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TJ for Braylon very possible


leonwash29
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Thank you Mr. Love. Feels good to get some love on the forums every once in a while! :headbang:

Hey Villian, as I've said many times, nobody on Earth knows whether this draft was an A+ or an F-, but, as a question:

I agree with your whole assessment of the philosophy. I also love the Giants analogy, so at this time what would you rather have(assuming the rumors of the 2nd and 5th for Boldin were true):

Clemens/Ratliff-QB

Chris Wells OSU/TJ/Leon- your three headed monster

Boldin/Cothery-your WR's

Keller/3rd or 4th round- TE

OR

Sanchez-QB

TJ/Greene/Leon- 3 headed back

Cotchery/Stucky- your WR's

Keller/????- TE

I REITERATE, THIS IS JUST A SIMPLE QUESTION, no right or wrong answer here.Nor does it matter the spell is cast.

P.S.

Hey,Vikings, that's not the Brett Favre you think you remember.

Edited by lancemehl
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people tend to forget what thomas jones did for the jets.good runner,but one of his best qualities is that he has great hands and never fumbles.i think he fumbled once that i can remember last year,and that was because they had him strapped over a pile and one guy ripped the ball out(it even took a coupla seconds)

having greene be the majority ball carrier,i think the fumble ratio will skyrocket

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Why are people so high on Edwards? I don't want to give a big contract to a WR who's been among the league leaders, if not the leader, in drops pretty much every year he's been a pro. Even when he had that breakout season he was still among the top 2 or 3 in drops. He gives you almost as many negative plays as positive ones. Should I be impressed?

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people tend to forget what thomas jones did for the jets.good runner,but one of his best qualities is that he has great hands and never fumbles.i think he fumbled once that i can remember last year,and that was because they had him strapped over a pile and one guy ripped the ball out(it even took a coupla seconds)

having greene be the majority ball carrier,i think the fumble ratio will skyrocket

Nobody doubts that TJ is a good RB, although I doubt he will ever win another rushing title, we put ourselves in this position! Look at us,Plexico Burress?? We got Sanchez, hooray!! now what?

We're out of bullets. lol

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Is Edwards really that much more valuable than TJ that we need to throw in Smith and a draft pick? TJ led the afc last year in rushing, is always in shape, is a workhorse, doesn't fumble, scores TD's, blocks well, and will have quadruple the touches per game than Edwards at season's end. Also, it doesn't seem anyone's breaking down Mangini's door with offers for a guy who's a malcontent, drops balls and is still somewhat unproven to a degree. I'm okay with tossing in Smith, but I'd be a bit gunshy about giving up picks unless they are way down the board. Just curious as to where the value of vets is calculated besides the obvious age-factor.

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Nobody doubts that TJ is a good RB, although I doubt he will ever win another rushing title, we put ourselves in this position! Look at us,Plexico Burress?? We got Sanchez, hooray!! now what?

We're out of bullets. lol

Why do you keep saying that he won a rushing title... leading the AFC in rushing while 4 dudes in the NFC blow you out of the water in rushing yards is not a rushing title...

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Your original statement was that he "wasn't a 20 carry back". Is that view specific to Greene, or any rookie RB?

Greene isn't a "20 carry back" in his rookie season. That was the point. I think he can be a 20 carry back in the future, but in his rookie season it would be too much.

Look at the names JiF mentioned. The one with the most carries in a season as a rookie averaged slightly under 20 a game. The 20 carry back as a rookie is a rarity simply because of the propensity to wear down with such a high workload.

Again, I believe Greene will be the Jets feature RB in 2010 the latest so I'm all for getting rid of Jones so long as the Jets have a viable 3rd RB for the 3 headed monster.

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Greene isn't a "20 carry back" in his rookie season. That was the point. I think he can be a 20 carry back in the future, but in his rookie season it would be too much.

Look at the names JiF mentioned. The one with the most carries in a season as a rookie averaged slightly under 20 a game. The 20 carry back as a rookie is a rarity simply because of the propensity to wear down with such a high workload.

Again, I believe Greene will be the Jets feature RB in 2010 the latest so I'm all for getting rid of Jones so long as the Jets have a viable 3rd RB for the 3 headed monster.

We dont need a 3 headed monster. 2 Rbs and a solid number 1 receiver is better than a 3 headed monster, especially when Jones doesn't have many seasons left in him and Edwards does.

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We dont need a 3 headed monster. 2 Rbs and a solid number 1 receiver is better than a 3 headed monster, especially when Jones doesn't have many seasons left in him and Edwards does.

