Dan Orlovsky: Jets WR Duo No. 3 In AFC

[rex-n-effect]

51 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know what to make of Lazard.  He truly sucked.  I would hope that playing with Rodgers would reinvigorate him back to being at least a serviceable #3/slot option, but if the rumors they were shopping him are true they probably don't believe that.

I don't believe Lazard has ever played slot but he isn't exactly built to play slot, either. It makes way more sense to put him as WR4/5 primarily as a backup to the outside receivers. The Jets need to come up with a legit slot receiver this offseason.

 

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

I don't believe Lazard has ever played slot but he isn't exactly built to play slot, either..

 

Yes, he has. In GB, he lined up in the slot on 42.8% of his total snaps:

 

https://jetsxfactor.com/2023/03/17/ny-jets-allen-lazard-breakdown/

[Augustiniak]

6 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

I don't believe Lazard has ever played slot but he isn't exactly built to play slot, either. It makes way more sense to put him as WR4/5 primarily as a backup to the outside receivers. The Jets need to come up with a legit slot receiver this offseason.

 

bowers is the slot.  book it. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

5 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

I don't believe Lazard has ever played slot but he isn't exactly built to play slot, either. It makes way more sense to put him as WR4/5 primarily as a backup to the outside receivers. The Jets need to come up with a legit slot receiver this offseason.

 

G Wilson can play in the slot. Hell - Mike Williams played in the slot. If you get Bowers - SLOT. 

Plenty of options. 

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, bonkertons said:

 

Outside of his first two years, Smith has been named at least a PBer in every season he's played more than 4 games.  He's about as consistent of a PB talent as you can find in the league.  If he plays 13+ games next year, he'll be a Pro Bowler.

Rodgers has been mvp 2 out of the last 4 years 

The past does not mean sh*t. Smith is a 2nd team all pro that's what he is. He has not made the pro bowl since 2021 fwiw 

1 minute ago, bonkertons said:

 

I think even the most pessimistic fans would admit that AVT is "good". 

 

I'd say Moses is "good" and AVT is at the very least a tier above him. 

Both of these players are "good" but not great and both are coming off major injuries 

1 minute ago, bonkertons said:

 

Tippmann and Simpson are the most unproven but based on what we saw last year, there is a lot to be encouraged about.  At the very least they are solid starters on paper.  

OK so we've got one very good in Smith (A-) and that's being generous. The rest are B and C+, assuming they all play 

1 minute ago, bonkertons said:

How many teams out there have multiple PB OL?  DAL, DET, CLE.  Philly isn't anymore with Kelce retiring.  SF, considered to have this elite OL, only had one PBer.  But yes, 4 teams.  3 of them in the NFC.  

KCC has 2, Bal had 2 but lost Zeitler and indy has 2 

Buffalo, Miami and Cleveland all have one 

And again that 2nd team all pro is a nice honor but the Jets have zero 

That's 6 teams in the afc with better lines than the Jets 

But this is all pending the draft 

If the Jets back into alt or fuaga they could climb into top 5 status 

 

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

That's not true 

The best lines have all pros and current pro bowlers and the Jets have neither 

Tyron Smith was an all-pro in 2023

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Rodgers has been mvp 2 out of the last 4 years 

The past does not mean sh*t. Smith is a 2nd team all pro that's what he is. He has not made the pro bowl since 2021 fwiw 

Both of these players are "good" but not great and both are coming off major injuries 

OK so we've got one very good in Smith (A-) and that's being generous. The rest are B and C+, assuming they all play 

KCC has 2, Bal had 2 but lost Zeitler and indy has 2 

Buffalo, Miami and Cleveland all have one 

And again that 2nd team all pro is a nice honor but the Jets have zero 

That's 6 teams in the afc with better lines than the Jets 

But this is all pending the draft 

If the Jets back into alt or fuaga they could climb into top 5 status 

 

"Preach, Brother Bit!"

 

  - Joe "rather be  lucky than good" Douglas

[ultraJETfan]

This past season was all worth it for the joy I've experienced in the last week and a half. 

