Denzel Mims has more yards than Elijah Moore

[Larz]

Are we getting team Denzel and team Moore T-shirts?

[FidelioJet]

15 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

This is a reach. Even for you.

Stop.

Third down in the first or second drive of the game - for 5 weeks, Davis has dropped a first down pass.

It's really, really bad.  

He's not an NFL #1 or #2...he's a role player that can get NFL open - but if the ball isn't perfect he's not going to make the play...He belongs in the NFL, but he CAN NOT be a go to guy if you expect to win football games...

The Jets are treating him as a go-to guy and it's harming ZW's development.  

[DonCorleone]

8 hours ago, Guilhermezmc said:

Looks like Elijah Moore isn't the second coming of Antonio Brown like the media told us all camp

That's because Denzel is quite simply the better receiver.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Davis can’t catch. Mims can.  

Oh c'mon, Fidelio.  Don't you know anything about football?  There's WAYYYYY more to being an NFL receiver than catching the ball.  Give me the receiver who can't catch a lick but runs precise curl routes over Mims any day! 

[Stark]

8 hours ago, The Crusher said:

FREE DEN…… Oh forget it. We don’t deserve him. 

[Ecuadorian Jet]

8 hours ago, 68JET11 said:

Doesn't help that he's not playing the correct position. He's a SLOT receiver, not a WR.  Again today all I see is bunch formations.  When will LaFleur spread this offense out. 

I would love it if he stops showing at press conferences all smiles and laughing. 

[Scoop24]

Mims and Davis should be on outside. Moore and Crowder sharing snaps in the slot till the eventual Crowder trade imo.  

[Green hat]

The coaching staff is trying to put vets on the field to help Wilson in his first year, while at the same time getting the young WRs ready to take over next year. I'm sure the goal is Moore, Mims and Davis as the starters going forward (next year). 

Once again (again (again (again))etc) , this year is about implementing the new schemes, making mistakes/improvements, finding players with long term potential, and then the off season with the cap space and picks to fill in the gaps. A win or loss on a given week doesn't change this.( It does put on tape material to evaluate going into next year) 

 

[Stark]

17 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Bench Davis.

Yeah don’t know about bench but you can’t try to make him the #1.  Dude just doesn’t have it. It’s been his M.O.  he’s a solid 2-3 but still not great. 
 

id like to see Mims in that spot. Crowder in slot and Davis opposite as the 2nd or 3rd read with Moore working in with Cole as 4th WR. 
 

also it would be great if Zach could complete passes to wide open players within 5-8 yards. 

[Integrity28]

11 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Stop.

Third down in the first or second drive of the game - for 5 weeks, Davis has dropped a first down pass.

It's really, really bad.  

He's not an NFL #1 or #2...he's a role player that can get NFL open - but if the ball isn't perfect he's not going to make the play...He belongs in the NFL, but he CAN NOT be a go to guy if you expect to win football games...

The Jets are treating him as a go-to guy and it's harming ZW's development.  

So, you’re concluding that it’s the Jets staring down Davis, not Zach? 

The thing harming Zach’s development is that he’s not being coached to have proper footwork, going thru his reads, not staring down his target, he’s not getting the ball out on 3-, 5- and 7- step drops, which leads to him running backwards, making bad throws, and taking bad sacks.

He is playing like a rookie that was over-drafted. Like I figured he would.

We could use fewer drops, sure, but blame shifting to Corey Davis is an absolute reach. Again, like last week, you fail to acknowledge that in order to develop a QB, you have to teach them the basics first. The Jets are not doing that, seemingly at all.

Your posts are ill-informed. Perhaps “stop”.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Integrity28 said:

So, you’re concluding that it’s the Jets staring down Davis, not Zach? 

The thing harming Zach’s development is that he’s not being coached to have proper footwork, going thru his reads, not staring down his target, he’s not getting the ball out on 3-, 5- and 7- step drops, which leads to him running backwards, making bad throws, and taking bad sacks.

He is playing like a rookie that was over-drafted. Like I figured he would.

We could use fewer drops, sure, but blame shifting to Corey Davis is an absolute reach. Again, like last week, you fail to acknowledge that in order to develop a QB, you have to teach them the basics first. The Jets are not doing that, seemingly at all.

Your posts are ill-informed. Perhaps “stop”.

