Sauce at 4 he won’t be there at 10

[Tranquilo]

1 minute ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Let me put this another way.  When you draft at #4 - you are hoping for a Pro-Bowl level player.

 

Who would you rather have

Trent Williams/Slater/Wirfs/Lane Johnson/Q Nelson or

TJ Watt/Garrett/Bosa or

Diggs/Ramsay/JC Jackson/Terrell/Beyard/Baker/Fitzpatrick

 

Adams/Kupp/Chase/Jefferson

It's pretty obvious that the OL/Edge players are far more valuable than the DBS.  It's not even close.  WRs are also more valuable by far. The Jets should prioritize Edge/OL or even WR with the 4 and same with 10.  Taking DBs with one or both is idiotic.  The Jets did the same thing when they used the Revis pick for Milliner.  If they use the Adams pick to take his replacement at a position of low significance, then Douglas is no better than his predecessors.

Maybe, maybe. But when we used the Revis pick to pick Revis, we were nice.

[GangGreen Machine]

5 minutes ago, Bronx said:

The passing game is nonexistent and CBs are dinosaurs.

Only 68.3% allowed, crickets, crickets.

I don’t understand your argument here. 

[Green Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Let me put this another way.  When you draft at #4 - you are hoping for a Pro-Bowl level player.

 

Who would you rather have

Trent Williams/Slater/Wirfs/Lane Johnson/Q Nelson or

TJ Watt/Garrett/Bosa or

Diggs/Ramsay/JC Jackson/Terrell/Beyard/Baker/Fitzpatrick

 

Adams/Kupp/Chase/Jefferson

It's pretty obvious that the OL/Edge players are far more valuable than the DBS.  It's not even close.  WRs are also more valuable by far. The Jets should prioritize Edge/OL or even WR with the 4 and same with 10.  Taking DBs with one or both is idiotic.  The Jets did the same thing when they used the Revis pick for Milliner.  If they use the Adams pick to take his replacement at a position of low significance, then Douglas is no better than his predecessors.

Do you think Thibs or Hutchison will be there at #4? I don’t. 
If one of them is, I agree with you, take them. I’m not passing on Gardiner for Karlifitis or Walker in that spot though.

[slats]

2 minutes ago, Beaver said:

Is there a real difference between Karlaftis, Johnson, or Walker?  If not, one will be there at 10.

This is the sort of thinking that led to the second round trade down in 2020. Hey, with Hamler, Claypool, Jefferson, and Mims all still on the board, we can afford to move down and… Oops! 
 
Take your favorite Edge at #4, the premium position in any NFL defense, and don’t look back. 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

This is the sort of thinking that led to the second round trade down in 2020. Hey, with Hamler, Claypool, Jefferson, and Mims all still on the board, we can afford to move down and… Oops! 
 
Take your favorite Edge at #4, the premium position in any NFL defense, and don’t look back. 

i can imagine a big debate at 10 between their favorite OL and wr.

[GKnight83]

8 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

Neal at #4 would make me vomit. Terrible use of resources.

On an emotional level I understand this.

Yet, emotions rarely enter into my decision making.

I approached this from what I thought the Jets would do.

[xJayce]

31 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

pass rush doesn't just force qbs to throw quicker, it can change their mindset for taking chances.  

Oh, agreed! A good pash rush makes the whole defense better. I didn't mean to downplay that. But I don't think that a better pass rush fixes the secondary. I think a good pass rush is a minimum for the secondary to be able to perform. I'm just not sure we have the secondary to perform even if we have a decent pass rush.  

[Augustiniak]

Just now, xJayce said:

Oh, agreed! A good pash rush makes the whole defense better. I didn't mean to downplay that. But I don't think that a better pass rush fixes the secondary. I think a good pass rush is a minimum for the secondary to be able to perform. I'm just not sure we have the secondary to perform even if we have a decent pass rush.  

if they address the secondary, they can do it on day 2 rather than day 1

[Bronx]

15 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Let me put this another way.  When you draft at #4 - you are hoping for a Pro-Bowl level player.

