The Elephant in the Room

[More Cowbell]

So all along, we though LeFlure was a horrible OC that couldn't  coach his way out of a paper bag with Zach running the O. What we found out is nearly any QB can run this O when they stay within the system. I mean not only has a career never was looks great running it (White) and career never was journeyman does as well (Johnson). So what does this say about Zack exactly? I don't buy the in the booth argument. The plays we are running look the same as when Zack was our QB ,we just have had two QB's that really don't want to hold onto the ball vs. One who was always waiting for the deep receiver to get open. I think this is really what needs to be drilled into Zack's head, that he doesn't  have to play hero ball every time he passes and I think the best way to do this is he sits for the rest of this season and watches White or Johnson run this O and watches guys like Carter, Tye, Moore, and Kroft make plays after the catch a short pass. This I think is his biggest problem. In his mind he thinks if he doesn't  get the ball down field through the air, it won't  get there but the thing we are seeing is the pass catcher being able to pick up yards after the catch is key in this O which brings me to a second issue. How many times have we seen a pass Zach threw, even the deep ones where the receiver caught the ball and ran with it? I honestly can't remember one. What I remember is the receiver  going to the ground to catch it, running out of bounds, or he just gets tackled immediately. It may be too much to ask and I saw White and Johnson also have issues with this but Zack isn't  throwing anyone open. 

Now I know how cliche this sounds but we need Zack to workout badly. We can't  have two high picks at QB not workout. As much as I like White, I would rather trade him than Zack. I am just not sure he fixes this stuff. 

[LSJF]

I think the booth does make a difference, especially to a rookie OC to see the whole field…plus they finally got away from run, run, pass, punt… that being said , I think Zack watching and observing is fine… start M White see if he’s the real deal, QB competition not the worst thing….

[Thesilvermind]

I am amazed at how much better White read the field and hit guys in stride

at times Wilson looked like he would struggle with timing if he was practicing against no defense.  Everything was off.  He just looks like he is overthinking

 

 

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

Just stop. It’s a 4 game sample for Wilson vs a 2 game sample ( against soft defenses). Can we just let the season play out before making judgments every week?

[Larz]

Formatting bro

I ain’t reading that lol

[LSJF]

Just now, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Just stop. It’s a 4 game sample for Wilson vs a 2 game sample ( against soft defenses). Can we just let the season play out before making judgments every week?

You know the first bad game by White, the fans will turn on him, the bi polar nature of our fan base, lol

[JETSY14]

5 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

So all along, we though LeFlure was a horrible OC that couldn't  coach his way out of a paper bag with Zach running the O. What we found out is nearly any QB can run this O when they stay within the system. I mean not only has a career never was looks great running it (White) and career never was journeyman does as well (Johnson). So what does this say about Zack exactly? I don't buy the in the booth argument. The plays we are running look the same as when Zack was our QB ,we just have had two QB's that really don't want to hold onto the ball vs. One who was always waiting for the deep receiver to get open. I think this is really what needs to be drilled into Zack's head, that he doesn't  have to play hero ball every time he passes and I think the best way to do this is he sits for the rest of this season and watches White or Johnson run this O and watches guys like Carter, Tye, Moore, and Kroft make plays after the catch a short pass. This I think is his biggest problem. In his mind he thinks if he doesn't  get the ball down field through the air, it won't  get there but the thing we are seeing is the pass catcher being able to pick up yards after the catch is key in this O which brings me to a second issue. How many times have we seen a pass Zach threw, even the deep ones where the receiver caught the ball and ran with it? I honestly can't remember one. What I remember is the receiver  going to the ground to catch it, running out of bounds, or he just gets tackled immediately. It may be too much to ask and I saw White and Johnson also have issues with this but Zack isn't  throwing anyone open. 

Now I know how cliche this sounds but we need Zack to workout badly. We can't  have two high picks at QB not workout. As much as I like White, I would rather trade him than Zack. I am just not sure he fixes this stuff. 

