Becton's workout II

[Cyberjet]

The hell with Becton - what’s that guy in the background doing?

[Barton]

Something is just off with this Becton saga. Jets need to prepare as if he's not going to be the starter. If he steps up, great. If he doesnt, plan A was in place already. 

[southparkcpa]

25 minutes ago, Barton said:

Something is just off with this Becton saga. Jets need to prepare as if he's not going to be the starter. If he steps up, great. If he doesnt, plan A was in place already. 

I hate to agree... but I do.  The number of players drafted this high that don't perform to expectations rarely meet ecpectations 3-4 years later. I am sure some do and have but by in large, it's rare.

[kmnj]

When your plan is to build through the draft your first and second picks can’t bust out and even more amazing is  Joe is getting a pass for these terrible picks at a time when his team can’t win games - line is supposed to be joes expertise and he passed on the guy most said was the better pick at the time but people said Joe knows lineman well Joe does not and Joe is not a good judge of player motivation and character- what r the odds your two top picks are both soft and by most accounts lack motivation to practice and learn 

[Biggs]

Come into camp under 340 and see if he can catch a chicken.   The live chicken chase and catch should be part of the combine. 

[Bronx]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

Come into camp under 340 and see if he can catch a chicken.   The live chicken chase and catch should be part of the combine. 

Ok Rocky!

The bully and chicken sh*t version:

 

[Matt39]

2 hours ago, Barton said:

Something is just off with this Becton saga. Jets need to prepare as if he's not going to be the starter. If he steps up, great. If he doesnt, plan A was in place already. 

Yeah i feel like there’s potential with him to try and bring down the whole ship. He’s immature. Something had been off the entire time and it’s amazing how Douglas didn’t flag this before the draft. Mims too.

[Jet Nut]

18 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

We'll know when we see... and the core of our disagreement is I'm remembering Becky never returning from injury and you're taking two offseason photos - and both of us are imprinting our own inherent biases into our understanding. 

It's the "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THIS MAN!" tone that, to me, sounds more emotional than logical. Hence, why we disagree. 

I’m taking pictures and video that shows he’s in shape, I don’t care what he was doing in one still, clearly shows he’s not fat and lazy like you and others enjoy repeating over and over in spite of the obvious.  Then add in how long you think a knee injury should keep someone out because, you know all people are the same and all heal the same .  
‘And it’s the constant whining that he’s fat and lazy given the above that makes someone look emotional and tied to his dislike of the player, just trying to prove you’re right

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

I hate to agree... but I do.  The number of players drafted this high that don't perform to expectations rarely meet ecpectations 3-4 years later. I am sure some do and have but by in large, it's rare.

Except he did meet expectations as a raw, 21 year old rookie.

He didn’t meet them initially in camp the next year, when most of the line was also still struggling with the new blocking. Add then one day in one practice Lawson ate his lunch to get through a few times, while the fable grew to mythical levels now repeated (i.e. Lawson getting past him on every pass play all summer), Benton still didn’t seem too motivated to flip him and Fant (who was still fighting for a starting job himself at RT).

Then he gets his ankle rolled week 1. It’s convenient to forget that week the Jets’ other 4 starting linemen all still performed below adequate levels in protection that week. After the game a hyper-motivated (and fresh legs) Moses was the lone bright spot. They were all still inching along in what Kyle Shanahan recently claimed can take upwards of two seasons to get right because it’s hard to practice without a live, full DL running full speed in pads and they need live games to be a lot of the practice.

Anyway he gets his ankle rolled. He’s supposed to come back in a month or two and he never returns. No one’s happy about it.  Not the fans, not the coaches, and there are hints or leaks that he wasn’t doing his all to get back onto the field faster, like he thought it was just going to magically happen on its own or something). We’re all rightly put off by it.

I do think there’s also some reality to what we did discuss here after Thanksgiving — legitimate team thought to the idea he probably could’ve returned in Dec but the team held him out at that point (would be raw initially anyway; even harder now to practice without taking time away from starters; they were long since eliminated so they’re also weighing the risk-reward of him playing a couple games and in going from the gym to live opponents, getting re-injured in a meaningless game; and yeah, maybe also to motivate him to show them all more before they let him back — or maybe a bit of all of the above).

Anyway it’s not two terrible seasons out of two. He was considered very good for a rookie LT, overshadowed only by a fellow rookie playing RT, who got to play next to a far better RG all season, blocking for a QB who got the ball out in 2 1/4 seconds on average, and surely with better coaching as well.  It an even playing field, but he clearly was 2nd not 1st (though not 4th either).

