Injured draft picks...GM to blame?

[Barry McCockinner]

3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

So if the jets get 3 wins each of the next 3 years because guys are hurt then we still have a great gm?

It doesn't matter who's fault it is or what kind of bad luck you have if you get results you and your team is a success, if you do not you are out on your ear.

What kind of strawman bs is this? I addressed the question from the op and never said anything about the GM being great or even good. It's not the fault of the GM if players get injured. 

[MehlFreeman]

8 minutes ago, Dcat said:

Milliner was unique with his three surgeries IIRC.  Idzik desperate to replace Revis totally disregarded it. There's not much out there that's comparably bad.

Didn't he have pins in his leg too? Not sure

[Dcat]

Just now, MehlFreeman said:

Didn't he have pins in his leg too? Not sure

2 of my favorite Jets in your screen name.  #56 injuries cut career down. 

[Darnold's Forehead]

8 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

So if the jets get 3 wins each of the next 3 years because guys are hurt then we still have a great gm?

It doesn't matter who's fault it is or what kind of bad luck you have if you get results you and your team is a success, if you do not you are out on your ear.

Does the GM deserve blame if the team sucks?  No sh**.  That's not the question tho.

JD's had 2 drafts.  Team sucks, but injuries are the biggest reason our 2 draft classes aren't "good" so far, not because he's drafting bums (barring Zuniga).

[BurntDice]

1 hour ago, freestater said:

Re: Becton, his weight puts him in an intrinsically susceptible to injury due to the strain on his body at his size. To believe that it wouldn't hold him back in the pros is to bet against the vast majority. With a proven stalwart choice as an option at that same pick, who has gone on to play a lot more games, its a horrible pick. Its a pick that screams "I'm smarter than everybody else", great when it works out, its a red flag when it doesn’t. 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/weight-and-injuries
 

 Regarding becton here’s a study that you and others may find interesting. The increase in injuries based on heavier OL is a completely false narrative created by the public and media. 

[Snell41]

Ravens have more players on IR
the GMs job is to have depth 

That Part I won’t pin on Douglas. The mid late rounds of the draft are where you develop your depth. We have been so putrid at that for so long there’s just nothing in the cupboard.


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[Beerfish]

8 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

What kind of strawman bs is this? I addressed the question from the op and never said anything about the GM being great or even good. It's not the fault of the GM if players get injured. 

And as I said in my very first post in this thread, it doesn't matter, it is a totally meaningless question.

Of course it is not his fault.  No reasonable person would say it is his fault he is not on the field.

Injuries are totally unpredictable and whether a guy had injuries in college or not has no bearing after he gets to the pros.

The only reason to make such a thread is to try and find excuses for non performance.

Is it the coaches fault if his players get hurt?

Is it the players fault if he gets hurt?

 

[Beerfish]

4 minutes ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

Does the GM deserve blame if the team sucks?  No sh**.  That's not the question tho.

JD's had 2 drafts.  Team sucks, but injuries are the biggest reason our 2 draft classes aren't "good" so far, not because he's drafting bums (barring Zuniga).

You just said two opposite things.

It is the gms fault if the team sucks'

It is not the gms fault the sucks because his players are hurt.

Which is it?

[Hex]

2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

And as I said in my very first post in this thread, it doesn't matter, it is a totally meaningless question.

Of course it is not his fault.  No reasonable person would say it is his fault he is not on the field.

Injuries are totally unpredictable and whether a guy had injuries in college or not has no bearing after he gets to the pros.

The only reason to make such a thread is to try and find excuses for non performance.

Is it the coaches fault if his players get hurt?

Is it the players fault if he gets hurt?

 

Do we need to assign a fault?

[Barry McCockinner]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

And as I said in my very first post in this thread, it doesn't matter, it is a totally meaningless question.

Of course it is not his fault.  No reasonable person would say it is his fault he is not on the field.

Injuries are totally unpredictable and whether a guy had injuries in college or not has no bearing after he gets to the pros.

The only reason to make such a thread is to try and find excuses for non performance.

Is it the coaches fault if his players get hurt?

Is it the players fault if he gets hurt?

 

People blame the GM for injured players all the time on here when they point at injured players from the draft class as failures. I'm glad we agree it's stupid.

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, AFJF said:

Are you asking me to declare players as being good or bad picks after 6 NFL games?

 

 

Feel totally free to take his 1st draft only. 

[Irish Jet]

Never forget. Douglas is a f*cking fraud.

[Beerfish]

2 minutes ago, Hex said:

Do we need to assign a fault?

No one is at fault.

That does not change the fact that you draft good players who contribute or you don;t.  So far Douglas has been a disappointment.  I have high hopes for a number of his picks who have not done much so far but sooner or later he needs to start hitting on guys that really help this team.

 

[Anthony Jet]

Speaking of Becton, is he ever gonna play again?

