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Calvin Pryor traded to Browns for Demario Davis: MERGED


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Let's pretend that there were 2 same day, but disconnected trades.

Trade 1; we sent Pryor to Cleveland for a case of beer (not even good beer). Why would we do it? Not because we wanted the beer, but to get rid of Pryor. We could keep Pryor and have has spot filled and hope his attitude didn't affect the other players or in hopes some team would have an injury and be desperate to trade for him, we could have released him and eat the 1.5 million or we could trade him. Trading is better as it saves us the 1.5 million the other options cost us. The real question is why would Cleveland trade for him? We were not going to keep him; so that advantage in trading for him is that they would only have to pay him 1.5 million, he wouldn't cost them towards compensatory picks (at 1.5 mill unlikely) and he couldn't go to another team. So, they traded a perfectly good case of beer just in case the market for a horrible safety with a bad attitude was either going to drive the price above 1.5 million OR he would go to another team - LOL

Trade 2; now that we were freed of a roster spot and 1.5 million in guaranteed money and now armed with a case of beer, the Jet's decide to sign a know quantity at LB on a trial. If the trial doesn't pan out, they will just release him when they have to go to 53 anyway. The could sign a FA (if there was one available) or wait for a team to shed one. Had Cleveland released Davis, they Jets being one of the only likely suitors would probably sign him to a one year prove it deal in the 2+M range (with a small signing bonus). Fortunately, the Jets had this case of beer they didn't really want, so they trade it to Cleveland, get the guy they think will work out, they pay slightly more but they also have an extra 1.5M. If Davis works out they get him for a year and don't loose any compensatory picks; if he doesn't they just release him prior to the start of the season and it only costs them a case of beer they didn't really want anyway.

:-)

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I wish the majority of Jet fans would stop being "two faced" for just a minute.  You can't complain for years about how awful Pryor is then complain when you don't get a high draft pick back for him

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26 minutes ago, Jet9 said:

So you're just assuming that there may have been a better trade at some point? 

I'm saying it's far from out of the question, and since he has a history of scoffing at offers with his unrealistic demands, only to get stuck with his player, it's not an unreasonable thing to allow as very possible and more than just a wild supposition. He has earned no benefit of the doubt; quite the opposite.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Critiquing Maccagnan's demonstrably horrible acquisitions and moves obviously means I want Idzik-level draft and FA success for the next 20 years.

Mac took over a dumpster fire two years ago. I think he is doing a pretty good job. 

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8 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

The Jets have used 2 first round picks on safeties in 4 years. We just unloaded one of them for an ILB that we let walk a year back who wasn't very good in the first place, a year after we just used a first on an ILB to boot. This whole sh*t is a series of lame preposterousness and anyone claiming that objectively viewing things as bad as hating or complaining needs to get over themselves. We have done nothing but invest in safety and ILB for two years now. Maccagnan is legit ******* terrible and the sooner this fanbase (particularly season ticket holders) demands he be held accountable for these nonsense moves instead of praising him for freeing up $1.7 million in cap space the better. 

two things.  pryor was an idzik pick so now they're down to 3 or 4 left.  and davis had 99 tackles last season.  that's not bad production.  i will say that thus far mac has been so-so with his drafting.  he seems to find good players but outside of leo and probably adams not many blue chippers.  i suppose if hack or petty turn out to be starting quality a lot will be forgiven. the thing is the team needs to develop their own blue chippers and that takes time and patience. 

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7 hours ago, gEYno said:

I mean, I guess investing your two top draft resources specifically so you can get rid of a disappointing safety who was far from the biggest problem on this team, is a plan of some sort.

i think we just have to see how this all plays out.  there's a ton riding on bowles being able to fashion a team out of these players.

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On 6/1/2017 at 10:34 AM, T0mShane said:

Likely. He started to lose me by letting Cromartie freelance without consequence, then defending him like they were soulmates every time Cro let a receiver run past him without even turning around. Lost me some more when it came out he was letting the young building blocks of the team (Mo and Sheldon) walk all over him. Lost me altogether when he claimed ignorance of the locker room issues between Sheldon and Marshall. I don't think you teach leadership, and Bowles is little more than a paper tiger who's been sniffed out.