I’m not certain he’s going to have a great year 3. For all I know behind the scenes they’ve had it with him already, though I think there’d have been leaks of them looking to trade him if that was the case, since there’ll clearly be a RT there for them in the draft. In that case, I’m still pissed but they’re probably doing the right thing. Anyway for me “not totally confident” isn’t enough and not the far more certain failure - and therefore the crisis situation - of starting GVR at RG again. Becton will be just 23 and has probowl/all-pro ability, has two more very cheap seasons left on his rookie contract, has shown that pro level defenders aren’t just too much for him to handle on the field, and if he returns to merely his rookie form it further frees up a high draft pick. The team is better off with him than already burning a high pick on a replacement, and if they take someone at #4 it’s so far just as likely it’s because Fant would be too much on a LT extension.

When you’re done with this let me know and I’ll release the next volume.

[BigRy56]

Wild how Becton is being called a bust when he had a great rookie season then got hurt. A bit of an overreaction I’d say

[rangerous]

12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except he did meet expectations as a raw, 21 year old rookie.

He didn’t meet them initially in camp the next year, when most of the line was also still struggling with the new blocking. Add then one day in one practice Lawson ate his lunch to get through a few times, while the fable grew to mythical levels now repeated (i.e. Lawson getting past him on every pass play all summer), Benton still didn’t seem too motivated to flip him and Fant (who was still fighting for a starting job himself at RT).

Then he gets his ankle rolled week 1. It’s convenient to forget that week the Jets’ other 4 starting linemen all still performed below adequate levels in protection that week. After the game a hyper-motivated (and fresh legs) Moses was the lone bright spot. They were all still inching along in what Kyle Shanahan recently claimed can take upwards of two seasons to get right because it’s hard to practice without a live, full DL running full speed in pads and they need live games to be a lot of the practice.

Anyway he gets his ankle rolled. He’s supposed to come back in a month or two and he never returns. No one’s happy about it.  Not the fans, not the coaches, and there are hints or leaks that he wasn’t doing his all to get back onto the field faster, like he thought it was just going to magically happen on its own or something). We’re all rightly put off by it.

I do think there’s also some reality to what we did discuss here after Thanksgiving — legitimate team thought to the idea he probably could’ve returned in Dec but the team held him out at that point (would be raw initially anyway; even harder now to practice without taking time away from starters; they were long since eliminated so they’re also weighing the risk-reward of him playing a couple games and in going from the gym to live opponents, getting re-injured in a meaningless game; and yeah, maybe also to motivate him to show them all more before they let him back — or maybe a bit of all of the above).

Anyway it’s not two terrible seasons out of two. He was considered very good for a rookie LT, overshadowed only by a fellow rookie playing RT, who got to play next to a far better RG all season, blocking for a QB who got the ball out in 2 1/4 seconds on average, and surely with better coaching as well.  It an even playing field, but he clearly was 2nd not 1st (though not 4th either).

I’m not certain he’s going to have a great year 3. For all I know behind the scenes they’ve had it with him already, though I think there’d have been leaks of them looking to trade him if that was the case, since there’ll clearly be a RT there for them in the draft. In that case, I’m still pissed but they’re probably doing the right thing. Anyway for me “not totally confident” isn’t enough and not the far more certain failure - and therefore the crisis situation - of starting GVR at RG again. Becton will be just 23 and has probowl/all-pro ability, has two more very cheap seasons left on his rookie contract, has shown that pro level defenders aren’t just too much for him to handle on the field, and if he returns to merely his rookie form it further frees up a high draft pick. The team is better off with him than already burning a high pick on a replacement, and if they take someone at #4 it’s so far just as likely it’s because Fant would be too much on a LT extension.

When you’re done with this let me know and I’ll release the next volume.

good points.  what hasn't been said is no matter which tackle spot he comes back to he'll be next to a really good guard.  avt on the left and now tomlinson on the right have really sealed up the middle.