 

Who would you rather have

Trent Williams/Slater/Wirfs/Lane Johnson/Q Nelson or

TJ Watt/Garrett/Bosa or

Diggs/Ramsay/JC Jackson/Terrell/Beyard/Baker/Fitzpatrick

 

Adams/Kupp/Chase/Jefferson

It's pretty obvious that the OL/Edge players are far more valuable than the DBS.  It's not even close.  WRs are also more valuable by far. The Jets should prioritize Edge/OL or even WR with the 4 and same with 10.  Taking DBs with one or both is idiotic.  The Jets did the same thing when they used the Revis pick for Milliner.  If they use the Adams pick to take his replacement at a position of low significance, then Douglas is no better than his predecessors.

Great points! 

However,  are you truly comfortable drafting this diva at #4? That white background over his head looks like a cloud, yeah, he is in a cloud.

 

[Tranquilo]

If we do take Neal, would the plan be to play him at RG? Meeehhhhhhhhhh

[Green Ghost]

So I’m seeing people make cogent arguments this morning for the Jets going edge, OL, WR, CB, which all harkens to my original point about this team being so devoid of talent. 
We have so many areas of need, I think it’s important to take the best player at each position rather than focusing on let’s say Edge, and take the third best.

[Jdub03]

21 minutes ago, slats said:

I’m not sure that Thibs is the consensus guy, anyway, so I’m not worried about him being off the board when they pick. They should have these Edges thoroughly scouted, and they should take their top guy at #4 rather than wait and see what’s still available at #10 (or in the second round?!?). 
 
Hamilton’s 4.59 40 is more than a little concerning when you’re talking about taking such a non-premium position in the top ten. Especially when Travon Walker ran a 4.51 at 275 lbs.  

I simply don’t think it will be the case. They talk about positional value, they understand it, and they devalue the CB position compared to much of the league. Teams that run this defense don’t take secondary players high, but they do take a lot of DL/Edge. 

That's fair. In a vacuum I would prefer and Edge over CB. My concerns are Hutch and Walker go top 3.

[65 Toss Power Trap]

1 minute ago, Green Ghost said:

this team being so devoid of talent. 
We have so many areas of need, I think it’s important to take the best player at each position

The concern we have is that the team is also devoid of talent in the war room.

The Jets have so much capital to do exactly what you say--focus on the best player at each position. But, they'll figure out how to screw it up.

[65 Toss Power Trap]

8 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

If we do take Neal, would the plan be to play him at RG? Meeehhhhhhhhhh

No. He's a tackle. That's why it would be discouraging if the team thinks they need to take him. We could have/should have the o tackles figured out by now. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

44 minutes ago, xJayce said:

I would challenge the notion that coverage is impossible.

We saw multiple games last year where opposing WRs were running completely open last year, making 3rd and 20 almost easy.

However, Jets receivers could barely get open all game.

Part of that is obviously pass rush (or lack thereof in our case, giving opposing WRs a bit more time to shake free), but while I think Hall played ok, bringing in a superior talent above him would push Hall to #2, and at the very least make it challenging for opposing QBs.

I agree that coverage is harder, I don't think it's impossible. I also believe we weren't competent enough. And yes, Hall has some decent PD numbers, but we were on the field so often, I'm wondering if it's more a question of pure volume at that point.

I understand that position, but I'll share some context/insight into my thinking too

• much of the season we were on third and fourth string receivers while playing a rookie quarterback - those are not the players I expect to routinely take advantage of the imbalance in rules/officiating. This is why drafting WR's is so important - they have to be good enough to benefti/take advantage of this new officiating reality. 
• I have a theory that 'shutdown coverage', just like 'blitz heavy defenses' (in the present day game, lets say past four years), can be effective vs rookie quarterbacks or teams without adequate skill position players - but they struggle against 'good' offenses. You do not want to blitz Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, & Herbert
• The Bengals offense did not care about Jalen Ramsey - Chase and Higgins still did well... but the Bengals lost because of offensive line issues and the ridiculous 4 PI penalties in the red zone on one drive to benefit the Rams
• The 49ers have a collection of who gives a F @ cornerback and went to the NFC championship (almost won it) because their defensive line is strong and their offense is potent (despite Jimmy G). 
• The Ravens have had the best collection of corners for multiple years now - and they can't stop any 'good' team's offense. Sure they can shut down some sub .500 teams and look great. But put them up against anyone that has a top 10 offense and those corners mean nothing

Sorry this is a bit stream of consciousness. But I hope it gives more insight into my thinking. 

