Weigh In On D'Brick D'Bate

[TuscanyTile2]

Read Sperm and Bitonti's arguments on D'Brick and vote for who won.

 

http://forums.jetnation.com/topic/125619-mitchell-schwartz-fa-rtot/

[Bocajetfan]

Agree with both at 14 mil Brick is a liability at 8 to 9 mil Bick has value. My hope is he stays and Jets are not forced to reach in the draft or over pay a lesser talented free agent. Most free agents are over paid just the nature of the beast.

[sourceworx]

Ask him to take a pay cut. If he agrees, you keep him. If not, let him go. He's not worth what they're paying him right now. 

[Larz]

considering sperm couldn't come up with one replacement to support his position, he got woodshedded imho

[j4jets]

Agree with both at 14 mil Brick is a liability at 8 to 9 mil Bick has value. My hope is he stays and Jets are not forced to reach in the draft or over pay a lesser talented free agent. Most free agents are over paid just the nature of the beast.

Problem is, B'rick isnt making $14mil. He's making like $10.5 mil. Rest is prorated bonus pushed back mostly from all his yearly restructures. To account for 9 mil in cap, he'd have to accept a salary of about $3.5 mil. He's not playing for that at all.

[BroadwayJets]

Fitz was getting mauled every time he held the ball for more than 2 seconds from the tackles. The pocket would squish on him, it was a problem the whole year from both OTs. Fitz is not a tall guy, and this hampered his ability to see and make accurate throws. 

Regardless of who the replacement for brick is, he's not worth $14 million anymore. Sperm is right, and he wasn't exactly advocating for a specific replacement because who the hell knows who it'll be (if I understood correctly). Either restructure without any new money or cut him, plain and simple. Someone will have to step up, and if this is the road Mac chooses to dwell down, he'll make a move corresponding to whatever move he makes regarding brick. 

Look at the year Oher had for the Panthers, new players emerge every year in this league. Hopefully Mac chooses the right one because he's undoubtedly going to address brick's contract situation this offseason. Brick and Breno are not Maccagnan's guys, and they both stink. It's not that outlandish to believe he could address both OT positions this offseason. 

[jetscrazey]

I'll take Brick for $7-8 million, not the insane $14.1 million in his current deal.  There's tackles out there who can give us the same so-so production we got from Brick the past couple of seasons.

[SenorGato]

Ask him to take a pay cut. 

I vote the that the NFL be annihilated. 

[Thor99]

I won, by refusing to post in that thread. 

[CanadaSteve]

D'Brick is not as bad as everyone is making him out to be....that said, that $14 million contract is tough to swallow.  IF one of the top three OT's happen to fall to us, they may have to jump at it, and hope there is some OLB talent left in the 2nd/3rd round.  I would not be surprised to see the Jets moving down in the draft to try and recoup an extra pick or two.

The big question is, IF they move Mo, where in the first round would they be picking, and IF it was high enough, do they take a flyer on the extra first round pick to take another QB?

[Sperm Edwards]

Problem is, B'rick isnt making $14mil. He's making like $10.5 mil. Rest is prorated bonus pushed back mostly from all his yearly restructures. To account for 9 mil in cap, he'd have to accept a salary of about $3.5 mil. He's not playing for that at all.

B-I-N-G-O

[Sperm Edwards]

considering sperm couldn't come up with one replacement to support his position, he got woodshedded imho

First of all, this is simply false. Second, we don't right know everyone that will be available (someone scheduled to be available will be signed, someone scheduled to be on a roster may be released).

But if you want to deal in hypotheticals, and only an 8-figure left tackle will make you happy (which is clearly the case), then sign Cordy Glenn. His run blocking isn't top tier, but it's at least as good as Ferguson's, and his pass blocking is night and day better.

Your reasoning in the above post is pointless anyway since it's obvious you'll mock any name that isn't a pro bowler or nearly a pro bowler anyway, in the way 99% of the people here laughed off the Bills signing Incognito because he wasn't a big name anymore (other than for off-field reasons). 