[BurntDice]

9 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Never forget. Douglas is a f*cking fraud.

This is so stupid wirfs is playing RT for a QB who’s an expert at getting the ball out extremely fast. Aim your hatred somewhere that you can actually justify. 

[RSJ]

I think the problem is the draft is a bit of a crapshoot. Like others have already said the GM needs to hedge his bets with free agents to build depth. The years the Jets were good, every rookie had a vet to compete with. This worked out on the OL with Fant, Becton and Moses. It doesnt seem like the Jets did this across the roster.


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[Matt39]

14 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

This is so stupid wirfs is playing RT for a QB who’s an expert at getting the ball out extremely fast. Aim your hatred somewhere that you can actually justify. 

Becton stinks. Wirfs is good. It's justified.

[BigRy56]

I wouldn’t say it’s Joe Douglas’ fault, but ultimately it falls back on him. It takes a little luck to be good 

[bgivs21]

49 minutes ago, freestater said:

That's fair, but its also fair to query; how many games has Wirfs missed?

How many games has Wirfs played at LT?

[RSJ]

I am a little confused as to why we are talking about Becton vs Wirfs. Our tackle position seems fine on both sides. What bothers me is we have no TE, RB. Safeties, CB, OG, and not sure if I am leaving anything else out but I probably am.


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[BurntDice]

9 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Becton stinks. Wirfs is good. It's justified.

Fun fact did you know it’s much easier to play RT vs LT because the teams #1 edge is usually against the LT. it’s also easier to play with a HOF qb instead of a rookie and or bad qb? They need to hold their blocks for much longer in these scenarios. I have a strong feeling speaking actual football will be lost on you however 

[BurntDice]

5 minutes ago, RSJ said:

I am a little confused as to why we are talking about Becton vs Wirfs. Our tackle position seems fine on both sides. What bothers me is we have no TE, RB. Safeties, CB, OG, and not sure if I am leaving anything else out but I probably am.


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People are miserable and need something to bitch about 

[doitny]

the 2020 draft guys all got injured. the 2021 guys (knocks on wood} have not for the most part. no doubt the covid restrictions hurt us in 2020. only time will tell but the 2021 vlass is at least on the field and we should know much more by seasons end.

i found this

The draft has developed into a massive celebration that is televised live from a different city each year, marking the end of months of strenuous workouts, interviews, travel, medical exams and more for pro prospects and NFL teams alike. Obviously, this year's event will be dramatically different, not only in terms of how it's conducted, but also in the ways teams build their draft boards, as some of the tools that have become ingrained in the process are not available to them this time around. Although NFL decision-makers are undoubtedly facing unique challenges as they attempt to grade prospects and decide who would best help their teams, there's no question in my mind that they can still put together quality draft hauls with "incomplete" information.

teams that rely heavily on their coaches to have a major impact on their draft boards based on combine and spring workouts could be at a disadvantage because they simply don't have the same knowledge of players that the area scouts possess.

 

Physicals: With NFL-related physicals being discontinued as of last week, it appears a number of prospects will be drafted without the typical medical sign-off that teams covet. A majority of prospects already have "passed" physicals from the combine, but players that would return for a combine re-check in a normal year probably won't be able to get them prior to this year's draft.

Even when you have access to give players physicals, it's not uncommon to see teams differ in their evaluations. For example, I know Curtis Martin was left off some draft boards because of his injury history, but New England took him in the third round (74th overall). He ended up having a Hall-of-Fame career.

Team trainers and doctors, who will likely be calling college medical personnel for information, will guide you in this area. A good barometer is missed games. Once again, a scout's info from school visits -- and their interaction with coaches and the training staff -- will be critical to answering questions like: Does the player regularly miss practice? Does he have any lingering injuries? How diligent was he about seeking treatment and taking care of his body?

That said, it's very hard to get medical information from some colleges. This could hurt a prospect's draft ranking if a team feels like it just can't get a sufficient enough read on the player's overall health.

 

there is more about the whole draft if you want to read it. i know if you hate JD you dont want to hear this but we might have to look past 2020. yeah i know other teams got players but every GM evaluates players differently. 

 How NFL teams can still have an effective draft in 2020

[Irish Jet]

7 minutes ago, BurntDice said:

Fun fact did you know it’s much easier to play RT vs LT because the teams #1 edge is usually against the LT. it’s also easier to play with a HOF qb instead of a rookie and or bad qb? They need to hold their blocks for much longer in these scenarios. I have a strong feeling speaking actual football will be lost on you however 

Such nonsense.

[Darnold's Forehead]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

You just said two opposite things.

It is the gms fault if the team sucks'

It is not the gms fault the sucks because his players are hurt.

Which is it?

Whether this team sucks or not is irrelevant.  It was not the point of this thread.  49ers were decimated last year, does that make Lynch a bad gm?  Was Bosa a bad pick?

