We need to change this teams free agent/drafting philosophy

[BroadwayRay]

One of the biggest problems with the Jets drafts since 2015 is they haven't had a lot of draft picks, especially in the first three rounds. This goes back to Tannenbaum, who used to give away draft picks like candy, both in trades for players and for needlessly trading up in the draft. I think I read somewhere that Maccagnan has never traded down in the first three rounds. That's why so many holes have gone unfilled for so long.

BTW, I wish people would get off the narrative that he should have taken Beasley over Leonard Williams. Beasley is not "underrated," he sucks. In fact, the entire 2015 draft class was one of the weakest in recent memory.

[More Cowbell]

17 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

This is my biggest fear and why I was so adamant about firing Mac along with Bowles. We probably struck absolute gold with Darnold. We need to support him enough and protect him so he can reach his potential and elevate the whole team since I believe he is that type of QB. He has the it factor.

This team can very easily hold him back and have him flounder which will ultimately lead to him leaving in FA for a better situation. You can’t “ruin” a great QB but you can really hold him back and make him struggle. Sam proved last year that he’s too good to be “ruined” by incompetence from the coach and GM. Injuries are his main threat with our o-line neglect so that’s my main concern right now. 

I really hope we can be at least average with coaching and roster building going forward so he has a chance. If we had a great coach AND GM, I could very easily see Sam winning us a Super Bowl. I just have zero faith in the current GM (despite a good offseason so far), until I see results and actual quality drafting along with prioritizing o-line/offense more to support Sam. 

Dude, Mac hasn't  had a good off season. He had an outstanding one. He picked up the best offensive and defensive players available and got a famn good slot receiver. Let's  see how the draft goes. I have a feeling Bosa might be there for us at 3. I can see Murray and Williams going 1 and 2. 

[bitonti]

this thread talks about the demand side it says nothing about supply 

when's the last time a DBrick came out of college? When's the last real LT that came out? 

[Wonderboy]

35 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I know.  Same as last season when people were actually saying he should stay on the bench because he was going to get killed behind that OL.  Players were named who would perform the execution.  Ansah.  Von Miller.  Etc. 

Never happened.  The obsession with predicting his demise continues.

????? Sam was constantly harassed. It curtailed his development. Only his ability to move and scramble saved him from further damage. As it was, he was injured and missed several games. What games were you watching?  The OL was and still is crap. I still hold out hope Macc will revamp it by opening day. 

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Pretty simple, stop wasting high draft picks and money on low impact positions. Stop drafting athletic stiffs. Stop turning your olbs into 270 lb run stuffers who are too slow to cover or rush the pass rusher. 

[Creepy Lurker]

2 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Dude, Mac hasn't  had a good off season. He had an outstanding one. He picked up the best offensive and defensive players available and got a famn good slot receiver. Let's  see how the draft goes. I have a feeling Bosa might be there for us at 3. I can see Murray and Williams going 1 and 2. 

Our definition of outstanding is very different. If he can add a draft pick haul from a trade down to what he has already done and fill many holes, that would be outstanding. It’s also still possible since obviously the draft hasn’t happened yet.

I gave him credit and he has had a good/very good offseason SO FAR. We didn’t fill our 2 biggest holes which is why I only say good. He was aggressive with adding talent in other areas and made a great trade with Oakland. He also had a ton of cap space though and throwing crazy money at players doesn’t take skill. I give him credit for realizing that we need to use that space ASAP and add quality talent by any means necessary which he did very well. 

Roster management and drafting takes skill. I will judge his offseason when it’s complete but it’s far from outstanding and expecting outstanding is unrealistic and ridiculous. I’m looking for good and progress at this point and so far so good. 

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Our definition of outstanding is very different. If he can add a draft pick haul from a trade down to what he has already done and fill many holes, that would be outstanding. It’s also still possible since obviously the draft hasn’t happened yet.