Every player in the league is not a downgrade from Ferguson. Technically, in 2015, Ferguson would have been a downgrade for all but a few starting tackles in the NFL and isn't versatile or powerful enough to flip to the other side as his skills have declined.

[bitonti]

 IF one of the top three OT's happen to fall to us, they may have to jump at it, and hope there is some OLB talent left in the 2nd/3rd round. 

 there are 2 legit LT in this draft Tunsil and Stanley. Both should be gone by the 11th pick. 

The 3rd OT is either Conklin or Decker and both most likely start their careers in the NFL at RT. Conklin is the better pass protector and probably can transfer over to LT in a couple years, Decker is probably a career RT.

If they take a tackle at 1.20 it's a Breno replacement in 2016 and hopefully a Brick upgrade but not in year 1.  Either way the team needs Brick, unless they are trading up for a premium player. 

 

and on a more general note the Jets went BPA last year when they took Williams when they already had Mo and Sheldon. A pick of a RT possibly LT at 1.20 would probably not be BPA. It would be a need pick and this administration has proven they won't pick for need in rd 1. 

***

as for the voting no one wins these debates what happens is one person is right and the other person is wrong but the verdict isn't rendered months if not years after the fact and no one really remembers who said what.  Once upon a time I had a debate with someone saying that Ricky Williams was a loser and a bust. That poster was gleeful when Ricky had a career year with 40 TD or whatever. But eventually I was proven right. Only problem was it was years after the debate and there was no one who remembered. I can't even remember who I was debating with.  

 

[section314]

 there are 2 legit LT in this draft Tunsil and Stanley. Both should be gone by the 11th pick. 

The 3rd OT is either Conklin or Decker and both most likely start their careers in the NFL at RT. Conklin is the better pass protector and probably can transfer over to LT in a couple years, Decker is probably a career RT.

If they take a tackle at 1.20 it's a Breno replacement in 2016 and hopefully a Brick upgrade but not in year 1.  Either way the team needs Brick, unless they are trading up for a premium player. 

***

as for the voting no one wins these debates what happens is one person is right and the other person is wrong but the verdict isn't rendered months if not years after the fact and no one really remembers who said what.  Once upon a time I had a debate with someone saying that Ricky Williams was a loser and a bust. That poster was gleeful when Ricky had a career year with 40 TD or whatever. But eventually I was proven right. Only problem was it was years after the debate and there was no one who remembered. I can't even remember who I was debating with.  

 

Was it Mike Ditka?    On a side note, the one guy I think is good on Pats O-Line is Shaq Mason. Would have liked him in Green/White.

[chirorob]

Problem is, B'rick isnt making $14mil. He's making like $10.5 mil. Rest is prorated bonus pushed back mostly from all his yearly restructures. To account for 9 mil in cap, he'd have to accept a salary of about $3.5 mil. He's not playing for that at all.

I've said this myself.   You can't look at the cap charge, that's not what he's making.  Just like Drew Brees isn't making 30 million, a lot of that is $$ pushed back.

Brick is decent, and never hurt.  WHO are you going to put back there that is better?  Even if you draft a LT in the 1st, is it a lock that he'll be ready to go day 1?  I'd say keep Brick another year, and draft some O Linemen.  Our line is getting to be a problem.   Average, and 2 of the 3 best players are older. 

[Beerfish]

If they make the kind of value fa moves they made this year with Carpenter that is a big help.  Oline is the toughest position to have any idea about prospects making progress.  I wish I knew if any of our developmental guys really are making progress or if the team is blowing smoke about them.  Guys like Dozier and Harrision and such.

[jetrider]

The last two times the Jets had hope Brick happened:

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

Here's how we make our o-line the most dominant in the NFL:

1.  Cut Breno.

2.  Sign RT Bobby Massie. 

3.  Restructure Brick's contract so that he can be guaranteed starter 1 more year, then cut following 2016.

4.  Draft Ohio State OT Taylor Decker in Round 1, and groom him as our LT of the future.  He is the perfect OT for a zone-blocking scheme, especially for a team that likes to run the ball, has the long arms to handle most pass rushers, and is very durable.

