Referendum on Rich Cimini vs JetNation insider Mogglez on who we draft.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, TuscanyTile2 said:

If the Giants trade the pick to the Bills then you're definitely right.  The Bills and Jets would take QBs at 2 and 3, leaving Saquon for the Browns at 4. 

If the Giants keep the pick then the Browns have to think about Saquon at #1 because he might be gone at #2.  In such a case, it's possible that the Browns will take Darnold #1 and then they'll be the ones who trade with the Bills at the #4 pick.

Basically the whole top of the draft completely depends on the Giants.

I agree the giants control the draft.  And they would be wise to take a qb, Eli is done.

[ScarletKnight89]

If the Jets pick Josh Allen they better hope that Teddy Bridgewater can be the real deal. It's a huge mistake that will get Macc fired. The guy has all the physical ability in the world but the numbers just aren't there. Why is that? That would turn me away from him. Don't be the team that falls for him. Hopefully Macc learned from the Hack mistake. If he puts all his eggs in the Allen basket then he deserves the fate that awaits him.

I want Mayfield. I can live with Rosen because I think he has the ability to be good as well. Darnold won't be available. Stay clear of Allen.

 

[nycdan]

15 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

If the Jets pick Josh Allen they better hope that Teddy Bridgewater can be the real deal. It's a huge mistake that will get Macc fired. The guy has all the physical ability in the world but the numbers just aren't there. Why is that? That would turn me away from him. Don't be the team that falls for him. Hopefully Macc learned from the Hack mistake. If he puts all his eggs in the Allen basket then he deserves the fate that awaits him.

I want Mayfield. I can live with Rosen because I think he has the ability to be good as well. Darnold won't be available. Stay clear of Allen.

 

If Darnold and Rosen go 1/2, the ballsy move would be to take Barkley and then offer to swap him to CLE or DEN for their next pick plus a 2nd rounder.  You have to be happy ending up with Barkley in that case, and believe Bridgewater plus Barkley is better than Allen or Mayfield and Crowell.  

I know this isn't going to happen but man, if we knew CLE wanted Barkely that badly, and they have so many picks to throw around, wouldn't that be interesting.  If Macc *could* pull it off, he'd be instantly elevated to our favorite GM ever.

A slightly less insane version of this is to offer to trade the 3 pick to DEN, see if they are interested, and then use that to try to squeeze something out of CLE.  

[RSJ]

If Darnold and Rosen go 1/2, the ballsy move would be to take Barkley and then offer to swap him to CLE or DEN for their next pick plus a 2nd rounder.  You have to be happy ending up with Barkley in that case, and believe Bridgewater plus Barkley is better than Allen or Mayfield and Crowell.  
I know this isn't going to happen but man, if we knew CLE wanted Barkely that badly, and they have so many picks to throw around, wouldn't that be interesting.  If Macc *could* pull it off, he'd be instantly elevated to our favorite GM ever.
A slightly less insane version of this is to offer to trade the 3 pick to DEN, see if they are interested, and then use that to try to squeeze something out of CLE.  

Barkley is the only non QB I would be fine with at that pick.


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[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

I agree with this.  I think the giants are taking him, period.

C'mon. At #2 overall, in a draft with as many as an unprecedented 4 QBs projected in the top 5, they're taking a guaaaahahahhahaha

There is only 1 way the Giants stay at #2 and pass up on a QB. One way only: when it's time for their pick at #2, they don't think there's a high probability any of those available are franchise QBs they'll regret passing on. 

Even if that happens, as likely as not they'll trade down at that time. Surely they know better than to pass up an opportunity for 3 #1 picks (and maybe a little more tossed in) from the Bills so they can draft a RB to pair with Eli's last year or two. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

C'mon. At #2 overall, in a draft with as many as an unprecedented 4 QBs projected in the top 5, they're taking a guaaaahahahhahaha

There is only 1 way the Giants stay at #2 and pass up on a QB. One way only: when it's time for their pick at #2, they don't think there's a high probability any of those available are franchise QBs they'll regret passing on. 