Unfortunately Wilson does not have it.  He bounces balls off the turf or over/ under throws receivers when they are wide open. Obviously the OC is not the problem. Wilson can't execute and is forcing throws. Unfortunately it looks as if we wasted another top 1st round pick. 

[Uncle Nicco]

Watch the games again and see why the offense sputtered in the first half, real reasons in order:

- dropped balls

- free rushers 

- running for 2 yards on 1st/2nd down 

- Wilson rookie struggles 

Re watch the start of the NE game before Wilson got hurt, offense was working like it has been the last two weeks. 

[More Cowbell]

6 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said:

Watch the games again and see why the offense sputtered in the first half, real reasons in order:

- dropped balls

- free rushers 

- running for 2 yards on 1st/2nd down 

- Wilson rookie struggles 

Re watch the start of the NE game before Wilson got hurt, offense was working like it has been the last two weeks. 

Before Wilson got hurt we ran two drives and one was a 3 and out. Is that how the O was supposed to operate?

[More Cowbell]

19 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Just stop. It’s a 4 game sample for Wilson vs a 2 game sample ( against soft defenses). Can we just let the season play out before making judgments every week?

No, we can't.  Soft Defense? You call the Colts a soft D? Really? White engineered  a long TD drive on the second possession in the first qrt. 

The Bengals also are a good defensive team. Anyone saying Zack isn't  holding this team back after what we have witnessed  is not being realistic.  The guy needs to fix these issues. 

[More Cowbell]

23 minutes ago, Larz said:

Formatting bro

I ain’t reading that lol

I'm heart broken 

[ncjetman]

Unfortunately Wilson does not have it.  He bounces balls off the turf or over/ under throws receivers when they are wide open. Obviously the OC is not the problem. Wilson can't execute and is forcing throws. Unfortunately it looks as if we wasted another top 1st round pick. 

great post very insightful thanks


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

[jamesr]

Unfortunately Wilson does not have it.  He bounces balls off the turf or over/ under throws receivers when they are wide open. Obviously the OC is not the problem. Wilson can't execute and is forcing throws. Unfortunately it looks as if we wasted another top 1st round pick. 

And you can see all this and diagnose that it's terminal after six games?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[HawkeyeJet]

It’s easy to blame Zach, and he shoulders a good amount of blame.

That said, if you think LaFluer hasn’t completely revamped his playing calling and tendencies the past few games you are missing a big piece of the equation.  And I don’t think it’s from a “the other QBs can handle more” standpoint.

[sec101row23]

4 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

It’s easy to blame Zach, and he shoulders a good amount of blame.

That said, if you think LaFluer hasn’t completely revamped his playing calling and tendencies the past few games you are missing a big piece of the equation.  And I don’t think it’s from a “the other QBs can handle more” standpoint.

I’d agree with that.  It’s like LaFleur finally read my suggestions to utilize some 4 wide and spread things out some.  When Zach comes back, he’ll benefit greatly from some of those formations.  

[Smashmouth]

31 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Just stop. It’s a 4 game sample for Wilson vs a 2 game sample ( against soft defenses). Can we just let the season play out before making judgments every week?

2 game sample vs soft defense ??? Cincy was playing some of the best defense in the NFL and MR. White lit them up. The Colts played soft defense with 5 min left in the 4th. Even at that White led an early TD drive.

Mike White is a better QB than Zach period. White does not have to make fancy side arm throws or throw the ball deep off balance to impress he simply leads TD drives which will always be the preference.

Do I hope Zach will at some point get a grasp of what this offense should run like ? Of Course ! but I have a feeling if White keeps coming in games Zach will go further and further into the distance and wind up being the back up.

[dcJet]

You said it's the same offense which is flat out wrong. Therefore, the rest of your post is...

