As a Reminder: JD Player Grading System

[varjet]

If any of us were doing the drafting in 2020 and not JD, the Jets would be a playoff team in 2022.  

JD arguably needs at least 2 drafts to build a team, and is first one was almost a complete whiff.  

We still need another T-TB is not looking for one this off season.

We still need a WR.  We still need a S.  We still need a RB.  We still need a backup QB.  We still need plenty of EDGE. 

Combined with Fant, the 2020 could have basically locked in 2-3 OL picks and have it set for years.  Instead, the Jets are looking to draft another OL with the pick at 4.  Its just disgraceful.  

[cincy jets fan12]

5 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

He inherited such great talent.  You do realize he is building a team from scratch since only one  draft pick is on the team from the 2013-19 draft.

JD sucks.  You guys are beyond delusional.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

15 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Douglas has to own the picks no matter who they were made for. Giving him a pass due to Gase is laughable.

It's also why I say Fck the scheme, draft good players and it is up to the coaches figure it out.

I just love looking at potential pro bowl quality players before the draft and then being told, sorry doesn't fit the scheme.

This will always be a dividing line among draft junkies. Personally, I lean to the "fit the system" side, with the proviso that you still want the best players with those specific skill sets. Are there players who are versatile enough and sharp enough to fit in any system? Sure. But not many. A WR who has good hands, can run precise routes, has speed, and can block occasionally will look good in any system, just as a RB who has acceleration, good vision, can catch passes, and block is not really system specific. Overall, however, coaches want players who can carry out their game plans, not the other way around.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

8 minutes ago, varjet said:

If any of us were doing the drafting in 2020 and not JD, the Jets would be a playoff team in 2022.  

JD arguably needs at least 2 drafts to build a team, and is first one was almost a complete whiff.  

We still need another T-TB is not looking for one this off season.

We still need a WR.  We still need a S.  We still need a RB.  We still need a backup QB.  We still need plenty of EDGE. 

Combined with Fant, the 2020 could have basically locked in 2-3 OL picks and have it set for years.  Instead, the Jets are looking to draft another OL with the pick at 4.  Its just disgraceful.  

I get the frustration, but I think this is over the top. I would certainly agree we should have gone in twice for a WR in a deep year -- that was puzzling. But in the end, the 2020 draft will be "good" based on whether Becton shows up. If he does, then that draft produced Becton, Davis, Hall, and Mann, with Zuniga a bubble guy. Clark suffered an injury that was unusual and ended his career -- bad luck, but not a bad pick at the time. Morgan and Perrine were mediocre picks. Mims had the physical tools and seemed a steal at the time. He has busted at this point -- apparently because he has some kind of learning deficit and keeps screwing up assignment and routes. But just compare 2020 to teh 2019 and 2018 drafts. Those were truly terrible drafts.

[doitny]

28 minutes ago, maury77 said:

How is it a good use of resources to completely trash an entire draft class after one season because the new staff has a different scheme in mind? Your staff has a responsibility to win games with what they have, they shouldn’t get the luxury of trashing a season and a draft class because of their scheme. If it was, say, Sean Payton that came in and wanted to do that, then fine, at least he has a record of success. Saleh and his staff are all rookies that have to earn the benefit of a doubt.

so then were not allowed to change schemes because it would hurt the 2020 draft class? if that was the case we would still be running Weeb Ewbanks offense and defense. 

teams change schemes all the time. most players can change. some can not. look at Mims who couldnt get on the field because he couldnt learn the route tree. and when he did he looked lost. Berrios a backup just like Mims had to learn the same thing and did, and exceled in it.

Becton (for a half at least), Mims, Davis, Perine, Hall and Mann all made the team. Zuniga played a little. except for Hall the rest arent good enough. 

[section314]

9 minutes ago, doitny said:

so then were not allowed to change schemes because it would hurt the 2020 draft class? if that was the case we would still be running Weeb Ewbanks offense and defense. 

teams change schemes all the time. most players can change. some can not. look at Mims who couldnt get on the field because he couldnt learn the route tree. and when he did he looked lost. Berrios a backup just like Mims had to learn the same thing and did, and exceled in it.