Even if that happens, as likely as not they'll trade down at that time. Surely they know better than to pass up an opportunity for 3 #1 picks (and maybe a little more tossed in) from the Bills so they can draft a RB to pair with Eli's last year or two. 

I'm saying the giants take Rosen.  It makes too much sense for them.  

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I'm saying the giants take Rosen.  It makes too much sense for them.  

I know, and agree he's probably no lower than #2 on their big board (behind only Darnold, if even that).

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

I know, and agree.

I think this all comes down to whether the browns think darnold is so good that they can't pass him up, or whether they love allen's upside and would let him sit for a year.  

[jack48]

7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

B at 3.I'm saying the giants take Rosen.  It makes too much sense for them.  

I am always nervous about brittle guys.  So I am conflicted on a Rosen pick.  If Barkley is a generational back, though, I cannot help but think the Giants or the Browns would be really interested. Most running backs are a dime a dozen, but some are impact. I suppose it really comes down to what the Giants actually think about their kid QB.  The Browns are in a quandary, knowing the Jets go QB at 3. They probably have to go QB at 1.

[jack48]

57 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I agree the giants control the draft.  And they would be wise to take a qb, Eli is done.

Probably a new coach bringing a system in, wanting to make a positive impression(See Todd Blowes), would probably like to have an accomplished vet to introduce his system.  Eli is still viable with protection.  He is healthy, reasonably accurate, and has showed himself to be at his best in high profile situations.  He is also the darling of the Mara front office.  I don't think it is a sure thing.  They could trade the pick.  Maybe Denver?  I do not see them trading down to 12 or 18 or whatever.

[Smashmouth]

19 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

You guys can’t do math. Having the third pick, knowing the Giants don’t need a QB = getting 1 of the top 2.

How Old is Eli again ? The Giants may very well take a QB

[section314]

19 minutes ago, jack48 said:

I am always nervous about brittle guys.  So I am conflicted on a Rosen pick.  If Barkley is a generational back, though, I cannot help but think the Giants or the Browns would be really interested. Most running backs are a dime a dozen, but some are impact. I suppose it really comes down to what the Giants actually think about their kid QB.  The Browns are in a quandary, knowing the Jets go QB at 3. They probably have to go QB at 1.

Agree, the Jets forced their hand. 

[nycdan]

41 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

C'mon. At #2 overall, in a draft with as many as an unprecedented 4 QBs projected in the top 5, they're taking a guaaaahahahhahaha

There is only 1 way the Giants stay at #2 and pass up on a QB. One way only: when it's time for their pick at #2, they don't think there's a high probability any of those available are franchise QBs they'll regret passing on. 

Even if that happens, as likely as not they'll trade down at that time. Surely they know better than to pass up an opportunity for 3 #1 picks (and maybe a little more tossed in) from the Bills so they can draft a RB to pair with Eli's last year or two. 

Here's a trade I'd love to see.  CLE trades up from 4 to 2 so they can get both of their guys.  Giants can pull in multiple picks including another high 2nd rounder which then frees them up to take Nelson at 4.  If any team needs Nelson badly enough to take him that high, it's the Giants.

They could also move down to 5 but I don't see DEN wanting to trade up that badly unless Elway is completely in love with either Allen or Rosen to the extent that nobody else is even close.  I'm also not even sure DEN will take a QB this year.  Keenum is just good enough to argue they don't need to.  But Elway might love Barkley enough to do it as well even though we haven't heard much about that.

[Mogglez]

4 hours ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

a JN poster with supposed "links" to the KGB @Mogglez also has a "friend" working within the Jets "organization"

based on the OP, Mogglez says the Jets top 3 QBs in the draft are; Rosen, Darnold, and Mayfield but Cimini thinks Allen ranks over Mayfield - what say you?

 

4 hours ago, SAR I said:

I say we're going to have to jump over the Giants to get Rosen, so watch for us to make a trade with the Browns 60 seconds into the draft.  Or, watch for the Browns to take Rosen, the Giants to take Barkley, and then the Jets drafting Darnold to trade immediately to the Browns for Rosen.

Pick a scenario, if the Jets want Rosen they are going to have to jump the Giants to get him.