[Smashmouth]

You guys keep coming up with this nonsense that LaFleur ran a different offense for White and Johnson and he absolutely did not do that. What you saw Different was the way each QB handled the offense and the effect getting the ball out quickly has when moving the chains. Guys were still running the deep and intermediate routes the big factor was Cincy was taking those routes away and our other QB's realized throwing deep was not going to work. I'm not so sure Zach has realized at this stage even the great QB's like Brady and Rodgers and Mahomes have to take what's given them as well, that's what makes them great, the ability to play within a system.

OC's don't design plays on the fly they call plays out of the playbook that every QB on the team studies from. If you think he's changing the entire philosophy of the offense just to fit MW or JJ I can tell you it does not work that way. 

[Uncle Nicco]

25 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Before Wilson got hurt we ran two drives and one was a 3 and out. Is that how the O was supposed to operate?

First drive we went run run for 2 yards and then had a blown OL assignment resulting in an instant sack- if you want to blame Wilson for that go ahead- but it’s a delusion 

second drive was 12 plays (with a drop/penalties to kill drive and a missed FG), second drive we got to the 1 yard line. Wilson completed multiple accurate short passes for first downs. 

it seems like you are more concerned with pushing your narrative than examining the facts. 

[JTJet]

If you dont think being up in the booth versus down on the field was 60% of the issue at minimum, I'd like you to read this pamphlet on a new religion I'm starting up in my basement. I swear nothing weird will go down. 

Even Troy Aikman during the broadcast was commenting on how much of a difference he thought it was making. 

Give Zach a couple games with the new setup, then we can start entertaining the idea that he isnt the guy. 

[JETSY14]

16 minutes ago, ncjetman said:

great post very insightful thanks


Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

Watch the games.  Our 2nd string and practice squad QB look like superstars compared to Wilson.  The problem with Zach is he unproven due to lack of competition in college.  The best team they faced when he put impressive stats last year was Coastal Carolina and they couldn't even beat them.

 

Unfortunately JD set us back another 5 years.

[Uncle Nicco]

2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

You guys keep coming up with this nonsense that LaFleur ran a different offense for White and Johnson and he absolutely did not do that. What you saw Different was the way each QB handled the offense and the effect getting the ball out quickly has when moving the chains. Guys were still running the deep and intermediate routes the big factor was Cincy was taking those routes away and our other QB's realized throwing deep was not going to work. I'm not so sure Zach has realized at this stage even the great QB's like Brady and Rodgers and Mahomes have to take what's given them as well, that's what makes them great, the ability to play within a system.

OC's don't design plays on the fly they call plays out of the playbook that every QB on the team studies from. If you think he's changing the entire philosophy of the offense just to fit MW or JJ I can tell you it does not work that way. 

Run run sack vs 7 straight passes and trick plays. Yeah, same offense. If it makes no difference, why is lefleur in the booth? He himself said in his presses that he’s been more aggressive. You keep glossing over the improvements in catching the ball and OL protection, which were by far the biggest reasons for our offensive struggles if you actually watch the games. 

[JTJet]

2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

If you think he's changing the entire philosophy of the offense just to fit MW or JJ I can tell you it does not work that way. 

Nobody is arguing this. 

The argument is how he calls the plays with the flow of the game versus what he sees from the defense as the game progresses. 

He can pick up on defensive tendencies from the booth and adjust his strategy as he sees fit.

You cant do that standing 40 yards downfield behind your own offense. 

[Darnold615]

22 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

It’s easy to blame Zach, and he shoulders a good amount of blame.

That said, if you think LaFluer hasn’t completely revamped his playing calling and tendencies the past few games you are missing a big piece of the equation.  And I don’t think it’s from a “the other QBs can handle more” standpoint.

Agree. I think its a little bit of everything.  I imagine Lafleur (no different than zack) needs to learn and adjust to being the coordinator and calling plays since he hasn't even done that in the past.  I am guessing being the booth has helped him a bit.

Without Zach, he might also just get to think about whats next after a series as opposed to immediately having to debrief with Zach.  Hoping that this minor injury helps both QB and OC for the long run.  We do know, or have seen a glimpse at least of Mike not being a complete dud.