You can teach leadership.  We just do not know whether Bowles has the motivation or ability to learn.

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17 minutes ago, rangerous said:

two things.  pryor was an idzik pick so now they're down to 3 or 4 left.  and davis had 99 tackles last season.  that's not bad production.  i will say that thus far mac has been so-so with his drafting.  he seems to find good players but outside of leo and probably adams not many blue chippers.  i suppose if hack or petty turn out to be starting quality a lot will be forgiven. the thing is the team needs to develop their own blue chippers and that takes time and patience. 

There are 5 players drafted by Idzik who are still on the Jets.  Richardson, Winters, Enunwa, Dozier and McDougle.  There are 4 that were drafted by Tannenbaum - Harris, Davis, Wilkerson and Powell.  There is still potential for them to pick Antonio Allen back up (and Mangold for that matter).

By contrast, there are 10 players drafted by Maccagnan who have taken a snap for the Jets in an NFL game still on the team.  

1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

Let's pretend that there were 2 same day, but disconnected trades.

Trade 1; we sent Pryor to Cleveland for a case of beer (not even good beer). Why would we do it? Not because we wanted the beer, but to get rid of Pryor. We could keep Pryor and have has spot filled and hope his attitude didn't affect the other players or in hopes some team would have an injury and be desperate to trade for him, we could have released him and eat the 1.5 million or we could trade him. Trading is better as it saves us the 1.5 million the other options cost us. The real question is why would Cleveland trade for him? We were not going to keep him; so that advantage in trading for him is that they would only have to pay him 1.5 million, he wouldn't cost them towards compensatory picks (at 1.5 mill unlikely) and he couldn't go to another team. So, they traded a perfectly good case of beer just in case the market for a horrible safety with a bad attitude was either going to drive the price above 1.5 million OR he would go to another team - LOL

Trade 2; now that we were freed of a roster spot and 1.5 million in guaranteed money and now armed with a case of beer, the Jet's decide to sign a know quantity at LB on a trial. If the trial doesn't pan out, they will just release him when they have to go to 53 anyway. The could sign a FA (if there was one available) or wait for a team to shed one. Had Cleveland released Davis, they Jets being one of the only likely suitors would probably sign him to a one year prove it deal in the 2+M range (with a small signing bonus). Fortunately, the Jets had this case of beer they didn't really want, so they trade it to Cleveland, get the guy they think will work out, they pay slightly more but they also have an extra 1.5M. If Davis works out they get him for a year and don't loose any compensatory picks; if he doesn't they just release him prior to the start of the season and it only costs them a case of beer they didn't really want anyway.

:-)

Not sure why you are smiling.  In your scenario, if they Jets could sign Davis for $2M, they would have been better off getting the case of beer for Pryor and waiting until the Browns cut Davis.  That would save them $1.7M off the cap, or precisely the same amount that people are praising Maccagnan for saving in this move. In the meantime, they'd still have the beer.

:)

 

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1 hour ago, southparkcpa said:

In all due respect....  MAC has been mediocre at best.  I emphasize at best.

We have to be realistic in our expectations.  The team he inherited sucked.  He deserves time to rebuild.

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2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Not sure why you are smiling.  In your scenario, if they Jets could sign Davis for $2M, they would have been better off getting the case of beer for Pryor and waiting until the Browns cut Davis.  That would save them $1.7M off the cap, or precisely the same amount that people are praising Maccagnan for saving in this move. In the meantime, they'd still have the beer.

:)

Yeah, but they probably would have had to give him a small signing bonus and risk (gasp) loosing compensatory picks. Don't worry about the beer, it wasn't particularly good beer anyway...

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3 hours ago, JetsFanatic said:

Mac took over a dumpster fire two years ago. I think he is doing a pretty good job. 

Wait, this team is not currently a dumpster fire?

