Jets HQ: A big shift in the power dynamics, culture, & philosophy?

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

11 minutes ago, CanadienJetsFan said:

I think he’s always been in full control. I don’t blame him for accommodating Rodgers with Lazard and Cobb. I’m glad he picked a tackle at 10 and didn’t short-sight the franchise by picking a TE.

Maybe then it’s simply a more subtle managerial style shift away from consensus decision making and system support (what do you need RS, AR) to I’m leading the charge and this is how we’re building the offense and deploying talent on both sides of the ball.  

[The Crusher]

12 hours ago, dbatesman said:

This would help explain why’re acting like a team that plans to run the ball 600 times next year despite giving up a sh*tload of picks and money for Rodgers.

Yeah also looks like Saleh is planning on rotating and platooning RB’s like he does the  defensive line. 

[Claymation]

12 hours ago, Vader said:

Saleh definitely looks depressed 

Nah, he looked liked Kevin Bacon in Animal House.

[Jetpain]

With JFM & Huff it seems like the guys dont want to be  apart of this D line rotation that Saleh & Ulbrich deploy.  Less playing time = less stats = less pay day.         

Saleh clearly looks like his wings have been clipped.  Also he knows his nuts are on the chopping block with a team, that on paper, looks playoff bound.  Extra pressure to lead and produce.  Has he learned from the past and can he grow into a better coach and leader??  

[HighPitch]

11 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

For all the grief saleh has taken here, he along with any other coach was undeserving of defending ZW for 3 years.  

You would think he would be happy now

[PS17]

10 hours ago, Vader said:

On Saleh being kicked down a notch and change in philosophy -- you can see on both sets of doors, the exit and entrance to 1 JD, they now have the new Jets logo, which replaces Saleh's Mantra "All Gas No Brakes" that was there before. It's hard to see in white but I definitely noticed it.

All gas no brake was beyond cringe. Good riddance. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

19 minutes ago, slats said:

Last year Breece Hall averaged 4.5 ypc, but when he was out the $7M slug and Abanikanda each only managed to get 3.2 ypc. While I can see a future where Allen is converted into more of a FB/RB, I think they double-dipped here because it was a priority to find a bruising back who can run between the tackles without the massive fallout they had last year every time Breece left the field. I’m sure if you look at the analytical data of what positions hit late in the draft, QB and WR are probably next to nowhere while the lower valued positions (RB, S, TE, G) have higher hit rates as talented players at those positions drop. I’d suggest they took two hoping one sticks but, if both of them do, that’s not a bad problem to have. 

I've seen ya make that argument before in another thread - couple things:

• Agree about day 3 RB's, even if I don't have the analytical data, I've seen so many good ones in the league
• Annoyed that Miami and the 49ers took Jaylen Wright and Isaac Geurendo (spelling?) before we took Braelon Allen, at least I know they've got homerun speed
• Actually prefer Isiah Davis after having done some reading on both post draft - he's a much better pass blocker (some people say Allen is good, but the video I'll post below has made me skeptical of Allen overall as a prospect) and runs more physically
• I would've preferred taking a G as I want some more IOL depth - lol I want to walk away from as many offensive lineman that were on this roster last year/several years

All that said, it's day 3 of the draft - I'm not sweating it too much. I'm growing to love the Stiggers dart throw and Isiah Davis looks fun to watch with his physicality, so I'm not gonna complain about the other RB.

Funnily enough, there was a video of Izzy @ the Jets facility doing squats my brother sent me - both my brother and I have really gotten into weightlifting the past few years - and it was Izzy squatting 225 and we were both like "that's.... not impressive". Of course, it could've been a warmup or lighter day, and I have no context for that video, but I feel like for a professional athlete that's the equivalent of grown adult posting video of them tying their shoelaces to social media.

Decent watch below:

 

[redlichtie]

purely FWIW this is what Bob McGinn’s scouts said about Braelon Allen…McGinn is reputable and his excellent scouts take has been going on 40 years.
I make no judgement other than to pass on but it’s interesting that sone of those scouts seem to contradict the notion he’s a big bruiser…personally I really like the pick as I think there’s good reason to believe he has a lot of upside…we shall see

 

