Joe Douglas is not a "Terrible GM"

[Rob Moore]

I read somewhere that he wastes tons of money on weaponsss.

[BradSmith16fan]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

His record is bad, his drafts have been bad, his free agent signings have been bad, but he’s actually good. 

If any other gm in the league had the 2022 draft he had, what would you say? Plus Michael Carter II. Huff, Quincy Williams, and DJ Reed fa signings? His major error was Zach, but he got Rodgers to try and rectify. He's definitely not bad in my eyes.

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, Trotter said:

if i have this incorrect you have my apologies but aren't you the guy who for years has stated that Zach was a result of Woody and Zach's uncle with Jetblue?

IF your theory is true - JD has nothing to do with Zach nor could he change anything. Point is you can fault JD for alot but based on many of your threads, JD drafting, keeping Zach is not one of them

I’ve been told that’s a lie and we shouldn’t bring it up anymore. 

[Matt39]

2 minutes ago, BradSmith16fan said:

If any other gm in the league had the 2022 draft he had, what would you say? Plus Michael Carter II. Huff, Quincy Williams, and DJ Reed fa signings? His major error was Zach, but he got Rodgers to try and rectify. He's definitely not bad in my eyes.

The Jets offense and defense have more starters that were acquired than drafted.

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, bitonti said:

ok so I read your words

Do you think Joe Douglas deserves a raise? Because he's headed into the last year of his deal and guys like that either get a raise or get fired

 

Don't want to fire him because Woody's next hire will be a guaranteed flop on the level of Maccagnan.  No doubt about it.

So, I guess we're talking raise.  Assuming they win the division and/or make the playoffs this year and win a game when there (or at least look really good while losing).

If the season is a flop gotta clean house and start over regardless and just wait for Woody Johnson to depart from this mortal coil.

[Warfish]

He's better than what we had before him.

But he's a 5-season loser as a GM so far, with no winning seasons, and no playoff seasons.

His moves are decidedly meh overall, some good, many bad.  And his biggest moves, at QB, have failed so far (Zach, Rodgers last year).

All that said, I wouldn't advocate or suggest he be fired right now.  

His future rests on the field in 2024, end of story.  As it should be.

Win, and he stays with an extension.  Lose and he doesn't.  

No amount of threads or fan hype will change that. 

If you think he's so good, relax, surely his great-on-paper roster will win this year, make the playoffs, and earn him his extension, right?

[Green Ghost]

39 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Yes. Thats what I did here. I told everyone how good of a GM JD is....  that's my MO here...

 

"Not Terrible" ≠ "Good"

 

In my defense, the OP looked about 5 paragraphs too long for my feeble brain to digest, so I never read it and I just replied to the title of your thread instead.

[bicketybam]

45 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I appreciate your post. But compare his time here with what the Lions have done. That’s probably a fair benchmark. This team is also heavily built via FA, which is the sign of a poor GM.

The Lions had Stafford for 12 year and Goff for the last 3. Given the fact that they have had very good QB's for 15 straight years I'd say they've underachieved.

[bicketybam]

29 minutes ago, Testaverde9819 said:

He took away our best pass rusher and hasn't replaced him yet. 

 

He drafted the worst QB in NFL history number 2 overall

 

He drafted becton over maybe the best olineman in the NFL Whirfs

 

 

He took a RB high( bad draft philosophy)

He took a QB on day 3 ( bad draft philosophy)

 

He passed on an excellent QB class to draft a OT who isn't starting 

 

 

Do you want me to keep going???

 

 

Sure. You might actually get something right 👍 

[Green Ghost]

22 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

He certainly needs some wins to really have this conversation but so far so good at this point in this season. 

Are we really at a point in the season yet though, paisan?

[DonCorleone]

1 hour ago, nj meadowlands said:

He's 27-56 so

27-56 is ALL you have to know. Inexcusable no matter how bad the team that he took over was.

[nycdan]

13 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

The Jets offense and defense have more starters that were acquired than drafted.

In your rush to troll, you don't even check your own facts.

Based on jets.com depth chart, we have 6/12 Offensive starters we drafted and 7/12 Defensive starters we drafted. Plenty of their backups were drafted here as well (or UDFA).

I have no idea what the league average is or what it is for contending teams, but the Jets have a lot of players on their roster that they drafted, which is better than it used to be.

 

 

[Warfish]

Just a reminder,

This is the Jets Offensive Ranking so far in the "Joe Douglas Era" since his hiring prior to the 2019 season:

2019 - 31st/32nd
2020 - 32nd/32nd
2021 - 28th/26th
2022 - 29th/25th
2023 - 29th/31st

You can make excuses all you want, blame others all you want, but ultimately, the hiring and firing of a GM is based on the results on the field. 

Not rosters on paper in August.

