The Elephant in the Room

[doitny]

1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Wilson did not get us to the one yard line against the Pats. WTF?

yes he did. he threw it down field and had the pass interference call at the 1. then White got us in for the TD,

same play he got injured on

[derp]

A perk to the Shanahan offense has always been that it makes things easy for quarterbacks. We saw it when it dragged Garoppolo to the Super Bowl, we’d see it when he got hurt and they didn’t miss much of a beat with Mullens and Beathard, we saw it with Kirk Cousins. The offense has always been built around offensive line play, play action, and an elite alpha receiver.

On top of that, the bust rate for QB’s at the tippy top of the draft has been insanely high for a while now. More misses than hits and by a wide margin.

That being the case, taking a quarterback at 2 seemed risky and without really a whole lot of a point for the system they’re running. Even before you get to the team installing a new system with a first time OC and mediocre personnel. 

To me this wasn’t a situation that you take the QB if you don’t have one and see what happens - you need to be pretty confident you’re getting a 15 year answer who’s going to have you in the playoff conversation annually. Otherwise it’d be more prudent to just take an elite talent at the top of the draft, build, and develop a QB at another point. Particularly when you’re absolutely loaded with draft capital going forward.

We’ll see, I hope Douglas got it right, but continue to think the risk-reward for the situation there was way off. Just wasn’t the right time.

All that said the arm talent is special and I love the stress pushing the ball down the field puts on defenses. But it seems like he’s not ready yet and I don’t think the team around him does any favors.

[Smashmouth]

21 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said:

They are the facts of what happened, It makes sense that you wouldn’t care since it contradicts the story you’ve invented in your head 

No actually the entire argument you are trying to make is pure nonsense. You are seeing more of the playbook with White because White actually sustained drives and ran a lot of plays . You didn't see much of that with Zach because Zach is not ready. So the logic you are trying to put forth is flawed due to those facts. You can't run a playbook when your QB has 4 yards passing in the first half and a bunch of terrible first halves in every game he played. When that happens and offense can't get in rhythm and it can't open the playbook further if you can't get more than a 3 and out or hit WR"s or even RB's on check downs in stride. Zach has talent but he's not ready the only thing that needs to change at this stage is Zach, not the play calling . 

[jgb]

People who expect Zach’s issues to magically be fixed because Lafleur is in the booth are really hoping against hope.

[peekskill68]

59 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I hear what you are saying but keep in mind in order to run these different formations you have to possess the ball and sustain drives Zach Wilson has not really had much success in sustaining drives especially in the first half. If the offense cant move the ball you can't do a lot of the things you mention. The WCO runs those plays in various sections of the field so you are going to see a different type of play calling before the 50 as opposed to what you see inside the 50 or the 30 or the 20 problem is we have not seen Zach much from the standpoint of sustaining drives and that's why you are seeing much more of the playbook with White running the offense. if you want to see more of Zach running those plays he's going to have to advance to that stage and he has not done that as of yet.

I was at the Carolina game and after watching both White and Johnson the last two games, I'm convinced we would have beaten the Panthers if either had started over Wilson.  He had his backs open for quick throws the whole game and never seemed interested in taking them...

[TuscanyTile2]

This thread would be an ideal place for Crusher to break out his "No personal attacks please" joke.

 

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

This thread would be an ideal place for Crusher to break out his "No personal attacks please" joke.

 

Yes all attacks should be impersonal, from behind, and cloaked by the cover of night.

[Smashmouth]

30 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said:

They are the facts of what happened, It makes sense that you wouldn’t care since it contradicts the story you’ve invented in your head 

No you think because you did a video breakdown you win the argument annd that I must adhere to your logic and opinion and just dismiss what I know to be 100 % true and that's Zach Wilson is not ready and he has not done anything to sustain drives therefore opening more of the playbook. The guy can barely get past constant 3 and outs so where are these so called Different plays coming from if he can barely get past 3 ? You are making up in your head that Zach is not getting the plays like MW when the problem is he's not running nearly as many plays as Mike White for a freakin reason.

[Smashmouth]

8 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

I was at the Carolina game and after watching both White and Johnson the last two games, I'm convinced we would have beaten the Panthers if either had started over Wilson.  He had his backs open for quick throws the whole game and never seemed interested in taking them...

But But.... the play calling man the play calling 

[Jet2020]

2 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Just stop. It’s a 4 game sample for Wilson vs a 2 game sample ( against soft defenses). Can we just let the season play out before making judgments every week?