[bitonti]

Here's how we make our o-line the most dominant in the NFL:

1.  Cut Breno.

2.  Sign RT Bobby Massie. 

3.  Restructure Brick's contract so that he can be guaranteed starter 1 more year, then cut following 2016.

4.  Draft Ohio State OT Taylor Decker in Round 1, and groom him as our LT of the future.  He is the perfect OT for a zone-blocking scheme, especially for a team that likes to run the ball, has the long arms to handle most pass rushers, and is very durable.

this is a reasonable approach my only concern is that drafting Decker in rd 1 is a need pick. This front office would rather go into the draft looking for the best available player in rd1 than drafting for need. It's also questionable if Decker has the feet for LT. Not impossible just not a sure thing. 

[greenwichjetfan]

Well, this is a fun little thread title!

[peebag]

Here's how we make our o-line the most dominant in the NFL:

1.  Cut Breno.

2.  Sign RT Bobby Massie. 

3.  Restructure Brick's contract so that he can be guaranteed starter 1 more year, then cut following 2016.

4.  Draft Ohio State OT Taylor Decker in Round 1, and groom him as our LT of the future.  He is the perfect OT for a zone-blocking scheme, especially for a team that likes to run the ball, has the long arms to handle most pass rushers, and is very durable.

Anything that gets rid of Breno, I'm all on board!

[Jetsfan80]

this is a reasonable approach my only concern is that drafting Decker in rd 1 is a need pick. This front office would rather go into the draft looking for the best available player in rd1 than drafting for need. It's also questionable if Decker has the feet for LT. Not impossible just not a sure thing. 

I think this would be a situation where need aligns with BPA. 

[bitonti]

I think this would be a situation where need aligns with BPA. 

if the board falls that way sure, but let's say there's a higher rated edge rusher on the board. The Jets would have to take the OT cause they are down a starter. Unless they can cut Breno after the draft? 

[dbatesman]

As JN's own resident dbates man, I give this debate a solid B+.

[Sperm Edwards]

Here's how we make our o-line the most dominant in the NFL:

1.  Cut Breno.

2.  Sign RT Bobby Massie. 

3.  Restructure Brick's contract so that he can be guaranteed starter 1 more year, then cut following 2016.

4.  Draft Ohio State OT Taylor Decker in Round 1, and groom him as our LT of the future.  He is the perfect OT for a zone-blocking scheme, especially for a team that likes to run the ball, has the long arms to handle most pass rushers, and is very durable.

That isn't a restructuring. It's a direct pay cut you seek. As mentioned by someone else earlier, he would need to take a $5M pay cut to have any meaning for the team. The problem with that is his 2016 compensation would be down to less than he could get as a FA, on name recognition alone, so he wouldn't take it. 

The only other way you could "restructure" him is to convert 2016 salary to even more signing bonus (in an effort to guarantee his job for 2016). That doesn't help the Jets, though. They're still paying the same money to the same player. They can push 2016 money to 2017 with any number of players they're 100% positive they want on the team past 2016. In other words, it isn't helpful. 

If they don't restructure him, they still pay him the same amount that you're outlining, and they can still cut him in April after the draft if they do draft a LT in round 1. Restructuring means we're stuck with him even after drafting his replacement.

If they take a LT prospect in round 1, then he should be starting right away at LT. Fitz doesn't stand there holding the ball like a statue so there's no reason at all to keep Ferguson at that elite $ AND draft a LT in round 1.

