All Page 1 Zach Wilson Threads: MERGED

[QB1]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yeah, I hear this every cycle.  Sam supposed had "elite arm talent" and "elite accuracy" too.  I'm willing to bet you posted that claim yourself, Nico, at some point.  We're you also a huge Geno fanboi as well?  Pretty sure you were.  

 

 

Ok so by your logic every QB in the NFL is on an equal talent level and something indescribable by you mostly having to do with being drafted high determines whether they succeed or fail. Got it. 

[Sperm Edwards]

On 3/28/2021 at 4:23 PM, Samtorobby47 said:

I’m excited to see what he can do but he’s def gonna have a lot of turnovers, thinking he can get away with a lot. 

That second play is so bad, from movement in pocket to throwing it up for grabs. 

Yeah that's my concern more than anything. More than a minor throwing shoulder injury from HS that he got corrected later (certainly more than an injury to a non-throwing shoulder he got by taking on a runner after a pick). 

Sure those are right on the money, no doubt. The problem is those corners he's throwing against just suck ass. There are open receivers elsewhere in some of these  - and will be in the future - and he opted for the lower-percentage throw to a blanketed receiver. If it was swatted away does it matter that the throw was good? No. Now maybe he saw a checkdown option and made a decision to throw it deep based on knowing the DBs may make it look like tight coverages but really are there for show only, like Kyle Wilson for us, but that same confidence in college can easily be recklessness at the next level.

Doesn't mean it's going to happen - unless he's got Favre-like stubbornness, it's not incurable like someone who just has tunnel vision - but it'll have to be trained out of him to a degree, in favor of discipline. With a QB with this type of downfield accuracy, those are great throws to attempt when there's another half-yard of separation or more, or if the team is in a desperate enough situation (trailing late, or just 3rd & 20 situations where they're otherwise punting on the next down anyway). 

Getting him more disciplined will cost a couple big plays here or there; it'll also save 10x that number of interceptions & deflections. But - if the Jets do take him - it's good to see he can put it right there even when he isn't afforded the time/pocket to set his feet just right. 

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, QB1 said:

Ok so by your logic every QB in the NFL is on an equal talent level and something indescribable by you mostly having to do with being drafted high determines whether they succeed or fail. Got it. 

If you ever owned up to how wrong you've consistently been in your previous evaluations of Jets QB's, Sam, Geno, etc. maybe I wouldn't doubt your new evaluation so much, Nico.

Whatever "indescribable something" I have, which basically boils down to "healthy skepticism against hype", it's served me well compared to Darnold, Geno, Hackenberg, Sanchez Fanbois.  I'm 100% on doubting those QB's.  You're 0%.  

But hey, even a blind squirrel find a nut once in a while, so maybe Wilson will be your big win.  What's funny is you probably think that would bother me, lol.  I long to be proven wrong by a Jets QB.   40 years+ and haven't had it happen yet. 

 

[QB1]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

If you ever owned up to how wrong you've consistently been in your previous evaluations of Jets QB's, Sam, Geno, etc. maybe I wouldn't doubt your new evaluation so much, Nico.

Whatever "indescribable something" I have, which basically boils down to "healthy skepticism against hype", it's served me well compared to Darnold, Geno, Hackenberg, Sanchez Fanbois.  I'm 100% on doubting those QB's.  You're 0%.  

But hey, even a blind squirrel find a nut once in a while, so maybe Wilson will be your big win.  What's funny is you probably think that would bother me, lol.  I long to be proven wrong by a Jets QB.   40 years+ and haven't had it happen yet. 

 

No one is hyping Wilson. He is the player that we should draft at #2 overall, nothing more nothing less. 

[Dcat]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

This is setting up to be such a jet-like disaster.  We give up on Sam after he has back to back horrible head coaches and no supporting cast for an injury prone egg whose claim to fame is making “beautiful throws” facing Butthole State

Darnold is injury prone. For that 6'4 or 6'5 frame he gets hurt.  