I gave him credit and he has had a good/very good offseason SO FAR. We didn’t fill our 2 biggest holes which is why I only say good. He was aggressive with adding talent in other areas and made a great trade with Oakland. He also had a ton of cap space though and throwing crazy money at players doesn’t take skill. I give him credit for realizing that we need to use that space ASAP and add quality talent by any means necessary which he did very well. 

Roster management and drafting takes skill. I will judge his offseason when it’s complete but it’s far from outstanding and expecting outstanding is unrealistic and ridiculous. I’m looking for good and progress at this point and so far so good. 

The only thing we missed on is a C. The most important thing he did was add firepower to the O which he did in the best possible way. Crowder and Bell are legit weapons for Sam. They are going to make a world of difference for him. Mosley is going to be a huge difference maker on D.

As.far as trading down, I don't  know why everyone is so giddy  about it. The talent dropoff outside of the top 4 is huge this year.  There are no OL that you can say will be an outstanding C or LT. Outside of that WR that ran a 4.33, who else is there that is interesting? All a trade down is going to do is fill holes with mediocrity.  I am always for not trading out of the first unless I can totally clean the other teams clock and that isn't  happening this year.  The players are just not there and the team with the first pick is likely to select the QB. I highly doubt Murray gets past the Niners because they can't  be thrilled  with Garapolo. 

So basically if mac trades down and out of the top 10 like so many want so we can get a not so sure thing OL or WR, we better get a really good player thrown in or a 1st next year. Anything short of that I would consider a mistake. 

Lastly, the reason I say outstanding is because Mac did about as good as he possibly  could have. I don't  want to hear we missed on Houston. He is getting.old and has most likely eyed his best football already. He certainly isn't  going to get better. Sometimes  the deal you don't  make is the best thing. Getti g Bell, CJ, and Crowder was about as best an offseason we could hope for at this point

 

[nyjets1969]

https://empirewritesback.com/2019/03/23/new-york-jets-gaping-hole-center-offense/

[Villain The Foe]

2 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Solution: trade out of the third pick to take a center and a safety. You. Can. Not. Make. This. sh*t. Up.

 

Actually, it's trade out of the 3rd pick and take a Center, Safety and Wide receiver. Dont forget the wide receiver.

 

Or maybe this mock of mine where I took two Olineman, a TE, a WR and a RB within the first 3 rounds. 

 

 

[jamesr]

To sum up the original post in two words ...

FIRE MACC!

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, jamesr said:

To sum up the original post in two words ...

FIRE MACC!

Basically. 

[Creepy Lurker]

18 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

The only thing we missed on is a C. The most important thing he did was add firepower to the O which he did in the best possible way. Crowder and Bell are legit weapons for Sam. They are going to make a world of difference for him. Mosley is going to be a huge difference maker on D.

As.far as trading down, I don't  know why everyone is so giddy  about it. The talent dropoff outside of the top 4 is huge this year.  There are no OL that you can say will be an outstanding C or LT. Outside of that WR that ran a 4.33, who else is there that is interesting? All a trade down is going to do is fill holes with mediocrity.  I am always for not trading out of the first unless I can totally clean the other teams clock and that isn't  happening this year.  The players are just not there and the team with the first pick is likely to select the QB. I highly doubt Murray gets past the Niners because they can't  be thrilled  with Garapolo. 

So basically if mac trades down and out of the top 10 like so many want so we can get a not so sure thing OL or WR, we better get a really good player thrown in or a 1st next year. Anything short of that I would consider a mistake. 

Lastly, the reason I say outstanding is because Mac did about as good as he possibly  could have. I don't  want to hear we missed on Houston. He is getting.old and has most likely eyed his best football already. He certainly isn't  going to get better. Sometimes  the deal you don't  make is the best thing. Getti g Bell, CJ, and Crowder was about as best an offseason we could hope for at this point

 

Again, he’s done good but missed on 2 key positions. Edge rusher isn’t really his fault because of what Barr did. We missed out on any quality edge rushers because of Barr, not Mac. I still would have signed Houston and a C just to fill the holes and as band aids while we drafted long term solutions over the next 3 years.