Wilson has sucked at times, surely we all see this.  This is to be expected.  At least we see flashes to know he’s got talent.  But it just seems like he’s not getting much help.  The running game sucks.  There’s no threat at TE.  The rbs are not utilized enough in the passing game.  The wrs have dropped passes.  And they’re not playing mims nearly enough.  So what’s happening is that wilson is usually in 3rd and long situations where statistically it’s improbable they’re going to get a first down.  

it does seem clear that wilson finds mims and the offense moves the ball when mims is involved.  you’d think the coaches would start to notice this, given how in 5 first quarters this season they’ve scored no points and have all of 5 first downs this year.  aren’t they ‘cutting their nose to spite their face’ by not having mims in there much more if he’s helping the struggling rookie qb?

[Integrity28]

Just now, Augustiniak said:

Wilson has sucked at times, surely we all see this.  This is to be expected.  At least we see flashes to know he’s got talent.  But it just seems like he’s not getting much help.  The running game sucks.  There’s no threat at TE.  The rbs are not utilized enough in the passing game.  The wrs have dropped passes.  And they’re not playing mims nearly enough.  So what’s happening is that wilson is usually in 3rd and long situations where statistically it’s improbable they’re going to get a first down.  

it does seem clear that wilson finds mims and the offense moves the ball when mims is involved.  you’d think the coaches would start to notice this, given how in 5 first quarters this season they’ve scored no points and have all of 5 first downs this year.  aren’t they ‘cutting their nose to spite their face’ by not having mims in there much more if he’s helping the struggling rookie qb?

Yea, I’m not taking about Mims playing time. You’re missing my point.

Developing a QB is more than just “which WR plays”.

[Biggs]

Zach is an enigma at QB.  He has gunslinger talent with teachers pet mentality.   Unfortunately the teacher is in way over his head.   It's all right in front of him, just throw the ball and stop thinking.    

It's a game and these coaches are trying to control everything to protect their ass.   There getting in this kids head.   The kid makes a nice throw to an open Mims over the middle and Mims goes to the bench.   WTF.  Attack get some rhythm and stop messing with his head.  His mechanics are getting screwed up because his head is twisted.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Zach is an enigma at QB.  He has gunslinger talent with teachers pet mentality.   Unfortunately the teacher is in way over his head.   It's all right in front of him, just throw the ball and stop thinking.    

It's a game and these coaches are trying to control everything to protect their ass.   There getting in this kids head.  

It does seem as if they’re overloading wilson too early.  And that’s likely contributing to the jets offense starting so terrible each game.  

[carlito1171]

We need to see Moore in the slot more, and on misdirections and Jet sweeps....the rest of the route tree can come as time goes on but thats where he can contribute right now 

[sec101row23]

5 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

We need to see Moore in the slot more, and on misdirections and Jet sweeps....the rest of the route tree can come as time goes on but thats where he can contribute right now 

Agreed.  The use of motion was virtually non existent yesterday.  I think little LaFleur needs to call big brother LaFleur during this bye week and take a hard look at how Green Bay is running “the system”.  GB’s version is a little more spread out and could play to the Jets personnel better.   
 

I’d also come out in the first quarter and maybe go up tempo some.   Go 4 wide and try to get the defense to have to defend more of the field.  

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Agreed.  The use of motion was virtually non existent yesterday.  I think little LaFleur needs to call big brother LaFleur during this bye week and take a hard look at how Green Bay is running “the system”.  GB’s version is a little more spread out and could play to the Jets personnel better.   
 

I’d also come out in the first quarter and maybe go up tempo some.   Go 4 wide and try to get the defense to have to defend more of the field.  

Agreed.  Seems like a very predictable offense early on.  Wilson is more suited for an up tempo scheme where he can zing it.  

[FidelioJet]

18 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

So, you’re concluding that it’s the Jets staring down Davis, not Zach? 

The thing harming Zach’s development is that he’s not being coached to have proper footwork, going thru his reads, not staring down his target, he’s not getting the ball out on 3-, 5- and 7- step drops, which leads to him running backwards, making bad throws, and taking bad sacks.

He is playing like a rookie that was over-drafted. Like I figured he would.

We could use fewer drops, sure, but blame shifting to Corey Davis is an absolute reach. Again, like last week, you fail to acknowledge that in order to develop a QB, you have to teach them the basics first. The Jets are not doing that, seemingly at all.

Your posts are ill-informed. Perhaps “stop”.

I believe your posts to be ill-informed.  I mean that with no offense but they are, in fact, incorrect.

Zach Wilson's drops, footwork, timing are all fine for a rookie - does he hold the ball too long on occasion surely.  He's going through his reads just fine, he's certainly not locking on to receivers any more than would be expected from a rookie.

