now reside. Wins all around, imo, except for Miami.

Yet amazingly, going to Miami a factor for his first cash-in? He wasn't going to Miami at all until he priced himself out of remaining in KC.

i.e. it was about money, just as it is for most (if not almost all) players in their prime earning years, and quite understandably so.

[rangerous]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We always suspected it, but here's more confirmation that these guys are well aware they make (keep) 10% less, on all their bonus and home game checks, if signing with the Jets over a no state tax team like Miami.

Years ago we used to be able to get past that with NYC being such a draw: night life and media hub and higher endorsements made up for a lot of that. Now the city has become a disgusting s***hole again like when I was a kid, and with there no longer being a need to be in a high population state or city to get publicity for big endorsements & such, what is left? A nice practice facility (yay) that's still over an hour drive to/from the city that's supposed to be a draw (unless you're driving at 6am on a weekend when there is no NYC draw anyway); crazy high prices for homes and property taxes; our awful + cold weather while they're in the area for most of the season (for many/most, nowhere near where they live or want to live in the off-season); and the final kick in the balls of a financial penalty where 10% of your bonus and home checks pay goes to the state. If there isn't the allure of playing with a proven winner here - which there isn't - it's really not an even. Every team having an even cap ceiling is itself a built-in uneven system, unintended as that may be. 

Mia, Tampa, Jax, Ten, Dal, Hou, Sea, LV get to discount their offers by millions. Especially on short (especially 1 year short) contracts where they can offer the bulk of the compensation paid out as signing & roster bonus at a 0% state tax rate. Having to outbid one player after another by ~10% and it cumulatively adds up to losing the ability to pay (or at least upgrade the quality of) an extra good/great veteran starter or two.

The league can't even-out all the states' tax rates, and can't even out weather and locations of course, but I'm thinking maybe they could fudge it so a base salary cap limit applies to teams in no tax states, and the rest get an increased cap ceiling bump by the amount of the respective states' marginal tax rates. If Miami gets a $255MM ceiling, the Jets get a $282MM ceiling. Or even if it's by just half that amount it would be a good start to leveling things. Otherwise even aside from weather/area draws, with the amounts the in-demand FAs make now this is now such a blatant bidding disadvantage for totally non-football reasons. 

And I don't even care about Shaq Barrett.

Yep, the taxes do stink.  Having lived up here for my whole life I am simply amazed at how little we get.  I guess a tiered salary cap arrangement could be had.  I know the government has regional salaries for their workers.  But the real solution is for us to stop voting in losers who just want to raise taxes.  Sorry for this becoming somewhat political but in the words of pogo, we have met the enemy and he are us.

[GreenFish]

15 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The NFL will start thinking about this the next time the Yankees or Mets lose a free agent to a low-budget Florida backwater team. 

I no longer follow baseball. So I might be thinking about this wrong. In baseball, there’s revenue sharing but no salary cap. So big market teams benefit from being big market teams.

In football, big market teams don't benefit as much if at all.

This may not be a huge issue for the NFL. But if they address the big and small market issue in the name of fair competition, the same applies for differences in state tax policy which is not determined by the teams.

[T0mShane]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Yet amazingly, going to Miami a factor for his first cash-in? He wasn't going to Miami at all until he priced himself out of remaining in KC.

i.e. it was about money, just as it is for most (if not almost all) players in their prime earning years, and quite understandably so.

He would have gotten paid in either Miami or New York, but KC wasn’t going to pay him because they had just given Mahomes $450mm. Hill was always going to Miami. Rosenhaus wouldn’t let the Jets talk to Hill during these negotiations and the Jets ended up offering a pittance in draft capital compared to what the Dolphins eventually gave up. 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

JD needs to get creative with contracts.  Instead of paying the same amount for each game, make 90% of the salary paid the week we're in Miami.  Then break the other 16 games up evenly for the final 10%.

 

#BOOM 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, GreenFish said:

I no longer follow baseball. So I might be thinking about this wrong. In baseball, there’s revenue sharing but no salary cap. So big market teams benefit from being big market teams.

In football, big market teams don't benefit as much if at all.

This may not be a huge issue for the NFL. But if they address the big and small market issue in the name of fair competition, the same applies for differences in state tax policy which is not determined by the teams.

