Rosenblatt article on offensive collapse: Zach sucked, players preffered Mike White

[Dcat]

2 minutes ago, mrcoops said:

So, basically, Zach is bad, the team knows he is bad, he failed to take accountability for being bad, MLF is too aloof, doesn't relate well to his players, isn't flexible, and wasn't a good enough OC to compensate for Zach being bad.

[LIJetsFan]

2 minutes ago, mrcoops said:

So, basically, Zach is bad, the team knows he is bad, he failed to take accountability for being bad, MLF is too aloof, doesn't relate well to his players, isn't flexible, and wasn't a good enough OC to compensate for Zach being bad.

THIS ^^

(end thread)

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Rosenblatt in The Athletic with a little deep dive into what happened with LaFleur. Pretty much what we observed and heard from @football guy and @Mogglez, but the takeaway is that Zach sucked, the receivers didn’t want to play with him, Saleh was a weak, passive jellyfish, LaFleur took the brunt of the blame even though he hated Zach, and when White got hurt against the Bills, the season was over. Good read, even if it’s well covered ground for us. 
 

https://theathletic.com/4091050/2023/01/19/jets-offense-zach-wilson-robert-saleh-mike-lafleur/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=5932978

a quote:

Meanwhile, Zach Wilson sought to find the “fun” in football again. He called some former NFL quarterbacks who hit rough patches early in their careers for advice: Kurt Warner, Drew Brees and Young. Warner told The Athletic that he “enjoyed” talking to Wilson and getting to know him, though he wanted to keep their conversation private. He did say that Wilson’s willingness to make those calls is a positive sign.

“I think there’s a lot of things to learn when you’re open to believing you still have something to learn, and areas you can grow,” Warner said. “I respect him a lot for reaching out and listening … (but) it’s one thing to reach out and listen, and it’s another thing to be willing to do what it takes to change.”

 

Mike LaFleur’s offense initially took off under Mike White (above), but it crashed after White’s rib injury pushed Zach Wilson back into the starting lineup. (Mark Konezny / USA Today)

The Jets had planned to keep Wilson benched through the end of the season, but White suffered fractured ribs against the Bills in Week 14. Saleh named Wilson the starter for Week 15. In practice that week, Wilson threw a series of incompletions during team drills that frustrated Jets receivers, and the struggles carried into games.

Article is sort of BS in terms of conclusions. Of course the team preferred White after the NE game. But there are many players on record saying they were still behind him.

The problem with this article and the whole "Zach was the problem" idea is that the end of the season pretty much showed that LaFleur was the majority of the problem because the team struggled the same way without him.

But even before that, LaFleur's ONE job was to develop Zach. He failed. But then to hear that LaFleur hated Zach well then you know that LaFleur wanted Zach to not be his QB which explains in part why he NEVER put Zach in a position to win. If Saleh knew this LaFleur should have been fired then,

The reality is that if the OC is actively anti-Zach that will filter down to the team and when you look at the results down the line it becomes obvious that you cannot give up on Zach. 

The Jets from a coaching standpoint could not have possibly handled Zach worse. And I am sick of the revisionist history that he was somehow overdrafted. He wasn't. If we take Fields SF takes Zach and everyone thinks Shanahan is a QB whisperer.

[football guy]

44 minutes ago, Dcat said:

and for sh*t's sake, MLF must learn how to make eye-contact and communicate effectively with his players.  The dude is socially inept for an NFL Coordinator position, which requires strong leadership skills.  MLF has a personality issue that he must address to be successful in this league.

He took leadership training courses last offseason. Clearly that didn't help. 

I think MLF has a very strong football mind and can wind up being a great OC in the right environment, but he has a long way to go if he's going to end up a HC. I honestly don't see that route for him. 

[NYJCAP2]

3 hours ago, derp said:

Was a good article. I honestly think Saleh has shielded a variety of big and small mistakes that Joe Douglas has made. Saleh is absolutely not blameless but he takes more heat and Douglas is far more responsible for the mess.

This offseason the Jets are a 7-10 team with no quarterback, tackles, center, or cap space. They’re not heading into an Ozzie Newsome methodical offseason, we’re heading into a pick your Mike (Tannenbaum, Maccagnan) scramble to throw together a roster type offseason. 

Agree about Saleh, disagree about JD. Jets future cap years are in great shape.

The Jets have a quality combo here, they should let this play out, but they won’t because well they do Jets things.