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

This is setting up to be such a jet-like disaster.  We give up on Sam after he has back to back horrible head coaches and no supporting cast for an injury prone egg whose claim to fame is making “beautiful throws” facing Butthole State

Hasn't Sam missed more games due to injury over the lasat 3 seasons than Wilson has? 

LMAO.

I wish someone loved me like ya'll love Sam. 

[Dcat]

54 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Are there any criticisms of Wilson you DO find to be not flawed?

Also, what does Mahomes have to do with Wilson?  Different players of different sizes who played at different schools in different systems against different competition and will play for different teams in the NFL.  They literally share nothing whatsoever, so just because "Mahomes is great" means nothing to Wilson.  We could cite a dozen small school undersized QB's like WIlson who failed at the NFL level, why is the rare success the comparison, and not the more common failures?

I'm not endorsing Wilson.  I've been a Fields guy, so WTF are you talking about?  I'm criticizing the competition level argument because it's faulty and stupid.  Crap players on both sides of the field DO balance it out notwithstanding the "rise to another level b/c of your QB".  And if he did that, it's a good sign not a bad one.  Mahomes competition was pretty bad and it is one of the reasons he didn't get taken at the top of the draft.  Big mistake.  It's just one of many examples that could be shown.  Sure it works the other way too.  Like you or anyone knows.  At least you don't pretend to know everything like some others lately around these parts.  This place is ridiculous at this time of year.  But the point is that anyone relying on the quality of competition argument as their primary line of reasoning is way way off.

 

[Dcat]

46 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yeah, I hear this every cycle.  Sam supposed had "elite arm talent" and "elite accuracy" too.  I'm willing to bet you posted that claim yourself, Nico, at some point.  We're you also a huge Geno fanboi as well?  Pretty sure you were.  

 

 

actually, Darnold's accuracy was suspect at the time, although not as severely as Josh Allen's.  No one I remember said anything close to elite accuracy about Sam.  His size, strength and improvisational skills were touted.  

[Dcat]

26 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Hasn't Sam missed more games due to injury over the lasat 3 seasons than Wilson has? 

LMAO.

I wish someone loved me like ya'll love Sam. 

People just flat out ignore Darnold's missed time and that he has been hurt each year.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, Dcat said:

People just flat out ignore Darnold's missed time and that he has been hurt each year.

 

29 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Hasn't Sam missed more games due to injury over the lasat 3 seasons than Wilson has? 

LMAO.

I wish someone loved me like ya'll love Sam. 

I've come to support the Wilson @ 2 pick... but goddam I am nervous about putting the diminutive Mormon fella behind this offensive line. 

I think it's definitely fair to say the ginger blockhead likely can take a hit better than the Bayside Tiger. 

[slimjasi]

Just now, RedBeardedSavage said:

 

I've come to support the Wilson @ 2 pick... but goddam I am nervous about putting the diminutive Mormon fella behind this offensive line. 

I think it's definitely fair to say the ginger blockhead likely can take a hit better than the Bayside Tiger. 

While I am very concerned about Wilson's prior surgeries and potential durability issues (It's the biggest reason that I prefer Fields to Wilson), two of Sam's 3 injuries had nothing to do with the offensive line he played behind (i.e. mono  and Sam holding onto the ball forever instead of just throwing it to a wide open Lawrence Cager). Also, the offensive line on opening day won't be the same one we saw last year. We have plenty of draft picks to use before then. 

[Warfish]

47 minutes ago, Dcat said:

No one I remember said anything close to elite accuracy about Sam.

Then you weren't reading this Board.  Not pre-Draft, and certainly not during Sam's first years here. 

This kind of selective memory is just....yeah, sure D.

Since he has been so active in this thread, let me remind you of what a certain "QB1", back when he was still Nico, was saying about Sam Darnold and his Elite Accuracy:

Ten seconds of search found this. @Dcat

[nycdan]

15 minutes ago, Dcat said:

People just flat out ignore Darnold's missed time and that he has been hurt each year.

To be somewhat fair, you should take into account the quality of protection he had.  There were more than a few matador plays over the 3 years.