I guess it could become an issue if high-tax teams lose significant players because of those taxes, but when teams from the Northeast and California are consistently appearing in and winning Super Bowls while teams from Florida and Texas are, well, not, then what’s the motivation? Because the Dolphins gave 31 year old Shaq Barrett and his 7 sacks over the past two seasons $9 million dollars? 

[BornJetsFan1983]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We always suspected it, but here's more confirmation that these guys are well aware they make (keep) 10% less, on all their bonus and home game checks, if signing with the Jets over a no state tax team like Miami.

Years ago we used to be able to get past that with NYC being such a draw: night life and media hub and higher endorsements made up for a lot of that. Now the city has become a disgusting s***hole again like when I was a kid, and with there no longer being a need to be in a high population state or city to get publicity for big endorsements & such, what is left? A nice practice facility (yay) that's still over an hour drive to/from the city that's supposed to be a draw (unless you're driving at 6am on a weekend when there is no NYC draw anyway); crazy high prices for homes and property taxes; our awful + cold weather while they're in the area for most of the season (for many/most, nowhere near where they live or want to live in the off-season); and the final kick in the balls of a financial penalty where 10% of your bonus and home checks pay goes to the state. If there isn't the allure of playing with a proven winner here - which there isn't - it's really not an even. Every team having an even cap ceiling is itself a built-in uneven system, unintended as that may be. 

Mia, Tampa, Jax, Ten, Dal, Hou, Sea, LV get to discount their offers by millions. Especially on short (especially 1 year short) contracts where they can offer the bulk of the compensation paid out as signing & roster bonus at a 0% state tax rate. Having to outbid one player after another by ~10% and it cumulatively adds up to losing the ability to pay (or at least upgrade the quality of) an extra good/great veteran starter or two.

The league can't even-out all the states' tax rates, and can't even out weather and locations of course, but I'm thinking maybe they could fudge it so a base salary cap limit applies to teams in no tax states, and the rest get an increased cap ceiling bump by the amount of the respective states' marginal tax rates. If Miami gets a $255MM ceiling, the Jets get a $282MM ceiling. Or even if it's by just half that amount it would be a good start to leveling things. Otherwise even aside from weather/area draws, with the amounts the in-demand FAs make now this is now such a blatant bidding disadvantage for totally non-football reasons. 

And I don't even care about Shaq Barrett.

Well I mean if you think anyone doesn't care about a state stealing more money or less money from you when you are about to sign a check. I think you are naive. I also don't think anyone other than someone working minimum wage doesn't consider tax considerations.

[Sperm Edwards]

7 minutes ago, Origen said:

They still have to pay the homeowners insurance in Miami, along with living in the flaming sh*thole called Florida.  "Where people think paying taxes to educate their children is bad"

I'm sorry -- homeowners insurance??

People in an 11% state income tax bracket are going to move to NJ with a multiple higher property taxes, property transfer taxes, gas taxes, and yes that crazy high income tax disparity...because of homeowners insurance that averages what, $50-100/month per $100K of house (in an area where the $/SF of house is less, too)? Lmao.

It's not just Miami with 0%, btw. 

1. Miami
2. Tampa Bay
3. Jacksonville
4. Tennessee
5. Seattle
6. Las Vegas
7. Dallas
8. Houston

Then those with rates around half (or less than half) that of NY/NJ/CA teams:

1. Arizona (2.5%)
2. Kansas City (4.8%)
3. Atlanta (5.5%)
4. North Carolina (4.5%)
5. New Orleans (4.3%)
6. Indianapolis (3%)
7. Cincinnati (3.5%)
8. Cleveland (3.5%)
9. Philadelphia (3%)
10. Pittsburgh (3%)
11. Detroit (4.3%)
12. Baltimore (5.8%)
13. Chicago (5%)

Compare to the rest:

1. Green Bay 7.7%
2. Massachusetts 9%
3. Minnesota 9.9%
4. New Jersey 10.8%
5. New York 10.9%
6. California 13.3%

 

No one is claiming everyone chooses a low tax state over a high tax one when agreeing to terms with teams. That's not the case. I'm only saying it's one of the factors, the more these guys make the bigger a factor it is in real dollars; and that to land the players they want, teams like the Jets sometimes (perhaps often) have to outbid to make up for that difference.

[BornJetsFan1983]

10 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Rich people not wanting to pay tax and leaving the tax burden to the lower class?  

Other news: Water is wet. 