While I agree that our O looks good on paper, it's going to have to do materially better than the rankings above to get JD an extension.

[Trotter]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

In your rush to troll, you don't even check your own facts.

Based on jets.com depth chart, we have 6/12 Offensive starters we drafted and 7/12 Defensive starters we drafted. Plenty of their backups were drafted here as well (or UDFA).

I have no idea what the league average is or what it is for contending teams, but the Jets have a lot of players on their roster that they drafted, which is better than it used to be.

 

 

so knowing the Jets have significantly improved the roster but others feel it was not because of JD and his drafts, maybe we should put the guy who acquired the talent outside the draft in the role of GM instead of JD.

 

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Is he great? Nope. Is he top 15? Not today. But is he "terrible"? "Incompetent"? "Downright awful and should be fired tomorrow"? No. 

 

Right now, the Jets Roster is considered a Top 10 roster in the league, not by me or other random Message board posters, but by MANY Football pundits, commentators:

 

- With 2024 training camp and the season around the corner, the 33rd Team website ranked the Jets roster as the sixth best in the league and the No. 1 defense.

- "If all goes right for the New York Jets in 2024, they could have an argument for ranking even higher on this list," NFL writer Ian Valentino stated. 

- "They have the league's top cornerback, Sauce Gardner," according to NFL Senior Writer Marcus Mosher. "Although he has only been in the NFL for two seasons, he's been a two-time All-Pro selection and the 2022 AP Defensive Rookie of the Year. But Gardner isn't the only reason the Jets rank so highly on this list. Quinnen Williams might be the NFL's best defensive tackle. He is just as good against the run as he is as a pass-rusher. Williams is only 26 and has improved every season. Williams and Gardner might be the NFL's best duo. "And don't forget about Quincy Williams, who is coming off an All-Pro season at linebacker. The Jets have three All-Pro defenders who are all in the primes of their careers. For that reason alone, they are No. 1 on our list."

-  According to Pro Football Focus (PFF), the Jets’ roster is ranked 4th best in the NFL for 2024 

- "Jets have top 5 roster heading into 2024: Aaron Rodgers is the most important player for the Jets and the biggest factor for a potential Super Bowl run, but the Jets have set themselves up with a group of players around Rodgers that make up one of the best rosters on paper in the NFL" The Sporting News 5/31/2024

 

Thats just a quick snapshot of what the "Media" is saying about the roster Douglas has built. "Terrible" GMs don't get those kinds of articles written about them. 

 

Is Joe Douglas perfect? Is he great? No, he is not. But right now, the Jets are drafting to the mean of the NFL, instead of being an outlier for futility. There are plenty of mid round guys playing significant roles on the team from the past few drafts, and aside from two GLARING, OBVIOUS misses, the drafting has been pretty darn good of late:

-2021 was a bit... rough (more on that later), but AVT is a starting OG and when healthy and left at his natural position, seems like a very high ceiling player. Michael Carter II (DB) is a very good player for the team, and Jamien Sherwood (5th rounder) seems like he's the heir apparent to CJ Mosley.

-2022 Speaks for itself.

-2023 is a work in progress, but Tippman looks to have overcome his shotgun snap problems and is the starting OC. Will McDonald was a head-scratcher but if he fills the role of DPR and can put together a 10+ sack season, he's a valuable commodity. Zaire Barnes is a seems like solid depth (that's more than you expect from the typical 6th Rounder). Israel Abanikanda seems to have been eclipsed by other new RBs, but he has size, speed, and has flashed as a runner.

-The 2024 draft seems to be trending in the right direction, but it's still too early to really know. Olu Fashanu may be a lockdown OT for a decade once Tyron Smith moves on and the rest of the draft has plenty of talent with Braelin Allen seemingly the stand-out.

 

And over that time, let's not dismiss the UDFA's the Jets have brought in that are significant contributors (or were) to the team... Huff, Gipson, Brownlee, etc. This current Jets FO has found more UDFA Talent in the last few years than the organization as a whole did in the 25 years prior - since probably Chrebet. 

 

Free Agency: What a mixed bag. Carl Lawson (whose existence someone only recently reminded me of) was a swing and a miss. Dude was always hurt. Corey Davis... bro... WHO could have predicted he would just flake out and retire? I'm sorry, I know we have some ambiguous, nebulous inferences that there was some type of "Family problem" or possible, speculative "Health Issue" that led to his random and ill-timed retirement... but still. Retire during Pre-Season? Really? With ZERO explanation? And then the Jets bend over backwards for the guy, to the point that they granted him a free and clear release because he said he wanted to be "close to home"... and he goes and tries out for THE BILLS on August 14th? Umm, What?? Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb were swings at meeting two needs, WR Depth and making AROD happy. Cobb is gone, and Lazard, well, he needs to get his sh*t together this year. FA is almost always a crap shoot, but aside the current O-Line with Moses, Smith, and Simpson, the team is mostly built off the draft at this point. If the O-Line is top 10 this year, the FA record starts looking a LOT better...