1) The Jets need a 3 headed monster

2) I want the Jets to trade Jones for Edwards

3) The 3rd RB can be anybody

The point--for the 20th time--is that in order to keep Greene fresh throughout the season he needs to share his caries with Leon and another back. That other back need not be Jones. It could be anybody.

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Is Edwards really that much more valuable than TJ that we need to throw in Smith and a draft pick? TJ led the afc last year in rushing, is always in shape, is a workhorse, doesn't fumble, scores TD's, blocks well, and will have quadruple the touches per game than Edwards at season's end. Also, it doesn't seem anyone's breaking down Mangini's door with offers for a guy who's a malcontent, drops balls and is still somewhat unproven to a degree. I'm okay with tossing in Smith, but I'd be a bit gunshy about giving up picks unless they are way down the board. Just curious as to where the value of vets is calculated besides the obvious age-factor.

Jones is a 30+ RB while Edwards is what, 25-26? Yes, Edwards is much more valuable than Jones.

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Jones is a 30+ RB while Edwards is what, 25-26? Yes, Edwards is much more valuable than Jones.

Exactly. But I dont understand why a 3 headed monster is necessary. It would be nice, but TJ for Edwards makes sense and we can manage with Greene and Leon, and perhaps we can pick someone up to fill in the third spot at RB along the way.

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On paper it looks great. IMO it is possible that Greene could turn out to be the best RB in this draft. As a RB he is excellent.

Few problems with it. As pointed out over the weekend Green can't catch, and is not a skilled pass blocker. Those things could come with time, but I don't think September is enough time.

From Ryan's comments it seems to me that Sanchez has a very strong chance to be the starter on opening day. Not sure I want to see the young franchise QB out there with no Blocking TE, and a RB who is sure to struggle in picking up a blitz.

Very tempting though.

I don't think I want a rookie QB out there with just Cotchery and Keller to throw to either.

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Jerome Bettis saw 44 touches in the last game of the season (for 217 yards) in his rookie year, ending up with 294 carries (and 26 receptions). Granted, he didn't get a ton of carries the first couple of games, but that's a heavy workload for a rookie and it didn't seem to affect him down the stretch.

Eddie George had 335 carries as a rookie starter (from Week 1) and finished with 20+ carries in 3 of his last 4 games.

Edgerrin James started all 16 games as a rookie and led the league in carries (369) and yards (1553) and caught 62 passes as well. He then added 20 carries in their postseason loss.

Curtis Martin had 368 carries as a rookie in 16 games, 4 of which saw him carry the ball over 30 times.

This whole debate is pointless because we would still have Leon Washington. I could see them both getting about 15 carries a game each, with the numbers fluctuating on who is playing better in that particular game.

There is absolutely no reason Greene needs to have anywhere near 30 carries a game this year.

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This whole debate is pointless because we would still have Leon Washington. I could see them both getting about 15 carries a game each, with the numbers fluctuating on who is playing better in that particular game.

There is absolutely no reason Greene needs to have anywhere near 30 carries a game this year.

If we were to deal Jones for Edwards, Greene would become the starting back, no doubt about it. At that point it would force the Jets hand to keep Jehuu Caulcrick, who they like (or at least Mangini did), as their third string back/back-up FB to Tony Richardson. I could see the number of carries looking like along the lines of:

Shonn Greene: 15-20 carries per game

Leon Washington: 10-15 carries per game

Jehuu Caulcrick: 5-10 carries per game

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If we were to deal Jones for Edwards, Greene would become the starting back, no doubt about it. At that point it would force the Jets hand to keep Jehuu Caulcrick, who they like (or at least Mangini did), as their third string back/back-up FB to Tony Richardson. I could see the number of carries looking like along the lines of:

Shonn Greene: 15-20 carries per game

Leon Washington: 10-15 carries per game

Jehuu Caulcrick: 5-10 carries per game

You left out: Brad Smith and Stuckey who'd net 3 carries a game. Anyway, Caulrick's not getting more than 1-2 a game if he can get himself off the practice squad.

If the Jets traded Jones they'd sign someone else's late camp cut or sign a guy like Edg James.

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If we were to deal Jones for Edwards, Greene would become the starting back, no doubt about it. At that point it would force the Jets hand to keep Jehuu Caulcrick, who they like (or at least Mangini did), as their third string back/back-up FB to Tony Richardson. I could see the number of carries looking like along the lines of:

Shonn Greene: 15-20 carries per game

Leon Washington: 10-15 carries per game

Jehuu Caulcrick: 5-10 carries per game

If Brannan Southerland makes the team Caulcrick will be cut.