[Augustiniak]

11 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

While I am very concerned about Wilson's prior surgeries and potential durability issues (It's the biggest reason that I prefer Fields to Wilson), two of Sam's 3 injuries had nothing to do with the offensive line he played behind (i.e. mono  and Sam holding onto the ball forever instead of just throwing it to a wide open Lawrence Cager). Also, the offensive line on opening day won't be the same one we saw last year. We have plenty of draft picks to use before then. 

also, this new offense may finally allow the qb to roll out more and use his legs to buy time on shorter throws.  

[JetBlue]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Fair.

I get it, alot of fans simply fall in love with whomever puts on the colors, or is likely to put on the colors in the future.  They see nothing but great things in every new signing or draftee, and if they don't live up, those folks think the signings/draftees will still live up in the future.  It's a bit mindless, but I'm sure it's what they enjoy, and since sports are a pass-time, a hobby, everyone is entitled to enjoy it however they wish.  This is why so much of the board fell in love with Sam, an obviously flawed player to anyone paying attention, and were still calling him "elite" at this or that and the like as late as mid-2020-season.  Same way folks fell in love with equally flawed players, like Geno, Sanchez, and for more than will now admit 

I enjoy it by being a dedicated realist, an objective analyst Monday thru Saturday, and only on Sunday does my inner homer come out, for game time.  I enjoy being critical, being a doubter, being a cynic, telling you why it won't work out.  We have more than enough dreamers who will tell you it will work out.  We don't need more.  We need a few cynics like me and Bit around IMO.

No it is not an either or proposition.  It is more like some folks tend to FOCUS more on what can go wrong rather than what can go right.  It is just a different orientation.  You can call it realist if you want, I call it something else; negative.   There are plenty of cynics on this board, the difference is they can also see the positive and are not afraid to consider and EXPRESS those possibilities as well.   There is the concept of Pros and Cons.  It is seems to me you prefer to FOCUS on the cons more so than the pros.  But to each his own, if that works for you so be it. 

 

[JetFreak89]

1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

I saw Mahomes and Watson for what they were in 2017. In 2018 I said Darnold sucked, and Lamar Jackson was my favorite QB in that draft.

Just try to forget that I loved Christian Hackenberg in 2016.

I can't remember seeing previous posts so do you like Wilson or no? 

[Biggs]

20 hours ago, JETSY14 said:

Look at the competition.  Not quite NFL caliber defenses he is going up against

Go back and watch tape of every OU game that Baker and Murray played.  Guys were running wide open everywhere.  Mac Jones is going to go in the top 20 maybe top 5 or 10.  There were plays were there wasn't a defender in the same zip code.

[HighPitch]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

This is setting up to be such a jet-like disaster.  We give up on Sam after he has back to back horrible head coaches and no supporting cast for an injury prone egg whose claim to fame is making “beautiful throws” facing Butthole State

im pretty convinced that Max is bipolar. When he is up he posts as Maxman. When he in down and dark, its his real name Philc1

[JetBlue]

1 hour ago, Dcat said:

Yup.  I'm on neither side, because I can't find my Magic 8-Ball to make a firm decision like so many others here who already know how Wilson will perform in the NFL.   

Exactly, we can talk about who we like or dislike and hopefully make intelligent points instead devolving into stupid memes, ego driven rants, statements that make little or no sense, just so we can hope to be proven right in the end.  I read some of this posts and I truly am amazed at the lengths some folks will go because they have boxed themselves into a corner one way or the other regarding their opinion on prospect.   

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

No it is not an either or proposition.  It is more like some folks tend to FOCUS more on what can go wrong rather than what can go right.  It is just a different orientation. 

Homer vs. Hater, eh?

6 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

You can call it realist if you want, I call it something else; negative.

It's an attempt to be accurate, based on analysis and logic, and it's usually right.  Positive or negative is irrelevant.

6 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

There are plenty of cynics on this board, the difference is they can also see the positive and are not afraid to consider and EXPRESS those possibilities as well.