[kmnj]

6 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Wild how Becton is being called a bust when he had a great rookie season then got hurt. A bit of an overreaction I’d say

Tristan Wirfs says hi

the guy joe should have drafted -u know the all pro guy.

what is wild is Joe's top two picks appear to be lazy and not willing to put the time in-what are the odds your top two picks both are being questioned about motivation and desire to play and Joe didnt pick up that on either of them

 

 

[BigRy56]

Just now, kmnj said:

Tristan Wirfs says hi

the guy joe should have drafted -u know the all pro guy.

what is wild is Joe's top two picks appear to be lazy and not willing to put the time in-what are the odds your top two picks both are being questioned about motivation and desire to play and Joe didnt pick up that on either of them

 

 

Just because Wirfs has been better doesn’t mean Becton is a bust. He had a very good rookie year then got hurt early in his second year

[JoJoTownsell1]

22 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Wild how Becton is being called a bust when he had a great rookie season then got hurt. A bit of an overreaction I’d say

There is a fine line between questioning a player's durability/toughness and flat out calling him a bust at 22. There are OL prospects in this years draft that are also 22. At least Becton has proven, when healthy as a rookie, that he can dominate in the NFL for stretches.

[OilfieldJet]

What you are saying is that he still needs to prove himself. All the excuses, reasons, justifications, rationalizations mean nothing until, and unless, we shows up t be that guy in 2022-23.

It's too big a risk. Draft Icky at #4 have enjoy the luxury of 1) being right when Becton fails, or 2) being able to trade, platoon or other wise benefit from have 3 tier 1 OT's on the roster when he returns to be that guy.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

16 hours ago, Maxman said:

This Becton hate is comical. People acting like they know he is done. He look okay as a rookie and got rolled up on his 2nd year. He didn't pull a hammy. He had a contact injury.

The thought it wasn't that bad and he missed the year.

This is a big year for Becton but he still has a shot at being a very good Jet. I hope he battles it out with Fant and personally I would like to see Becton on the right side. Less money for his second contract and Fant is a better pass blocker, so keep him on the left. Especially with a 2nd year QB.

Becton can do some damage on the right and this line should be really good without drafting a tackle at 4.

More worried about his lack of maturity vs his ability on the field. He's a legit 12 yr old in a mans body. Whether that holds him back or not who knows. 

[JoJoTownsell1]

19 minutes ago, OilfieldJet said:

What you are saying is that he still needs to prove himself. All the excuses, reasons, justifications, rationalizations mean nothing until, and unless, we shows up t be that guy in 2022-23.

It's too big a risk. Draft Icky at #4 have enjoy the luxury of 1) being right when Becton fails, or 2) being able to trade, platoon or other wise benefit from have 3 tier 1 OT's on the roster when he returns to be that guy.

If we draft Icky, I would bet a Becton trade happens soon after. You could have all 3 compete for the 2 jobs, but I would guess JD would prefer to have more draft capital to play with. He also doesn't want to have to trade Becton AFTER he gets benched for Fant/Icky. 

[THE BARON]

9 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

If we draft Icky, I would bet a Becton trade happens soon after. You could have all 3 compete for the 2 jobs, but I would guess JD would prefer to have more draft capital to play with. He also doesn't want to have to trade Becton AFTER he gets benched for Fant/Icky. 

I WANT Icky.  He's been my pick all along.  Becton's head is gone. Or more to the point, was never there to begin with.  Icky is the best player in the draft. There is NO Becton.  Not only does Icky have the physical tools, he is a major character/leadership pick.  This is a football player.  A player that will be part of your teams core foundation in every way.  THIS would be the type of player Mangini would pick.  NEVER EVER let a player like this get away.  I also feel the same way about Sauce, but I would not take him at 4, as I would Icky.   

If JD wants to show me that he's *got it*, he will do so with the Icky pick at number four.  A bonus would be a man's admission of a mistake with the trade of Becton.  

If he manages to get Icky and Sauce, I will build a JD shrine on my front lawn. 

[Scoop24]

21 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I WANT Icky.  He's been my pick all along.  Becton's head is gone. Or more to the point, was never there to begin with.  Icky is the best player in the draft. There is NO Becton.  Not only does Icky have the physical tools, he is a major character/leadership pick.  This is a football player.  A player that will be part of your teams core foundation in every way.  THIS would be the type of player Mangini would pick.  NEVER EVER let a player like this get away.  I also feel the same way about Sauce, but I would not take him at 4, as I would Icky.   

If JD wants to show me that he's *got it*, he will do so with the Icky pick at number four.  A bonus would be a man's admission of a mistake with the trade of Becton.  

If he manages to get Icky and Sauce, I will build a JD shrine on my front lawn. 

 Literally no one has said this not sure why your trying to peg him as a  headcase.
 