JD has nothing to show obviously, but this team shouldn't be completely built on the past TWO drafts.  That's asking way too much.

[dcJet]

I felt terrible for Devin Smith.  He got broken ribs and a punctured lung in only his 2nd preseason practice.  Came back from that only to tear his ACL.  Works his way back again only to tear the ACL again in the same knee.  Sad.  Macc's first draft, 2nd rounder.

Great college player with no injury history.

[PLO]

8 hours ago, freestater said:

Re: Becton, his weight puts him in an intrinsically susceptible to injury due to the strain on his body at his size. To believe that it wouldn't hold him back in the pros is to bet against the vast majority. With a proven stalwart choice as an option at that same pick, who has gone on to play a lot more games, its a horrible pick. Its a pick that screams "I'm smarter than everybody else", great when it works out, its a red flag when it doesn’t. 

Becton's last injury was nothing to with his weight, and everything to do with mediocre players around him on that O line. Getting rolled from the side/behind on the leg like that was all due to other O lineman not being able to stop penetration from opposing D lineman. 

[Biggs]

They system we run relies on chop blocks.  It might be self inflicted and a little retaliation.   SF has had a history of terrible injuries with the same system.   

[AFJF]

6 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Feel totally free to take his 1st draft only. 

Will do, but I'd still say less than a season and a half is premature.

Becton can play at an above average to elite level.  If nobody rolls up on him, there's no reason to believe he's not still on the field today.

Denzel Mims, no matter how Saleh/LaFleur feel about him, can absolutely play.  At worst he'll be a no. 2 WR one day and possibly a 1.

Ashtyn Davis, one of my least favorite picks in the draft has only played 13 games due to injury and I honestly haven't seen enough to say  he can be a starter but he looks to be at least a backup level player.

Zuniga: Wasted pick

Perine: Worst possible fit for the new OC.  Didn't like the pick and not sure why he's on the roster right now.  Likely a RB2 or 3 one day but not here.

James Morgan: Ugh

Cam Clark: One of my favorite picks in the class and expected him to take GVR's job this year.  IR'd for the year with back injury.  Who knows if he ever plays again?

Bryce Hall: Legit starting CB

Mann: Punter

So insanely and irrationally early grade?

Found starting level LT, WR, CB, P

Found backup level S

Impossible to grade Clark

So it's about an average class for a good GM (3 starters, 1 backup) out of 9 picks).  Now if Clark comes back next year and hits his full potential, it's 4 starters an 1 backup which is a very good haul as the better GM's tend to hit on just a hair over 50% of their picks.

Wet the bed on Zuniga, Perine and Morgan

 

And while lots of this year's class can't get/stay on the field, I have seen enough to say I'm very comfortable with the AVT, Moore and both Michael Carter picks.

Edited October 27, 2021 by AFJF

[PS17]

10 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

Why didn't the Bengals resign Lawson who they drafted??

 He was hurt alot......hmmmmm

They chose to sign Hendrickson who I think leads the NFL with something like 35 pressures.

[jgb]

10 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

Why didn't the Bengals resign Lawson who they drafted??

 He was hurt alot......hmmmmm

Took a lot of butt fumbles for my expressed skepticism around Lawson. The fact that his best year was when lined up opposite all-world Geno Atkins and before tearing his Achilles was a heckuva reason to temper expectations.

[Jet Nut]

13 hours ago, Beerfish said:

It doesn't matter if it is his fault or not.  You draft successful players or you do not.

Thats true.

Until you stretch it to players who were never hurt in college getting injured like other draft picks.  

[Jet Nut]

11 hours ago, Beerfish said:

You just said two opposite things.

It is the gms fault if the team sucks'

It is not the gms fault the sucks because his players are hurt.

Which is it?

I think the. answer is obvious, you just keep stepping over it.

[Jet Nut]

13 hours ago, freestater said:

Re: Becton, his weight puts him in an intrinsically susceptible to injury due to the strain on his body at his size. To believe that it wouldn't hold him back in the pros is to bet against the vast majority. With a proven stalwart choice as an option at that same pick, who has gone on to play a lot more games, its a horrible pick. Its a pick that screams "I'm smarter than everybody else", great when it works out, its a red flag when it doesn’t. 

When you can tell me how someone rolling up on your knee and dislocates your knee cap is weight related this would be an actual complaint stretched out to "I'm smarter than everybody else" and his a red flag on any level 

 

[freestater]

14 hours ago, AFJF said:

None, but this doesn't mean it was easier to predict which guy would or would not have a teammate roll up on them.

You can keep pretending thats all it about if you like. I won't be joining you. Its about not being able to keep up with an edge, not being prepared for camp, missing time last year then this year, then he'll have to get up to speed with with an o-line apparently swimming with this new offense. The other guy who was there has been a stud. You can go on about how Wirfs is an RT too, if you like. I also won't be pretending we didn't need one of those at the time.