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3 hours ago, rangerous said:

i think we just have to see how this all plays out.  there's a ton riding on bowles being able to fashion a team out of these players.

I look forward to Bowles's genius in fashioning a team without a QB, a pass rush, a left tackle, any athleticism on offense, the three best players all playing the same position, no corners, and perhaps, if we're lucky, the league's best safety tandem.

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1 hour ago, JetsFanatic said:

We have to be realistic in our expectations.  The team he inherited sucked.  He deserves time to rebuild.

After two years, the team he has now may actually be worse.

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On 6/1/2017 at 9:23 PM, Mogglez said:

I...wasn't disagreeing with you. I was adding on to your points...all of which I agreed with.  

I understood you, I don't think you understood me.

Fair enough.

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18 hours ago, C Mart said:

Henderson?  

Harris isn't long-term plans..Agree

Alright so Henderson's option wasn't picked up. I was watching the cap numbers at over the cap and he's still listed there. My point is that if we aren't going to win this year then let anyone else have a shot at that staring job. We could use that money to buy a nice piece to complement whoever we draft to play QB next year. 

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22 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Potentially saving $1.7m (which may have only been $1m) is a hallmark of a shrewd GM who's always thinking.

However, blowing through the following should be ignored:

  • $3m for 2 bad/useless months of Janoris Jenkins
  • $39m for 2 seasons of Revis (one pretty good, one bad)
  • $6m for 1 season of Josh McCown (maybe this will be the great one!)
  • $7m for 1 bad season of Cromartie
  • $7.5m/yr for Brian Winters, guaranteed for 2 years.
  • $19m for 3 years of Buster Skrine (2 of 2 have been pretty bad so far)
  • $11m for 2 years of Ben Ijalana, after getting turned down by Ryan Clady, whom he shouldn't have been trying to re-sign in the first place.
  • $37m guaranteed for 2 seasons of Mo (the first one of which was bad)
  • $12m (and a lost comp draft pick) for a bad second season of Ryan Fitzpatrick (not to mention, the cost of the player making him look so foolish).
  • $3.5m/yr (and a lost comp draft pick) for <8 games of Steve McLendon.
  • $9m guaranteed (and a lost comp draft pick) for a 31 year-old RB in Matt Forte
  • $15m guaranteed for 31 year-old David Harris (who was already embarrassingly slow 5 years earlier)
  • $10m for 2 years of Marcus Gilchrist
  • $10m for Sheldon Richardson because he turned down a 2017 2nd round pick for him

Just up to where I stopped above, what is that -- like $200m?

But hey, we may have saved as much as $1.7m, so kudos to our genius GM. Of course, that is unless we actually keep Davis, in which case this "savings" is actually an additional team outlay of $2m+. BIG MACC!!!!

Tell us how you really feel.:D

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14 hours ago, gEYno said:

After two years, the team he has now may actually be worse.

We are significantly worse than 2014 personnel-wise.  Back then we had Snacks, Brick, Mangold, Muhammed Wilkerson still cared and Geno is better than any Qb on our current roster

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14 hours ago, gEYno said:

I look forward to Bowles's genius in fashioning a team without a QB, a pass rush, a left tackle, any athleticism on offense, the three best players all playing the same position, no corners, and perhaps, if we're lucky, the league's best safety tandem.

No problem Bowles will play quarters the entire game to feature our amaze balls Safeties, never make an adjustment and get blown out 42-0 

 

And then Ira in Staten Island will defend him Monday morning while Joe Boningo has a heart attack

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16 hours ago, gEYno said:

After two years, the team he has now may actually be worse.

Question for you about your hate for Mac.  Why do you completely discount any success the team had in 2015?

That team won 10 games  - games won with guys that Mac acquired and who had big roles in the success of the team.  Guys like Brandon Marshall (100+ catches), Revis/Gilchrist (Jets finished 4th in team defense in the league in 2015), and James Capenter who has been an excellent player on a below market contract.