Thank you Joe Douglas! Thank you!

[Bobby816]

Draft Odunze at 10 and we have the best WR room in the NFL.

[slats]

37 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

Same with oline though. The drop-off is big. Also an injury on the oline might be more problematic. 

It’s all opinion, but I’d disagree. I think the OL has a lot better depth. I prefer Mitchell or Warren stepping in at OT over Brownlee or Lazard starting outside. I think the OL can survive an injury or two to the starters, but losing Wilson or Williams for any stretch would be pretty devastating. 

[#27TheDominator]

10 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

I don't believe Lazard has ever played slot but he isn't exactly built to play slot, either. It makes way more sense to put him as WR4/5 primarily as a backup to the outside receivers. The Jets need to come up with a legit slot receiver this offseason.

 

What does "built to play slot" mean?  You are still lined up wide.  I get that some guys excel at different spots, but acting like it is an entirely different position seems nuts to me.  Put my at x, y or z,  Wide, tight, flanker.  I'm going to beat you off the line and get open.  Jimmy Graham played over 50% of his snaps from the slot some years.  Is he "built to play slot?" 

Depending on the source, the time period and who you believe, Lazard played between 20 and over 50% of his snaps in GB out of the slot.   I think last year the Jets used him there less, but that experiment was an obvious failure anyway. 

[Ulrich]

2 hours ago, bonkertons said:

Same with our OL IMO.  When fully healthy they're probably a top-5 unit in the AFC.  Only question is how many games they actually play together as a full unit.

Indeed. Jets need quality o-line depth 

[Doggin94it]

"Tyron Smith was merely named the second best left tackle in all of football last year, not the very best. That's not great, it's just good.

Much like second team All-Pro Micah Parsons and not-even-All-Pro QBs Pat Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Jalen Hurts. Good but not great players, all of them"

[Doggin94it]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

It’s all opinion, but I’d disagree. I think the OL has a lot better depth. I prefer Mitchell or Warren stepping in at OT over Brownlee or Lazard starting outside. I think the OL can survive an injury or two to the starters, but losing Wilson or Williams for any stretch would be pretty devastating. 

FWIW I think you're right about the depth being better on the OL (Warren is comparatively better than Lazard if we need an injury replacement, so the drop off will be less) but wrong because the impact from the drop off in play is greater when it's the OL than the WR. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Morrissey said:

i personally don't give a sh*t about winning off-seasons or being good on paper. it's uninteresting and meaningless.

Would you rather we were bad on paper?  Like, say, 2017-2022?

[CTJetsFan]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

It’s all opinion, but I’d disagree. I think the OL has a lot better depth. I prefer Mitchell or Warren stepping in at OT over Brownlee or Lazard starting outside. I think the OL can survive an injury or two to the starters, but losing Wilson or Williams for any stretch would be pretty devastating. 

I've been going back and forth between OT & WR at 10. I think this post may sum up why we should go WR (if we can't trade back).

The other question I keep asking myself is: which position group (as currently constituted) improves more with just having AR on the field: OT/O-Line or WR? The one that improves the least is the one we should probably look to draft and add more talent to.

[slats]

1 minute ago, Doggin94it said:

FWIW I think you're right about the depth being better on the OL (Warren is comparatively better than Lazard if we need an injury replacement, so the drop off will be less) but wrong because the impact from the drop off in play is greater when it's the OL than the WR. 

Conversely, the impact that one of the top three WRs could have on a healthy offense should easily be significantly greater than that of a rookie OT, and I don’t think it’s even remotely close. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't know what to make of Lazard.  He truly sucked.  I would hope that playing with Rodgers would reinvigorate him back to being at least a serviceable #3/slot option, but if the rumors they were shopping him are true they probably don't believe that.

Either that or they are just kicking the tires to see if they can dump his salary. The rumor was someone else inquiring, but to be fair that can still be a planted Jets-FO fabrication on the off-chance it gets a real person to ask him. 

The hope is it's a combination of things that correct this year:

1. It's the first major money he's seen

2. His contract not just for the year but for the next year also was fully guaranteed. Now he's got $0 guaranteed after this season so it's another audition for his next contract.