As far as the draft, if you don’t understand the value of trading down (this is exactly how the Browns turned things around so quickly), then I don’t know what to tell you. Let’s just leave it as we disagree. I’m more of a big picture guy which is why I’ve been so critical of Mac. 

[Villain The Foe]

4 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Wasn’t this a post in the other thread or am I tripping this morning?

You're not tripping. I had so much to say that I just made it its own thread in order to discuss it. 

[UnitedWhofans]

You could have just added this to the Fire Maccagnan thread

[Villain The Foe]

3 hours ago, Ohhthepain said:

Agree 100%. Who would you pick at 3 if we couldnt trade back?

The most talented offensive player available. We have to give this offense something in order to make this a more balanced team. 

I think the only reason why we were even able to sign Bell is because Barr reneged on his verbal. Macc literally treats the offense 2nd rate. 

It's a problem when prime picks and prime FA dollars primarily go to the defense. 

[UnitedWhofans]

4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

The most talented offensive player available. We have to give this offense something in order to make this a more balanced team. 

I think the only reason why we were even able to sign Bell is because Barr reneged on his verbal. Macc literally treats the offense 2nd rate. 

It's a problem when prime picks and prime FA dollars primarily go to the defense. 

Explain Crowder then

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Wonderboy said:

????? Sam was constantly harassed. It curtailed his development. Only his ability to move and scramble saved him from further damage. As it was, he was injured and missed several games. What games were you watching?  The OL was and still is crap. I still hold out hope Macc will revamp it by opening day. 

Its football, QBs are harassed.  He was nowhere near being killed.  The only he could move and scramble saved his doesn't explain that we said the same exact things the year before with McCown and a year earlier with Fitz.  

Now please tell us how Darnolds development was curtailed by the OL.  This is pure speculation at its finest.  He was curtailed by a lack of weapons, at not having even the few receivers on the roster for a hunk of the season.  His OL, please, every QB in the NFL gets moved off his spot.  What games did I watch?  His foot injury was from what?  Wouldn't have happened with a better OL?  You know this how?  Because it fits your argument?  Wait, you saw it though

 

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Our definition of outstanding is very different. If he can add a draft pick haul from a trade down to what he has already done and fill many holes, that would be outstanding. It’s also still possible since obviously the draft hasn’t happened yet.

I gave him credit and he has had a good/very good offseason SO FAR. We didn’t fill our 2 biggest holes which is why I only say good. He was aggressive with adding talent in other areas and made a great trade with Oakland. He also had a ton of cap space though and throwing crazy money at players doesn’t take skill. I give him credit for realizing that we need to use that space ASAP and add quality talent by any means necessary which he did very well. 

Roster management and drafting takes skill. I will judge his offseason when it’s complete but it’s far from outstanding and expecting outstanding is unrealistic and ridiculous. I’m looking for good and progress at this point and so far so good. 

So a guy who isn't a top draft talent if we take him at 12 is a better addition to the team than a top 3 talent that just happens to fill another position we need help at because we're so paranoid about how bad the OL is.

[Creepy Lurker]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

So a guy who isn't a top draft talent if we take him at 12 is a better addition to the team than a top 3 talent that just happens to fill another position we need help at because we're so paranoid about how bad the OL is.

No, but for example: A player at 12, additional 2nd rounder this year, additional 3rd rounder this year and an additional 1st next year would be. That would be bare minimum compensation for moving all the way back to 12. I’d even move back again if possible if we are going that far from the top of the draft.

I wouldn’t do this every year either. It’s just something that is long overdue and why not build up our draft capital one time and set ourselves up nicely for the next few years?

Surely we could justify doing this with all of our holes/lack of developmental players. I mean, people justify all the time taking a DT at 6 when we were loaded at DT or taking a SS at 6 because he was BPA so why can’t we justify a value move after taking BPA so many times already? Especially since we have to make up for so many misses.

It would complement what we already have done well and be smart. We won’t(should not) have a high draft pick next year which makes trading down less likely. Now is the 1 time to do this since we already have our FQB in place. 