Becton (for a half at least), Mims, Davis, Perine, Hall and Mann all made the team. Zuniga played a little. except for Hall the rest arent good enough. 

Where can I sign up? ?

[maury77]

15 minutes ago, doitny said:

so then were not allowed to change schemes because it would hurt the 2020 draft class? if that was the case we would still be running Weeb Ewbanks offense and defense. 

 tteams change schemes all the time. most players can change. some can not. look at Mims who couldnt get on the field because he couldnt learn the route tree. and when he did he looked lost. Berrios a backup just like Mims had to learn the same thing and did, and exceled in it.

Becton (for a half at least), Mims, Davis, Perine, Hall and Mann all made the team. Zuniga played a little. except for Hall the rest arent good enough. 

1. You adapt your "system" to fit the talent on your team;

2. Coming into last season, most people on the board were bullish on Becton and Mims, but now they are both suddenly hacks because Saleh and his career 4-13 record says so. 

Becton and Mims may both ultimately suck, but they were both trending in the right direction before the new staff came aboard. The staff doesn't take ANY of the blame for that decline? Ok. 

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

This will always be a dividing line among draft junkies. Personally, I lean to the "fit the system" side, with the proviso that you still want the best players with those specific skill sets. Are there players who are versatile enough and sharp enough to fit in any system? Sure. But not many. A WR who has good hands, can run precise routes, has speed, and can block occasionally will look good in any system, just as a RB who has acceleration, good vision, can catch passes, and block is not really system specific. Overall, however, coaches want players who can carry out their game plans, not the other way around.

Teams may draft to fit scheme in the late rounds, because that's when looking at those players with more weaknesses and fewer strengths, so trying to pick out those a team feels like they can better utilize.

However, if a GM is seriously making a selection at the top of the first for a player that he believes to be purely a scheme fit, then he's totally unqualified for the job.  It would have to be considered a bad pick regardless, but it's apparently then a question of whether knowingly making a bad pick, which should hardly be viewed as an improvement.

[Jetsfan80]

20 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

Some grading systems can’t measure HEART!

Well yeah, but you still need something to tell you if a pass rusher has stiff hips.  Lorenzo Mauldin had all the "heart" in the world, and was a nice story.  But he also had stiff hips, and should have received nothing more than a late round/UDFA grade.  Macc took him in the 3rd round.

 

[slats]

47 minutes ago, maury77 said:

1. You adapt your "system" to fit the talent on your team;

2. Coming into last season, most people on the board were bullish on Becton and Mims, but now they are both suddenly hacks because Saleh and his career 4-13 record says so. 

Becton and Mims may both ultimately suck, but they were both trending in the right direction before the new staff came aboard. The staff doesn't take ANY of the blame for that decline? Ok. 

I agree on the top line, in general, but in this particular case I feel like last season was all about installing the systems the way they want them run. And I didn’t mind that. 
 
I’m still holding out hope for Becton. I believe he can come back. As for Mims, I really want to know what happened there. But both players are mysteries. I wouldn’t say Becton declined, he got hurt, and his inability to return is troublesome. Mims just seems like the unluckiest guy in the world, but there must be a lot of behind the scenes stuff we just don’t know about with him. It’s frustrating, because he has all the physical attributes that you’d hope for in a WR, but he can’t get it together. Mentally, he wasn’t there. Is that something he can correct? It’s possible that this system might be too complex for him, or that the NFL is. Wouldn’t be the first time. 

[doitny]

59 minutes ago, maury77 said:

1. You adapt your "system" to fit the talent on your team;

2. Coming into last season, most people on the board were bullish on Becton and Mims, but now they are both suddenly hacks because Saleh and his career 4-13 record says so. 

Becton and Mims may both ultimately suck, but they were both trending in the right direction before the new staff came aboard. The staff doesn't take ANY of the blame for that decline? Ok. 