Have you seen Zach play? Seems like a high school kid trying to make the cut. No exaggeration. He can’t hit a slant without receivers getting whacked. He can’t hit a wide open RB in the flat without having them stop dead in their tracks and reach around for the ball. Zach has been extremely poor while White has been trying to complete the passes and letting his players do the rest, which is what good QBs do on 90% of their passes. Hell, even uncle Josh, literally on his 20th team, looked like Montana back there compared to baby Zach.

Maybe Zach needs a year off from starting. Maybe he’ll come back strong. But right now, I’m done with the embarrassments and we need the best QB to play and put up 25+ a game. 

[peekskill68]

5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

But But.... the play calling man the play calling 

To be fair, the OL was hot garbage that game - 6 sacks (not all on Zack) and 45 yds rushing.  They're playing better now, as are both Carter and Johnson...

[Smashmouth]

16 minutes ago, Jet2020 said:

Have you seen Zach play? Seems like a high school kid trying to make the cut. No exaggeration. He can’t hit a slant without receivers getting whacked. He can’t hit a wide open RB in the flat without having them stop dead in their tracks and reach around for the ball. Zach has been extremely poor while White has been trying to complete the passes and letting his players do the rest, which is what good QBs do on 90% of their passes. Hell, even uncle Josh, literally on his 20th team, looked like Montana back there compared to baby Zach.

Maybe Zach needs a year off from starting. Maybe he’ll come back strong. But right now, I’m done with the embarrassments and we need the best QB to play and put up 25+ a game. 

This is the bottom line and 100 % correct. Some posters don't want to go by the Facts and continue to make excuses for the guy they think should be running the show when he is obviously are not ready to do so.

[Smashmouth]

34 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

This thread would be an ideal place for Crusher to break out his "No personal attacks please" joke.

 

Who's this Crusher guy you speak of ?

[The Crusher]

36 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

This thread would be an ideal place for Crusher to break out his "No personal attacks please" joke.

 

Literally just getting ready to. Haha, I need a new schtick, 

[TheMo]

Guys we just got through this with Darnold. The million excuses thing. And once again ignored the obvious likely answer that the QB is the issue. Except in this case a current competent replacement is showing us that's probably the case.

 

Can Wilson get better? Sure. But let's not pretend he's been a Darnold like victim of circumstance. It's just bad logic. The main variable changed was the QB but everyone wants to pick on the minor shifts to avoid the obvious change. 

[Uncle Nicco]

9 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

This is the bottom line and 100 % correct. Some posters don't want to go by the Facts and continue to make excuses for the guy they think should be running the show when he is obviously are not ready to do so.

The only one ignoring the facts is you. I gave you the videos. Just watch them and actually see why the offense sucked in the first quarter. 

[TuscanyTile2]

10 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Literally just getting ready to. Haha, I need a new schtick, 

LMAO!  No you don't.  It's hysterical.  And you're the man for having such a good sense of humor.  

[Beerfish]

How do you know an Elephant is under your bed?     .....  Your nose is 3 inches from the ceiling.

What do you call a cross between and Elephant and a Rhinoceros?    Ell if I know.

 

[DoubleDown]

As with most things in life it's a combination of factors. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Not everything is black and white.

1) Wilson has missed some easy plays and as a result the offense had a difficult time getting into any sort of rhythm especially early in games.

2) LaFleur is growing as an offensive coordinator. We are seeing more screens, less two tight end sets, and more trick plays to keep the defense a bit off balance.

3) The offensive line is playing better in both pass protection and opening up holes in the run game.

Wilson can certainly step up and play better with a better offensive line and quicker, easier reads. Let's see what happens. He's had a couple of weeks to reset his head.

I was a firm believer in letting Wilson sit and learn to start the season. The Jets should not be in any rush to get him back out there at this point.

People already writing Wilson off after 5 games are not being realistic.

[Smashmouth]

26 minutes ago, Uncle Nicco said:

The only one ignoring the facts is you. I gave you the videos. Just watch them and actually see why the offense sucked in the first quarter. 

Nicco you gave me nothing I have not already seen 10 x over  you can't selectively pick videos to make your point. Zach has been horrible for entire halves of games, he's been horrible at sustaining drives and he's been horrible at hitting his receivers in stride if you are in denial about that then so be it. 