SAR I

Gotta be honest.

I'm starting to get a gut feeling that it's Allen over Mayfield right now.  However, what doesn't appear to be debatable is whether or not they want Rosen.  They do.  The Giants, ultimately, will decide whether or not that happens.  Personally, I'm praying he falls to our pick at 3 or Maccagnan ultimately decides Mayfield is his 3rd QB.

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 

Gotta be honest.

I'm starting to get a feeling that it's Allen over Mayfield right now.  However, what isn't a debate is whether or not they want Rosen.  They do.  The Giants hold our dates in their hands.

Giants seem to have 4 possible options:

1) Draft Rosen (or whichever QB they want the most after CLE picks one)

2) Draft Barkley

3) Trade down to #4 and draft Nelson (I've covered this in other threads but if they want Nelson and CLE wants Barkley, this trade makes a lot of sense)

4) Trade down to #4 and take the 3rd QB.  If they are close on Allen vs. Rosen, this would get them some good draft capital which they can really use at the cost of leaving their choice of QB up to the Jets at 3.  I think this one least likely, but not impossible.  

They key to 3 and 4 is whether CLE is willing to risk letting the Giants take Barkley or willing to trade some of their formidable pot of picks to guarantee they get the two guys they want.  Giants could also consider trading down to 5 but only if the guy they want is Nelson and they are happy with Barkley as a consolation prize if CLE takes him at 4.  

[SAR I]

13 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 

Gotta be honest.

I'm starting to get a feeling that it's Allen over Mayfield right now.  However, what doesn't appear to be debatable is whether or not they want Rosen.  They do.  The Giants, ultimately, will decide whether or not that happens.  Personally, I'm praying he falls to our pick at 3.

Do you get the feeling that it's Rosen-Or-Bust for the Jets?  If so, would they not try to jump the Giants and get the #1 to put the whole thing to bed?

Or is it your sense that the Jets aren't targeting Rosen because they know he'll be gone and instead it's Allen vs. Darnold vs. Mayfield?  I'm just wondering how focused the Jets are on getting Rosen at all costs -or- if they either view him as not as good as the others or just no chance at getting him....

SAR I

[Mogglez]

31 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Do you get the feeling that it's Rosen-Or-Bust for the Jets?  If so, would they not try to jump the Giants and get the #1 to put the whole thing to bed?

Or is it your sense that the Jets aren't targeting Rosen because they know he'll be gone and instead it's Allen vs. Darnold vs. Mayfield?  I'm just wondering how focused the Jets are on getting Rosen at all costs -or- if they either view him as not as good as the others or just no chance at getting him....

SAR I

By all accounts and rumors, we did try and jump the Giants and even reached out to make a trade with them.  Unfortunately, I don't know much about the Giants, but the 1st was never actually up for grabs.  Going back across town l, either the Giants were asking for an obscene amount, didn't want to trade withing the Jets (I don't buy this idea), or are already locked in on someone.  The thing is, that someone, just from looking around, could be Barkley, it could be Rosen, or it could be Nelson, who many people believe Denver might take at this point because their top choices could be gone by the time they pick.  That would mean a trade below 5 could really screw them.  However, they might decide to re-think that who unattainable angle now that the value of that pick just skyrocketed.  It's gonna be wildly unpredictable for a bit. 

As for your other question, Rosen absolutely appears to be in a tier on his own.  Whether or not he'll be there doesn't seem to be known by anyone just yet, but they wanted to make sure that if he does slip to 3, they were in position to get him. If not?  Get the best of the rest, who they love.

[legler82]

18 hours ago, Jetsbb said:

Benjamin Albright also saying its Josh Allen over Mayfield

 

[Dcat]

22 hours ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

I like Mogglez list better; Rosen, Mayfield and Darnold - almost glad the decision is not Mac's, let the chips fall 

you may have a point there.

But since there are 4 top QB prospects then at aminimum, Mac will have to choose between 2 of them.  At best, it will be a decision among 3 of them.  

[jetstream23]

22 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

You guys can’t do math. Having the third pick, knowing the Giants don’t need a QB = getting 1 of the top 2.