Problem is more with receivers not getting separation and when they do, there's someone in his face. That's a schtick you've been sticking with since pre-draft and it's simply a false narrative.

Yes, sure - he's missed some throws, sure I would like to see him more accurate on some of his short throws...But this is what you should expect with rookies -  How's Trevor looking? How's Fields? How's Lance? All over drafted?  For the record, ZW has looked better than all of them.  

I'm not really blaming Corey Davis as much as I am simply saying he's not very good.  Zach has gotten no help from the team around him.  NONE.  Corey Davis a primary receiver has proven to be a mistake.  He's not bad, but he can NOT be counted on.  

The reality is, anyone that was being realistic about what to expect from ZW - I being one of them.  We didn't expect him to be great this year and expected him to struggle - particularly with the talent around him.  But what we wanted to see was flashes where you can see how he can be a top 5 QB in the NFL.  He has clearly shown that.

He's going to have a lot of bad games and he's also going to show how he can be special.

Feel free to continue your false narrative, I won't ask you to stop - not my place.  But I will point it out when you're wrong.

[FidelioJet]

18 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

It does seem as if they’re overloading wilson too early.  And that’s likely contributing to the jets offense starting so terrible each game.  

They're challenging the kid.

Look, it's been clear from the very beginning with this coaching staff.   This is a learning year and we should not expect much when it comes to Wins and Losses.

Wether their decision is correct or not I don't know but it's clearly Trial by Fire.

He's going to look very bad at times with the way they're bringing him along - but the hope is he comes out on the other end better for it.

We'll see soon enough.  This is not a one or even two year thing - it's year 3 when you should expect him to begin to truly prosper.  

Just look at Allen and Baker as reasonable examples.

[ScarletKnight89]

The Jets have to come out of the bye with an offensive game plan that gets Mims and Moore on the field at the same time. They keep telling us Moore is awesome, fine, i'll still believe it for now, but there is no reason Mims shouldn't be seeing time out wide on a more consistent basis. 

Wilson likes to take shots down the field and Mims is our best linear player. He showed good ball skills at Baylor and last year, take some shots with him down field.

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I believe your posts to be ill-informed.  I mean that with no offense but they are, in fact, incorrect.

Zach Wilson's drops, footwork, timing are all fine for a rookie - does he hold the ball too long on occasion surely.  He's going through his reads just fine, he's certainly not locking on to receivers any more than would be expected from a rookie.

Problem is more with receivers not getting separation and when they do, there's someone in his face. That's a schtick you've been sticking with since pre-draft and it's simply a false narrative.

Yes, sure - he's missed some throws, sure I would like to see him more accurate on some of his short throws...But this is what you should expect with rookies -  How's Trevor looking? How's Fields? How's Lance? All over drafted?  For the record, ZW has looked better than all of them.  

I'm not really blaming Corey Davis as much as I am simply saying he's not very good.  Zach has gotten no help from the team around him.  NONE.  Corey Davis a primary receiver has proven to be a mistake.  He's not bad, but he can NOT be counted on.  

The reality is, anyone that was being realistic about what to expect from ZW - I being one of them.  We didn't expect him to be great this year and expected him to struggle - particularly with the talent around him.  But what we wanted to see was flashes where you can see how he can be a top 5 QB in the NFL.  He has clearly shown that.

He's going to have a lot of bad games and he's also going to show how he can be special.

Feel free to continue your false narrative, I won't ask you to stop - not my place.  But I will point it out when you're wrong.

How is it wrong to say “our coaches aren’t teaching our rookie QB the important things”? 

Why are you extrapolating this into a “which rookie qb has looked best” argument.

Heres the problem. You choose to either not acknowledge my point - or clearly don’t get it. So you routinely shift the argument to other things… and this is the grossest example of it yet.

Fido: “Zach made an awesome throw he’s the best of the rookie QBs” (throw was to Corey Davis)

Also Fido: “Corey Davis is stopping the development of our QB, but I’m not really blaming Corey Davis”

Your posts are Jekyll and Hyde.

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

How is it wrong to say “our coaches aren’t teaching our rookie QB the important things”? 

Why are you extrapolating this into a “which rookie qb has looked best” argument.

Heres the problem. You choose to either not acknowledge my point - or clearly don’t get it. So you routinely shift the argument to other things… and this is the grossest example of it yet.