5. BRAELON ALLEN, Wisconsin (6-1, 236, no 40, 3-4): Third-year junior. “God, I just wish he would show more,” one scout said. “There’s a ‘but’ that drives me crazy. It’s called consistency of domination. He doesn’t bring the hammer. He just doesn’t run big. He’s not Derrick Henry, by any means.” Finished with 597 carries for 3,494 (5.9) and 35 TDs to go with 49 catches. “Kind of a conundrum,” said a second scout. “For being a big, good-looking running back he doesn’t always play that way. There are times he thinks of himself as a 195-pound back, not a 230-pound back. The thing that’s concerning is his instincts and vision, which are pretty much a requirement for a running back. Some have it naturally. Maybe he’ll figure it out more as he gets a little older. He only played running back for the three seasons in college.” Recruited as a safety with a planned move to linebacker before injuries forced the Badgers to move him to RB almost immediately. One of the youngest players in the draft; turned 20 in January. “What’s interesting is he played his whole college career as a teenager,” said a third scout. “They ran more of a pro-style system with Paul Chryst and the kid was extremely productive two years in a row. This year, they switched to a shotgun-spread offense where he was a sidecar. There were a lot of delays. You go across, get the ball, then you go downhill. It did not fit his eye, so to speak. He still finished 16 yards from having 1,000 again. He is not the rolling ball of AJ Dillon but he’s got more foot agility and change of direction than Dillon. I think he’s got a chance to be pretty good because he is big and can break tackles. No, no, no, no, Derrick Henry is Secretariat. I think Allen would (run) 4.55.” Declined to run the 40 or shuttles at the combine or pro day. “I think he’s not running because he’s (slow),” said a fourth scout. “My biggest issue is what the speed would be and being up to that size. I wish he played more to his size, played nasty and ran guys over. But he is a big bitch to wrap up and bring down.” From Fond du Lac, Wis. “Poor man’s AJ Dillon,” said a fifth scout. “Take that for what it’s worth. He’s a big ol’ lumbering, straight-line guy that needs momentum to get going. He won’t make anyone miss with elusiveness or catching the ball. No, he’s not better than Ron Dayne. All those Wisconsin backs that ran for 2,000 yards a year and none of them are any good.”

[dbatesman]

11 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

The draft is a crap shoot.  If you double down on big brusing RB's then your chances of one of them panning out doubles as well.  Belt and suspenders, guys, belt and suspenders.  That was my take once they drafted the 2nd guy.     

We should have used five picks on RBs, only way to be sure

[32EBoozer]

12 hours ago, dbatesman said:

This would help explain why’re acting like a team that plans to run the ball 600 times next year despite giving up a sh*tload of picks and money for Rodgers.

Early Regular season is the time when the running game should be priority #1. Let Rodgers, Williams and Corley get comfortable in the offense and protect his health! Confining him to the pocket is tantamount to guaranteeing a playoff birth.

 

[#27TheDominator]

You guys sound happy that Saleh, Rodgers and maybe Hackett are being undercut.  I get not trusting them and their vision, but maybe you should consider that the power run sh*t probably indicates that the power is going towards Carter and Downing, the guys the Titans dumped.  I don't see that as an improvement.

[Larz]

[32EBoozer]

9 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

“They ran more of a pro-style system with Paul Chryst and the kid was extremely productive two years in a row. This year, they switched to a shotgun-spread offense where he was a sidecar. There were a lot of delays. You go across, get the ball, then you go downhill. It did not fit his eye, so to speak. He still finished 16 yards from having 1,000 again. He is not the rolling ball of AJ Dillon but he’s got more foot agility and change of direction than Dillon. I think he’s got a chance to be pretty good because he is big and can break tackles. No, no, no, no, Derrick Henry is Secretariat. I think Allen would (run) 4.55.” Declined to run the 40 or shuttles at the combine or pro day. “I think he’s not running because he’s (slow),” said a fourth scout. “My biggest issue is what the speed would be and being up to that size. I wish he played more to his size, played nasty and ran guys over. But he is a big bitch to wrap up and bring down.” From Fond du Lac, Wis. “Poor man’s AJ Dillon,” said a fifth scout. “Take that for what it’s worth. He’s a big ol’ lumbering, straight-line guy that needs momentum to get going. He won’t make anyone miss with elusiveness or catching the ball. No, he’s not better than Ron Dayne. All those Wisconsin backs that ran for 2,000 yards a year and none of them are any good.”

Well, that's concerning! Hopefully being the #2 DOG, will stir up the competitive juices in this young man. Hoping Breece and Tyron & Moses take him under their wing and push him to be his best.

[Larz]

9 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

We should have used five picks on RBs, only way to be sure

 

I’ve seen other posts about the roster projecting Davis as a FB already 

[ARodJetsFan]

12 hours ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

As long as woody is in the building he’s still the shadow GM.  

This is easily the Jets biggest problem.

The man knows less than nothing, about evaluating football talent & should not be influencing player decisions.