[peekskill68]

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Is it stubborness, or was it that he was just too inexeperienced to this? Nothing I saw from him here told me he was remotely qualified for this job, which encompassed bringing along a raw highly drafted QB.

To me, the person/people who brought in MLF need to have some accountability here

That's my read as well.  MLF really is suited to be a Passing Game Coordinator at this stage of his career.  There needs to be an OC over him feeling the pulse of the players, seeing their strengths and weaknesses and overlaying that insight on LaFleur's ability to design plays and call the game.

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, Dcat said:

Unless Zach looks like Joe Montana in camp, the veteran they bring in will start and zach will hold the clipboard until such time as that vet gets injured.   If they start Zach after another terrible camp, essentially doing a redo of the dumb decision they made in '22,  then they will all be fired.  If Saleh and Douglas are dumb enough to hang their hats on Zach Wilson, then they deserve to go.  They won't and I ope they bring in a vet who doesn't have an atrocious injury history. 

What vet are they really going to get? 

They are already up against the cap. It's a new system and a terrible line. 

They are going to sign like a trubisky or minshew type and Zach will start again 

This whole fire MLF thing is a Zach rehab program 

[cat999]

1 hour ago, IndianaJet said:

This.

When Bowles was here, all people did was scream that he focused on the defense only.

When Gase was here, all people did was scream that he focused on the offense only.

I'm old enough to remember January of 2021 when 99% of the board wanted a CEO type coach, who would act as a CEO overseeing the team but leave the micromanagement of the players to his coordinators and staff.  Saleh, even though his background was defense, was that guy.

Now, people have every right to hate on Saleh for how the team has been run and some of the decisions he made...but to criticize him because he wasn't micromanaging or coaching specific players enough is revisionist history.

I think the criticism of Saleh as CEO that is warranted here is knowing when to stay at arms length and when to get more involved. It's a difficult call to make and Saleh is clearly still learning, but a CEO can take a closer look at.specifc areas and ask the right questions without micro managing needlessly. Again it's a delicate balance and from the article it seems Saleh defaulted to giving MLF too much latitude vs taking a more hands on approach. If he had retained a senior offensive assistant, maybe then he wouldn't have had to intervene earlier, but as mentioned, that might end up being his fatal mistake. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Saleh was a weak, passive jellyfish

Lol, you keep saying this for not being able to get MK to stay healthy long enough to,win a job, the article doesn’t say that.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, peekskill68 said:

That's my read as well.  MLF really is suited to be a Passing Game Coordinator at this stage of his career.  There needs to be an OC over him feeling the pulse of the players, seeing their strengths and weaknesses and overlaying that insight on LaFleur's ability to design plays and call the game.

Yeah, I mean if the Jets had any coordination among GM/HC/OC, they would have done one of two things: Either bring in MLF and a veteran QB, even keeping Darnold, or if drafting a young raw QB/, bringing in an experienced OC who has brought along young QB's before. They did the exact wrong thing, as usual.

I kind of feel bad for MLF, because hes not the idiot who did this, but he is the only one who got fired. He would have been 2nd or 3rd on my fire list behind Saleh and JD

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

What vet are they really going to get? 

They are already up against the cap. It's a new system and a terrible line. 

They are going to sign like a trubisky or minshew type and Zach will start again 

This whole fire MLF thing is a Zach rehab program 

No its not, Zach is done here, if he is on the roster, its only because of his cap hit, there is no chance the Jets go in with any hopes around ZW next year, zero

[Cbucco19]

7 minutes ago, football guy said:

He took leadership training courses last offseason. Clearly that didn't help. 

I think MLF has a very strong football mind and can wind up being a great OC in the right environment, but he has a long way to go if he's going to end up a HC. I honestly don't see that route for him. 

All your posts make me want a Qb coach over a passing game coord !! Hopefully it’s Johnson or Brady 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, JiFields said:

The only person who hasnt failed Zach Wilson, is Zach Wilson.

Believing that Zach Wilson is a starting QB is going to force more job losses than the metoo movement. 

[football guy]

2 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Article is sort of BS in terms of conclusions. Of course the team preferred White after the NE game. But there are many players on record saying they were still behind him.

The problem with this article and the whole "Zach was the problem" idea is that the end of the season pretty much showed that LaFleur was the majority of the problem because the team struggled the same way without him.