In fact from jd to saleh to duke have all  said Becton been working hard so far this off-season.  Jets might still take icky . But im not 100% sold  he is  Becton’s replacement especially if plays like we know he can. Fant wants a huge deal. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I’m taking pictures and video that shows he’s in shape, I don’t care what he was doing in one still, clearly shows he’s not fat and lazy like you and others enjoy repeating over and over in spite of the obvious.  Then add in how long you think a knee injury should keep someone out because, you know all people are the same and all heal the same .  
‘And it’s the constant whining that he’s fat and lazy given the above that makes someone look emotional and tied to his dislike of the player, just trying to prove you’re right

The old "NO, YOU'RE EMOTIONAL!" defense.

[southparkcpa]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except he did meet expectations as a raw, 21 year old rookie.

He didn’t meet them initially in camp the next year, when most of the line was also still struggling with the new blocking. Add then one day in one practice Lawson ate his lunch to get through a few times, while the fable grew to mythical levels now repeated (i.e. Lawson getting past him on every pass play all summer), Benton still didn’t seem too motivated to flip him and Fant (who was still fighting for a starting job himself at RT).

Then he gets his ankle rolled week 1. It’s convenient to forget that week the Jets’ other 4 starting linemen all still performed below adequate levels in protection that week. After the game a hyper-motivated (and fresh legs) Moses was the lone bright spot. They were all still inching along in what Kyle Shanahan recently claimed can take upwards of two seasons to get right because it’s hard to practice without a live, full DL running full speed in pads and they need live games to be a lot of the practice.

Anyway he gets his ankle rolled. He’s supposed to come back in a month or two and he never returns. No one’s happy about it.  Not the fans, not the coaches, and there are hints or leaks that he wasn’t doing his all to get back onto the field faster, like he thought it was just going to magically happen on its own or something). We’re all rightly put off by it.

I do think there’s also some reality to what we did discuss here after Thanksgiving — legitimate team thought to the idea he probably could’ve returned in Dec but the team held him out at that point (would be raw initially anyway; even harder now to practice without taking time away from starters; they were long since eliminated so they’re also weighing the risk-reward of him playing a couple games and in going from the gym to live opponents, getting re-injured in a meaningless game; and yeah, maybe also to motivate him to show them all more before they let him back — or maybe a bit of all of the above).

Anyway it’s not two terrible seasons out of two. He was considered very good for a rookie LT, overshadowed only by a fellow rookie playing RT, who got to play next to a far better RG all season, blocking for a QB who got the ball out in 2 1/4 seconds on average, and surely with better coaching as well.  It an even playing field, but he clearly was 2nd not 1st (though not 4th either).

I’m not certain he’s going to have a great year 3. For all I know behind the scenes they’ve had it with him already, though I think there’d have been leaks of them looking to trade him if that was the case, since there’ll clearly be a RT there for them in the draft. In that case, I’m still pissed but they’re probably doing the right thing. Anyway for me “not totally confident” isn’t enough and not the far more certain failure - and therefore the crisis situation - of starting GVR at RG again. Becton will be just 23 and has probowl/all-pro ability, has two more very cheap seasons left on his rookie contract, has shown that pro level defenders aren’t just too much for him to handle on the field, and if he returns to merely his rookie form it further frees up a high draft pick. The team is better off with him than already burning a high pick on a replacement, and if they take someone at #4 it’s so far just as likely it’s because Fant would be too much on a LT extension.

When you’re done with this let me know and I’ll release the next volume.

Id rather read War and Peace....  it would be faster.

[Sperm Edwards]

14 minutes ago, OilfieldJet said:

What you are saying is that he still needs to prove himself. All the excuses, reasons, justifications, rationalizations mean nothing until, and unless, we shows up t be that guy in 2022-23.

It's too big a risk. Draft Icky at #4 have enjoy the luxury of 1) being right when Becton fails, or 2) being able to trade, platoon or other wise benefit from have 3 tier 1 OT's on the roster when he returns to be that guy.

Except it's really not.

It's certainly not the kind of risk that can only be mitigated by burning the 4th pick in the draft on what's more likely to be drafting the team's third starting LT. If you're that worried, then you sign a slightly higher-priced depth veteran and use the #4 pick on an actual hole on the team -- a hole that takes $20MM+ per year for a veteran (not to mention trading to get that veteran in the first place). 

If the team thinks Becton is a lost cause? That'd be one thing; they see more than we do with him (both good and bad). 