[Bugg]

56 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

So all along, we though LeFlure was a horrible OC that couldn't  coach his way out of a paper bag with Zach running the O. What we found out is nearly any QB can run this O when they stay within the system. I mean not only has a career never was looks great running it (White) and career never was journeyman does as well (Johnson). So what does this say about Zack exactly? I don't buy the in the booth argument. The plays we are running look the same as when Zack was our QB ,we just have had two QB's that really don't want to hold onto the ball vs. One who was always waiting for the deep receiver to get open. I think this is really what needs to be drilled into Zack's head, that he doesn't  have to play hero ball every time he passes and I think the best way to do this is he sits for the rest of this season and watches White or Johnson run this O and watches guys like Carter, Tye, Moore, and Kroft make plays after the catch a short pass. This I think is his biggest problem. In his mind he thinks if he doesn't  get the ball down field through the air, it won't  get there but the thing we are seeing is the pass catcher being able to pick up yards after the catch is key in this O which brings me to a second issue. How many times have we seen a pass Zach threw, even the deep ones where the receiver caught the ball and ran with it? I honestly can't remember one. What I remember is the receiver  going to the ground to catch it, running out of bounds, or he just gets tackled immediately. It may be too much to ask and I saw White and Johnson also have issues with this but Zack isn't  throwing anyone open. 

Now I know how cliche this sounds but we need Zack to workout badly. We can't  have two high picks at QB not workout. As much as I like White, I would rather trade him than Zack. I am just not sure he fixes this stuff. 

At this point, if White can be The Man, so be it. No point to overthinking it.  White is 6'5" and looks the part on the field and off. Wilson looks like a kid that got lost on a school  field trip. Looks like once again(Demario Davis?) this franchise cannot self scout the talent it has on hand. 

[HawkeyeJet]

17 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

I’d agree with that.  It’s like LaFleur finally read my suggestions to utilize some 4 wide and spread things out some.  When Zach comes back, he’ll benefit greatly from some of those formations.  

Yep, 4 WR sets have been huge.  Let your fast receivers play fast.   Opens up Carter between the tackles too.  They really wanted to be the Niners offense.  But they don’t have the TEs.
 

 

[Smashmouth]

3 minutes ago, dcJet said:

You said it's the same offense which is flat out wrong. Therefore, the rest of your post is...

Sorry but its the same offense run by a competent QB . Do you think after the first few games everyone in the world realized the Jets needed to get the ball out quicker and LaFleur didn't realize that until game 6 ? The design was always for Zach to make quick reads, that's the way the WCO works and has worked for 40 freakin years Don't tell me I'm flat out wrong when you are not paying attention to history or the product on the field. 

The reasons our offense looks better is because White and Johnson are hitting Receivers In stride which makes the offense much much faster. They are also getting the ball out much quicker than Zach. The way a QB hits his receivers has a huge effect on how fast an offense looks and how the offense looks in general. Zach is capable of this but I think as so many have said he over thinking and pressing way too much to make a big play . Once he realizes he's not superman then maybe the game will slow down for him.

[FidelioJet]

This discussion the the polar opposite of "The Elephant in the Room. as It's been discussed ad nauseam.   We get it, Mike White's one game performance has made LaFleur a hero and Zach a bum....

The expression "the elephant in the room (or "the elephant in the living room")^[1][2] is a metaphorical idiom in English for an important or enormous topic, question, or controversial issue that is obvious or that everyone knows about but no one mentions or wants to discuss because it makes at least some of them uncomfortable and is personally, socially, or politically embarrassing, controversial, inflammatory, or dangerous.^[3][4]

 

[undertow]

5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

You guys keep coming up with this nonsense that LaFleur ran a different offense for White and Johnson and he absolutely did not do that. What you saw Different was the way each QB handled the offense and the effect getting the ball out quickly has when moving the chains. Guys were still running the deep and intermediate routes the big factor was Cincy was taking those routes away and our other QB's realized throwing deep was not going to work. I'm not so sure Zach has realized at this stage even the great QB's like Brady and Rodgers and Mahomes have to take what's given them as well, that's what makes them great, the ability to play within a system.