Fido: “Zach made an awesome throw he’s the best of the rookie QBs” (throw was to Corey Davis)

Also Fido: “Corey Davis is stopping the development of our QB, but I’m not really blaming Corey Davis”

Your posts are Jekyll and Hyde.

Okay, 

I think the biggest and most relevant point I was having the most trouble with in your original reply  was that Wilson was over-drafted.  I've seen nothing to date (nor should we expect to through week 5, particularly on this garbage team) that shows me he's been overdrafted.  In fact, I see the opposite - "Special" has peaked its head through....  

When discussing that point - you must acknowledge the other QB's drafted above or near him to make a determination on his positional value in the draft.

Additionally, you must also acknowledge the lack of talent on the NYJ right now - particularly from his #1 WR.  Davis has been his primary target and it's a problem.

Corey Davis is what he is - a second tier WR that requires virtually a perfect ball to make a catch.  That's fine, I guess - but he shouldn't' be anywhere near a primary target, especially for a rookie QB.  He is harming Zach more than helping.  I think that was clear and shouldn't have been that hard for you decipher from my post - or you're simply being disingenuous.

[greenwichjetfan]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Okay, 

I think the biggest and most relevant point I was having the most trouble with in your original reply  was that Wilson was over-drafted.  I've seen nothing to date (nor should be expect to through week 5, particularly on this garbage team) that shows me he's been overdrafted.  In fact, I see the contrary - "Special" has peaked its head through....  

When discussing that point - you must acknowledge the other QB's drafted above or near him to make a determination on his positional value in the draft.

Additionally, you must also acknowledge the lack of talent on the NYJ right now - particularly from his #1 WR.  Davis has been his primary target and it's a problem.

Corey Davis is what he is - a second tier WR that requires virtually a perfect ball to make a catch.  That's fine, I guess - but he shouldn't' be anywhere near a primary target, especially for a rookie QB.  He is harming Zach more than helping.  I think that was clear and shouldn't have been that hard for you decipher from my post - or you're simply being disingenuous.

You can't see that Zach Wilson was over drafted because you spent the entire offseason yelling at everyone that he was the greatest prospect the world has ever seen. It's also why you're committing to blaming anyone and everyone other than Wilson for the Jets woes.

I posted this in another thread: the Jets O has a net 11 passing yards, 0 points, and more INTs than 1Ds in 5 Q1s this year. You want to take a small bite and hand it to Davis? Go ahead. Maybe a sliver to the playcalling? A little piece to the D? All fine. But the majority of the failure pie belongs to Zach being over drafted and under developed. 

[jgb]

17 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I think this coaching staff is obsessed with precision route running and getting open vs being a big target.  

Maybe Mims can't get open the way the others can but he seems to make plays when he's on the field.  His yards per snaps is off the charts. Could just be a coincidence,  likely is, but given what Cole and Moore have been doing why not give Mims some more chances?

We are now 1-4 and don't really need to spend the rest of the year developing a jag like Cole. 

Weird because wasn't the knock on Zach was that he liked to go playground ball in college? Gee, I wonder what type of receiver you describe above is better suited to that.

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

You can't see that Zach Wilson was over drafted because you spent the entire offseason yelling at everyone that he was the greatest prospect the world has ever seen. It's also why you're committing to blaming anyone and everyone other than Wilson for the Jets woes.

I posted this in another thread: the Jets O has a net 11 passing yards, 0 points, and more INTs than 1Ds in 5 Q1s this year. You want to take a small bite and hand it to Davis? Go ahead. Maybe a sliver to the playcalling? A little piece to the D? All fine. But the majority of the failure pie belongs to Zach being over drafted and under developed. 

Stop...

We're 5 weeks into his rookie season - learning completely new offense.  I think it's comical that you would make an assessment like that. 

I have said ZW hasn't been perfect and down right bad at times - but that should have been expected - he has also flashed top 5 in the NFL potential.  I'm really not sure what you expected - and what his performance would have needed to look like for you to say he was not over drafted.

Was Lawrence over drafted? Fields?  Honestly, just a curious to understand how you value QB's in the NFL Draft. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Stop...

We're 5 weeks into his rookie season - learning completely new offense.  I think it's comical that you would make an assessment like that. 

I have said ZW hasn't been perfect and down right bad at times - but that should have been expected - he has also flashed top 5 in the NFL potential.  I'm really not sure what you expected - and what his performance would have needed to look like for you to say he was not over drafted.

Was Lawrence over drafted? Fields?  Honestly, just a curious to understand how you value QB's in the NFL Draft. 