I get you want Zach to succeed, I do as well, but as of right now Mike White is the man and if you want to see Zach run more of the play book all he has to do is sustain drives and he will get more plays. If you have 20 plays available to you as your offense progresses during a game then do more than one or 2 series and you will see more of those plays. To think the play book has changed is not how this works so you're trying to make a point that does not exist. If Zach had as many plays and sustained drives as Mike White you would see him running those plays but the sad fact is Zach has not progressed that far in any single game to open that playbook you think just exists for Mike White.

[Uncle Nicco]

7 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Nicco you gave me nothing I have not already seen 10 x over  you can't selectively pick videos to make your point. Zach has been horrible for entire halves of games, he's been horrible at sustaining drives and he's been horrible at hitting his receivers in stride if you are in denial about that then so be it. 

I get you want Zach to succeed, I do as well, but as of right now Mike White is the man and if you want to see Zach run more of the play book all he has to do is sustain drives and he will get more plays. If you have 20 plays available to you as your offense progresses during a game then do more than one or 2 series and you will see more of those plays. To think the play book has changed is not how this works so you're trying to make a point that does not exist. If Zach had as many plays and sustained drives as Mike White you would see him running those plays but the sad fact is Zach has not progressed that far in any single game to open that playbook you think just exists for Mike White.

I didn’t select anything, it’s every single first quarter drive Wilson has played. Spelled out for you, yet you keep ignoring it. Truly bizarre 

[Larz]

Sowhat does this say about Zack exactly?

he’s a rookie

cool thread ?

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, derp said:

A perk to the Shanahan offense has always been that it makes things easy for quarterbacks. We saw it when it dragged Garoppolo to the Super Bowl, we’d see it when he got hurt and they didn’t miss much of a beat with Mullens and Beathard, we saw it with Kirk Cousins. The offense has always been built around offensive line play, play action, and an elite alpha receiver.

On top of that, the bust rate for QB’s at the tippy top of the draft has been insanely high for a while now. More misses than hits and by a wide margin.

That being the case, taking a quarterback at 2 seemed risky and without really a whole lot of a point for the system they’re running. Even before you get to the team installing a new system with a first time OC and mediocre personnel. 

To me this wasn’t a situation that you take the QB if you don’t have one and see what happens - you need to be pretty confident you’re getting a 15 year answer who’s going to have you in the playoff conversation annually. Otherwise it’d be more prudent to just take an elite talent at the top of the draft, build, and develop a QB at another point. Particularly when you’re absolutely loaded with draft capital going forward.

We’ll see, I hope Douglas got it right, but continue to think the risk-reward for the situation there was way off. Just wasn’t the right time.

All that said the arm talent is special and I love the stress pushing the ball down the field puts on defenses. But it seems like he’s not ready yet and I don’t think the team around him does any favors.

For all the talk that the Shanahan offense made Garoppolo, his record within and outside of the Shanahan offense is pretty good no matter where hes played.  And the Shanahan offense didnt make life easy or fluff filled for Kaep.  

The FO totally believes in Wilson and that why they should have drafted him.  They believe hes a perfect fit for this offense.  So did everyone else predraft.  That he had the usual rookie struggles doesnt change it any more than Lawrences struggles havent changed his projections, Fields projections, etc.  Making up some imaginary risk-reward situation doesnt change that, it just creates a word where you would never envision drafting a QB.

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, Larz said:

Sowhat does this say about Zack exactly?

he’s a rookie

cool thread ?

Amazing concept, isnt it?  

 

[Jet25]

Smartest decision would be to start Mike White and see what we have in him for the rest of the season.

Play Mike White and if he shows that he's the real deal for the rest of the season, then it looks like we found our guy. If they decided to start Zach Wilson and he stinks it up... We all know Jet fans will boo Zach Wilson out of the stadium and start chanting that they want Mike White. Zach Wilson needs to fix his short inaccurate throws even on the dump offs and that can't change overnight.

The more this offense can move the ball, it helps develop our young players on offense and they can't develop if Wilson can't move the ball on offense and it holds our entire offense's future back.

We could be in a New England Patriots situation when they traded Jimmy G for a 2nd round if I remember right. We trade Zach Wilson in two-three years(this is only if White proves to us that he's a franchise QB).