If they think Fant is going to demand $20MM/year, and he's not worth that based on his lone above average season in pass blocking, which was still at best average in run-blocking, and misses 2+ games every year himself? That'd be another reason, but understand the caveat is they'll probably get nothing in return, unless there's a special set of events (Fant's out for 2-3 weeks with a minor injury by early October, and both Becton and a rookie look great over those few games without him). 

Absent those things, no it's not too big of a risk to draft a non-OT at #4. Go pay old Jason Peters twice what anyone else is offering, and there's your risk mitigation. Never mind even at 40 he's still probably better, stepping right in, than any rookie tackle will perform in our OZ-heavy blocking.

[derp]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except it's really not.

It's certainly not the kind of risk that can only be mitigated by burning the 4th pick in the draft on what's more likely to be drafting the team's third starting LT. If you're that worried, then you sign a slightly higher-priced depth veteran and use the #4 pick on an actual hole on the team -- a hole that takes $20MM+ per year for a veteran (not to mention trading to get that veteran in the first place). 

If the team thinks Becton is a lost cause? That'd be one thing; they see more than we do with him (both good and bad). 

If they think Fant is going to demand $20MM/year, and he's not worth that based on his lone above average season in pass blocking, which was still at best average in run-blocking, and misses 2+ games every year himself? That'd be another reason, but understand the caveat is they'll probably get nothing in return, unless there's a special set of events (Fant's out for 2-3 weeks with a minor injury by early October, and both Becton and a rookie look great over those few games without him). 

Absent those things, no it's not too big of a risk to draft a non-OT at #4. Go pay old Jason Peters twice what anyone else is offering, and there's your risk mitigation. Never mind even at 40 he's still probably better, stepping right in, than any rookie tackle will perform in our OZ-heavy blocking.

Obviously if the Jets want to protect Zach Wilson they need to take an offensive tackle who's a better run blocker than pass blocker 4th overall as an insurance policy for the two starting caliber tackles on the team.

Not like teams can find a free agent who could adequately fill the RT role for a whole season in June.

Do wish they'd extend Fant already.

[THE BARON]

3 hours ago, Scoop24 said:

 Literally no one has said this not sure why your trying to peg him as a  headcase.
 

In fact from jd to saleh to duke have all  said Becton been working hard so far this off-season.  Jets might still take icky . But im not 100% sold  he is  Becton’s replacement especially if plays like we know he can. Fant wants a huge deal. 

Not suggesting a personalty disorder or psychosis.  Maturity issues go hand in hand with commitment issues.  Didn't you ever hear anyone say that "his/her head just isn't in the game"???

And for what the coaches are saying.  You know how that goes.

Let's see what goes on draft day.

I promise I wont say "I told you so" if they drafty Ickey.

[OilfieldJet]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except it's really not.

It's certainly not the kind of risk that can only be mitigated by burning the 4th pick in the draft on what's more likely to be drafting the team's third starting LT. If you're that worried, then you sign a slightly higher-priced depth veteran and use the #4 pick on an actual hole on the team -- a hole that takes $20MM+ per year for a veteran (not to mention trading to get that veteran in the first place). 

If the team thinks Becton is a lost cause? That'd be one thing; they see more than we do with him (both good and bad). 

If they think Fant is going to demand $20MM/year, and he's not worth that based on his lone above average season in pass blocking, which was still at best average in run-blocking, and misses 2+ games every year himself? That'd be another reason, but understand the caveat is they'll probably get nothing in return, unless there's a special set of events (Fant's out for 2-3 weeks with a minor injury by early October, and both Becton and a rookie look great over those few games without him). 

Absent those things, no it's not too big of a risk to draft a non-OT at #4. Go pay old Jason Peters twice what anyone else is offering, and there's your risk mitigation. Never mind even at 40 he's still probably better, stepping right in, than any rookie tackle will perform in our OZ-heavy blocking.

We disagree on priorities. 

[Sperm Edwards]

11 minutes ago, OilfieldJet said:

We disagree on priorities. 

I guess so. At #4 I'd like them to fill an unfilled spot (or a spot filled with a low-ceiling stopgap). 

The OL isn't the whole team, and only a team desperate for a LT - which isn't the Jets, who already have two LT starters - should be drafting OL at #4 overall. 

The Jets need a little more depth; not using its prime draft pick on a "just in case" starter. 

If the team decides Becton's a lost cause, I'll accept that as good enough. Fan worries about Becton in March aren't actual worries, though.