3. Zach vs. Rodgers reason 1: the obvious skill disparity (on top of history together)

4. Zach vs. Rodgers reason 2: the obvious leadership disparity (again, on top of history together)

5. Zach vs. Rodgers reason 3: he decided the season was in the crapper as soon as Zach took over, and within a month, the newly cash-rich Lazard acted like he didn't GAF about the Jets' season anymore. 

All these reasons are terrible, and all inexcusable for the extreme dropoff down to zero (including an outright benching).

Still, even if they're bad reasons, it doesn't mean they aren't reasons. Each of them could correct with the change at QB. 

...or he could be a useless sack of ball sweat again. 

[bonkertons]

22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Rodgers has been mvp 2 out of the last 4 years 

The past does not mean sh*t. Smith is a 2nd team all pro that's what he is. He has not made the pro bowl since 2021 fwiw 

Both of these players are "good" but not great and both are coming off major injuries 

OK so we've got one very good in Smith (A-) and that's being generous. The rest are B and C+, assuming they all play 

KCC has 2, Bal had 2 but lost Zeitler and indy has 2 

Buffalo, Miami and Cleveland all have one 

And again that 2nd team all pro is a nice honor but the Jets have zero 

That's 6 teams in the afc with better lines than the Jets 

But this is all pending the draft 

If the Jets back into alt or fuaga they could climb into top 5 status 

 

Dude WHAT?  The fact that you're refusing to count Smith as a Pro Bowler is just so weird.  Like you're going out of your way to make some bad faith argument.  Also for the 900th time, "when healthy".  How many times do I have to make that caveat?  Even the original post you responded to was "when healthy".  We all know there are injury concerns.  Doesn't change the fact that when that group of 5 is on the field, they'll be one of the better units in the AFC and should pretty easily be top-5.

 

Also weird how you list Miami as a team with a Pro Bowler but not us.  Very odd.  If Smith doesn't make the cut in your mind, I'm not sure why Armstead does...but that's bitonti logic I suppose.

 

Also I enjoy how Fuaga, who won't even be in the lineup if our starting 5 are healthy, will somehow put us into the top-5.  Meanwhile you know for a fact if we draft him you will immediately think he sucks, or at the very least is overrated.  It's just the way.   

[GangGreened]

Well if Dan Orlovsky thinks so, I’m sold 

[Ulrich]

1 hour ago, Barton said:

Williams is a historically slow receiver, now coming off a torn ACL. Definitely a good player pre-injury. But being slow and then tearing your ACL at age 29 is probably not a good combination. Banking on him for anything more than 700 yards would be foolish. Point? Jets still need to add another ELITE skills receiver. 

He ran a 4.49 40 at his pro day. In the low 4.50s at the combine. Davante Adams, Jerry Rice and other greats have equal or slower 40 times.

When healthy he's produced good numbers.

But yeah at 29 coming off an ACL - I strongly agree Jets would be wise to add another quality WR. In a passing league no less

 

[hmhertz]

2 hours ago, slats said:

That’s nice, but then the next three guys are Gipson, Lazard, and Brownlee. And of course the caveat regarding Williams’ health. WR is a major need in this draft. 

Then draft the prospect that lead the nation in TD catches, his name is Brian Thomas

[bitonti]

25 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Warren is comparatively better than Lazard if we need an injury replacement, so the drop off will be less

Carter Warren had the same pff pass blocking grade as Mekhi Becton both were about 63 out of 91 OT 

He was worse in run blocking, 71 out of 91 

At one point he forgot he was on the extra point team and the Jets had to burn a timeout after a rare td. 

He's strong but flat footed. He's old by prospect standards and probably isn't going to get much better than he is 

I don't know why people think this player is any kind of serious option to play. It's Jets pr 100%

 

 

[Raideraholic]

3 hours ago, Ulrich said:

Behind Miami and Cincy’s top two WRs. Of course he said if Mike Williams is healthy & on the field. 

Hit home when Orlovsky said that yesterday on NFL Live. I hadn’t thought of it like that.