News flash roch people pah way more tax vect it is progressive tax brackets and the lowest on the rung by far the least. #commonsense

[Bobby816]

Sounds like we’re close to getting Clowney who’s better. So doesn’t really matter.

 

But in regards to state tax. Of course it matters to players. It matters to us who aren’t athletes. I live in TX. If I ever move it’d only be to FL. Both states with no state tax.

[doitny]

6 hours ago, mfmartin said:

 

If you think that NYC has no appeal to young, rich athletes, you are living in fantasy land.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

if you think NYC has the same appeal it use too your living in fantasy land.

[doitny]

33 minutes ago, Origen said:

They still have to pay the homeowners insurance in Miami, along with living in the flaming sh*thole called Florida.  "Where people think paying taxes to educate their children is bad"

Florida and Texas has the most new residences in the country.

NY and California are the top 2 places people are leaving.

cant be such a sh*t hole.

[FootballLove]

6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

We always suspected it, but here's more confirmation that these guys are well aware they make (keep) 10% less, on all their bonus and home game checks, if signing with the Jets over a no state tax team like Miami.

Years ago we used to be able to get past that with NYC being such a draw: night life and media hub and higher endorsements made up for a lot of that. Now the city has become a disgusting s***hole again like when I was a kid, and with there no longer being a need to be in a high population state or city to get publicity for big endorsements & such, what is left? A nice practice facility (yay) that's still over an hour drive to/from the city that's supposed to be a draw (unless you're driving at 6am on a weekend when there is no NYC draw anyway); crazy high prices for homes and property taxes; our awful + cold weather while they're in the area for most of the season (for many/most, nowhere near where they live or want to live in the off-season); and the final kick in the balls of a financial penalty where 10% of your bonus and home checks pay goes to the state. If there isn't the allure of playing with a proven winner here - which there isn't - it's really not an even. Every team having an even cap ceiling is itself a built-in uneven system, unintended as that may be. 

Mia, Tampa, Jax, Ten, Dal, Hou, Sea, LV get to discount their offers by millions. Especially on short (especially 1 year short) contracts where they can offer the bulk of the compensation paid out as signing & roster bonus at a 0% state tax rate. Having to outbid one player after another by ~10% and it cumulatively adds up to losing the ability to pay (or at least upgrade the quality of) an extra good/great veteran starter or two.

The league can't even-out all the states' tax rates, and can't even out weather and locations of course, but I'm thinking maybe they could fudge it so a base salary cap limit applies to teams in no tax states, and the rest get an increased cap ceiling bump by the amount of the respective states' marginal tax rates. If Miami gets a $255MM ceiling, the Jets get a $282MM ceiling. Or even if it's by just half that amount it would be a good start to leveling things. Otherwise even aside from weather/area draws, with the amounts the in-demand FAs make now this is now such a blatant bidding disadvantage for totally non-football reasons. 

And I don't even care about Shaq Barrett.

All good stuff.

I wonder if teams in zero-tax states tend to pay their players more with a big signing bonus ($ zero state tax) and small game checks, which would be taxed for away games.

Where teams in high-tax states may prefer to use large game checks, many of which won't get taxed if the game is held in a $0-tax state.

Can a team manipulate the game checks for the players? Paying them more for games held in tax-friendly states and paying only the minimum for games in tax-heavy states?

Solved!

[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

He would have gotten paid in either Miami or New York, but KC wasn’t going to pay him because they had just given Mahomes $450mm. Hill was always going to Miami. Rosenhaus wouldn’t let the Jets talk to Hill during these negotiations and the Jets ended up offering a pittance in draft capital compared to what the Dolphins eventually gave up. 

Except it isn't true that they couldn't have fit him in. KC is paying a 3rd tier RT $20MM/year, so they surely could've paid the NFL's best WR $25MM/year (the real amount of Hill's contract, once you remove the 4th nonsense year at $45MM that he'll never see, to bring up the phony average to $30MM).

Also they tried to further make up for it by paying $18MM/year for an MVS/JJSS combo to replace Hill. 

So...no, that isn't a thing.

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Well I mean if you think anyone doesn't care about a state stealing more money or less money from you when you are about to sign a check. I think you are naive. I also don't think anyone other than someone working minimum wage doesn't consider tax considerations.

You sure this post was meant for me?

[TuscanyTile2]

4 hours ago, mfmartin said:

Once again, you are imposing your own personal lifestyle as fact.

Some athletes simply don’t give a sh*t about taxes especially in your 20s.