That's what the GM & front office is for.

[ARodJetsFan]

9 minutes ago, Larz said:

 

I’ve seen other posts about the roster projecting Davis as a FB already 

This would make more sense, if they were planning on using him as a true FB.

[slats]

47 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

purely FWIW this is what Bob McGinn’s scouts said about Braelon Allen…McGinn is reputable and his excellent scouts take has been going on 40 years.
I make no judgement other than to pass on but it’s interesting that sone of those scouts seem to contradict the notion he’s a big bruiser…personally I really like the pick as I think there’s good reason to believe he has a lot of upside…we shall see

 

5. BRAELON ALLEN, Wisconsin (6-1, 236, no 40, 3-4): Third-year junior. “God, I just wish he would show more,” one scout said. “There’s a ‘but’ that drives me crazy. It’s called consistency of domination. He doesn’t bring the hammer. He just doesn’t run big. He’s not Derrick Henry, by any means.” Finished with 597 carries for 3,494 (5.9) and 35 TDs to go with 49 catches. “Kind of a conundrum,” said a second scout. “For being a big, good-looking running back he doesn’t always play that way. There are times he thinks of himself as a 195-pound back, not a 230-pound back. The thing that’s concerning is his instincts and vision, which are pretty much a requirement for a running back. Some have it naturally. Maybe he’ll figure it out more as he gets a little older. He only played running back for the three seasons in college.” Recruited as a safety with a planned move to linebacker before injuries forced the Badgers to move him to RB almost immediately. One of the youngest players in the draft; turned 20 in January. “What’s interesting is he played his whole college career as a teenager,” said a third scout. “They ran more of a pro-style system with Paul Chryst and the kid was extremely productive two years in a row. This year, they switched to a shotgun-spread offense where he was a sidecar. There were a lot of delays. You go across, get the ball, then you go downhill. It did not fit his eye, so to speak. He still finished 16 yards from having 1,000 again. He is not the rolling ball of AJ Dillon but he’s got more foot agility and change of direction than Dillon. I think he’s got a chance to be pretty good because he is big and can break tackles. No, no, no, no, Derrick Henry is Secretariat. I think Allen would (run) 4.55.” Declined to run the 40 or shuttles at the combine or pro day. “I think he’s not running because he’s (slow),” said a fourth scout. “My biggest issue is what the speed would be and being up to that size. I wish he played more to his size, played nasty and ran guys over. But he is a big bitch to wrap up and bring down.” From Fond du Lac, Wis. “Poor man’s AJ Dillon,” said a fifth scout. “Take that for what it’s worth. He’s a big ol’ lumbering, straight-line guy that needs momentum to get going. He won’t make anyone miss with elusiveness or catching the ball. No, he’s not better than Ron Dayne. All those Wisconsin backs that ran for 2,000 yards a year and none of them are any good.”

I’ve seen this, too. I think I mentioned it before that he doesn’t play as physical or to his size. I suspect he went where he did because they love his potential. He’s 20 years old, he’s big, he’s been productive. That’s a piece you can work with. This is why they double-dipped with another RB who does run with physicality, though. There weren’t a lot of holes on the roster heading into the draft, but the RBs behind Breece was definitely one of them. 

[slats]

50 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

We should have used five picks on RBs, only way to be sure

I get the snark, but the odds are that most of these fifth rounders and beyond won’t amount to much. Taking two late shots at a hole on the roster that typically gets filled with late round picks is not the worst use of them. I’d’ve probably tried to find an IOL with one of them instead of trading for the QB, maybe, but I also don’t mind if they decide to fill out their depth there in the upcoming mini draft. 

[dbatesman]

41 minutes ago, Larz said:

 

I’ve seen other posts about the roster projecting Davis as a FB already 

“one of the two running backs we drafted is actually a fullback” does not make me feel better

[redlichtie]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

I’ve seen this, too. I think I mentioned it before that he doesn’t play as physical or to his size. I suspect he went where he did because they love his potential. He’s 20 years old, he’s big, he’s been productive. That’s a piece you can work with. This is why they double-dipped with another RB who does run with physicality, though. There weren’t a lot of holes on the roster heading into the draft, but the RBs behind Breece was definitely one of them. 

Yes agree 100%…I really like the pick because he won’t be expected to be ‘the guy’ and if he develops it’s definitely a roll where we need another back to step up to help Breece Hall…unlike most people I think you should always keep adding running backs and doing it with these kind of picks makes sense to me 

[Larz]

5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

“one of the two running backs we drafted is actually a fullback” does not make me feel better

Wasn’t the goal. Clearing up the ignorance about the player was 

[Joe W. Namath]

The drafting of 2 late round running backs again in this thread.  This is hysterical that Jets fans cant handle this.  