[jason423]

I thik both guys are right about the difficulties with the move. That said I cant justify paying Fergsuon $10M next year at a $14M cap charge. He has leverage in that the Jets have no viable solution to replace him, but if Im the Jets I have to take the risk and cut him and work from there. Just because you cut Ferguson it doesnt meant you cant bring him back. It just means you feel strong in your offer to him and that he wont find a better one elsewhere. If they cut him his cap would be $5M dead, a savings of $9M. When he doesnt find a home you offer him $4M-$5M you get your $4-5M cap savings and all future prorated money off the books for the future. But I think the Jets are going to have to make him test the market to agree to a deal that makes sense.

If they guess wrong and he finds a home then you go to the Donald Penns of the world or offer a Ryan Clady type whose goig too get cut, the incentive filled package. You cant get emotional over the name of the player. This is a big reason why a team like NE is always so good. They would have traded a guy like Ferguson two years ago for a draft pick. 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

I thik both guys are right about the difficulties with the move. That said I cant justify paying Fergsuon $10M next year at a $14M cap charge. He has leverage in that the Jets have no viable solution to replace him, but if Im the Jets I have to take the risk and cut him and work from there. Just because you cut Ferguson it doesnt meant you cant bring him back. It just means you feel strong in your offer to him and that he wont find a better one elsewhere. If they cut him his cap would be $5M dead, a savings of $9M. When he doesnt find a home you offer him $4M-$5M you get your $4-5M cap savings and all future prorated money off the books for the future. But I think the Jets are going to have to make him test the market to agree to a deal that makes sense.

If they guess wrong and he finds a home then you go to the Donald Penns of the world or offer a Ryan Clady type whose goig too get cut, the incentive filled package. You cant get emotional over the name of the player. This is a big reason why a team like NE is always so good. They would have traded a guy like Ferguson two years ago for a draft pick. 

 

This is all I'm saying. If Ferguson's cap number was way lower then they can keep him while drafting his replacement. At this number, with the other holes they have, they can't keep him; it's preposterous.

I think unless they go with your idea, which I'd also be fine with, they have to go with a different veteran. But they can't keep him and pay him some $2M in spring bonuses before knowing what they could get in the draft. Depending on what veteran they add will also tailor who gets picked among 5 equally-rated prospects (when its our turn) 's one of them is projected to LT. Or if a LT is just sitting there within reach then maybe work a trade to grab him. 

Ferguson was bad despite tremendous advantages this past season. From last preseason, this was supposed to be his rebound or get cut season, and he certainly didn't rebound.

There are other names. One of them (maybe more) will turn out to be solid, just like Incognito and others turned out to be for other teams despite the snickering. Whether it's Clady or another coming back from a 2015 injury, or a Jake Long who was allowed to be 2nd string all season to heal (I have no idea what he played like in practices for Atlanta), or someone else. Then you don't stop there. You add that player (or two of them if one or more is also versatile enough to play RT then the loser can take Breno's spot), AND address the position in the draft. The proposed argument has come down to keep and extend Ferguson if we can't sign a top 5 tackle right away.

How many playoff teams got there behind an elite LT? Not Carolina, not Denver, not New England, not Pittsburgh, not Seattle... The notion that Ferguson eating up all that cap space is going to be what determines the Jets contending or not contending is not realistic. What they pay to Ferguson they can't pay to someone at another position, so you can't just fall in love with a vastly overpaid and declining player today because of what he once was for us. I know you know that.

The other problem is that as long as he's here making that kind of coin, no one else will be given a serious chance. It's not like other positions where younger/backup guys can get rotated in more and more if they show something in practices/games. 

[jamesr]

If you look at the current contract / cap hit numbers, it looks to me like this was the part that was intentionally left as a trigger to renegotiate.

This year (just finished) - $11.7m cap hit, $9.7m dead money if cut. No chance to move on

Next year - $14.1m cap hit, $9m cap savings if cut. Perfect time to cut / renegotiate - if needed. And given the situation, it's needed

Both sides will have been well aware of this, and expecting it / planning for it. And there's a $1m roster bonus in there which will likely be the trigger / timeline setter.