Just like with the revisionist draft history you posted, your argument looks at the team today as if a snapshot of 2016 and the 2017 offseason is a reflection of what Mac accomplished in 2015 when "winning now" was the goal.  

This team in 2014 had a horrendous GM, coach who had zero accountability throughout the organization, but also had a veteran core and a ton of cap space that they HAD to spend.  So what did Mac do, he found free agents in Gilchrist, Revis, Carpenter, Skrine and Cro that filled holes to hopefully take a team with Mangold, Brick, Ivory, Harris, Mo, etc and get them over the hump and into the playoffs.  What happened - we were one dumbass play away from success in that plan.

Was Mac really supposed to forsee that after a career of being a 100% effort guy that Revis would completely give up in 2016?  Did he know Brick would retire with 2-3 good years left?

Our team has no talent because in the 2014 draft, when we had 12 picks, we found no one other then Enunwa.  Depth in that draft could have filled some of the gaping holes in the 2016 roster.  Mac's picks cannot be judged yet and you and the talking head on TV who think our roster stinks from top to bottom, dont take into account the fact that its possible that Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Burris, Peake/Anderson, and ASJ (mac signing), take steps forward this year and become young, cheap contributors going forward.

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23 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Critiquing Maccagnan's demonstrably horrible acquisitions and moves obviously means I want Idzik-level draft and FA success for the next 20 years.

Hmmm well at least your honest about it ☺️🙏

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I'm still reserving judgement on Mac, but lets just say the great 2015 experiment was a dismal disaster.  Taking a rebuilding team and purchasing high priced/aging free agents and transforming the team into a win now squad is not a good way to run a team.  Especially since we didn't even make the playoffs.

That experiment set us back 2 years, so yes it was a disaster.  And no, we didn't HAVE to spend the money on old free agents.  It would have been easy to pay Wilkerson and our young players with frontloaded contracts.

I'm pretty sure that was a Woody directive, so I give Mac somewhat of a pass, but yea lets just say the end result was pretty predictable.

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1 hour ago, BCJet said:

Question for you about your hate for Mac.  Why do you completely discount any success the team had in 2015?

That team won 10 games  - games won with guys that Mac acquired and who had big roles in the success of the team.  Guys like Brandon Marshall (100+ catches), Revis/Gilchrist (Jets finished 4th in team defense in the league in 2015), and James Capenter who has been an excellent player on a below market contract.

Just like with the revisionist draft history you posted, your argument looks at the team today as if a snapshot of 2016 and the 2017 offseason is a reflection of what Mac accomplished in 2015 when "winning now" was the goal.  

This team in 2014 had a horrendous GM, coach who had zero accountability throughout the organization, but also had a veteran core and a ton of cap space that they HAD to spend.  So what did Mac do, he found free agents in Gilchrist, Revis, Carpenter, Skrine and Cro that filled holes to hopefully take a team with Mangold, Brick, Ivory, Harris, Mo, etc and get them over the hump and into the playoffs.  What happened - we were one dumbass play away from success in that plan.

Was Mac really supposed to forsee that after a career of being a 100% effort guy that Revis would completely give up in 2016?  Did he know Brick would retire with 2-3 good years left?

Our team has no talent because in the 2014 draft, when we had 12 picks, we found no one other then Enunwa.  Depth in that draft could have filled some of the gaping holes in the 2016 roster.  Mac's picks cannot be judged yet and you and the talking head on TV who think our roster stinks from top to bottom, dont take into account the fact that its possible that Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Burris, Peake/Anderson, and ASJ (mac signing), take steps forward this year and become young, cheap contributors going forward.

Why do I discount the "accomplishment" of 2015?!?!?  Perhaps because I don't consider it an accomplishment to make "winning now" the objective and miss the playoffs, only win one game against a playoff team all season, all while facing the leagues easiest schedule.  Add that to the fact that Macc handed out a ton of big contracts and traded away draft picks for players and has nothing to show for it.  

We were one play away from what?  A wildcard birth?  We went all in, with the leagues easiest schedule, and we didn't even make the playoffs before getting smoked by a competitive team, which we did all season.