But when you take a closer look, yeah, he could be right. After all both Garrett & Williams have crazy talent, complement each other’s skill set and were top 10 picks. 

They are not better than the Raiders . Devante Adams 1a ,  Jakobi Meyer1b . and Tre Tucker( going to be star ).      How do you know it’s the off-season Jets hype is at it’s all time .  What’s next the Jets defense line is the best l.  Not even close, 

[Larz]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Carter Warren had the same pff pass blocking grade as Mekhi Becton both were about 63 out of 91 OT 

He was worse in run blocking, 71 out of 91 

At one point he forgot he was on the extra point team and the Jets had to burn a timeout after a rare td. 

He's strong but flat footed. He's old by prospect standards and probably isn't going to get much better than he is 

I don't know why people think this player is any kind of serious option to play. It's Jets pr 100%

 

 

If there are 64 starting tackles in the league, 63 isn’t bad for a backup 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

2 hours ago, Morrissey said:

i personally don't give a sh*t about winning off-seasons or being good on paper. it's uninteresting and meaningless.

Then why are you here in the off-season?

[bitonti]

12 minutes ago, bonkertons said:

Dude WHAT?  The fact that you're refusing to count Smith as a Pro Bowler is just so weird.  Like you're going out of your way to make some bad faith argument. 

Tyron Smith didn't make the 2023 pro bowl. He is a second team all pro which is a very similar grade though. 

12 minutes ago, bonkertons said:

Also for the 900th time, "when healthy".  How many times do I have to make that caveat?  

AVT and Moses aren't even healthy right now 

12 minutes ago, bonkertons said:

Also weird how you list Miami as a team with a Pro Bowler but not us.  Very odd.  If Smith doesn't make the cut in your mind, I'm not sure why Armstead does...but that's bitonti logic I suppose.

Because terron armstead made the 2024 pro bowl and Smith didn’t 

12 minutes ago, bonkertons said:

Also I enjoy how Fuaga, who won't even be in the lineup if our starting 5 are healthy, will somehow put us into the top-5.  Meanwhile you know for a fact if we draft him you will immediately think he sucks

For the record fuaga is my number 1 OL and has been since November. with the caveat that he's probably not a LT. Mike Iupati plus. A stud. I will admit when I am wrong. Just putting it out there 

He has real pro bowl potential as does fautanu from UW when guys like alt and olu are decent OT starters (mcglinchy, bolles, kolton Miller types) 

 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Tyron Smith didn't make the 2023 pro bowl. He is a second team all pro which is a very similar grade though. 

AVT and Moses aren't even healthy right now 

Because terron armstead made the 2024 pro bowl and Smith didn’t 

For the record fuaga is my number 1 OL and has been since November. with the caveat that he's probably not a LT. Mike Iupati plus. A stud. I will admit when I am wrong. Just putting it out there 

He has real pro bowl potential as does fautanu from UW when guys like alt and olu are decent OT starters (mcglinchy, bolles, kolton Miller types) 

 

Agree on fatanu, i think he’s the guy they take if they go OL.  He has legit LT feet and versatility.  

[bonkertons]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Tyron Smith didn't make the 2023 pro bowl. He is a second team all pro which is a very similar grade though. 

AVT and Moses aren't even healthy right now 

Because terron armstead made the 2024 pro bowl and Smith didn’t 

For the record fuaga is my number 1 OL and has been since November. with the caveat that he's probably not a LT. Mike Iupati plus. A stud. I will admit when I am wrong. Just putting it out there 

He has real pro bowl potential as does fautanu from UW when guys like alt and olu are decent OT starters (mcglinchy, bolles, kolton Miller types) 

 

Dude you're really going to get into the semantics of PB vs AP?  Everyone knows an AP is more valuable than a PB nod.  Gardner ******* Minshew was a Pro Bowler last year.  C'mon man.  

 

The 2nd sentence just made me question what I'm even doing here right now.  Thank you, for reminding me of how stupid this is.  God speed sir.

[Prodigal Syndicate]

Games aren't played on paper with a bunch of "ifs" thrown in.