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Many of us have been in a froth since mac took over and our two pro bowlers mangold and dbrick retired.

The Jets under mccagnan have ut less draft resources into the oline than ANY other team in the league.

The Jets under mccagnan have fully known we were going to get a young franchise QB sooner or later in his tenure.

The oline frothing is 100% justified.

MacCagnan is not going to change he has stated publicly he does not view OL as top end pick material. He is obsessed with BPA and people he is "very comfortable with" he will continue to try and find hidden school gems. More importantly the scouting staff will continue to poorly evaluate players especially at WR and RB.  My TV might not be so safe during the upcoming draft

[slats]

4 hours ago, ElBarrioJets said:

I've been following Jets boards since the early 2000s, I've never seen the fanbase in such a full deranged froth for OL quite like this year. 

This board has long been heavily OL-oriented. I think the OP here is off in complaining about “philosophy.” The problem is competence. Mac has spent 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks on WRs and QBs who are already out of the league. I personally like the idea of drafting moldable OL prospects and coaching them up, but that puts an emphasis on coaching which has also been largely absent here - especially on the offensive side of the ball. 

Picking good players and coaching them well is what the team needs. Hopefully Gase and Idzik can put together a decent draft, and Gase and his staff can prepare them to win. That’s what the team needs over a philosophy shift. 

[Beerfish]

Just now, johnnysd said:

MacCagnan is not going to change he has stated publicly he does not view OL as top end pick material. He is obsessed with BPA and people he is "very comfortable with" he will continue to try and find hidden school gems. More importantly the scouting staff will continue to poorly evaluate players especially at WR and RB.  My TV might not be so safe during the upcoming draft

Top end?  How about any picks?  a 6th rounder and a 5th rounder in 4 years, all the while tossing away picks on wrs and cbs.

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, Creepy Lurker said:

Again, he’s done good but missed on 2 key positions. Edge rusher isn’t really his fault because of what Barr did. We missed out on any quality edge rushers because of Barr, not Mac. I still would have signed Houston and a C just to fill the holes and as band aids while we drafted long term solutions over the next 3 years.

As far as the draft, if you don’t understand the value of trading down (this is exactly how the Browns turned things around so quickly), then I don’t know what to tell you. Let’s just leave it as we disagree. I’m more of a big picture guy which is why I’ve been so critical of Mac. 

I'm all for trading down when there are a lot of quality players in the draft. That isn't the case this season. 

[Creepy Lurker]

Just now, More Cowbell said:

I'm all for trading down when there are a lot of quality players in the draft. That isn't the case this season. 

There isn’t a lot of top end talent but there seems to be plenty of talent in the top 100 which is where we’d likely have our additional picks from trading down. We could fill multiple needs and unless an edge rusher at 3 is the next Khalil Mack or a DT at 3 is the next Aaron’s Donald, drafting multiple starter level talents seems smarter in the long run.

I’ve seen top end talent that’s hyped get drafted and either bust or underwhelm like Leo when they have a low chance at busting and are considered safe. Every draft pick is a gamble but we need to make up for many draft misses and this would be an easy way to IF presented with a trade down option that is fair. 

[Jetsfan80]

What is with JN posters and their aversion to drafting a pass rusher?  Its the 2nd post important position on the field.  Bringing in CJ Mosley will mean nothing if we don't have one.  Since we didn't address the need in free agency, we're in a prime position to fill that need for the first time since John Abraham.

You can draft a Center in the 3rd round.  Relax. 

[Creepy Lurker]

13 minutes ago, slats said:

This board has long been heavily OL-oriented. I think the OP here is off in complaining about “philosophy.” The problem is competence. Mac has spent 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks on WRs and QBs who are already out of the league. I personally like the idea of drafting moldable OL prospects and coaching them up, but that puts an emphasis on coaching which has also been largely absent here - especially on the offensive side of the ball. 

Picking good players and coaching them well is what the team needs. Hopefully Gase and Idzik can put together a decent draft, and Gase and his staff can prepare them to win. That’s what the team needs over a philosophy shift. 