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You left out: Brad Smith and Stuckey who'd net 3 carries a game. Anyway, Caulrick's not getting more than 1-2 a game if he can get himself off the practice squad.

If the Jets traded Jones they'd sign someone else's late camp cut or sign a guy like Edg James.

I agree the Jets would likely sign someone else, but it certainly won't be someone like Edg James.

James thinks he's still a feature back. He'd want 15 to 20 carries a game which the Jets won't give him.

It will either be someone the Jets like out of the young vets, UDFA, or older lower tier vet.

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Why do you keep saying that he won a rushing title... leading the AFC in rushing while 4 dudes in the NFC blow you out of the water in rushing yards is not a rushing title...

you know what i mean. gimme a break. change every time(which is i think once, i said "rushing title" and change it to led the AFC, and also add that I repeatedly said, he "blew his load" "had a career year" and "it was mainly due to the line, because TJ is very average"

I actually changed my tune from 07 when i called him Kevan Barlow.

Believe me, I know what he did in '08.

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I repeatedly said, he "blew his load" "had a career year" and "it was mainly due to the line, because TJ is very average"

I don't buy it. Those statements are all true. And more to the point coherent.

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a "run first", smashmouth, defensiveminded football team that gave away the whole draft for a QB!! LOL I love it!

Dammm, Clemens and Ratliff must have both succkkked BIGTIME!!

Na, I dont think that the QB's sucked big time. I think it was more the fact that we released our franchise Qb (Penny) to get a one year QB (Favre) and we have three unproven QB's at the time that we just bought in our new head coach. I think Rex wants to make his "Mark" on the team if you know what I mean. At the very same, this is a run first football team because this is what Rex has stated he wanted it to be. I'm simply going by the information here. He gave away the whole draft for a QB AND a Runningback...you forgot that part though playa. They traded up to get Greene and I think they gave up like 3 picks to get him.

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Hey Villian, as I've said many times, nobody on Earth knows whether this draft was an A+ or an F-, but, as a question:

I agree with your whole assessment of the philosophy. I also love the Giants analogy, so at this time what would you rather have(assuming the rumors of the 2nd and 5th for Boldin were true):

Clemens/Ratliff-QB

Chris Wells OSU/TJ/Leon- your three headed monster

Boldin/Cothery-your WR's

Keller/3rd or 4th round- TE

OR

Sanchez-QB

TJ/Greene/Leon- 3 headed back

Cotchery/Stucky- your WR's

Keller/????- TE

I REITERATE, THIS IS JUST A SIMPLE QUESTION, no right or wrong answer here.Nor does it matter the spell is cast.

P.S.

Hey,Vikings, that's not the Brett Favre you think you remember.

Honestly, i'd rather have this set up...

Clemens/Ratliff-QB

Chris Wells OSU/TJ/Leon- your three headed monster

Boldin/Cothery-your WR's

Keller/3rd or 4th round- TE

unfortunately, this isnt the case. I think Ratliff would have been a great fit and we could have really added depth with all the draft picks that we gave away this year...dont get me wrong. Im simply talking about the trade of TJ for Braylon. I just dont think its going to happen GIVEN the way we drafted this year. We could have easily drafted a WR/TE/DE in the first round, and got Greene in the second round and added more depth with the other 4 picks. It looks like Rex wants to establish a solid running game while getting a QB through the draft that he feels confident with. He doesnt have the confidence in Ratliff (traded) and Clemens (Benched for a rookie).

My honest opinion, If we were to have moved up to the 5 spot, I would have rathered gotten BJ Raji or Michael Crabtree than Sanchez....but thats simply my bias for Ratliff. Overall, I think that testing out a unproven WR like Clowney at a #1/#2 is less of a risk in Rex eyes than testing out Clemens who didnt show promise the first time and Ratliff is was undrafted and was getting beat in the voluntary workouts from what I hear this year.

Lastly, Boldin isnt the fastest WR either, his hands are sick, but he probably has the same speed as cotch. Rex probably didnt go for him because Clowney has the element of atleast stretching the field. That will allow cotch to do his thing as Keller to play the under-route and Washington take advantage of the mis-match. I wouldnt say that this Draft was an A+ ONLY because football season hasnt started, but if Clowney is who we think he could be and Sanchez pans out....HOLY COW!

P.S. Lance...what up baby boy!

Edited by villain_the_foe
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Na, I dont think that the QB's sucked big time. I think it was more the fact that we released our franchise Qb (Penny) to get a one year QB (Favre) and we have three unproven QB's at the time that we just bought in our new head coach. I think Rex wants to make his "Mark" on the team if you know what I mean. At the very same, this is a run first football team because this is what Rex has stated he wanted it to be. I'm simply going by the information here. He gave away the whole draft for a QB AND a Runningback...you forgot that part though playa. They traded up to get Greene and I think they gave up like 3 picks to get him.