No one is arguing that Idzik isn't a part of the problem we have today.  They're simply saying that we went from bad, to anywhere from just as bad to insignificantly better.  Regarding the list of players, I've already stated, that as soon as someone names me an NFL team that doesn't have a Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Burris, Peake/Anderson and ASJ who, if they only step up, the team will be great.  Who doesn't have a bunch of young question marks?  Anyone?

Macc Hate?  The Venn Diagram of Macc Hate and Objectivity are one, single, overlapping circle.

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1 hour ago, Hael said:

I'm still reserving judgement on Mac, but lets just say the great 2015 experiment was a dismal disaster.  Taking a rebuilding team and purchasing high priced/aging free agents and transforming the team into a win now squad is not a good way to run a team.  Especially since we didn't even make the playoffs.

That experiment set us back 2 years, so yes it was a disaster.  And no, we didn't HAVE to spend the money on old free agents.  It would have been easy to pay Wilkerson and our young players with frontloaded contracts.

I'm pretty sure that was a Woody directive, so I give Mac somewhat of a pass, but yea lets just say the end result was pretty predictable.

Interesting you mention front loaded contracts - Gilchrist and Harris were all signed with very frontloaded contracts, which is why Gilchrist only carries $1.3  in dead money and if harris isnt needed in 2017, he carries 0 dead money.  Brandon Marshall as well, didnt carry money past this season and I believe Cro had zero dead money after the first year of his deal.  Arent those contract structures that didnt hurt us long term?

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27 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Why do I discount the "accomplishment" of 2015?!?!?  Perhaps because I don't consider it an accomplishment to make "winning now" the objective and miss the playoffs, only win one game against a playoff team all season, all while facing the leagues easiest schedule.  Add that to the fact that Macc handed out a ton of big contracts and traded away draft picks for players and has nothing to show for it.  

We were one play away from what?  A wildcard birth?  We went all in, with the leagues easiest schedule, and we didn't even make the playoffs before getting smoked by a competitive team, which we did all season.

No one is arguing that Idzik isn't a part of the problem we have today.  They're simply saying that we went from bad, to anywhere from just as bad to insignificantly better.  Regarding the list of players, I've already stated, that as soon as someone names me an NFL team that doesn't have a Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Burris, Peake/Anderson and ASJ who, if they only step up, the team will be great.  Who doesn't have a bunch of young question marks?  Anyone?

Macc Hate?  The Venn Diagram of Macc Hate and Objectivity are one, single, overlapping circle.

All teams have those kind of players. So what's your point?? We list those guys because they've seen a good amount of playing time and have actually shown something. Ups and down of course, but still productive. Did we feel that way with idzik picks? Can't remember fans saying Saunders and Evans could turn into something. Couldn't even get excited about Milliner. I never thought Idzik was really building something with those picks since they showed nothing at all.  

Are you just upset that we didn't start with Beasley and Funchess? 

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On 6/2/2017 at 8:47 PM, gEYno said:

After two years, the team he has now may actually be worse.

First off, I don't think this is worse than the 2014 team. However, sometimes things get worse before they get better.

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20 hours ago, BCJet said:

Question for you about your hate for Mac.  Why do you completely discount any success the team had in 2015?

That team won 10 games  - games won with guys that Mac acquired and who had big roles in the success of the team.  Guys like Brandon Marshall (100+ catches), Revis/Gilchrist (Jets finished 4th in team defense in the league in 2015), and James Capenter who has been an excellent player on a below market contract.

Just like with the revisionist draft history you posted, your argument looks at the team today as if a snapshot of 2016 and the 2017 offseason is a reflection of what Mac accomplished in 2015 when "winning now" was the goal.  

This team in 2014 had a horrendous GM, coach who had zero accountability throughout the organization, but also had a veteran core and a ton of cap space that they HAD to spend.  So what did Mac do, he found free agents in Gilchrist, Revis, Carpenter, Skrine and Cro that filled holes to hopefully take a team with Mangold, Brick, Ivory, Harris, Mo, etc and get them over the hump and into the playoffs.  What happened - we were one dumbass play away from success in that plan.