I cannot stop laughing.

"OMG!  We spent  4th and 5th round picks on rbs.  EVERYTHING IS CHANGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA

[Flea Flicking Frank]

I don't mean to sound like a complete downer, but this regime is toast. They may run the ball enough and play good enough defense to get another year, or maybe even two, but youre not winning a SB based on a power running game. Good luck beating the Chiefs like that, or the Dolphins. You need to throw the ball and get big chunk plays to win in the modern NFL. This regime doesn't know how to do that. We have zero ability to get a QB after Rodgers, who is 41. They should have moved on from this regime and started over, there is some talent on the roster, but this regime sucks

[Adoni Beast]

• With our OL and RB additions and even Corley we definitely seem to be moving towards a more physical type offense versus the zone athletic scheme.
• Douglas operated like a man who is here for the long-haul or at the very least is doing it "the right way" regardless of job security.
• I was baffled by the Davis pick initially but feel like they might be using him as a FB who also gets some handoffs more than typical FBs get. I don't think they're down on Izzy at all and want a 4 man rotation in the RB room (2 home run hitters + 2 bruisers).
• I think Douglas is operating like a man who is going to do it his way regardless of Rodgers or Saleh and that is what this team has needed. But he still has given Saleh Reddick so it's not like he isn't working collaboratively. 
• I love the QB pipeline/factory approach. Have your starter + a good backup + a developmental guy + fill PS squad with someone too. But regardless if Saleh stays or not....they will need to improve the offensive coaching at some point to realize this plan.

[slats]

13 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

“one of the two running backs we drafted is actually a fullback” does not make me feel better

If this guy is Richie Anderson or the Sowell Train in a couple years, I don’t think anyone will be complaining about the pick. 

[Alka]

14 hours ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

Just my views.  Could be wrong.  Vision has worsened as I hit my 40s.

 

1. JD seems to have taken more control of the key decision making

2. Some of his draft picks suggest he might be less at risk than others

3. Rodgers & Saleh's influence on personnel appears significantly smaller 

4. Has JD grown a pair?

    Example 1:  Mosley took a real pay cut, something that should have but didn't happen last year

    Example 2:  JFM was unceremoniously traded for peanuts.  Did he refuse a pay cut?

    Example 3:  Clear shift to a power running game and away from the SF zone 'system'

5. Less system based rigidity on defense & offense? 

    Example 1:  Sauce's announcement he will follow the opponent's #1 WR

    Example 2:  Addition of Reddick, who opens up pass rushing options including 5 man fronts w/ JJ, McDonald & Reddick (as a LB) on the field at the same time

    Example 3:  Addition of players like Corley who will likely require more pre-snap motion

6. More emphasis on guys who are competitors.  Mike Williams' contested catch rate, Malachi Corley's YAC, the kid earning an opportunity from the CFL

7. A developmental QB who brings smarts, winning/clutch DNA, and leadership traits.  And who can sit a couple years ..

8. A quieter, humbler Saleh who looks less in charge and more taking cues from someone else

 

Anyone else seeing this stuff?  Other stuff?

 

Yes, I have definitely seen this.  You are perceptive, and I could not agree more with you.

I think that JD pretty much admitted that JFM was traded due to JFM's inability to agree on a pay cut.  JD said that he and JFM could not bridge the gap, when discussing JFM.  That pretty much is an admission that JD tried to work out something with JFM. 

Do you think that Saleh was on board with trading away JFM for peanuts?  Hell no!!

I do think it was dumb luck that the Jets drafted Fashanu, as it seems that JD wanted to trade up for Oduze.  I believe that not getting Odunze, and getting Fashanu will make the Jets breath a sigh of relief, when Tryon misses multiple games this year, and they have Fashanu to step right in and not miss a beat.  With Odunze, it would have been another sh*t show, when Tyron goes down, they have to put Warren in at left tackle, and he or Moses goes down, and they have to make a decision on moving AVT to tackle.  This will not happen this year, due to making the unpopular but correct decision to draft Fashanu.

[Trotter]

16 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

“one of the two running backs we drafted is actually a fullback” does not make me feel better

there was actually a time where they drafted a fullback in the first round - so you could look at it as they are making progress

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

48 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

The drafting of 2 late round running backs again in this thread.  This is hysterical that Jets fans cant handle this.  

I cannot stop laughing.

"OMG!  We spent  4th and 5th round picks on rbs.  EVERYTHING IS CHANGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA

The RBs are not really the main point of this thread.