Hold up, VTF, that's not the question I wanted you to answer, LOL

Look, I agree with you AND I didn't like the move, but I can definitely see the comparisons to the Giants and the Ravens. I can see Rex trying to recreate the exact team he left, (BTW that's what Mangini did, but Rex has bada$$ defenses on HIS resume, Mangini didn't have a resume, Belicheck got him in through the back)

going back to the poll, I see us getting a lot of B's as far as a draft grade so our 80% is right on. And I thought this board was a bit homer-ish, my fault.

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Na, I dont think that the QB's sucked big time. I think it was more the fact that we released our franchise Qb (Penny) to get a one year QB (Favre) and we have three unproven QB's at the time that we just bought in our new head coach. I think Rex wants to make his "Mark" on the team if you know what I mean. At the very same, this is a run first football team because this is what Rex has stated he wanted it to be. I'm simply going by the information here. He gave away the whole draft for a QB AND a Runningback...you forgot that part though playa. They traded up to get Greene and I think they gave up like 3 picks to get him.

I know people like to throw the word franchise around, but Pennington?

FWIW, Gary Myers said that Clemens and Ratliff "stunk up the joint". http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2009/05/02/2009-05-02_all_signs_point_to_brett_favre_returning_to_nfl_with_the_vikings.html

With these receivers they'd better be a run first team no matter who is at QB

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Honestly, i'd rather have this set up...

Clemens/Ratliff-QB

Chris Wells OSU/TJ/Leon- your three headed monster

Boldin/Cothery-your WR's

Keller/3rd or 4th round- TE

unfortunately, this isnt the case. I think Ratliff would have been a great fit and we could have really added depth with all the draft picks that we gave away this year...dont get me wrong. Im simply talking about the trade of TJ for Braylon. I just dont think its going to happen GIVEN the way we drafted this year. We could have easily drafted a WR/TE/DE in the first round, and got Greene in the second round and added more depth with the other 4 picks. It looks like Rex wants to establish a solid running game while getting a QB through the draft that he feels confident with. He doesnt have the confidence in Ratliff (traded) and Clemens (Benched for a rookie).

My honest opinion, If we were to have moved up to the 5 spot, I would have rathered gotten BJ Raji or Michael Crabtree than Sanchez....but thats simply my bias for Ratliff. Overall, I think that testing out a unproven WR like Clowney at a #1/#2 is less of a risk in Rex eyes than testing out Clemens who didnt show promise the first time and Ratliff is was undrafted and was getting beat in the voluntary workouts from what I hear this year.

Lastly, Boldin isnt the fastest WR either, his hands are sick, but he probably has the same speed as cotch. Rex probably didnt go for him because Clowney has the element of atleast stretching the field. That will allow cotch to do his thing as Keller to play the under-route and Washington take advantage of the mis-match. I wouldnt say that this Draft was an A+ ONLY because football season hasnt started, but if Clowney is who we think he could be and Sanchez pans out....HOLY COW!

P.S. Lance...what up baby boy!

Best poster on this board, right there. That's it in a nut shell.

The ONLY thing that sways me a tiny bit on the trade is the chance of TJ holding out and causing problems. He just not good enough for that.

But besides that:

"if Clowney is who we think he could be and Sanchez pans out....HOLY COW! "

then we'll start dishing out grades.

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Best poster on this board, right there. That's it in a nut shell.

The ONLY thing that sways me a tiny bit on the trade is the chance of TJ holding out and causing problems. He just not good enough for that.

But besides that:

"if Clowney is who we think he could be and Sanchez pans out....HOLY COW! "

then we'll start dishing out grades.

I think if that trade does go through then The Browns will be restructuring Jones contract just like the Jets would be restructuring Edwards.

If that trade happens I would be more than just very suprised. I think that it would be a wrong move on the Jets part. Let TJ bitch about the money, bottomline is, he's gotten paid almost 15 million and he's on the wrong side of 30. Outside of football, its business and he knows that. Rex and Tanny wont do what they did for Coles last year just to release him the next.

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I think if that trade does go through then The Browns will be restructuring Jones contract just like the Jets would be restructuring Edwards.

If that trade happens I would be more than just very suprised. I think that it would be a wrong move on the Jets part. Let TJ bitch about the money, bottomline is, he's gotten paid almost 15 million and he's on the wrong side of 30. Outside of football, its business and he knows that. Rex and Tanny wont do what they did for Coles last year just to release him the next.