[TheClashFan]

11 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

We need to draft him just so we can say the opposing WR is covered with sauce. 

And then, we need to scour the ranks of college football to see if there's another CB available named Gravy.  Sauce Gardner and Gravy Butler would be quite a tandem...

 

 

[Lith]

55 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

I think a lot of people jumped on the Walker train last week. I’m leery of taking him at #4 though.
If I remember correctly during the combine, @Lith told us that Walker wasn’t a 3 down player at Georgia. He was replaced by another player on 3rd down who they considered a better pass rusher.

That worries me. 

That was Jordan Davis.  The issue with Walker is that we didn't use him as a pure edge rusher.  Obviously the traits are there, which we saw last week, but the Dawgs moved him around a lot in the defense, he  played some off ball, rushed the passer, played interior, dropped into coverage on occasion. 

The guy was an interior lineman his first year at Georgia and moved to DE/Edge this season.  I saw him as a good versatile player, but never would have imagined two months ago that he would be in a Top 10 discussion.  Does not mean he is not worthy of the pick.  I honestly don't know what to think,

[Lith]

My ideal picks at 4 & 10, as of now (before FA) are best available edge at 4.  And Garrett Wilson at 10.  I would not be upset with Sauce and an Edge, but I would see that as less than ideal.  I want a playmaker on both sides of the ball.  Edge and WR, to me, is ideal.

[LAD_Brooklyn]

If Thibs and Hutchinson are gone, there's no better player on the board better then Gardner. Jermaine Johnson is my guy but no way am I picking him over Gardner. Karlaftis isn't in the same tier as a prospect as Gardner. This is a no brainer. Not to mention both guys may be there at 10. McDuffie and McCreary are two other rookie impact guys at the CB position. McDuffie may go in the 1st part of the 1stvround and McCreary early part of the 2nd. 

Meanwhile there's an abundance of pass rushing prospects on day two. 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, Lith said:

That was Jordan Davis.  The issue with Walker is that we didn't use him as a pure edge rusher.  Obviously the traits are there, which we saw last week, but the Dawgs moved him around a lot in the defense, he  played some off ball, rushed the passer, played interior, dropped into coverage on occasion. 

The guy was an interior lineman his first year at Georgia and moved to DE/Edge this season.  I saw him as a good versatile player, but never would have imagined two months ago that he would be in a Top 10 disucssion.  Does not mean he is not worthy of the pick.  I honestly don't know what to think,

Right. The issue with Walker is basically that the production isn't there as an edge rusher and clearly if you're taking him that high that's what you're taking him to be. He was always a stud who many who follow college football identified as the most talented guy in that UGA front seven (despite Jordan Davis getting all the hype) but him as a top 10 pick is very much a projection based on his traits. Doesn't mean it's the wrong pick but it's a little bit of a gamble -- that UGA front seven was so loaded that the sacks were spread around between lots of guys.

[Lith]

11 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Right. The issue with Walker is basically that the production isn't there as an edge rusher and clearly if you're taking him that high that's what you're taking him to be. He was always a stud who many who follow college football identified as the most talented guy in that UGA front seven (despite Jordan Davis getting all the hype) but him as a top 10 pick is very much a projection based on his traits. Doesn't mean it's the wrong pick but it's a little bit of a gamble -- that UGA front seven was so loaded that the sacks were spread around between lots of guys.

If you had asked me at the beginning of the season, I would have guessed that eitehr Adam Anderson or Nolan Smith would emerge from our D as first round edge prospects, not Travon Walker.  But Anderson is facing sexual assualt charges, and Smith is probably a day 2 pick and Walker is flying up draft boards.  I never saw that one coming a few months ago.

[PepPep]

13 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I am 100% convinced that if a player has catchy nickname their draft value increases a lot by fans.

Remember how good Teez Tabour was going to be?