Funny you never hear about the taxes when it comes to the Yankees or the Rangers when they land a ton of the FAs they want.

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

I would imagine their agents are going to mention it to them, though.  That plus emphasizing how short the average NFL career is.  And talk of "generational wealth".

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except it isn't true that they couldn't have fit him in. KC is paying a 3rd tier RT $20MM/year, so they surely could've paid the NFL's best WR $25MM/year (the real amount of Hill's contract, once you remove the 4th nonsense year at $45MM that he'll never see, to bring up the phony average to $30MM).

Also they tried to further make up for it by paying $18MM/year for an MVS/JJSS combo to replace Hill. 

So...no, that isn't a thing.

Your argument here is that KC could have kept Hill but chose not to?

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, FootballLove said:

All good stuff.

I wonder if teams in zero-tax states tend to pay their players more with a big signing bonus ($ zero state tax) and small game checks, which would be taxed for away games.

Where teams in high-tax states may prefer to use large game checks, many of which won't get taxed if the game is held in a $0-tax state.

Can a team manipulate the game checks for the players? Paying them more for games held in tax-friendly states and paying only the minimum for games in tax-heavy states?

Solved!

They all do, and then the highest players kinda know there's a high probability that there'll be a restructure (maybe more than one restructure) after that bonus-heavy first season. 

And no, they can't do that. You get a yearly salary and it's split evenly every week.

I was thinking roster bonuses paid during those weeks, but that wouldn't fly either. 

Really there's no way around it or higher-tax states' GMs would be doing it already.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Your argument here is that KC could have kept Hill but chose not to?

Hill wanted a big pay raise. KC chose not to pay it a second time around.

However, if they could've paid $20MM to the likes of Jawaan Taylor, and $18MM to a major downgrade MVS/JJSS combo, yes they could've made $25MM for Hill fit.

They went with the extra cap space and especially the extra draft picks. 

It's glossed over because Mahomes is the NFL's Michael Jordan (the most dominant player getting every nitpicky call on top of that), able to get by with literally 1 reliable target in an era where fans think teams need 3 above average WR starters to be competitive.

[FootballLove]

37 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They all do, and then the highest players kinda know there's a high probability that there'll be a restructure (maybe more than one restructure) after that bonus-heavy first season. 

And no, they can't do that. You get a yearly salary and it's split evenly every week.

I was thinking roster bonuses paid during those weeks, but that wouldn't fly either. 

Really there's no way around it or higher-tax states' GMs would be doing it already.

Ya you're right. The big signing bonus in tax-friendly states is about the only way. 

On a side note, the big signing bonus in tax-heavy states seems to be counter-productive. Nearly their entire contract is taxed to the max.... 

[Sonny Werblin]

he should've picked a different division then because he's gonna have to pay taxes on game checks in New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts. the AFC South is the tax haven of the NFL with Texas, Florida, Tennessee and Indiana.  Sign in that division and you are guaranteed at least 11 game checks with no state income tax.

[Larz]

The jets used to just pay the player 10% more but JD has learned his lesson I think 

[TuscanyTile2]

5 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

This again…..I don’t think People understand how taxes work. Or how being in the New York media market makes you more money in ads and exposure then some sh*tty Florida town….

Mods can we stop this narrative that borders on politics 

^^ Doesn't realize the OP is a mod.

[Origen]

58 minutes ago, doitny said:

Florida and Texas has the most new residences in the country.

NY and California are the top 2 places people are leaving.

cant be such a sh*t hole.

I can't account for old people with weak bones, but going closer to the places where the terrible people are invading us seems oxymoronic unless it's all hypocritical b.s.  And there's a reason "Florida Man" immediately puts an image in your head.

[mfmartin]

jfc

So you still didn’t click on the link?


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Barry McCockinner]

1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

he should've picked a different division then because he's gonna have to pay taxes on game checks in New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts. the AFC South is the tax haven of the NFL with Texas, Florida, Tennessee and Indiana.  Sign in that division and you are guaranteed at least 11 game checks with no state income tax.

[southparkcpa]

2 hours ago, Origen said:

They still have to pay the homeowners insurance in Miami, along with living in the flaming sh*thole called Florida.  "Where people think paying taxes to educate their children is bad"

Same tired old argument.   NY has become a cesspool, people realize it. My brother lives in Tampa, all 3 of his kids went to public schools, all scored 1400 plus on SATs.