But even before that, LaFleur's ONE job was to develop Zach. He failed. But then to hear that LaFleur hated Zach well then you know that LaFleur wanted Zach to not be his QB which explains in part why he NEVER put Zach in a position to win. If Saleh knew this LaFleur should have been fired then,

The reality is that if the OC is actively anti-Zach that will filter down to the team and when you look at the results down the line it becomes obvious that you cannot give up on Zach. 

The Jets from a coaching standpoint could not have possibly handled Zach worse. And I am sick of the revisionist history that he was somehow overdrafted. He wasn't. If we take Fields SF takes Zach and everyone thinks Shanahan is a QB whisperer.

LaFleur didn't hate Zach. The problem was that he had an expectation out of Zach but was not willing or able to put in the work with Zach to get him where he wanted him to be. Instead of easing him into that or taking more of a hands-on approach with him, he simply stuck to his scheme and wanted the player to figure out how to meet the expectations of him with his positional coach. There was no room for the player to ask the coordinator "why"... When LaFleur felt the heat, he blamed it on the QB. I don't think he did so with malice, but instead of confronting any issues that were present, his strategy was to avoid it or cast people off to the side to figure it out on their own time... 

It's not a scheme thing, it's a Mike LaFleur thing. Look at how the Shanahan's operated with RGIII. It was arguably the opposite of what we did with Zach. They built an offense around what RGIII did well, and it was RGIII who petitioned them to run less and throw from the pocket more when the Shanahans knew he wasn't ready for it. When Kyle went to coach in Cleveland, he decided to leave the organization because they wanted to start Johnny Manziel in year 2 when Kyle said he was not ready. Look at how Sean McVay adjusted his offense by implementing spread/air raid into his scheme in order to accommodate Goff. Look at what Matt LaFleur did to accommodate Marcus Mariota. Yes they tend to be a little stricter than most, but not nearly as rigid as Mike LaFleur was. Everything needed to be perfect for his offense to succeed, and if it wasn't perfect it was downright horrible. Most offenses can't operate with such slim margins for error. 

[football guy]

4 minutes ago, Cbucco19 said:

All your posts make me want a Qb coach over a passing game coord !! Hopefully it’s Johnson or Brady 

I think that's the route they go, but if they don't they will bring in an experienced QB coach to preside over that operation. Personally I expect Rob Calabrese to be reassigned... good chance he becomes the WR coach or a "passing game analyst" of sorts

[Flea Flicking Frank]

You want a real summary: Jets are run like an uncoordinated, mess of an organization designed to disguise where the incompetence is actually coming from. So the two lowest on the totem pole, ZW and MLF get the blame. MLF was removable, ZW may or may not be based on contract. But the people who setup the structure remain very much in tact to keep making the same mistakes and taking money

[SickJetFan]

https://twitter.com/TheAthletic/status/1616089638036467713/photo/2

We'll have one route but it has a bunch of different names

lol

[derp]

20 minutes ago, NYJCAP2 said:

Agree about Saleh, disagree about JD. Jets future cap years are in great shape.

The Jets have a quality combo here, they should let this play out, but they won’t because well they do Jets things.

You are absolutely entitled, but those future cap years are going to get eaten into figuring out this year and he’s made some dreadful roster construction decisions in addition to whiffing at quarterback. I’m absolutely calling my shot a little early and I’d love to be wrong but I think he’s going to collapse.

[SickJetFan]

i didnt read the article (pay wall) and realize not much new was said in it except for maybe the words Moore had with MLF which is new sounds like with exact phrasing.

so who leaked?

 

my guess although probably not fair I know but my guess is the big dumb bunny rabbit

[Another Guy]

JD poorly hedged (Flacco/white) a high risk investment (Zach). That’s a pretty basic miss given the amount of influence on the player portfolio that a QB has.  And it is a valid reason to question his judgment.  

[Larz]

2 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Joe Douglas drafted the wrong guy and MLF got fired for it

Plain and simple

False. 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

Whatever the need is to scapegoat everything on Zach , Moore and Wilson hated lafleur too. When you can’t score a TD in a month it’s not all Zach’s parents. It’s just not. There is a lot of blame to go around, JD, Saleh, lafleur, Zach, Mike, Moore, injuries to oline, Tomlinson stealing money and where was Flacco veteraning this thing up ?