Gardner is pretty good and TinFoil is probably correct, he probably will not last to 10 but that does not mean we have to take him at 4.

I'll be disappointed if we took him due to how todays NFL is but I'd sure rather have him than Hamilton or Trayvon Walker.

If Thib or Hutch do not fall to 4 I am now leaning towards Sauce. Originally wanted Ekwonu but that was because I was under the impression the Jets were satisfied with their group of young CBs. Seems like they are not and believe Hall will never reach that #1 CB level. Bringing in Sauce and signing a legit starting Safety in FA suddenly makes the secondary one of the strengths on defense- with a deep CB group.  

[Beaver]

1 hour ago, slats said:

This is the sort of thinking that led to the second round trade down in 2020. Hey, with Hamler, Claypool, Jefferson, and Mims all still on the board, we can afford to move down and… Oops! 
 
Take your favorite Edge at #4, the premium position in any NFL defense, and don’t look back. 

Different scenarios and rounds of the draft.    This scenario being discussed is considering taking possibly the top CB in the draft and one of the top 4-5 best players in the draft versus the 3-5 best pass rushers in the draft who may or may not be ranked in the top 10.   In addition, the top Pass Rushers in the draft aren't even the considered top players in relation of past drafts.   This is just going off of takes from people to watch and rate players.   I don't claim to be one of those people.

 

Now if JD has another DE he considers a top 4-5 or maybe 6-7 player in the draft, then ok.   But if JD is taking a top 12-15 player on his board at 4 just because he is a DE, that's just bad drafting.

[section314]

16 minutes ago, Beaver said:

Different scenarios and rounds of the draft.    This scenario being discussed is considering taking possibly the top CB in the draft and one of the top 4-5 best players in the draft versus the 3-5 best pass rushers in the draft who may or may not be ranked in the top 10.   In addition, the top Pass Rushers in the draft aren't even the considered top players in relation of past drafts.   This is just going off of takes from people to watch and rate players.   I don't claim to be one of those people.

 

Now if JD has another DE he considers a top 4-5 or maybe 6-7 player in the draft, then ok.   But if JD is taking a top 12-15 player on his board at 4 just because he is a DE, that's just bad drafting.

Absolutely. Doesn't seem to be his M.O, though.

[UntouchableCrew]

59 minutes ago, Lith said:

If you had asked me at the beginning of the season, I would have guessed that eitehr Adam Anderson or Nolan Smith would emerge from our D as first round edge prospects, not Travon Walker.  But Anderson is facing sexual assualt charges, and Smith is probably a day 2 pick and Walker is flying up draft boards.  I never saw that one coming a few months ago.

Interesting. I listen to a college football podcast that (early in the season) was hyping up Travon Walker and Devonte Wyatt as being better than Jordan Davis -- Nolan Smith got some hype as well. I didn't know about Adam Anderson although that seems to be for obvious reasons.

[GangGreen Machine]

Playoff recap:

Dak was sacked 5 times vs Niners 
Rodgers was sacked 5 times vs niners

Maholmes was sacked 4 times vs Bengals including a game sealing sack/fumble

Burrow was sacked 7 times vs Rams including a 4th down QB hurry from Aaron Donald to end the game

Rams, Niners, and Bengals defense is the blueprint. 

[Big_Slick]

3 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

i have faith that this gm and hc understand the value of good pass rushers.  so far douglas has drafted the right positions in the first 2 rounds, no low value positions.

IMO OG is a low value position. I like AVT a lot but drafting him with the #14 overall pick in '21 shows JD didn't understand positional value.

I want a play maker at #14 and address OG through FA or day 2/3.

 

[LAD_Brooklyn]

12 minutes ago, GangGreen Machine said:

Playoff recap:

Dak was sacked 5 times vs Niners 
Rodgers was sacked 5 times vs niners

Maholmes was sacked 4 times vs Bengals including a game sealing sack/fumble

Burrow was sacked 7 times vs Rams including a 4th down QB hurry from Aaron Donald to end the game

Rams, Niners, and Bengals defense is the blueprint. 