I've said repeatedly I could be wrong about Wilson.  And I generally admit when I get things wrong (Patrick Ramsey deserving a 2nd chance shot here in NY being the most famous longstanding joke, lol, but more recently a guy like Jackson in Baltimore, who I had severe doubts about as an NFL QB, and even Baker Mayfield (my unquestionable #1 guy that class) whose not lived up to my faith in him, albeit he's much better than Sam so far, amongst other examples).  I own my misjudgments and inaccurate evaluations.  Never run from being wrong. 

6 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

It is seems to me you prefer to FOCUS on the cons more so than the pros.  But to each his own, if that works for you so be it. 

I am rarely disappointed by the Jets, because of being a realist, and if they ever do get their sh*t together, I'll enjoy the high just as much as any homer will.  I call that a win/win.

I wonder, do all the guys who just blew hype smoke up our collective asses about Sam and were 100% wrong even care about how silly they look on a regular basis or how hard it is to take them seriously now?  Maybe not.  

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

im pretty convinced that Max is bipolar. When he is up he posts as Maxman. When he in down and dark, its his real name Philc1

 

[JetBlue]

19 hours ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

These are all well and good but can he handle the pressure of playing in NY and being under constant scrutiny. If not none of these arguments matter.

 

I don't think that will be a problem for him.  He comes across as rather unflappable.  I don't think it will faze him all that much.  I am much more interested in what he does on the field than in the press room.   I get the impression he will take a page out of Derek Jeter or Aaron Judges playbook and stay out of the spotlight for the most part. 

[JetBlue]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Homer vs. Hater, eh?

It's an attempt to be accurate, based on analysis and logic, and it's usually right.  Positive or negative is irrelevant.

I've said repeatedly I could be wrong about Wilson.  And I generally admit when I get things wrong (Patrick Ramsey deserving a 2nd chance shot here in NY being the most famous longstanding joke, lol, but more recently a guy like Jackson in Baltimore, who I had severe doubts about as an NFL QB, and even Baker Mayfield (my unquestionable #1 guy that class) whose not lived up to my faith in him, albeit he's much better than Sam so far, amongst other examples).  I own my misjudgments and inaccurate evaluations.  Never run from being wrong. 

I am rarely disappointed by the Jets, because of being a realist, and if they ever do get their sh*t together, I'll enjoy the high just as much as any homer will.  I call that a win/win.

I wonder, do all the guys who just blew hype smoke up our collective asses about Sam and were 100% wrong even care about how silly they look on a regular basis or how hard it is to take them seriously now?  Maybe not.  

Well if we were dealing with a serious subject like the environment or business I could understand but we are taking about sports here my friend.  This is supposed to be a diversionary pastime from the REAL WORLD. 

We deal with REALITY every day in our lives, when we come to message board, some of us come to ESCAPE.  We like to DREAM about the possibilities and guess what?  Even if the never come to fruition that is what fandom is to me.    I don't care if that sounds silly to you or anyone else, I'm not hear to entertain anyone. 

 Carry on.  

[Peace Frog]

16 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Go back and watch tape of every OU game that Baker and Murray played.  Guys were running wide open everywhere.  Mac Jones is going to go in the top 20 maybe top 5 or 10.  There were plays were there wasn't a defender in the same zip code.

Everything being reported today is he’s going 3 to SF.

Look at the WRs he was throwing to and the RBs he had to take any pressure off the passing game. 

He routinely had his pick of 2-3 wide open guys to throw to nearly every play. 

And Alabama was much more talented than every team they faced. By a fair margin. 
 

 

[Warfish]

10 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

I don't care if that sounds silly to you or anyone else, I'm not here to entertain anyone. 

 Carry on.  

Exactly my own sentiment.  +1

[Biggs]

11 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Everything being reported today is he’s going 3 to SF.

Look at the WRs he was throwing to and the RBs he had to take any pressure off the passing game. 

He routinely had his pick of 2-3 wide open guys to throw to nearly every play. 

And Alabama was much more talented than every team they faced. By a fair margin. 
 

 

He's going 2 to us or to somebody we trade with. 