 

The BAD

The 2020 Draft is, in no uncertain terms, a black hole, with Ashtyn Davis the sole survivor of the virtual "Covid Draft". Mekhi Becton seemingly found every pre-draft concern and majored in them. His impressive size and athleticism at 6'7 365lbs made him look like the prototype and he was productive in college. But there were issues there the Jets couldn't overcome. Denzel Mims remains an enigma, as he is now currently completely out of the league. The rest of that draft is... forgettable. Total miss. 2020 was Douglas' first draft as THE GM of a team. It was a weird year. He was dealing with Adam Gase. It was 4 years ago. The roster has completely flipped since that draft, and the consequences have been navigated. 2020 was a terrible draft, and it seems like a lot of us still have a bit of a hangover from it since Becton was only recently let go, but it has not been indicative of the way the draft has gone since...

 

THE GIANT, UGLY ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM

No, it isn't Becton, JD himself, me, or The Crusher.... 2021 First Round Pick Zach Wilson completely hamstrung any progress and seemingly negated any other talent advantage the Roster had. He was grossly over-drafted. They had Darnold under contract, and while he was floundering, he still could have been the cheap bridge QB to build around for a year. The flaws in Wilsons game were on tape, but a very low-level schedule of opponents and a dominant O-Line made him look statistically better than he really was. He was immature. Small. And he sunk ANY potential the team had for 3 full seasons. It's hard to argue what the bigger mistake is... DRAFTING Wilson at #2 or continuing to reinforce the failure that he was displaying for his entire career in NY. SO far, much of the criticism Douglas receives is directly tied to #2. The win-loss record. The underperforming Offense. The "noise" and distractions. This was a move that should not have been made... but once it was and it was revealed very quickly that the team had no future moving forward with an underperforming, floundering QB, alternative solutions needed to be implemented (A disinterested Joe Flacco, Mike White, Tim Boyle, and Trevor Siemien are NOT "Serious" backup plans). The team chose to baby and coddle the player and sink the prospects of 52 other players, a Multi-Billion Dollar franchise, and massive fanbase for unclear reasons. Was that Douglas' doing, or higher up the chain of command? We probably won't find out for a while, BUT it happened on JD's watch, so he gets to lie in that bed. 

 

SO, taking EVERYTHING into account over the past 5 years since JD was hired in June of 2019... is he a "terrible" GM? I would say No, he is not. He had a VERY rough start and has managed to overcome it. He took a roster that in 2019 was on an XFL level and transformed it into an arguable Top 10 level collection of players in the course of 4 years. This was not a team a few pieces away, this was a roster and an organization that was suffering from organizational, systemic toxicity and insanity from the Gase years. A Team DEVOID of talent, not just undermanned. There were mistakes made (lol), but right now, they have seemingly largely overcome. The Defense is Top 3 in the league... possibly better (Get your ass to work, Reddick). The Offense has a LOT of talent... Garret Wilson and Breece Hall are game changers. Allen may also be at that level, tbh. Still a little thin at WR for my taste, but if Mike Williams is 85% of who he was for the Chargers and manages to stay mostly available, there is potential for the Offense to be top 10 - IF Rodgers stays upright. Thankfully, the O-Line seems as solid as its been since the Brick/Mangold days ON PAPER. We shall see... 

 

Oh, and a final note... and be honest. If you went back to 2021 and told yourself, yeah, it looks like we're hurting at QB, but in a few years, we're going to have Aaron Rodgers at QB going into a season with good Offensive Playmakers, a Game changing Running Back, and a top 3 defense... you would have said, "Where do I sign up?".

 

Anyway, that's all I have for today. Go away now...

 

 

 

Except for the critical drinker sign not so bad.  One thing left off is hiring saleh. I think we can give saleh credit for developing a defense but he also brought in his pal milfy.  Milfy was way over his head and shouldn’t have been hired.  And milfy is the guy who allegedly pounded the table to draft Zach.

[viffer]

1 hour ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Stated facts. 

No room for that on this forum. Only negativity is allowed.

[viffer]

1 hour ago, GreenFish said:

He, more often than not, makes good decisions. It hasn't translated because his decisions at QB haven't worked out. Zach was an all-time bust and Rodgers got hurt.

Zach he definitely gets the blame for (unless Woody Woodpecker picked him), but you cannot blame JD for Rodgers getting hurt. No one can predict that. You can argue he should have put together a better O-line, but not every QB behind a bad O-line gets injured, especially not 4 plays into the season. That was just bad luck (which we Jet fans should be accustomed to).