Well we all know how horrific the coaching was. 

[Villain The Foe]

49 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Explain Crowder then

Explain the signing of our slot receiver? 

Does Crowder or Bell for that matter solve all of the holes and lack of depth we have? 

Remember, it's not just about starters but even the 2nd and 3rd string dudes need to be replaced. Why is Dakota Dozier still a Jet? He has not developed into a starter and our former HC would rather have the worst C in Wesley on the field, and when we changed to that dude we picked up last season he couldn't hike the ball properly to Darnold. Dozier and the rest of those dudes weren't better than those two guys? When Winters ripped his abdomen the coaching staff made a decision to play a hurt Winters over all of these depth guys. Why do they have a job then? Obviously they're not good enough to touch a football field. 

Bro, the roster consists of 53 players. There are only 11 starters and for some reason not only are many of those starters average at best, but even when someone gets injured we dont have talent on the team worthy of seeing the field. So I ask again, why are they on the team?

Macc controls the roster. Signing Crowder doesnt change this ongoing problem we've all seen with this GM that should have been fired 2 years ago. 

There's nothing to explain regarding Crowder. This isnt the NBA where you can sign one great guy and piss on the rest of the roster. You have to build a team. Crowder was a great signing, but all that means is that we made a nice signing in free agency. Where are all of the cheap young talented guys on the team along with a couple great FA signings? Am I supposed to think superbowl now because of Crowder? How about you explain Crowder relative to the entire lack of talent/depth on the offense as a whole. 

Macc has been here since 2015. Was that not enough time? Matter of fact, the only talent Macc has provided to the offense at wideout is Crowder. Anderson wasnt drafted and Enunwa is an Idzik pick. And neither of them are a top 20 WR in the league. Better yet, I could probably name 30 WRs in the league better than any WR on this team including Crowder. 

The offense is lacking talent at key positions as well as depth. That's the only thing that needs to be explained

[themeangreenkillingmachine]

4 hours ago, WayneChrebet80 said:

To be fair I think he did change his FA strategy this year. 

Every year players hit free agency and they are usually all flawed-especially premium positions such as a edge,OL, CB, and outside WR. 

The guys that make it to free agency are typically either older (Revis and Trumaine) or guys in their prime that are decent, but will get paid like they are top 3 at the position (Vernon).

This year McCagnan went for guys in their prime who have been top players at their position (Bell,Crowder,Mosley), but severely overpaid based on positional value in the NFL. Although who would you rather pay 17MM next CJ Mosely or Trumaine Johnson? I think everyone would take Mosely. 

We will see how it works, but I think there is enough evidence to support the notion that sitting out free agency entirely is right answer. Look at what the Colts did as an example of how a team should approach this period.

Yes but when you can't draft players,  you have no choice but be big rollers in free agency. Especially when you're own players aren't worthy of a second contract

[bealeb319]

We got darnold a decent slot receiver and a decent guard and drafted what looks to be an alright te last year what more do you want

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jetster]

3 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

It's amazing how so many find ways to regurgitate the same talking points in multiple  ways but I think this one takes the cake. Seriously, you would have taken Beasly over Leo? Leo fell to us. He was thought to be the best player in the draft. And what the Hell has Beasley done anyway. He had one amazing year and 3 where he didn't show up. Atlanta doesn't  even start him in nearly half the games he plays in. And thank you for mentioning we need OL help, like that isn't  posted in every other thread started here. I mean seriously, what happened, did someone scare you with a picture of Mac holding a cup of coffee talking to Q Williams at the combine?

Where was Vic Beasley when the Patriots were throwing the ball on every down in that damn Super Bowl comeback? Vic Beasley MY AZZ!

[GREENBEAN]

Mac has been late for every step along the way so far, maybe luck plays a part again and he gets a offer to trade down that he can't refuse - only real chance at him fixing the Oline
or he is fired and it will be the #1 priority for new GM 
decades of Mawae and Mangold feel like a distant memory
 
 

I think the OP did a good job of pointing out that issues are not solely the fault of our current front office. Say what you want and feel how you feel about anyone currently in the jets employ, but this issue is perennial. beginning a long long time ago in a galaxy far away.