[FTL Jet Fan]

28 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

I don't think that will be a problem for him.  He comes across as rather unflappable.  I don't think it will faze him all that much.  I am much more interested in what he does on the field than in the press room.   I get the impression he will take a page out of Derek Jeter or Aaron Judges playbook and stay out of the spotlight for the most part. 

If he is the pick I hope you are right. I can care less how he handles the media etc. I worry about how he can handle the spotlight and the pressure playing in NY and all that comes with it. It takes a certain kind of personality confidence/ arrogance to not let that noise get in your head as a QB. That is tall task for these young kids.

The psychological make up of these prospects is just as important as their physical abilities. 

[QB1]

Darnold certainly has/had elite accuracy. The fact that he/his confidence been destroyed by mono/Gase/Mac/covid/injuries doesn’t change that. You can be a great putter but once your confidence is gone you can’t make a 2 footer. 
 

We are all giving way too much attention to War “Patrick Ramsey” Fish

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

He's going 2 to us or to somebody we trade with. 

No I meant Mac Jones is going 3rd to SF. 

We’re locked into Wilson. 

I was agreeing with your wide open point. Mac Jones was throwing or handing off to 4 first rounders. All pretty much always wide open. 

[JETSY14]

3 hours ago, Biggs said:

Go back and watch tape of every OU game that Baker and Murray played.  Guys were running wide open everywhere.  Mac Jones is going to go in the top 20 maybe top 5 or 10.  There were plays were there wasn't a defender in the same zip code.

Mac Jones is terrible.  All he does is stare down his reciever.  He's lucky he has top wide recievers  that  make big plays.

[Dcat]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Then you weren't reading this Board.  Not pre-Draft, and certainly not during Sam's first years here. 

This kind of selective memory is just....yeah, sure D.

Since he has been so active in this thread, let me remind you of what a certain "QB1", back when he was still Nico, was saying about Sam Darnold and his Elite Accuracy:

Ten seconds of search found this. @Dcat

My recollection on that QB class accuracy evaluations:

#1 Mayfield
#2 Rosen
#3 Darnold
#4 Allen (in the 57-58% range IIRC significantly below the other three)

honestly don't remember Lamar Jackson in the comparison.  

But I'll give you this..  Walter Football said that Darnold was very accurate when he was on the run...  LOL

[slimjasi]

14 minutes ago, Dcat said:

My recollection on that QB class accuracy evaluations:

#1 Mayfield
#2 Rosen
#3 Darnold
#4 Allen (in the 57-58% range IIRC significantly below the other three)

honestly don't remember Lamar Jackson in the comparison.  

But I'll give you this..  Walter Football said that Darnold was very accurate when he was on the run...  LOL

And it's not as if it matters what loons on JN say about a guy's accuracy anyway. 

[Dcat]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

And it's not as if it matters what loons on JN say about a guy's accuracy anyway. 

Yeah...I wasn't referring to this message board... more so the regular NFL draft pundits  the Bucky brooks, etc.  Who cares what this board says leading up to the Jets draft?  Better insight reading the draft forum months ago. That's where you find the more accurate info from this board.   Now everything seems media driven and based 100% on emotion.

[HamBilly]

It feels as if Wilson is escaping criticism because nobody wants to be wrong about the next Mahomes, Allen or Herbert. This is not meant to be an attack on Zach Wilson but why is everyone locking him as the Jets pick? 

Mahomes - If people thought he was going to be this good, he wouldn't have lasted until the teens in the 2017 draft. 3rd QB taken in his draft because may believe his offense wouldn't translate in the NFL.

Allen - Many thought he was a surefire bust. Everyone saw him as just measurable and nothing else. Many viewed him as the 4th or 5th best QB in his draft class.

Herbert - Similar to Allen, people saw measurables in a gimmicky system. Was widely regarded as the 3rd best QB in his draft class.

 

There are several QBs in this draft with 1st round talent and a unique skillset. Having a athletic big arm QB isn't the only way to win in the NFL. Just wish there were more debates on this forum honestly evaluating all the top prospects instead of locking in on Wilson.

 

[Jetty]

I feel that this kid is going to be a bust. I dont know why I just do.

I truly hope Carolina trades the farm for the #2 pick.