Was Mac really supposed to forsee that after a career of being a 100% effort guy that Revis would completely give up in 2016?  Did he know Brick would retire with 2-3 good years left?

Our team has no talent because in the 2014 draft, when we had 12 picks, we found no one other then Enunwa.  Depth in that draft could have filled some of the gaping holes in the 2016 roster.  Mac's picks cannot be judged yet and you and the talking head on TV who think our roster stinks from top to bottom, dont take into account the fact that its possible that Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Burris, Peake/Anderson, and ASJ (mac signing), take steps forward this year and become young, cheap contributors going forward.

Because what he "accomplished" was easy. Any fool can use up 2 years' worth of saved-up cap room and blow it all in 1 season, to make a team barely good enough to luck into a single 10-win season (provided everything impossibly falls their way schedule-wise, which it did) before predictably falling apart.

The young players believed to be worth keeping and extending at that time, however, he let dangle on final RFA (Snacks) and 5th year option years (Mo). This was done in an effort to keep their costs low enough, for that 1 season, to blow his load on even more very-temporary, but still expensive improvements. A year later, after their costs went up millions per year apiece, his fans clapped like windup circus monkeys clapping tiny cymbals, as we lose one to FA, and sign the other to some $17m/year (after caving in to him like a bitch, to clear cap room so he could then cave in to Ryan Fitzpatrick like an even bigger bitch). It's a mistake he repeated with Winters, it's one he's repeating again now with Enunwa, and one he'll repeat again with Leo and others later. He saves $5m in 1 season at the increased expense of $10-15m over the next 4 seasons; he repeats that same recipe for multiple players, then the tale is told of how he's rebuilding that much more slowly when his own actions are the reasons for it.

The 2015 team wasn't winning a SB, and that 10-win season represented the best-case scenario for his foolishness. Absent both a reliable QB and an edge rusher, one doesn't sign four declining but still very expensive veterans in their 30s (Revis, Marshall, Cromartie, Harris), hold onto other declining but still expensive veterans in their 30s (Brick, Mangold), pay $6m/year for a lowly-rated NB (Skrine), $5-6m/year for a lowly-rated FS (Gilchrist), among other foolishness. Then what does he do with the 6th pick in the draft? Goes after the only position on the team that we already have filled by two 25 year-old, 1st round pro bowlers (plus a third he initially liked enough to exercise the 5th year option at $7m, in Coples). He could have taken an edge rusher over Leo; he could have traded down to pick up another 2nd rounder or more to help fill more of those holes; he could have traded up for a QB, at the expense of what would become the great Darron Lee; he could have done any number of things.

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It's hypocritical to whine about all the holes he inherited when he passed up the opportunities to fill them, since passing up on filling holes is tantamount to creating them himself. He was provided with a lot of good draft picks and cap room. Maccagnan was further provided with still more extra draft picks he then effectively traded away, when he signed UFAs McLendon and Forte, and another when a new loophole (and awful play) saved him from blowing yet another on Jenkins. 

It doesn't take a competent GM 4-5 years to slowly create a contender's talent. Besides which by that time, the initial crop of acquisitions are either now older past their usefulness, or too expensive to after their initial Jets contracts have expired, so you can't keep them all anyway. It's easy to have Leonard Williams at around $20m total over 4 seasons when you're spotted the 6th pick in the draft and he's on the board. It'll be much harder to keep him at what will surely cost around $20m per season; this means $15m/year less to fill holes around him. He's wasting the cheap years of draft picks that panned out. Even crazier is that people are crediting him for this waste.

We're now witnessing the results of why successful teams don't start building powerhouses by using their 1st round picks on alread amply-filled DE-DT positions plus low-value ILB-S positions. Nor do they do so by waiting until their good, young players have maxed out their value before finally re-signing/extending them (or wait that time, and then cry about their then-increased costs when losing them). 

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