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GVR was the best this GM could do

Guilhermezmc

By Guilhermezmc
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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

Posted
Posted

PFF is hardly the end-all of performance discussions, but how often is someone graded this lowly but in reality they're playing really well (or even acceptably)? 

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/jets_disaster_against_patriots_highlights_issues/s1_16880_36260555

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Quincy Williams is a similar story: PFF overall is a 40.3, his run defense grades at 36.5, and his coverage grades at 49.1.

 

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Blake Cashman, who I believe has been a total whiff of a draft pick, currently has a PFF grade of 29.1 overall. His run defense is a 54.2, and his coverage ability is a 29.4

 

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TheNuuFaaolaExperience

TheNuuFaaolaExperience

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2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

This would be a much better post if Cameron Clark didn't get hurt and Alex Lewis didn't suddenly retire. 

But I know, narratives must persist. Facts be damned!

Did you think that Cam Clark was going to excel at RG when he was a tackle in college? Did you think a guy who played zero snaps in 2020 was going to come in and excel at RG? Some players can play guard and tackle, and those guys are called reserve linemen. Alex Lewis is a marginal upgrade, at best. Lewis was having mental issues at the end of last year. It came as no surprise that he retired. 

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dcJet

dcJet

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21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

PFF is hardly the end-all of performance discussions, but how often is someone graded this lowly but in reality they're playing really well (or even acceptably)? 

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/jets_disaster_against_patriots_highlights_issues/s1_16880_36260555

 

 

That was a good read.  Thanks

This hidden tidbit: "That being said, if safety Ashtyn Davis could not allow an 88% completion rating when targeted…that’d be great."

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slimjasi

slimjasi

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Just now, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Did you think that Cam Clark was going to excel at RG when he was a tackle in college? Did you think a guy who played zero snaps in 2020 was going to come in and excel at RG? Some players can play guard and tackle, and those guys are called reserve linemen. Alex Lewis is a marginal upgrade, at best. Lewis was having mental issues at the end of last year. It came as no surprise that he retired. 

I don't know - we have no idea what Clark would have/could have looked like this season. The point is that the OP implied that GVR was clearly the best option we had at RG going into the season, which is something that we don't really know to be true.  

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munchmemory

munchmemory

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Posted
9 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Such a fresh and original topic. The board hasn't even noticed that GVR is awful, and nobody has bothered to comment about how bad he played. Not a single person has mentioned that JD did an awful job assembling a line to protect the most important player on the team. 

At least Mims wasn't mentioned.  But while we're at it, what's that laggard doing?

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JoJoTownsell1

JoJoTownsell1

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

PFF is hardly the end-all of performance discussions, but how often is someone graded this lowly but in reality they're playing really well (or even acceptably)? 

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/jets_disaster_against_patriots_highlights_issues/s1_16880_36260555

 

 

Many  fans confuse "making plays" with playing well. Some guys like Quincy and dare I say CJ Mosley make some big plays, but that doesn't mean they are playing well every play.

As fans, we don't watch every play from every angle and understand assignments. PFF, for all the hate, have people watching every play from every angle and giving grades objectively based on what they see.

If a guy has a trash grade, it's likely because they are not playing well as a whole. And if you look at their grades, you will generally see that GMs tend to pay higher for guys that have higher PFF grades (likely because teams internal grades match what PFF is doing).  

That doesn't mean a player like CJ doesn't have value in his ability to QB the defense and that doesn't mean CJ isn't WAY better than our other options, but in terms of doing what is expected of a player on a given play I don't think guys like CJ and Quincy are as good as some  here think. 

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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4 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Many  fans confuse "making plays" with playing well. Some guys like Quincy and dare I say CJ Mosley make some big plays, but that doesn't mean they are playing well every play.

As fans, we don't watch every play from every angle and understand assignments. PFF, for all the hate, have people watching every play from every angle and giving grades objectively based on what they see.

If a guy has a trash grade, it's likely because they are not playing well as a whole. And if you look at their grades, you will generally see that GMs tend to pay higher for guys that have higher PFF grades (likely because teams internal grades match what PFF is doing).  