1. we have been running a 3-4 since the days of Rex, maybe even longer. our guys were drafted for that. i guess we cant change? 

in case you haven't notice only a few guys haven't got the new system or haven't adapted to it. 

so the whole OL who struggled early but then played well learnt the new system. if Becton doesnt do well with it should we go back to Gases blocking system because of one man? 

and Mims gets nothing from me. he and Berrios had to learn the exact same things as a backup WR and we all know the story there.

i guess you blame the CS for Bectons weight issues. or him taking 17 weeks to heal from a 8 week injury? or Mims with his problems which seem to be many. 

every new HC brings in his own system. whether its Bill Parcells, Robert Saleh or Brian DaBoll. who i can bet isn't running Joe Judges system. 

and new HC usually take over losing teams. so why would they want to run the same system.? 

and your lucky JD drafted those guys. you know another GM wouldn't care about guys he didn't draft. everyone but Becton and Hall would be gone. 

watch the Giants. they might not do a complete tear down like us, but in the next 2 years that roster will change by more than 50%. they will bring in their type of guys who can run their system and they won't care who or where Gettleman drafted anyone. 

 

[maury77]

49 minutes ago, doitny said:

1. we have been running a 3-4 since the days of Rex, maybe even longer. our guys were drafted for that. i guess we cant change? 

in case you haven't notice only a few guys haven't got the new system or haven't adapted to it. 

so the whole OL who struggled early but then played well learnt the new system. if Becton doesnt do well with it should we go back to Gases blocking system because of one man? 

and Mims gets nothing from me. he and Berrios had to learn the exact same things as a backup WR and we all know the story there.

i guess you blame the CS for Bectons weight issues. or him taking 17 weeks to heal from a 8 week injury? or Mims with his problems which seem to be many. 

every new HC brings in his own system. whether its Bill Parcells, Robert Saleh or Brian DaBoll. who i can bet isn't running Joe Judges system. 

and new HC usually take over losing teams. so why would they want to run the same system.? 

and your lucky JD drafted those guys. you know another GM wouldn't care about guys he didn't draft. everyone but Becton and Hall would be gone. 

watch the Giants. they might not do a complete tear down like us, but in the next 2 years that roster will change by more than 50%. they will bring in their type of guys who can run their system and they won't care who or where Gettleman drafted anyone. 

 

I guess we will find out when Mims and Becton are on new teams, lord knows we’ve never seen players thrive after they leave the Jets (this is sarcasm).

[Long Island Leprechaun]

2 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Teams may draft to fit scheme in the late rounds, because that's when looking at those players with more weaknesses and fewer strengths, so trying to pick out those a team feels like they can better utilize.

However, if a GM is seriously making a selection at the top of the first for a player that he believes to be purely a scheme fit, then he's totally unqualified for the job.  It would have to be considered a bad pick regardless, but it's apparently then a question of whether knowingly making a bad pick, which should hardly be viewed as an improvement.

Usually, the blue chip player high in the first round are versatile enough and talented enough to mesh with any system. That's part of what makes them blue chip. But system is going to be a factor early on in any case, particularly when you have two closely graded players at a position of interest/need. It's just another part of the overall equation. It won't be ignored, but it may not be a determinant. As I said, I "lean" to system. And I think that's probably the case with most GM's. It's not all or nothing. That would be stupid either way.

[Big_Slick]

10 hours ago, slats said:

Gee, it’s almost like no one ever gets better at anything after the first time they do it. 

After 13 years as a NFL scout I expected JD would be a little better at talent evaluation in his rookie year.

[Hal N of Provo]

5 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

After 13 years as a NFL scout I expected JD would be a little better at talent evaluation in his rookie year.

And worse than he was in his second year 

[Big_Slick]

10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Of course he did, picks that fit a system. Pretty obvious given the switch in priorities with the last draft.  
Who said the 2020 draft was good or did you not catch the line that every GM has their down draft

Patience after his first draft.  Give the guy a break

It was obvious a LT was a necessity and WR needed help. It didn't matter who was coaching, the positions selected were needed (except for Morgan) but JD picked a bust in Mims and even the coaches are publicly questioning Becton.