So tired of the offseason fellatio every year.

Play the games and prove it.

You'd think jets fans would become wise to the talking heads puffing the Jets up so just they can tear them down more during the season by now.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

Great, I feel so much better now knowing Dan Orlovsky's views on the matter

Gonna go place that bet now on Jets WRs finishing 3rd in the AFC in total yardage

[#27TheDominator]

31 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Rodgers has been mvp 2 out of the last 4 years 

The past does not mean sh*t. Smith is a 2nd team all pro that's what he is. He has not made the pro bowl since 2021 fwiw 

Both of these players are "good" but not great and both are coming off major injuries 

OK so we've got one very good in Smith (A-) and that's being generous. The rest are B and C+, assuming they all play 

KCC has 2, Bal had 2 but lost Zeitler and indy has 2 

Buffalo, Miami and Cleveland all have one 

And again that 2nd team all pro is a nice honor but the Jets have zero 

That's 6 teams in the afc with better lines than the Jets 

But this is all pending the draft 

If the Jets back into alt or fuaga they could climb into top 5 status 

 

You are discounting 2nd team all-pro, but have 6 guys all-pro?  How exactly does that work?  We all know all-pro has some value, but the pro bowl is completely meaningless.  FWIW, Smith was 2nd team all-pro.  For 2023 KC had Thuney 1st team all-pro.  That's it.  Buffalo, Baltimore, Indy, Miami and Cleveland had none, 1st or 2nd team.  I guess we could go back to 2022, but the past does not mean sh*t.

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, bitonti said:

Tyron Smith didn't make the 2023 pro bowl. He is a second team all pro which is a very similar grade though. 

AVT and Moses aren't even healthy right now 

Because terron armstead made the 2024 pro bowl and Smith didn’t 

For the record fuaga is my number 1 OL and has been since November. with the caveat that he's probably not a LT. Mike Iupati plus. A stud. I will admit when I am wrong. Just putting it out there 

He has real pro bowl potential as does fautanu from UW when guys like alt and olu are decent OT starters (mcglinchy, bolles, kolton Miller types) 

 

Armstead was off the field for over 50% of Miami's offensive snaps last year. 

It's the second time in the last 3 seasons that's been the case with him, missing "only" 1/3 of the offensive snaps in the 2022 season in between.

He's been injured every year of late like Smith. Even when he was younger, Armstead has never once played an entire season without missing any games.

How many games before landing on IR - for either of them - has been more luck of the draw whether an injury occurred week 3 or week 8 or week 12. In between both have been on & off with nagging injuries that last all season.

When each is on the field, it's safe to say either is as good as any team needs a LT to be. Even if it unexpectedly happens for one or both this year, the reality is neither can be depended upon to start every game. 

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Conversely, the impact that one of the top three WRs could have on a healthy offense should easily be significantly greater than that of a rookie OT, and I don’t think it’s even remotely close. 

100% correct. If you're looking for "which player will most increase my chances of winning the Super Bowl if everyone stays healthy" then the WR is the far better pick than an OL (all else being roughly equal). If you're looking for "which player will most increase my chances of winning the Super Bowl by being acceptable depth if someone gets injured" that's an OL.

[Doggin94it]

52 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Carter Warren had the same pff pass blocking grade as Mekhi Becton both were about 63 out of 91 OT 

He was worse in run blocking, 71 out of 91 

At one point he forgot he was on the extra point team and the Jets had to burn a timeout after a rare td. 

He's strong but flat footed. He's old by prospect standards and probably isn't going to get much better than he is 

I don't know why people think this player is any kind of serious option to play. It's Jets pr 100%

 

 

"Among the top 64 tackles (i.e. very bottom tier starter) in the NFL" as a rookie 4th rounder who missed training camp with an injury is very different than "among the top 64 tackles (i.e. bottom tier starter)" as a 4th year vet drafted high in the first round. Do you want him starting a bunch of games for you? No. Could you live with (and scheme around) him if there's an injury and you need a 2-3 game fill-in for a starter? Yes. Would I like that spot upgraded? Also yes.