 

 

Larz I think the picture Rosenblatt paints here is a common one for any team that drafts a bust QB: everyone within the blast radius gets burned alive. Consider the careers that Trubisky ended; Darnold is about to get his fourth(?) coach fired; Sanchez and Geno; Mariota, etc etc etc. Consider that Zach Wilson was uniquely bad, even among that group. So, no, all the blame doesn’t fall on Zach, but the org is in tatters *because* they drafted Zach Wilson and were hell-bent on making that work. 

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

i didnt read the article (pay wall) and realize not much new was said in it except for maybe the words Moore had with MLF which is new sounds like with exact phrasing.

so who leaked?

 

my guess although probably not fair I know but my guess is the big dumb bunny rabbit

I’m guessing the “former Jets receiver who was around the team this summer” is Enunwa.

[C Mart]

32 minutes ago, football guy said:

He took leadership training courses last offseason. Clearly that didn't help. 

I think MLF has a very strong football mind and can wind up being a great OC in the right environment, but he has a long way to go if he's going to end up a HC. I honestly don't see that route for him. 

Probably why he wants to go and coach under McVay...McVay has alot of ex HC/OC working for him as "analysts, research guys"

[SickJetFan]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m guessing the “former Jets receiver who was around the team this summer” is Enunwa.

yeah but he would not have been inside locker room or coaches offices during the outburst

did they let go of any WR during season?  I dont remember

[32EBoozer]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

Exactly. It all came to a head on November 21. Zach walked into Saleh's office and looked absolutely defeated. None of his teammates spoke to him all morning and it clearly got to him. Saleh saw a broken kid and determined it was time to step in. He got everyone in a room and demanded to know what the offensive coaches were seeing as it pertained to Zach. This shouldn't be pulling teeth... 

Where the hell are the leaders in that locker room.... CJ, Uzomah, Whitehead, McGovern, etc?

You don't banish the kid.... He's 22 and lost. Stand up for the kid at the least. As a father & manager, this is what you do.

[JiFtheOracle]

32 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Believing that Zach Wilson is a starting QB is going to force more job losses than the metoo movement. 

Last year it was clearly John Beck's fault which is why the staff didnt invite him back.  This year it's clearly Lil Mikey's fault.  Next year Saleh's?  But JD will still always brilliant for seeing the kernels of talent that could have been! 

 

 

[Paradis]

4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Rosenblatt in The Athletic with a little deep dive into what happened with LaFleur. Pretty much what we observed and heard from @football guy and @Mogglez, but the takeaway is that Zach sucked, the receivers didn’t want to play with him, Saleh was a weak, passive jellyfish, LaFleur took the brunt of the blame even though he hated Zach, and when White got hurt against the Bills, the season was over. Good read, even if it’s well covered ground for us. 
 

https://theathletic.com/4091050/2023/01/19/jets-offense-zach-wilson-robert-saleh-mike-lafleur/?source=pulsenewsletter&campaign=5932978

a quote:

Meanwhile, Zach Wilson sought to find the “fun” in football again. He called some former NFL quarterbacks who hit rough patches early in their careers for advice: Kurt Warner, Drew Brees and Young. Warner told The Athletic that he “enjoyed” talking to Wilson and getting to know him, though he wanted to keep their conversation private. He did say that Wilson’s willingness to make those calls is a positive sign.

“I think there’s a lot of things to learn when you’re open to believing you still have something to learn, and areas you can grow,” Warner said. “I respect him a lot for reaching out and listening … (but) it’s one thing to reach out and listen, and it’s another thing to be willing to do what it takes to change.”

 

Mike LaFleur’s offense initially took off under Mike White (above), but it crashed after White’s rib injury pushed Zach Wilson back into the starting lineup. (Mark Konezny / USA Today)

The Jets had planned to keep Wilson benched through the end of the season, but White suffered fractured ribs against the Bills in Week 14. Saleh named Wilson the starter for Week 15. In practice that week, Wilson threw a series of incompletions during team drills that frustrated Jets receivers, and the struggles carried into games.

Not to throw shade on @football guy cause I agree with his coaching assessment, but he was stoic in his pronouncement that “getting Zach back on the field was ALWAYS plan…” yatta yatta Detroit, etc

It was never the plan. 

[win4ever]

MLF reminds me of my AP Calculus teacher in high school.  One of the smartest math guys I've ever met, could easily solve equations I didn't even understand.  He had 8 kids in the class, and all of them graduated top 10.   Not a single one of us understood calculus that year, the AP test was bombed by everyone because he just didn't know how to teach.  He could show you how it's done, but he couldn't make any of us actually understand the process of how it's done.  