 

[Bleedin Green]

4 hours ago, maury77 said:

I guess we will find out when Mims and Becton are on new teams, lord knows we’ve never seen players thrive after they leave the Jets (this is sarcasm).

How much sarcasm really though?  Those destined for greatness elsewhere often gets claimed when folks want to fawn over a Jets' failure, but has there been anyone more recent than James Farrior where that actually happened?

We had to most recently hear from some about the pending greatness of Darnold in Carolina, and all saw how that worked out.  Becton might be a bit of a wait and see, primarily for health reasons, but Mims is simply Chris Herndon 2.0, a couple of mediocre guys some became undeservedly hung up on after grading them on an excessively generous rookie curve.

[32EBoozer]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Well yeah, but you still need something to tell you if a pass rusher has stiff hips.  Lorenzo Mauldin had all the "heart" in the world, and was a nice story.  But he also had stiff hips, and should have received nothing more than a late round/UDFA grade.  Macc took him in the 3rd round.

 

Heart is the last thing taken into account…. Not the first thing. Maudlin was a MacDaddy pick. Why is he even in this discussion?

Talent, positional value, system fit, Football IQ and THEN heart/love of game.

[maury77]

16 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

How much sarcasm really though?  Those destined for greatness elsewhere often gets claimed when folks want to fawn over a Jets' failure, but has there been anyone more recent than James Farrior where that actually happened?

We had to most recently hear from some about the pending greatness of Darnold in Carolina, and all saw how that worked out.  Becton might be a bit of a wait and see, primarily for health reasons, but Mims is simply Chris Herndon 2.0, a couple of mediocre guys some became undeservedly hung up on after grading them on an excessively generous rookie curve.

Off the top of my head since Farrior? Santana Moss, Vilma, John Abraham (even though the Jets got Mangold as a result of the trade), Leonard Williams has been a better pass rusher with the Giants. 

[sirlancemehlot]

13 hours ago, rangerous said:

i see the 2020 draft as being a scatter shot.  there were so many positions on the team that needed upgrading it was pretty difficult to concentrate on offense or defense.  obviously trading back and picking up mims was a mistake and who knew clark was going to be injured so badly.  as for the rest, becton can still be a real great pick and davis seems to be improving.  hall is a keeper as is mann.  morgan? the book on darnold was probably already known so picking a qb in the 4th round may not have been such a bad move.

[jeremy2020]

Remember when everyone loved the 2020 draft class and Becton / Mims were set to be superstars before this season started? Now it's JDs 'mulligan' draft. Let's hope the 2021 class doesn't turn into a pumpkin at midnight too.

[Bleedin Green]

2 hours ago, maury77 said:

Off the top of my head since Farrior? Santana Moss, Vilma, John Abraham (even though the Jets got Mangold as a result of the trade), Leonard Williams has been a better pass rusher with the Giants. 

They were certainly successful after they left, but also among the Jets' very best players while on the team, considering Vilma, Abraham, and Williams all made the Pro Bowl during their time here, and Abraham was even an All-Pro.

That's a bit different than the idea of Jets busts going on to have success elsewhere, which historically has been very rare.  The team just happens to be quite efficient at often drafting players who suck regardless of where they go, or who coaches them.  Mims doesn't come close to comparing to any of those players mentioned to this point.  Becton is likely to be more of a health/conditioning concern than anything, so who knows what will come of that.

[Jet Nut]

13 hours ago, Big_Slick said:

It was obvious a LT was a necessity and WR needed help. It didn't matter who was coaching, the positions selected were needed (except for Morgan) but JD picked a bust in Mims and even the coaches are publicly questioning Becton.