That doesn't mean a player like CJ doesn't have value in his ability to QB the defense and that doesn't mean CJ isn't WAY better than our other options, but in terms of doing what is expected of a player on a given play I don't think guys like CJ and Quincy are as good as some  here think. 

That's pretty much what I was saying.

Like let's say on a given play AVT was engaging the wrong assignment: a man/area that McGovern was already blocking; then AVT may not get dinged for a blown block; meanwhile he messed up really badly and the QB's on his back. But without taking those situations into account, honestly how often is someone rated in the 30s-40s but really they're playing awesome-like overall? Not too often I'd wager.

Also lol that somehow I'm the voice of relative brevity in any situation. :) 

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JazzyJet

JazzyJet

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42 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

No. Alex Lewis was the best he could do. Cameron Clark was the second best he could do. And Van Roten is the third best he could do. 

what in our franchises history would make you think that Cameron Clark was actually going to pan out if he didn't get injured? Alex Lewis was a tough pill to swallow, but he should not have been the 1st option either, he's a JAG, JD failed to build a real NFL caliber line. Alex Lewis was more suitable as a depth piece. JD should have shelled out some money for a real starting guard.

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dcJet

dcJet

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46 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Many  fans confuse "making plays" with playing well. Some guys like Quincy and dare I say CJ Mosley make some big plays, but that doesn't mean they are playing well every play.

As fans, we don't watch every play from every angle and understand assignments. PFF, for all the hate, have people watching every play from every angle and giving grades objectively based on what they see.

If a guy has a trash grade, it's likely because they are not playing well as a whole. And if you look at their grades, you will generally see that GMs tend to pay higher for guys that have higher PFF grades (likely because teams internal grades match what PFF is doing).  

That doesn't mean a player like CJ doesn't have value in his ability to QB the defense and that doesn't mean CJ isn't WAY better than our other options, but in terms of doing what is expected of a player on a given play I don't think guys like CJ and Quincy are as good as some  here think. 

Good post. So many questions with PFF

Does PFF weigh their grades based on score, time, down and distance?  

PFF also can't know the player assignment on a play.  The do your job stuff.  

And are all interceptions graded the same?  Some are great, whereas others, the ball was just thrown to the db or tipped in the air.

So many questions.  

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Alworth

Alworth

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50 minutes ago, dcJet said:

That was a good read.  Thanks

This hidden tidbit: "That being said, if safety Ashtyn Davis could not allow an 88% completion rating when targeted…that’d be great."

True, but PFF  shows that in the 9 pass attempt sample the yards per attempt has been small. These have been short passes. Davis's gaffe in Sunday's game was being, I would assume, the guiltiest party on the opening drive flea flicker (I infer his guilt because he is the left side safety--haven't seen the all-22). He clearly takes care of business as a tackler (eyeball comment, not PFF).

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JoJoTownsell1

JoJoTownsell1

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56 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Good post. So many questions with PFF

Does PFF weigh their grades based on score, time, down and distance?  

PFF also can't know the player assignment on a play.  The do your job stuff.  

And are all interceptions graded the same?  Some are great, whereas others, the ball was just thrown to the db or tipped in the air.

So many questions.  

PFF answers many of these questions here: https://www.pff.com/grades

I think PFF is a GREAT tool, but being great doesn't mean perfect. Of course, there could be a situation where a LT expects a chip block from a TE, doesn't get it and it helps cause a sack. But all in all, there are mostly 1 on 1 plays most of the game and whether a player sheds a block or doesn't, makes a block or doesn't, gets open or doesn't, catches the ball or doesn't is pretty easy to grade. 

Are Jets coaches better situated to make a more complete grade? Of course, but given that the Jets would never release that, PFF is the next best thing. Either way, you can be sure that a player with a 40 grade is bad and a player with a 90 score is really good. There is nothing nebulous about that. 

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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5 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Wilson and Lee were frustrating because they were high Draft picks. 

GVR is frustrating because he gets our QB killed. 