MLF reminds me of the guy.  He's scheming up open receivers, but he doesn't teach the process on how it occurs.  Going back to math, it was like the example question in a workbook that showed you how it's done.  But the very next question had one extra quirk and you had no idea how to deal with it.   This was my reply on Reddit to a similar question about MLF and the pros and cons.

Pro: He's good at scheming guys open, and that's a fairly overused phrase. In essence, he does a good job of moving guys around to have favorable matchups, and route combinations to get guys open.

I'm going to use a flood concept to the field side as an example, with three options. A quick hitter to the RB, a mid cross to a TE from the boundary side, and a deep cross from the boundary side as well. A deep clear out from the field side receiver. It's a concept that everyone uses, nothing fancy. The idea is that the QB rolls out into space, he has 3 tier level options with the option to run if all are well covered in man coverage.

The good part is that MLF moves around receivers late that the TE on the mid cross has inside leverage on the LB, the safety bites on the deep clear out, giving you a shot at the deep cross as well. The outlet to the RB is standard, nothing special about it. On tape, 2 of the guys are open, QB takes the outlet to RB for short gain.

He schemed up a good play, guys are open. He's very good at that.

The downside is that the scheme rarely has contingencies for unpredictable events.

Let's take the same play concept.

However in this case, the safety doesn't bite on the clear out, therefore the deep cross pattern is now out as an option. The second linebacker blitzes off the field side edge, but the RB releases out of the pocket.

At this point, the deep cross is covered, the TE hasn't made it across the formation yet, and since he's not hot, he isn't ready for the ball. The QB either has to evade the LB blitz, or dump it quickly to the RB. Defenses started to expect the quick dump off and having defenders ready for the RB quick pass.

What he needed to adjust was, the clear out needs a dual purpose. Instead of just clearing out, it needs a secondary route option so if things break down, they have a deep post. The RB needs to do a chip block release, because part of the set up is timing, and delaying the LB allows the TE to cross the formation.

Unfortunately he doesn't seem to do a good job of teaching, rather he does a good job of creating. The part that he's missing right now is getting the players to understand how to execute the system when defenses don't respect parts of the offense.

Going back to the flood concept, if defenses don't respect the clear out and RB release, your options are very limited. You then have to take deep shots across the field to readjust their plan. Unfortunately, he sticks to the gameplan (admittedly good at implementation), and that means low ceiling plays with 3 and outs.

[Wit]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

Not to throw shade on @football guy cause I agree with his coaching assessment, but he was stoic in his pronouncement that “getting Zach back on the field was ALWAYS plan…” yatta yatta Detroit, etc

It was never the plan. 

I think there just wasnt a plan anymore. They ruined Zach, whose ceiling was already Kirk Cousins and they didn't know what to do. 

[JiFtheOracle]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

Not to throw shade on @football guy cause I agree with his coaching assessment, but he was stoic in his pronouncement that “getting Zach back on the field was ALWAYS plan…” yatta yatta Detroit, etc

It was never the plan. 

[T0mShane]

7 minutes ago, JiFields said:

Last year it was clearly John Beck's fault which is why the staff didnt invite him back.  This year it's clearly Lil Mikey's fault.  Next year Saleh's?  But JD will still always brilliant for seeing the kernels of talent that could have been! 

 

 

Mike LaFleur is walking into the Rams OC job. We’re interviewing coaching backbenchers trying to get them to come here and resurrect Zach Wilson’s career while the owner of the team is openly talking about spending top dollar to bring in his replacement. But, yes, the problem was Mike LaFleur.

[RutgersJetFan]

3 minutes ago, win4ever said:

MLF reminds me of my AP Calculus teacher in high school.  One of the smartest math guys I've ever met, could easily solve equations I didn't even understand.  He had 8 kids in the class, and all of them graduated top 10.   Not a single one of us understood calculus that year, the AP test was bombed by everyone because he just didn't know how to teach. 

Maybe the eight of you just sucked.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

Joe Douglas drafted the wrong guy and MLF got fired for it

Plain and simple

Wrong

[RutgersJetFan]

28 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m guessing the “former Jets receiver who was around the team this summer” is Enunwa.

I'm going with Curtis Conway.