Sacks are collectively a team effort. Unless you are referring to rushers who can get to the QB under 3 seconds under a traditional 4 man rush. Also people are placing too much emphasis on sacks. Hurries are the most important pass rushing stat for a pass rusher. I see some prospect total 350+ pass rush opportunities and only collects 36 hurries while accumulating 12 sacks. So that'll tell you they were just two stepping with the OL to R. Kelly's, "Step in the name of love" for majority of the snaps. Under those situations which make up for the majority of pass rush opportunities, you are going to need a solid squad of DBs and LBs to hold it down. That's another dynamic is the pass defense game. With these RBs like McCaffrey,  Kamara and even Michael Carter, you'll need someone to cover those guys. The DBs can do an excellent job of doing their part. The DL could force the QB to hurry the pass and despite all those mini games within the play, the LBs can be the one to underachieve and let the RB loose for a good gain. 

You want to know what would also better a pass rush? A good offense better yet QB. 

[GangGreen Machine]

7 minutes ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

Sacks are collectively a team effort. Unless you are referring to rushers who can get to the QB under 3 seconds under a traditional 4 man rush. Also people are placing too much emphasis on sacks. Hurries are the most important pass rushing stat for a pass rusher. I see some prospect total 350+ pass rush opportunities and only collects 36 hurries while accumulating 12 sacks. So that'll tell you they were just two stepping with the OL to R. Kelly's, "Step in the name of love" for majority of the snaps. Under those situations which make up for the majority of pass rush opportunities, you are going to need a solid squad of DBs and LBs to hold it down. That's another dynamic is the pass defense game. With these RBs like McCaffrey,  Kamara and even Michael Carter, you'll need someone to cover those guys. The DBs can do an excellent job of doing their part. The DL could force the QB to hurry the pass and despite all those mini games within the play, the LBs can be the one to underachieve and let the RB loose for a good gain. 

You want to know what would also better a pass rush? A good offense better yet QB. 

I understand sacks are a team effort. You won’t here me argue that one pass rusher changes a defense.
 

But let’s be logical with this regime. Carl Lawson, Sheldon Rankins, Vinny Curry, JFM extended. The writing is on the wall. Front 7 is the straw that stirs the drink. 

As an edge you can bat down passes just as many times as a break up as pass as a CB. You can hurry the QB, you can put a wallop on him to remind him your there, you can sack him, you can force fumbles, you can set the edge and run defend, you can get a tackle for loss.

I mean I can go on and on but at the end of the day we all need to realize that DB just isn’t a priority to this coaching staff. it’s not who we would like to see out there, heck I love Sauce. It’s who the system can benefit the most from. 

[GangGreen Machine]

CB at 4 with a 2nd year QB, a 4-13 record after a 2 win season, is the kind of move that gets you fired. No matter the talent level. 

[LAD_Brooklyn]

31 minutes ago, GangGreen Machine said:

I understand sacks are a team effort. You won’t here me argue that one pass rusher changes a defense.
 

But let’s be logical with this regime. Carl Lawson, Sheldon Rankins, Vinny Curry, JFM extended. The writing is on the wall. Front 7 is the straw that stirs the drink. 

As an edge you can bat down passes just as many times as a break up as pass as a CB. You can hurry the QB, you can put a wallop on him to remind him your there, you can sack him, you can force fumbles, you can set the edge and run defend, you can get a tackle for loss.

I mean I can go on and on but at the end of the day we all need to realize that DB just isn’t a priority to this coaching staff. it’s not who we would like to see out there, heck I love Sauce. It’s who the system can benefit the most from. 

DB isn't a priority to the coaching staff? If that's the case they should have let Maye walk instead of franchising him. 

This isn't directly at you but more so collectively to the crowd that echoes that notion of CB not being important. Does anyone thing we could have just struck out on signing a FA CB, placing us in a desperate position to draft and sign 4 rookie CBs? We'll find out this FA and draft.

As I mentioned earlier, I want a pass rusher, however if Thib and Hutchinson are gone there's  no reason why we can't draft Sauce at 4 and look for a DE at 10 or day 2.

Arnold Ebiketie, Kingsley Enagbare, Cameron Thomas, Myjai Sanders, Nik Bonitto ...