Why on earth would any Jet fans say screw Mike White who is only 26 by the way, "I don't care if he balls out the rest of the season, Zach Wilson is our future..." We would be gambling if Wilson is a franchise QB or not and also JD's job will be on the line if Zach fails BUT if White doesn't fail then JD's job will no longer be in jeopardy. We have got to do what is best for the team and have no favoritism toward any QB

[slats]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

No Slats you don't need a QB who can get the "Ball" downfield you need a QB who can get the "team" downfield. With the mentality that throwing the ball downfield is what wins we will certainly lose. All the great QB's are great because they excel in the short passing game then strike downfield. As I stated before Tom Brady made a career sticking that right in our faces yet Jets fans still can't see it. And FWIW Mike White has a strong arm its not crazy elite but he can make very throw so if he happens to have a better grasp of the mental game I'll take that 100 out of 100 times over the elite arm who thinks he can win games with 1 throw. This league and this offense is about moving the chains and sustaining drives and there is no arguing that fact

Franchise caliber QBs in the NFL have that quick strike ability that Mike White does not currently possess. Listen, I was impressed with that debut, too, but to anoint him based on five quarters of work is just silly. He frequently hit his check downs when he had receivers open downfield. When he tried to throw anything more than 10-15 yards, he was way off the mark. He appears to be aware of his limitations and has done a good job minimizing them, but he does not have the natural talent that Wilson has. Zach may not ever reach his potential, but it’s way too early to say one way or the other. White just simply doesn’t have that same potential. He’s Alex Smith, Teddy Bridgewater, a guy who will give you solid, competent play but that you’ll always be looking to upgrade from. The Jets have that type of potential in Wilson already on the roster, and he’ll be back in the starting lineup sooner rather than later. I suspect that Mike White’s historic debut will help settle him into running the offense as designed instead of constantly going for the big play. But also, taking the big play when it’s there, the one White passes on to check down. 

[Hex]

1 minute ago, slats said:

Franchise caliber QBs in the NFL have that quick strike ability that Mike White does not currently possess. Listen, I was impressed with that debut, too, but to anoint him based on five quarters of work is just silly. He frequently hit his check downs when he had receivers open downfield. When he tried to throw anything more than 10-15 yards, he was way off the mark. He appears to be aware of his limitations and has done a good job minimizing them, but he does not have the natural talent that Wilson has. Zach may not ever reach his potential, but it’s way too early to say one way or the other. White just simply doesn’t have that same potential. He’s Alex Smith, Teddy Bridgewater, a guy who will give you solid, competent play but that you’ll always be looking to upgrade from. The Jets have that type of potential in Wilson already on the roster, and he’ll be back in the starting lineup sooner rather than later. I suspect that Mike White’s historic debut will help settle him into running the offense as designed instead of constantly going for the big play. But also, taking the big play when it’s there, the one White passes on to check down. 

So I guess the takeaway is that Zach and Mike have almost opposite strengths and problems, both of which will show at different times

Totally agree, good post

[Joe W. Namath]

“So all along, we though LeFlure was a horrible OC that couldn't  coach his way out of a paper bag”

Smart football minds nor myself thought this.  Only impatient jet fans who do not understand what is going on thought this.  Mike Lafleur is one of the brightest, young offensive minds in the game.

Zach is going to be a great qb here.  He is just young and struggling with the speed of the nfl game.

There is no elephant in the room.  Theres just a young qb who will need some time to get used to the nfl game.

[Matt39]

Thought this was going to be a Ginny Sack joke.

[Scotty Wooty Doo Doo]

Any idiot can see the offensive play calling has been dramatically different since LF went upstairs.Not saying that being upstairs is the reason, but Maybe had he been calling these same plays we may have more than 2 wins . Electing to not take the ball first could have played into the fray as we were playing from behind immediately,, and Run,run,pass sequence does nothing.

Sent from my SM-G996U using JetNation.com mobile app

[Joejet]

26 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

For all the talk that the Shanahan offense made Garoppolo, his record within and outside of the Shanahan offense is pretty good no matter where hes played.  And the Shanahan offense didnt make life easy or fluff filled for Kaep.  

The FO totally believes in Wilson and that why they should have drafted him.  They believe hes a perfect fit for this offense.  So did everyone else predraft.  That he had the usual rookie struggles doesnt change it any more than Lawrences struggles havent changed his projections, Fields projections, etc.  Making up some imaginary risk-reward situation doesnt change that, it just creates a word where you would never envision drafting a QB.

Kaep didn’t play for Shanahan.