Personally I see an outright cut as highly unlikely; the most likely route is to rework the deal so that the cap hit is lowered but there's some sort of incentive to accept it. I don't really care to speculate on the details of that, I just see it as the most likely route. But overall we have to get cheaper on our O Line - we currently spend more on the line than any other NFL team. But I don't reckon any of this will happen "big bang" style, more a slow and gradual turnover. Brick will be here in 2016, but what his contract is like, and what we can do elsewhere as a result, remains to be seen.

[TuscanyTile2]

Fwiw, this has been one of the best debates I've seen on JN.

[Sperm Edwards]

If you look at the current contract / cap hit numbers, it looks to me like this was the part that was intentionally left as a trigger to renegotiate.

This year (just finished) - $11.7m cap hit, $9.7m dead money if cut. No chance to move on

Next year - $14.1m cap hit, $9m cap savings if cut. Perfect time to cut / renegotiate - if needed. And given the situation, it's needed

Both sides will have been well aware of this, and expecting it / planning for it. And there's a $1m roster bonus in there which will likely be the trigger / timeline setter.

Personally I see an outright cut as highly unlikely; the most likely route is to rework the deal so that the cap hit is lowered but there's some sort of incentive to accept it. I don't really care to speculate on the details of that, I just see it as the most likely route. But overall we have to get cheaper on our O Line - we currently spend more on the line than any other NFL team. But I don't reckon any of this will happen "big bang" style, more a slow and gradual turnover. Brick will be here in 2016, but what his contract is like, and what we can do elsewhere as a result, remains to be seen.

I don't care if we get massively cheaper on the OL, but the idea that every player across the line has to originate from a higher draft pick or expensive veteran flies in the face of what other successful teams have done. Use higher picks and top dollar on the OL and you aren't using them elsewhere. It's why I'm not going to cry if they do a tag & trade with Mo. Not because I don't want him here; who the hell would want him off the team? It's that, after the team made 2 more high first round investments in 2 players that play his position, you can't also re-sign him for QB money. I mean you can, but it will cost the team someplace else where they could have improved more visibly/dramatically than Mo's upgrade over 2 younger (and quite possibly more talented, and in time better) players.

You just can't keep everyone, and this is the situation with Brick IMO. If he was making $5M (and carried a $9M cap hit) then it's easier to keep him and draft his future replacement.

The reality is, though, left tackles don't get tried out until they get tried out. You draft a future LT prospect and put him at RT or guard for a year, that still doesn't tell you he can play LT.  At some point you just have to move on and take your chances, because the economics of a salary cap say you can't pay a meh player like he's elite.

Totally agree with you on last season. I would have been ok moving on then, but the dead space made it difficult. That, and we had so many other holes to fill outside of LT, had plenty of cap space to burn through, and there was some sentiment that his play would re-elevate with the upgrade to Carpenter at LG and with the coaching changes. Except it didn't happen. In fact, he got even worse. Again.

No matter how it plays out, it will be interesting to see how Maccagnan handles it. 

[SenorGato]

I lean towards agreeing with SE. Cutting D'Brick just might be the wise move to make. 

[bitonti]

If they guess wrong and he finds a home then you go to the Donald Penns of the world or offer a Ryan Clady type whose goig too get cut, the incentive filled package.

Donald Penn won't make it out of Oakland. Ryan Clady will likely be cut but not until after June 1. 

The floor on Cordy Glenn is reportedly 10 million per year. 

I just don't see many legitimate options to replace Brick in 2016. If the team wanted to replace him they should have been working on it for a few years already. 

If they do cut Brick they almost have to draft a tackle and it's questionable if there will even be a LT at 1.20. 

[Klecko73isGod]

Didn't read the comments. Voted for Sperm Edwards. Cause "Bowling ball with butcher knives." 

"D'Brick D'Bate" - I see what you did there. Funny.

[SenorGato]

Jason is also into cutting D'Brick? Get it done! It makes an insane amount of sense for the Jets if they want to be able to do anything in FA this winter.

[Nick Blitz]

In for the mass d'bate...