There's not as much drop from them to potential 4th overall draft candidates Johnson, Walker or Karlaftis then it is from Sauces to Elam or Jalen Pitre. They guys in bewteen may go 1st round due to the lack of depth. But this is a mute point to use as you feel the staff doesn't place much value at all in CBs. 

[GangGreen Machine]

2 minutes ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

DB isn't a priority to the coaching staff? If that's the case they should have let Maye walk instead of franchising him. 

This isn't directly at you but more so collectively to the crowd that echoes that notion of CB not being important. Does anyone thing we could have just struck out on signing a FA CB, placing us in a desperate position to draft and sign 4 rookie CBs? We'll find out this FA and draft.

As I mentioned earlier, I want a pass rusher, however if Thib and Hutchinson are gone there's  no reason why we can't draft Sauce at 4 and look for a DE at 10 or day 2.

Arnold Ebiketie, Kingsley Enagbare, Cameron Thomas, Myjai Sanders, Nik Bonitto ...

There's not as much drop from them to potential 4th overall draft candidates Johnson, Walker or Karlaftis then it is from Sauces to Elam or Jalen Pitre. They guys in bewteen may go 1st round due to the lack of depth. But this is a mute point to use as you feel the staff doesn't place much value at all in CBs. 

Maye and Sauce play different positions. They tagged Maye, signed and then resigned Joyner, and drafted Davis in the 3rd. Safety seems to hold a little bit more of a priority than CB. Just my observations.

My wordage should have been CB is not a priority. This doesn't mean that its not an important position. This coaching staff just seems to have a history of thinking they can "coach up" late round picks.

I think the coaching staff can find a average vet CB to do what they need.   

[JohnnyLV]

16 hours ago, Maxman said:

@AFJF and I had a conversation today and we both said the same thing. Sauce isn't going to be there at 10.  Taking him at 4 is looking like the pick.

Free agency shapes things but with so many needs, they aren't going to spend on a CB in free agency. 

IF we pick at 4 I can see that, but I don't love any option at 4. If I am the Jets I am proactively shopping the #4 pick hard. Very Very hard

[JohnnyLV]

5 hours ago, slats said:

I’m not sure that Thibs is the consensus guy, anyway, so I’m not worried about him being off the board when they pick. They should have these Edges thoroughly scouted, and they should take their top guy at #4 rather than wait and see what’s still available at #10 (or in the second round?!?). 
 

What if Saleh and JD don't believe any of them are Top 10 talent? He has already said there is no Bosa like guy.

You still reaching for an EDGE?

Don't understand Walker getting pushed up so much. He seems like a super risky pick to me , where people are projecting he will get better at pass rushing. He could very well just be a midrange run stuffing sub 10 sack guy.

KT is a super high risk with an advanced case of Jamal disease and a reputation for not working hard and only caring about his brand

Jermaine Johnson on tape looks like a back half of first round 2nd round guy

Ojabo and Karleftis are super reaches at 4

To be honest, I think we need to be prepared to not get an EDGE in RD 1 because value is not there. Maybe we can get someone like Mafe at the beginning of the 2nd. 

Saleh made a statement that they sort of had them all bunched together. I doubt they are lumped together at Top 5 positions

[JohnnyLV]

5 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Let me put this another way.  When you draft at #4 - you are hoping for a Pro-Bowl level player.

 

Who would you rather have

Trent Williams/Slater/Wirfs/Lane Johnson/Q Nelson or

TJ Watt/Garrett/Bosa or

Diggs/Ramsay/JC Jackson/Terrell/Beyard/Baker/Fitzpatrick

 

Adams/Kupp/Chase/Jefferson

It's pretty obvious that the OL/Edge players are far more valuable than the DBS.  It's not even close.  WRs are also more valuable by far. The Jets should prioritize Edge/OL or even WR with the 4 and same with 10.  Taking DBs with one or both is idiotic.  The Jets did the same thing when they used the Revis pick for Milliner.  If they use the Adams pick to take his replacement at a position of low significance, then Douglas is no better than his predecessors.

Not a great comparison. It is hugely unlikely there is anyone close to the three EDGE you listed in this draft.