That assumes the Giants pick 2nd.  I think the Giants end up picking 4th after Cleveland takes Barkley and then tries a power move from 4 to 2.  Just a hunch.

[jetstream23]

19 hours ago, varjet said:

The Giants are not giving the Jets anything. Either they take the qb or trade the pick.  Watch the Broncos. 

Bingo.  If the Giants want Barkley and he goes #1 then the Giants will move down to #5 with Denver and take somebody like Nelson or Chubb IMO.  If the Giants want a QB then they're just staying put.

As much love and faith in Eli as there seems to be from Giants ownership, fans and possibly the GM, I just can't see them passing up on a potential franchise QB when the question is whether Eli has 2 or 3 decent years left, not 5 or 6.  Passing up a franchise QB to appease Eli for 2 years is not how you run a football team IMO.  The Jets have spent heavy Draft capital for the next two years in order to potentially get the 3rd best QB in the Draft.  The Giants would be foolish to pass up the 2nd or possibly 1st QB in the Draft simply because they don't think they'll need one until 2020.  BUT, I hope that's what they do.  

[jetspenguin]

Strange I dont see anyone picking the giants to pick Allen and I think he makes the most sense for them considering they still have Eli for at least a year or two and Allen will need some time, he has the arm to play in the north east and is being touted as "special". 

I can see 1. Darnold, 2. Allen, 3. Mayfield or Rosen

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, jack48 said:

I am always nervous about brittle guys.  So I am conflicted on a Rosen pick.  If Barkley is a generational back, though, I cannot help but think the Giants or the Browns would be really interested. Most running backs are a dime a dozen, but some are impact. I suppose it really comes down to what the Giants actually think about their kid QB.  The Browns are in a quandary, knowing the Jets go QB at 3. They probably have to go QB at 1.

A solid + potentially great QB trumps a “generational” RB (which frankly was said about the top RB in each of the last 2 drafts, and some said in the draft before that). Regardless, the difference between an alleged “generational” RB and a (merely) really good one isn’t worth passing up a young FQB for the next decade-plus. Sure it’s possible the Giants take Barkley, but it’d be a shortsighted selection. They aren’t winning a SB with Eli, and take it from any Jets fan that the franchise’s next good one might not come around for another decade or two. The only way the Giants shouldn’t take a QB at #2 is if they trade down for a trio of #1 picks, where a QB still goes 2nd but just to a different team. I wish it wasn’t so, and the draft does start out Allen-Barkley at 1-2, but I’ll believe that when I see it.

There’s still a lot that can change between now and the draft, but with the Jets trading up, Cleveland should be taking their top QB at #1 (as you say), and Barkley should still be there for them at #4. The Jets aren’t trading down, are a mortal lock to take a QB, and I don’t see anyone paying the price to trade up to #2 for any non-QB in this draft (no matter how great Barkley’s supposed to be). Even if the Giants did somehow take Barkley 2nd, it’s still a pretty awesome consolation prize of Chubb lining up opposite Garrett to torture opposing QBs from both sides like Merriman/Phillips (except without even blitzing, in Wade’s 4-man front).

The potential downside for the Jets - ultimately all we really care about - is that we’d have to cross our fingers and hope the 3rd QB taken is still plenty good enough, and was worth trading up to get, even if he isn’t the best one in the class. Hey, at least we get a year reprieve from coming away from round 1 with another “BAP regardless of positional importance” stupidity. 

[jack48]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

A solid + potentially great QB trumps a “generational” RB (which frankly was said about the top RB in each of the last 2 drafts, and some said in the draft before that). Regardless, the difference between an alleged “generational” RB and a (merely) really good one isn’t worth passing up a young FQB for the next decade-plus. Sure it’s possible the Giants take Barkley, but it’d be a shortsighted selection. They aren’t winning a SB with Eli, and take it from any Jets fan that the franchise’s next good one might not come around for another decade or two. The only way the Giants shouldn’t take a QB at #2 is if they trade down for a trio of #1 picks, where a QB still goes 2nd but just to a different team. I wish it wasn’t so, and the draft does start out Allen-Barkley at 1-2, but I’ll believe that when I see it.