[jago]

perhaps mentioned above, but he also hired basically an all-rookie CS to train up a R1#2 qb clearly needing polishing, and put the kid in game 1. the team development was behind the 8-ball from the beginning.

[Green DNA]

1 hour ago, Dcat said:

 @Sperm Edwards' summary.

Isn't that an oxymoron or something?

[The Crusher]

40 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

Are we really at a point in the season yet though, paisan?

Shut up Ghost! This might be the best it gets!! Don't take this from me!!!!!

[Matt39]

45 minutes ago, nycdan said:

In your rush to troll, you don't even check your own facts.

Based on jets.com depth chart, we have 6/12 Offensive starters we drafted and 7/12 Defensive starters we drafted. Plenty of their backups were drafted here as well (or UDFA).

I have no idea what the league average is or what it is for contending teams, but the Jets have a lot of players on their roster that they drafted, which is better than it used to be.

 

 

 

4 starters on offense drafted

6 on defense (Quinnen was also absorbed)

For reference, the entire Packers offense was drafted besides Josh Jacobs. 10 players were drafted on their starting defense. Chiefs as well, over 90% of their starters are draft picks. 

[Matt39]

52 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

The Lions had Stafford for 12 year and Goff for the last 3. Given the fact that they have had very good QB's for 15 straight years I'd say they've underachieved.

Holmes was hired almost 2 years after Douglas was.

[bicketybam]

19 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Holmes was hired almost 2 years after Douglas was.

The point being is the Lions had top tier QB play.

[Plen T]

Clown Salad is a horrible coach, however 

sad Douglas may get canned because of this doofus

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Plen T said:

Clown Salad is a horrible coach, however 

sad Douglas may get canned because of this doofus

I mean....Douglas hired Saleh, so....

[Rhg1084]

I mean say what you want about his past but we currently have one of the best rosters in the league with a nucleus of young stud key guys. So I’ll chalk that up as a W. This team is built for sustained success, something we haven’t been able to say in a long time.

[BradSmith16fan]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

The Jets offense and defense have more starters that were acquired than drafted.

Wouldn't that mean he made decent fa signings?

 

[DoubleDown]

I wouldn't go as far as calling Joe Douglas a terrible GM, but...

If we are being honest, the record speaks for itself.  The team is well under .500 during his tenure, has zero division titles, and zero playoff appearances.  This isn't some case of a small sample size.  He's had control of this team for a long time by NFL standards.

The roster Joe Douglas has built, however good you want to label it in theory, simply hasn't translated to results on the field.  We can blame injuries, but that excuses taking durability, which is a key attribute of any given player, into consideration when building a team.  We can blame coaching, but Robert Saleh was hand picked by Joe Douglas.

Has Joe Douglas been a failure thus far?  Objectively speaking, yes.  Can this narrative shift if the current roster reaches its theoretical ceiling?  In my opinion, yes.

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

QB. QB. QB. QB. QB..... A QB that they traded for, that was considered "broken" that got his sh*t together. Thats the difference between the Jets and Lions.

 

A QB. 

 

Did I mention... QB?

QB and LT. Zach and Becton were the two big misses that may eventually cost JD his job if this year's team doesn't make the playoffs. Two epic misses that many on this board first guessed. 

Fortunately for JD, he was able to get two (historically excellent) veteran stopgaps to replace Zach and Becton (Aaron and Tyron). He needs those guys to ball this year and win him another contract.  

[Scott Dierking]

54 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

 

4 starters on offense drafted

6 on defense (Quinnen was also absorbed)

For reference, the entire Packers offense was drafted besides Josh Jacobs. 10 players were drafted on their starting defense. Chiefs as well, over 90% of their starters are draft picks. 

If I met my wife through Tinder rather than a casual acquaintanceship, does that make her a worse wife? 

My experience is no. 

[Lurker89]

 

But for my own reasons...

[Matt39]

34 minutes ago, BradSmith16fan said:

Wouldn't that mean he made decent fa signings?

 

Typically means the GM hasn’t drafted well enough and needs to fill holes by spending on damaged goods 

[BigRy56]

Just a few months before JD and Saleh get their extensions. Don’t shoot the messenger

[Claymation]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Just a reminder,

This is the Jets Offensive Ranking so far in the "Joe Douglas Era" since his hiring prior to the 2019 season:

2019 - 31st/32nd
2020 - 32nd/32nd
2021 - 28th/26th
2022 - 29th/25th
2023 - 29th/31st

You can make excuses all you want, blame others all you want, but ultimately, the hiring and firing of a GM is based on the results on the field. 

Not rosters on paper in August.

While I agree that our O looks good on paper, it's going to have to do materially better than the rankings above to get JD an extension.

I say it will. 

 

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, Claymation said:

I say it will. 

It should.

Heaven help us if it doesn't.