I never had a major problem with Skrine. He was what he was. 

lol gotta agree there. If we're going back to the 2010 draft/season, I don't know that Skrine makes anybody's top 4.

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Green hat

Green hat

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Anyone remember the high quality line that JD inherited in 2019?

LT Kelvin Beachum
LG Alex Lewis
C Jonotthan Harrison
RG Brian Winters
RT Brandon Shell

This line is absolute dog sh--t and needed an upgrade at every position. Actually, this was the case for the whole team outside of a handful of positions.

With 2 off seasons to make changes - the projected OL for 2021:

LT Mekhi Becton (upgrade)
LG Alijah Vera-Tucker (upgrade)
C Connor McGovern (upgrade. Harrison is a practice squad level talent)
RG Greg Van Roten (downgrade, but not by much. Winters was also bad and hasn't played much in years)
RT George Fant / Morgan Moses (upgrade)

Yes it is true, JD failed to upgrade the RG position. But if you go through the entire starting roster position by position, in so many cases we are better off than we were when JD started. For this reason I reserve a glimmer of hope for next year and beyond. 

It really stinks not seeing the results on the field, but I am hoping it can be explained by inexperience and a crazy amount of injuries (once again). I think if you review the entire projected starting roster (without injuries), and compare it to where we were in 2019, you see there IS a plan to improve the team and we should be moving in the right direction. Yes we still have a ways to go. We need to continue adding talent and depth (there was ZERO depth on this roster at the end of 2018), heal up, and our coaching staff needs to improve, and I expect to start seeing the results next year. 

Maybe our coaching staff will not improve. I really can't say if it will or won't. If we have better talent but see the same results next year, then it will be clear the coaching staff needs to go. 

 

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Jimmy 2 Times

Jimmy 2 Times

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Green hat said:

Anyone remember the high quality line that JD inherited in 2019?

LT Kelvin Beachum
LG Alex Lewis
C Jonotthan Harrison
RG Brian Winters
RT Brandon Shell

This line is absolute dog sh--t and needed an upgrade at every position. Actually, this was the case for the whole team outside of a handful of positions.

With 2 off seasons to make changes - the projected OL for 2021:

LT Mekhi Becton (upgrade)
LG Alijah Vera-Tucker (upgrade)
C Connor McGovern (upgrade. Harrison is a practice squad level talent)
RG Greg Van Roten (downgrade, but not by much. Winters was also bad and hasn't played much in years)
RT George Fant / Morgan Moses (upgrade)

Yes it is true, JD failed to upgrade the RG position. But if you go through the entire starting roster position by position, in so many cases we are better off than we were when JD started. For this reason I reserve a glimmer of hope for next year and beyond. 

It really stinks not seeing the results on the field, but I am hoping it can be explained by inexperience and a crazy amount of injuries (once again). I think if you review the entire projected starting roster (without injuries), and compare it to where we were in 2019, you see there IS a plan to improve the team and we should be moving in the right direction. Yes we still have a ways to go. We need to continue adding talent and depth (there was ZERO depth on this roster at the end of 2018), heal up, and our coaching staff needs to improve, and I expect to start seeing the results next year. 

Maybe our coaching staff will not improve. I really can't say if it will or won't. If we have better talent but see the same results next year, then it will be clear the coaching staff needs to go. 

 

You can go through every position and it'll arguably be better except for SS.  

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Ecuadorian Jet

Ecuadorian Jet

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3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

No. Alex Lewis was the best he could do. Cameron Clark was the second best he could do. And Van Roten is the third best he could do. 

Hmm actually no. Alex Lewis was on the chopping block because he lost his job to the Pat Elflein, who Douglas decided to not resign. Alex Lewis was never meant to be a starter in 2021. Cameron Clark, who I hope recovers nicely and has a happy life, was invisible during the entire 2020 year and was not expected to be a starter at all. Douglas brought the tragedy of a player of Dan Feeney. That was his plan. I don't buy this idea that there were these other great options that unfortunately disappeared. Joe Douglas  mismanaged the oline as a whole. He just so happened to come across Moses late in the offseason. Otherwise....

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