There’s still a lot that can change between now and the draft, but with the Jets trading up, Cleveland should be taking their top QB at #1 (as you say), and Barkley should still be there for them at #4. The Jets aren’t trading down, are a mortal lock to take a QB, and I don’t see anyone paying the price to trade up to #2 for any non-QB in this draft (no matter how great Barkley’s supposed to be). Even if the Giants did somehow take Barkley 2nd, it’s still a pretty awesome consolation prize of Chubb lining up opposite Garrett to torture opposing QBs from both sides like Merriman/Phillips (except without even blitzing, in Wade’s 4-man front).

The potential downside for the Jets - ultimately all we really care about - is that we’d have to cross our fingers and hope the 3rd QB taken is still plenty good enough, and was worth trading up to get, even if he isn’t the best one in the class. Hey, at least we get a year reprieve from coming away from round 1 with another “BAP regardless of positional importance” stupidity. 

I still keep hearing some commentators saying the Giants don't go QB.  But if that is the case, I agree they will probably trade.  We get QB #3.  Whoever that is.

[jack48]

Just now, jack48 said:

I still keep hearing some commentators saying the Giants don't go QB.  But if that is the case, I agree they will probably trade.  We get QB #3.  Whoever that is.  The other part of it is, is QB3 way better than QB4?  We probably would have missed on all 4 at 6, though.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, nycdan said:

Here's a trade I'd love to see.  CLE trades up from 4 to 2 so they can get both of their guys.  Giants can pull in multiple picks including another high 2nd rounder which then frees them up to take Nelson at 4.  If any team needs Nelson badly enough to take him that high, it's the Giants.

They could also move down to 5 but I don't see DEN wanting to trade up that badly unless Elway is completely in love with either Allen or Rosen to the extent that nobody else is even close.  I'm also not even sure DEN will take a QB this year.  Keenum is just good enough to argue they don't need to.  But Elway might love Barkley enough to do it as well even though we haven't heard much about that.

Yeah, but I don’t think they have to do anything to get both their guys. If the Giants trade down, they should do something with a team like Buffalo for 3 #1 picks and change. Otherwise they’d be smart to stay pat and take the top QB available at #2.

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

That assumes the Giants pick 2nd.  I think the Giants end up picking 4th after Cleveland takes Barkley and then tries a power move from 4 to 2.  Just a hunch.

That's what I believe to. The Browns literally have too many draft picks. The Giants need to rebuild their Oline. Giants are certain to get Nelson at 4! That's a steal if you also move back for more draft picks. They could literally rebuild their entire Oline for another run this year. They were all over Norwell & lost out. Gettleman is a Gold jacket drafter, Nelson has been talked about in John Hannah terms, a sure fire pro bowler with a nasty streak. When you are the New York Football Giants & win 2 f*cking games they are going to make sure it was worth it and Barkley (fans would love it), or trading back for Nelson (Giant fans are smart enough to realize they have to fix the Oline), both of those moves would appease Giant fans. 

I see them trading back, and looking for a QB later in the draft to put behind Webb.

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

That assumes the Giants pick 2nd.  I think the Giants end up picking 4th after Cleveland takes Barkley and then tries a power move from 4 to 2.  Just a hunch.

Life imitating art. Didn’t that terrible movie depict the browns doing that?

[BCJet]

How can Allen be our guy given the fact that he has the complete opposite skill set for a west coast offense?

He needs to be put in an offense similar to what Cam Newton runs with designed QB run plays, play action and downfield passing to make use of his elite arm strength.  Allen will NEVER be the type of QB who will be 65+% passer, he is going to live or die on chunk throws down the field, and QB runs which utilize his size and speed.  None of those fit what Bates wants to run with the shannahan style of offense.

Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield all fit exactly what they want to do, which is why I can't see allen being the jets pick. 

Personally I like Darnold and Mayfield better then Rosen simply due to the injury factor and Rosen's lack of mobility, but Rosen can hit every NFL throw, is more accurate then his % would indicate and if he stays healthy (had injuries in HS too) can be an elite NFL Player.