 

Mims is a bust.  But thats on Mims, not on JD.  Mims has all the athletic ability in the world.  Size, speed and hands to be a productive player.  Doesnt even have to be a pro bowl player.  Just has to line up on side and thats an issue.  Nothing in his college career said he could be a contributing WR 

The pilling on with Becton, the new accusations and coaching NOW questioning him is out of control.  Youre right, we needed a LT and he was the best LT prospect left at 11.  Lets see what he does this year before labeling a player a bust because he had a knee keep him out of 2021

[#27TheDominator]

The interesting thing to me about the "scheme fit" argument is that some of they guys that seemed drafted to fit the prior scheme are the ones they seemed to be counting on.   Mims and Davis in particular.  I keep repeating that I don't see why Becton's ceiling was supposedly higher than Wirfs.  Cause he is huge?  Big ******* deal.  Wirfs may have had a better athletic profile than any tackle prospect ever. 

I am glad that these guys took the time and installed their system.  That they had the balls to do so.  Yes, it hurts to waste (another) year and it is a shame if some talent or wins could have been salvaged, but coming off a 2 win season is the time to do it.  Winning 5 or 6 games is inconsequential in the long run, but having things set up to plug and play games should be invaluable going forward.  

I don't see much to worry about with the guys they let go.  Leonard Williams has looked good, but he was a contract cut - he was gone unless they franchised him and did anybody want that during that 2020 debacle?  Anderson and Darnold looked good early, but I don't think anybody is pining over them.  The rest?  Herndon, Avery WIlliamson, Bless Austin, none of those guys did sh*t.  It probably is more a testament to our lack of talent than making the right choices.  

[Big_Slick]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

The pilling on with Becton, the new accusations and coaching NOW questioning him is out of control.  Youre right, we needed a LT and he was the best LT prospect left at 11.  Lets see what he does this year before labeling a player a bust because he had a knee keep him out of 2021

So I'm out of control because I call Becton a questionable pick and very likely a bust?

If that's what you think then put me on ignore.

 

[Claymation]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:35 AM, Big_Slick said:

Context please. Discussion was if Gase affected JD's picks.

And yes 2020 was a terrible draft.

 

The 2018 was a terrible draft.

2020 has 3 starters, and a situational pass rusher in Huff. Yes I know he was an undrafted Free Agent, but he is still apart of that draft class.

Was it a great draft...no, average would be my assessment.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Big_Slick said:

So I'm out of control because I call Becton a questionable pick and very likely a bust?

If that's what you think then put me on ignore.

 

Grow up. 
And yes,  maiming he’s most likely a bust aster one seaso. Is out of control.  

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

The interesting thing to me about the "scheme fit" argument is that some of they guys that seemed drafted to fit the prior scheme are the ones they seemed to be counting on.   Mims and Davis in particular.  I keep repeating that I don't see why Becton's ceiling was supposedly higher than Wirfs.  Cause he is huge?  Big ******* deal.  Wirfs may have had a better athletic profile than any tackle prospect ever. 

I am glad that these guys took the time and installed their system.  That they had the balls to do so.  Yes, it hurts to waste (another) year and it is a shame if some talent or wins could have been salvaged, but coming off a 2 win season is the time to do it.  Winning 5 or 6 games is inconsequential in the long run, but having things set up to plug and play games should be invaluable going forward.  

I don't see much to worry about with the guys they let go.  Leonard Williams has looked good, but he was a contract cut - he was gone unless they franchised him and did anybody want that during that 2020 debacle?  Anderson and Darnold looked good early, but I don't think anybody is pining over them.  The rest?  Herndon, Avery WIlliamson, Bless Austin, none of those guys did sh*t.  It probably is more a testament to our lack of talent than making the right choices.  

Becton’s 40 combined with his size got people excited.

[Sperm Edwards]

17 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

How much sarcasm really though?  Those destined for greatness elsewhere often gets claimed when folks want to fawn over a Jets' failure, but has there been anyone more recent than James Farrior where that actually happened?

We had to most recently hear from some about the pending greatness of Darnold in Carolina, and all saw how that worked out.  Becton might be a bit of a wait and see, primarily for health reasons, but Mims is simply Chris Herndon 2.0, a couple of mediocre guys some became undeservedly hung up on after grading them on an excessively generous rookie curve.