It’s more the changing vibe of the entire offseason.

Last year was so much driven by appeasing and overly relying on Rodgers.

Then there’s been the outspoken and sometimes brash Saleh who seemed to pull the strings on the Will McDonald pick while leaving the Offense to someone else.  A bit of conflict of interest.

Then there are those who believed Woody was pulling the strings on Zach.

Those voices have quieted, possibly a natural evolution or possibly because JD is learning from his mistakes and putting more of his GM stamp on this football team.  That’s not a bad thing nor does it excuse him from the mess he helped create.  

1. “Hey guys, this SF zone blocking isn’t working.  JHC, we haven’t been able to power our way to a 3rd or 4th & 1 since we’ve been running it.”

2. “Sorry Aaron, we’re taking a QB this year…… Yes, yes we understand your relationships with Bakhtiari and OBJ but that cannot drive our decisions at LT and WR.”

3. “Robert, our draft plan is Offense, Offense and more Offense.  Appreciate your position on Dallas Turner but we need to score points.”

4. “Hey guys, let’s tone down these macho slogans and instead go out and get competitors who actually play that way.”

Things are changing …. pay attention in class.

[rangerous]

14 hours ago, JohnnyLV said:

I would describe Saleh more as sullen angry low energy and not on board at all

his demeanor at the first round draft presser spoke volumes.  i don't think he was very happy with douglas picking a left tackle.  kinda shows how clueless saleh is about winning football.

[C Mart]

59 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't mean to sound like a complete downer, but this regime is toast. They may run the ball enough and play good enough defense to get another year, or maybe even two, but youre not winning a SB based on a power running game. Good luck beating the Chiefs like that, or the Dolphins. You need to throw the ball and get big chunk plays to win in the modern NFL. This regime doesn't know how to do that. We have zero ability to get a QB after Rodgers, who is 41. They should have moved on from this regime and started over, there is some talent on the roster, but this regime sucks

What is to say they can't get chunk plays? If you can run the ball that only sets up play action even more. Running the ball keeps the ball out of the opposing Os hands. Running the ball w/a lead (hopefully alot more this season) burns the clock. When December / Jan rolls around the ability to run the ball w/big, power RBs increase.  

This isn't either or. It's complimenting what they had prior to Saturday. 

[C Mart]

14 hours ago, Vader said:

Saleh definitely looks depressed 

He looked fine w/the interview SNY did with him that was on their draft show last night.  Maybe he's just being reserved with the beat reporters, which would be a smart decision. 

[slats]

15 hours ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

1. JD seems to have taken more control of the key decision making

2. Some of his draft picks suggest he might be less at risk than others

3. Rodgers & Saleh's influence on personnel appears significantly smaller 

I think what happened this year is a correction to the norm. Last year they catered too much to Rodgers, and it failed. This year he’s back to building the team the way he wants it built. 
 
I don’t think he’s at risk at all. I think he’s on safer footing than Saleh, but both of them getting two year extensions -should this season be at least moderately successful- is something I can easily see. 

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

Wasn’t the goal. Clearing up the ignorance about the player was 

Thank you so much for this

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, slats said:

I get the snark, but the odds are that most of these fifth rounders and beyond won’t amount to much. Taking two late shots at a hole on the roster that typically gets filled with late round picks is not the worst use of them. I’d’ve probably tried to find an IOL with one of them instead of trading for the QB, maybe, but I also don’t mind if they decide to fill out their depth there in the upcoming mini draft. 

The fact that late-round picks probably won’t amount to much is why I’d prefer throwing the darts at positions less fungible than RB. There’s also the larger context; Douglas has now drafted six running backs in four drafts. I’m not upset that only one of the previous four has worked out, but I do wonder why we keep allocating resources this way.

1 hour ago, slats said:

If this guy is Richie Anderson or the Sowell Train in a couple years, I don’t think anyone will be complaining about the pick. 

Well yeah, no sh*t. You can say this about any player picked by any team in any round. All we can do right now is evaluate process, and the process does not make sense to me.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

32 minutes ago, C Mart said:

What is to say they can't get chunk plays? If you can run the ball that only sets up play action even more. Running the ball keeps the ball out of the opposing Os hands. Running the ball w/a lead (hopefully alot more this season) burns the clock. When December / Jan rolls around the ability to run the ball w/big, power RBs increase.  

This isn't either or. It's complimenting what they had prior to Saturday. 

I agree, you can, I just don't know if AR is good enough at this age to do so consistently. The reason they are doing this is they quesiton the same thing