[Smashmouth]

Well from what I see a percentage of you guys have no idea what the WCO is or how it works. You are also fabricating this bullsh*t narrative that somehow the offense this team has been running since training camp has drastically changed. You keep on living in your fantasy worlds, I'm done arguing the point when you can't see that at "THIS STAGE" one QB is just more mentally ready to run this offense than another. I wonder sometimes if you guys watch any other NFL football other than the Jets because this would explain the total lack of knowledge of how this specific offense works and how a QB should work within that offense. Zach does have all the tools we agree on that no questions asked but the key factor and the most important factor when it comes to the QB position is does he have what it takes upstairs to succeed that's is still very much in question.

[derp]

40 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

For all the talk that the Shanahan offense made Garoppolo, his record within and outside of the Shanahan offense is pretty good no matter where hes played.  And the Shanahan offense didnt make life easy or fluff filled for Kaep.  

The FO totally believes in Wilson and that why they should have drafted him.  They believe hes a perfect fit for this offense.  So did everyone else predraft.  That he had the usual rookie struggles doesnt change it any more than Lawrences struggles havent changed his projections, Fields projections, etc.  Making up some imaginary risk-reward situation doesnt change that, it just creates a word where you would never envision drafting a QB.

Garoppolo’s other experience was playing on loaded Patriots teams. Of course his record is good. And Kaepernick didn’t play for Shanahan.

And obviously the FO loves him, I even said that, the question is whether or not they’re right and how certain they needed to be to justify the decision. As for things changing, I’ve been saying the same thing since before they drafted him - a QB at 2 was a unnecessarily risky given the track record and starting Wilson on this roster was a questionable decision.

I also don’t understand how talking about the risk and reward of a decision can be made up or imaginary. And there are absolutely times you’d draft a QB, they’d just line up with how it actually works out instead of teams just continually throwing **** against a wall and hoping it sticks.

[JohnnyLV]

5 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

So all along, we though LeFlure was a horrible OC that couldn't  coach his way out of a paper bag with Zach running the O. What we found out is nearly any QB can run this O when they stay within the system. I mean not only has a career never was looks great running it (White) and career never was journeyman does as well (Johnson). So what does this say about Zack exactly? I don't buy the in the booth argument. The plays we are running look the same as when Zack was our QB ,we just have had two QB's that really don't want to hold onto the ball vs. One who was always waiting for the deep receiver to get open. I think this is really what needs to be drilled into Zack's head, that he doesn't  have to play hero ball every time he passes and I think the best way to do this is he sits for the rest of this season and watches White or Johnson run this O and watches guys like Carter, Tye, Moore, and Kroft make plays after the catch a short pass. This I think is his biggest problem. In his mind he thinks if he doesn't  get the ball down field through the air, it won't  get there but the thing we are seeing is the pass catcher being able to pick up yards after the catch is key in this O which brings me to a second issue. How many times have we seen a pass Zach threw, even the deep ones where the receiver caught the ball and ran with it? I honestly can't remember one. What I remember is the receiver  going to the ground to catch it, running out of bounds, or he just gets tackled immediately. It may be too much to ask and I saw White and Johnson also have issues with this but Zack isn't  throwing anyone open. 

Now I know how cliche this sounds but we need Zack to workout badly. We can't  have two high picks at QB not workout. As much as I like White, I would rather trade him than Zack. I am just not sure he fixes this stuff. 

There are several HUGE differences. 

1. LaFleur tried to force the run early with Zach to set up the pass

2. Last 2 weeks he has passed on first and second down way more often to set up the run

3. He is not using the tight bunch formations much at all. He is spreading the receivers out and threatening the boundaries

4. With Zach he ran a ton of 12 and 22 personnel, lately we have been almost exclusively in 11 and 10 as we should be

5. Corey Davis has been out. LaFleur was calling plays to key on Davis because Zach was most comfortable with it.

Now it remains to be see if LaFleur keeps this up, but if he does expect much better performance from Zach when he comes back.

Having said that I do want to see White against the Bills and not Zach for many reasons.

 

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, Uncle Nicco said:

The only one ignoring the facts is you. I gave you the videos. Just watch them and actually see why the offense sucked in the first quarter. 

Here's some facts for you from the Horses Mouth. Listen carefully when he says he calls plays based on the flow of the game. Nothing has changed other than the fact White has taken what he was given and got the ball out quick. This is from todays presser with LaFleur.