You literally can't overdraft a QB that hits in the NFL. Tom Brady would be taken #1 by 32 teams in hindsight. 

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

You literally can't overdraft a QB that hits in the NFL. Tom Brady would be taken #1 by 32 teams in hindsight. 

Which is also why you can't say a QB has been overdrafted after 5 weeks.  Particularly with this garbage roster.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Which is also why you can't say a QB has been overdrafted after 5 weeks.  Particularly with this garbage roster.

Agree but both things can be true. That it's too early to tell and that the early results are not encouraging.

[greenwichjetfan]

14 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Stop...

We're 5 weeks into his rookie season - learning completely new offense.  I think it's comical that you would make an assessment like that. 

We're 5 weeks in, and Zach Wilson has shown extremely brief flashes of brilliance playing against mostly shell defenses, but has put hours of very poor play on tape. That's exactly what a not-yet-busted but over-drafted player looks like.

25 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I have said ZW hasn't been perfect and down right bad at times - but that should have been expected - he has also flashed top 5 in the NFL potential.  I'm really not sure what you expected - and what his performance would have needed to look like for you to say he was not over drafted.

I expected him to have growing pains and throw bad INTs where he was fooled by great defenses such as Belichick's. I expected him to have trouble with the speed of the game. In fact, I spent all offseason explaining my worries about him never having to face any type of real competition in college.

What I didn't expect was for him to have such terrible accuracy issues, and such terrible decision making against relatively standard defenses. Along with a live arm, those two items were supposed to be his hallmarks leading up to the draft, and is what we were sold as reasons that he's a "can't miss" prospect.

20 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Was Lawrence over drafted? Fields?  Honestly, just a curious to understand how you value QB's in the NFL Draft. 

Yes, absolutely Lawrence was over drafted. I was one of the first ones early in last years college football season in the Draft Forum raising my hand stating that we shouldn't go near Lawrence even if we have the #1 pick. I didn't believe that any of the QBs deserved to be a top 5 overall pick, and I think Fields was drafted closer to his value than any of the other QBs taken. As I said countless times during the offseason, Fields will be the best QB of the draft. I was (am still) hoping for Zach to prove me wrong, but early returns are dreadful to say the least. 

[The Crusher]

17 hours ago, Larz said:

Are we getting team Denzel and team Moore T-shirts?

Any man with daughters would 100% get this reference. 

[The Crusher]

17 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Stop.

Third down in the first or second drive of the game - for 5 weeks, Davis has dropped a first down pass.

It's really, really bad.  

He's not an NFL #1 or #2...he's a role player that can get NFL open - but if the ball isn't perfect he's not going to make the play...He belongs in the NFL, but he CAN NOT be a go to guy if you expect to win football games...

The Jets are treating him as a go-to guy and it's harming ZW's development.  

He has a very small catch radius for a man that size. 

[The Crusher]

5 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

So, you’re concluding that it’s the Jets staring down Davis, not Zach? 

The thing harming Zach’s development is that he’s not being coached to have proper footwork, going thru his reads, not staring down his target, he’s not getting the ball out on 3-, 5- and 7- step drops, which leads to him running backwards, making bad throws, and taking bad sacks.

He is playing like a rookie that was over-drafted. Like I figured he would.

We could use fewer drops, sure, but blame shifting to Corey Davis is an absolute reach. Again, like last week, you fail to acknowledge that in order to develop a QB, you have to teach them the basics first. The Jets are not doing that, seemingly at all.

Your posts are ill-informed. Perhaps “stop”.

Problem is when Zach does happen to throw a catchable ball it would be helpful if someone could actually catch it. Kid can't learn if the offense can't stay on the field. Kid stinks but he's never going to improve unless someone starts catching the ball and we get first downs. 

[Integrity28]

49 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Problem is when Zach does happen to throw a catchable ball it would be helpful if someone could actually catch it. Kid can't learn if the offense can't stay on the field. Kid stinks but he's never going to improve unless someone starts catching the ball and we get first downs. 

I fully agree.

That said, Fido didn’t state it this way. She grossly exaggerated it and that’s what I responded to.

Perhaps she should type what she means the first time, instead of walking it back and reframing what she meant the way she’s doing here.

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Agree but both things can be true. That it's too early to tell and that the early results are not encouraging.

Well, I think I disagree in that I believe the early results show some encouraging things and some not so encouraging.

[jgb]

5 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Well, I think I disagree in that I believe the early results show some encouraging things and some not so encouraging.

I want you on my jury if I’m ever on trial