Actually, seeing as TJ is due a $6 million roster bonus next year and the Jets just drafted Shonn Green, I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of TJ being a Jet in 2010. That is why he is pushing for a restructure. He feels his value is at its peak coming off a career year and he wants to be rewarded for it because it is probably his last chance at a big hit of guaranteed money. The Jets hold all the cards though as he is under contract and if he starts missing mandatory activities he gets fined and now they have his assumed replacement on the roster.

The only way TJ is gonna get what he wants is if the Jets trade him before camp.

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If we were to deal Jones for Edwards, Greene would become the starting back, no doubt about it. At that point it would force the Jets hand to keep Jehuu Caulcrick, who they like (or at least Mangini did), as their third string back/back-up FB to Tony Richardson. I could see the number of carries looking like along the lines of:

Shonn Greene: 15-20 carries per game

Leon Washington: 10-15 carries per game

Jehuu Caulcrick: 5-10 carries per game

I get the concept, but you're way off the mark.

Last year the Jets were a strong rushing team, but TJ averaged about 18 carries a game, and Leon about 5. That's 23 carries, here you're talking about 30-45 carries a game average? Ain't gonna happen.

This is also why I didn't see the point of drafting any RB, much less trading up for one, but if they can move TJ it'll all work out.

Everyone wants Leon to probably double his carries. If he's paired with Greene, that'll probably happen. He'll be on the field for a lot of screens, too (Greene's reportedly useless as a receiver), and they'll need to mix it up with him. So if Leon gets up to 10 carries a game, and Shonn's getting 15, the Jets are rushing the football more than they did last year. There's really no room for any other back to get major carries (barring injury). Richardson, Caulcrick, whoever, would all likely be under 20 carries for the season.

So the whole 20-30 carries thing is completely bogus anyway. No reason Greene can't carry it 15 times a game. That's a 240 carry season. That's plenty.

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I think if that trade does go through then The Browns will be restructuring Jones contract just like the Jets would be restructuring Edwards.

If that trade happens I would be more than just very suprised. I think that it would be a wrong move on the Jets part.

Thomas Jones was worth a third rounder two years ago. Edwards was worth a second, a fifth, and Dominik Hixon two weeks ago. This really isn't hard. The trade is ridiculously lopsided in our favor and would be so even if Jones was literally the only running back on our roster. And/or good.

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slats, that was with Brett Favre as the Quarterback (averaging 23-25 carries a game), a veteran, a gunslinger. A guy who needs the ball in his hands to succeed. When you throw a rookie Quarterback like Mark Sanchez into the fire, the only way you're going to win is if you're a run first team and the Quarterback, for the most part, is there to manage the game. Take a look at the Ravens last year.

McGahee: 11 carries per game

McClain: 14 carries per game

Rice: 7 carries per game

Add that up and you've got an average of 32 carries a game, with Joe Flacco managing the rest of the time. That is going to be the EXACT same game plan that Rex Ryan is going to bring to New York with his rookie Quarterback. Expect the Jets number of rushing attemps per game with ther 1-3 backs to be between 30 and 40 per game.

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slats, that was with Brett Favre as the Quarterback (averaging 23-25 carries a game), a veteran, a gunslinger. A guy who needs the ball in his hands to succeed. When you throw a rookie Quarterback like Mark Sanchez into the fire, the only way you're going to win is if you're a run first team and the Quarterback, for the most part, is there to manage the game. Take a look at the Ravens last year.

McGahee: 11 carries per game

McClain: 14 carries per game

Rice: 7 carries per game

Add that up and you've got an average of 32 carries a game, with Joe Flacco managing the rest of the time. That is going to be the EXACT same game plan that Rex Ryan is going to bring to New York with his rookie Quarterback. Expect the Jets number of rushing attemps per game with ther 1-3 backs to be between 30 and 40 per game.

I hear what you're saying, but I still disagree.

The Jets have pretty consistently averaged around 440 rushing attempts per year over the last few years. There was no big downturn with Favre at the helm. The exception was in 2005 when Brooks Bollinger was the team's #1 QB - that year their rushing totals were significantly less. About 385 or so carries.

A stuggling QB leads to few offensive plays, which leads to fewer rushing attempts. They might be able to inch their totals up a little bit, but even 30 carries a game would bring them up to 480 carries on the year. And that's unlikely. They'll need Sanchez to play well enough to keep the other team honest, and they'll need their dee to get off the field quickly, too. We don't quite have Baltimore's dee just yet, and we've still got Schottenheimer running the offense.

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