OC's don't design plays on the fly they call plays out of the playbook that every QB on the team studies from. If you think he's changing the entire philosophy of the offense just to fit MW or JJ I can tell you it does not work that way. 

Saleh said in his presser yesterday nothing changed in the play calling besides a few gimmick plays it's how the system was run and decision making.  Zachs a rookie and will get better but there's no need to invent narratives to protect him.

[flgreen]

36 minutes ago, LSJF said:

I think the booth does make a difference, especially to a rookie OC to see the whole field…plus they finally got away from run, run, pass, punt… that being said , I think Zack watching and observing is fine… start M White see if he’s the real deal, QB competition not the worst thing….

This 100%.  The one pass play they did call was almost the same play over and over.  The 3 bunch WR set that had 2 of the WR's finishing their routes within a yard of one another.  Terrible play.  I haven't seen the play called since he moved to the booth. 

At the time the OL was major struggling trying to figure out their blocking zones responsibility.  Free rushers were coming from all angles.  

I also agree with your final two points, "observing is fine"  IMO it was brillant on Joe's and Saleah's part bringing in Beck to work with Wilson.  Being on the side line going over every play with a guy Wilson has  total trust in, can only lead to good things.

IMO White has earned the Bills game.  Give it to him even if Zach is ready.  If White wins in Buffalo, well then it's his team.  

 

[T0mShane]

Agreed. Zach is a bust. It’s the Mike White Era now

[kevinc855]

So many run on sentences and no paragraph formation 

cmon bro

[Smashmouth]

6 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said:

Run run sack vs 7 straight passes and trick plays. Yeah, same offense. If it makes no difference, why is lefleur in the booth? He himself said in his presses that he’s been more aggressive. You keep glossing over the improvements in catching the ball and OL protection, which were by far the biggest reasons for our offensive struggles if you actually watch the games. 

You can't run trick plays if the offense is not in sync that would be totally irresponsible. The reason the Jets were not running some of those plays is because they were constantly going 3 and out, not even reaching the 50 yard line and you don't want to run many of those type plays inside your own 30 yardline. There were some games Zach had less than 20 yards passing in the first half so tell me where are you getting creative with that ??

The things you are pointing to ALL are due to the fact Our current QB's are getting the ball out much faster than Zach. Every OL in the NFL is designed to create a pocket and hold that pocket for about 4 seconds. Some of the better defense get to you in less than 3. if you are constantly looking deep you are going to be in trouble more often than not. You have too, as an NFL QB, pick your spots as to when you go for the big strike if you don't you're going to get hammered or be forced into bad throws.

[Smashmouth]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This discussion the the polar opposite of "The Elephant in the Room. as It's been discussed ad nauseam.   We get it, Mike White's one game performance has made LaFleur a hero and Zach a bum....

The expression "the elephant in the room (or "the elephant in the living room")^[1][2] is a metaphorical idiom in English for an important or enormous topic, question, or controversial issue that is obvious or that everyone knows about but no one mentions or wants to discuss because it makes at least some of them uncomfortable and is personally, socially, or politically embarrassing, controversial, inflammatory, or dangerous.^[3][4]

 

And you are taking the "zach is a bum" crap way too far .... Zach is NOT A BUM he's a damn rookie who has to learn to play within a system before he tries to start lighting up the league. Its really simple once Zach calms down he will do better unfortunately that takes time and through 5.5 games he has not done that yet.

[sec101row23]

10 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Yep, 4 WR sets have been huge.  Let your fast receivers play fast.   Opens up Carter between the tackles too.  They really wanted to be the Niners offense.  But they don’t have the TEs.
 

 

Or the fullback.  Should look more like what McVay is doing in L.A. and what Shanahan did in Atlanta.