 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, BCJet said:

How can Allen be our guy given the fact that he has the complete opposite skill set for a west coast offense?

He needs to be put in an offense similar to what Cam Newton runs with designed QB run plays, play action and downfield passing to make use of his elite arm strength.  Allen will NEVER be the type of QB who will be 65+% passer, he is going to live or die on chunk throws down the field, and QB runs which utilize his size and speed.  None of those fit what Bates wants to run with the shannahan style of offense.

Darnold, Rosen and Mayfield all fit exactly what they want to do, which is why I can't see allen being the jets pick. 

Personally I like Darnold and Mayfield better then Rosen simply due to the injury factor and Rosen's lack of mobility, but Rosen can hit every NFL throw, is more accurate then his % would indicate and if he stays healthy (had injuries in HS too) can be an elite NFL Player.

 

It was no coincidence they made the trade after Rosen and mayfield's pro days.  And mccagnan can't risk his job on allen at this point.  We're getting one of the other 3.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, jack48 said:

I still keep hearing some commentators saying the Giants don't go QB.  But if that is the case, I agree they will probably trade.  We get QB #3.  Whoever that is.

And that might be ok. We'll still need a team around the QB and as long as he's good enough the rest is on the GM, HC, and other players. If the team with the NFL's top QB always won the SB, there'd be a whole mess of Lombardi Trophies that would have gone another way. We don't need the best one; we need one good enough. Hopefully the guy we take #3 overall is just that, whichever prospect it is.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

And that might be ok. We'll still need a team around the QB and as long as he's good enough the rest is on the GM, HC, and other players. If the team with the NFL's top QB always won the SB, there'd be a whole mess of Lombardi Trophies that would have gone another way. We don't need the best one; we need one good enough. Hopefully the guy we take #3 overall is just that, whichever prospect it is.

I have more faith that Rosen goes 2nd, whether it's to the giants, bills - or even a surprise team like Denver - but i think there's still a question of whether the browns like allen enough to redshirt him for a year.  

[Pcola]

8 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Bingo.  If the Giants want Barkley and he goes #1 then the Giants will move down to #5 with Denver and take somebody like Nelson or Chubb IMO.  If the Giants want a QB then they're just staying put.

As much love and faith in Eli as there seems to be from Giants ownership, fans and possibly the GM, I just can't see them passing up on a potential franchise QB when the question is whether Eli has 2 or 3 decent years left, not 5 or 6.  Passing up a franchise QB to appease Eli for 2 years is not how you run a football team IMO.  The Jets have spent heavy Draft capital for the next two years in order to potentially get the 3rd best QB in the Draft.  The Giants would be foolish to pass up the 2nd or possibly 1st QB in the Draft simply because they don't think they'll need one until 2020.  BUT, I hope that's what they do.  

The problem is that they have seen the Pats draft multiple replacements for Brady and ended up trading everyone of them.  Which is great if you are talking about a 3rd or 4th rounder and not the #2 pick in the draft.  Manning is about four years younger Brady.  You can’t possibly expect whatever QB you take at 2 to sit that long.  So the NYGs run the risk of having to cut or let Manning walk unless Eli just wants to retire a couple of years too early.

The hope would be that with OBJ getting older, Solder is over 30, Gettleman being 67, etc. that the team would pay more attention in how quickly Dallas turned it around with Zeke and less in the fact that During Wentz’s second season, Philly was the best team in the league.

[Bruce Harper]

I would be absolutely shocked if Allen is a better pro than Mayfield. I just hope Mac can see beyond his tall guy with a big arm bias.


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[jack48]

12 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And that might be ok. We'll still need a team around the QB and as long as he's good enough the rest is on the GM, HC, and other players. If the team with the NFL's top QB always won the SB, there'd be a whole mess of Lombardi Trophies that would have gone another way. We don't need the best one; we need one good enough. Hopefully the guy we take #3 overall is just that, whichever prospect it is.

I actually don't believe any of these guys will be great.  And you are right.  That would still be all right