I agree almost entirely with the OP. I can get as swept up as the next guy in the pre draft hype about the so called elite prospects coming out each year. Especially because I’m not really a college football fan. But the point is extremely valid. The idea that grabbing DT’s or pass rushers with premium picks is no way to build an offense around a young QB.

We have seemingly been on a hamster wheel of similar mentalities. We watch as we grab the biggest name Defensive talent we can in the first and it just hasn’t worked. The interesting part of all of that is we have largely been a defensive organization since kotite. It makes sense that this is what we’ve witnessed over the past 25 years or so. We have defensive leaders so we build defensive teams and use our premium draft capital to acquire defensive players. They just can’t help it.
“Go to a surgeon and he’s gonna cut ya.”

The good news from my perspective is that we made a major adjustment this offseason. We hired not only an offensive minded HC, but said HC is not a rookie. So we removed two of the major cyclical aspects of our overall problem. Rookie defensive minded HC.

The third aspect of this change, right or wrong, is that we do not have our new HC with a rookie GM.
For the first time since parcells we have an experienced regime from top to bottom. The experience isn’t to the degree parcells was of course, but it’s present. Even our DC has HC experience and is one of the more accomplished DC’s out there today. These are very big changes. They may not work out of course, but we are not walking down the same path as we have been since 2000. That alone gives me hope.

That hope leads me to believe we actually have a chance to do things differently and to greater ends. The FA period, while not all I hoped, supports that hope by bringing in a mean OL, a very good slot WR and the best offensive weapon of the whole FA class in Bell. So far, it looks like the love we have is tilting toward the offense. That’s good and it’s different than we’re used to. Let’s hope it extends to the draft.

Trading down is almost imperative to me. I see drafting a DT at 3 as a major mistake no matter how great he is. I see going defense with our first pick as a mistake if we can not trade down. If we go D with that pick and leave offense till the 3rd round it is a mistake. The fact that this regime is built differently than were used to gives me hope that we will not be witnessing what we’re used to.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

17 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Why is Dakota Dozier still a Jet?

He's not.  He is an unrestricted free agent.  He will not be back, I presume.  They chose to pursue the world famous Brett Qvale when they also re-signed the other all worldly Eric Tomlinson.  If they were bringing him back, I assume it would have been at that time.

[BROOKLYN JET]

5 hours ago, The Crusher said:

The greatest attribute we saw in Darnold last year Is he will play his balls off no matter how hard the Jets try and screw him up. As a historically young inexperienced rookie he actually closed the season out with a damn nice few games in spite of glaring ineptitude by the front office. So... good news is it will take longer to ruin him than most. So cheer up chum! 

Who do you like coming out of college in 2 years?

[Jetsplayer21]

5 hours ago, ElBarrioJets said:

I've been following Jets boards since the early 2000s, I've never seen the fanbase in such a full deranged froth for OL quite like this year. 

It is too bad they do not give out awards for Oline neglect. Nobody tops the jets past decade in that department ?‍♂️

[Jetsplayer21]

47 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

MacCagnan is not going to change he has stated publicly he does not view OL as top end pick material. He is obsessed with BPA and people he is "very comfortable with" he will continue to try and find hidden school gems. More importantly the scouting staff will continue to poorly evaluate players especially at WR and RB.  My TV might not be so safe during the upcoming draft

You are right, mac is very stubborn. Why it took him so long to give up on hackenberg, he refused to admit what we all know well ahead of him. Good teams value the OL, why we have not been a good team in almost 10 years.. when we once did have a strong OL. When you are all about bpa, you miss on pass rushers and OL. Two positions that smart gms reach for, leaving Mac with his D tackles to choose from every yr. mac blamed failures on bowles. He is now solely responsible. If we don’t make the playoffs this yr, after all he spent, and the OL doesn’t get the job done, he is going to be canned.