John Abraham.

But yeah, we'd hear it every offseason, especially when NE would pick up some one the Jets let go. Weeks of OMG now ____ is going to be a probowl player or _____ is going to resurrect his career. All those probowls & resurrections from players ranging from Victor Hobson to David Harris. 

While plenty here were salivating at dunking on the rest over Jamal Adams in Seattle, one of the 2-3 biggest regrets over the last 20 years since then is still probably Danny Woodhead. Nice player to have, but meh.

Mawae still had some really good years left in him, and it's very arguable the Jets were better off with Abraham + Mawae than Mangold + Bryan Thomas.

That's about it, though. Unless someone wants to still harp on about Pennington coming dangerously close to throwing 20 TD passes that one post-Jets season lol.

[artemusclyde]

On 2/20/2022 at 6:39 PM, doitny said:

we will see about that. if JD has another good draft like in 2021 then i think you have to give him a pass.

you can't screw the scheme. its better to have them fit it. look at Mims for example. he looked much better with Gase than Saleh. and he has had a hard time learning it. do you want to give Mims special plays just for him? then you have to do it for everyone. then you don't have a scheme.

we now have a zone blocking scheme. remember how everyone struggled early on with it but got better as the season went on? Becton who is a mauler and not from a zone blocking background struggled in camp. might be the reason he got injured. he was doing something he wasn't comfortable with.

remember Bill Parcells had his own guys. all the great coaches do. because they like their attitude and they fit their scheme.

i get what your saying about drafting good players. the thought that there so good they can learn and be good at any scheme. but thats not always the case. 

picking a OL who never zone blocked to do it here. he might not be good at it. or a Edge or LB who came from a 3-4 defense to play in our 4-3. he might not like doing that. it might not be to his strong suit. and there goes your Pro Bowl quality player down the tubes.

scheme fit matters

Becton literally came from a zone scheme out of college. 

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

John Abraham.

But yeah, we'd hear it every offseason, especially when NE would pick up some one the Jets let go. Weeks of OMG now ____ is going to be a probowl player or _____ is going to resurrect his career. All those probowls & resurrections from players ranging from Victor Hobson to David Harris. 

While plenty here were salivating at dunking on the rest over Jamal Adams in Seattle, one of the 2-3 biggest regrets over the last 20 years since then is still probably Danny Woodhead. Nice player to have, but meh.

Mawae still had some really good years left in him, and it's very arguable the Jets were better off with Abraham + Mawae than Mangold + Bryan Thomas.

That's about it, though. Unless someone wants to still harp on about Pennington coming dangerously close to throwing 20 TD passes that one post-Jets season lol.

How can you forget Chris Baker?!?!?!

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

How can you forget Chris Baker?!?!?!

I have the old

[68JET11]

On 2/21/2022 at 7:22 AM, 32EBoozer said:

I tend to agree with your theory on Gase. It is disappointing that JD would carry Gase’s water like that but remember when Gase walked out of the draft room on MacCagnan in protest of his handling of the 2019 draft?

That and getting the job due to Gase May have had JD trying to give Gase the “coin toss” honor between players valued equally. 

Com on Man... Us old farts don't have a clue what we're talking about. If JD knocks it out of the park again in 2022, like 2021... I guess we can have the last laugh... If not we'll just hide somewhere... lol

[68JET11]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:00 AM, kevinc855 said:

This is such a bad take. Did Adam Gase run into the draft room and beg JD to take Becton over Wirfs? Exactly 

JDs picks are JDs picks. Period 

Yep... cause nobody has ever heard of a GM and a HC getting together on their board and saying here's who we got at our pick unless he's gone, and then let's go with XXX.... It's always all the GM... I'm wondering if Parcells comes to mind when you're taking crap...

[Asymmetrical]

Demario Davis left, improved dramatically, came back and played well and was promptly allowed to walk again.