[Jet Nut]

On 3/20/2022 at 3:23 PM, RedBeardedSavage said:

We'll know when we see... and the core of our disagreement is I'm remembering Becky never returning from injury and you're taking two offseason photos - and both of us are imprinting our own inherent biases into our understanding. 

It's the "HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THIS MAN!" tone that, to me, sounds more emotional than logical. Hence, why we disagree. 

 

6 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I’m taking pictures and video that shows he’s in shape, I don’t care what he was doing in one still, clearly shows he’s not fat and lazy like you and others enjoy repeating over and over in spite of the obvious.  Then add in how long you think a knee injury should keep someone out because, you know all people are the same and all heal the same .  
‘And it’s the constant whining that he’s fat and lazy given the above that makes someone look emotional and tied to his dislike of the player, just trying to prove you’re right

 

So your use of the word, the word I repeated it works better for your over the top whining but I'm not allowed to use it to make fun of yo?  Hes a hint, if youre going to complain about the wording of someones post, make sure theyre not making fun of you because you used that same wording.  Using it as a lame assed DEFENSE ealrier.  

You really couldn't have failed any more here.  LOL

 

[Untouchable]

8 hours ago, Barton said:

Something is just off with this Becton saga. Jets need to prepare as if he's not going to be the starter. If he steps up, great. If he doesnt, plan A was in place already. 

One of the things Douglas should really do with some of the remaining cap space is bring in a solid veteran swing tackle like Billy Turner or Cornelius Lucas instead of relying on guys like McDermott and Edoga.

[OilfieldJet]

15 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I guess so. At #4 I'd like them to fill an unfilled spot (or a spot filled with a low-ceiling stopgap). 

The OL isn't the whole team, and only a team desperate for a LT - which isn't the Jets, who already have two LT starters - should be drafting OL at #4 overall. 

The Jets need a little more depth; not using its prime draft pick on a "just in case" starter. 

If the team decides Becton's a lost cause, I'll accept that as good enough. Fan worries about Becton in March aren't actual worries, though.

This is true, we are not desperate for a LT (see the Giants). Since FA, my priorities have shifted for sure. I only know that I want a premium WR in Round 1. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

41 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

So your use of the word, the word I repeated it works better for your over the top whining but I'm not allowed to use it to make fun of yo?  Hes a hint, if youre going to complain about the wording of someones post, make sure theyre not making fun of you because you used that same wording.  Using it as a lame assed DEFENSE ealrier.  

You really couldn't have failed any more here.  LOL

 

You're allowed to say whatever you want? And so am I... about Becton... right? 

So... we good?

Or is the only way this "Dormammu, I've come to bargain" moment between us going to end is if I, like you, see one photo of Mekhi Becton doing a rather pedestrian exercise and come to the conclusion that the man has absolutely no weight, effort or professionalism issues; He never has and never will. 

[Fantasy Island]

On 3/19/2022 at 11:54 AM, Bronx said:

Show what you got!

Here is a pic of my calf muscle 

[Jet Nut]

45 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

You're allowed to say whatever you want? And so am I... about Becton... right? 

So... we good?

Or is the only way this "Dormammu, I've come to bargain" moment between us going to end is if I, like you, see one photo of Mekhi Becton doing a rather pedestrian exercise and come to the conclusion that the man has absolutely no weight, effort or professionalism issues; He never has and never will. 

The use of EMOTIONAL, what happened?  Caught by you’re own words?

What are you onto now?  WTF are you talking about, lol

[freestater]

21 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except it's really not.

It's certainly not the kind of risk that can only be mitigated by burning the 4th pick in the draft on what's more likely to be drafting the team's third starting LT. If you're that worried, then you sign a slightly higher-priced depth veteran and use the #4 pick on an actual hole on the team -- a hole that takes $20MM+ per year for a veteran (not to mention trading to get that veteran in the first place). 

If the team thinks Becton is a lost cause? That'd be one thing; they see more than we do with him (both good and bad). 

If they think Fant is going to demand $20MM/year, and he's not worth that based on his lone above average season in pass blocking, which was still at best average in run-blocking, and misses 2+ games every year himself? That'd be another reason, but understand the caveat is they'll probably get nothing in return, unless there's a special set of events (Fant's out for 2-3 weeks with a minor injury by early October, and both Becton and a rookie look great over those few games without him). 

Absent those things, no it's not too big of a risk to draft a non-OT at #4. Go pay old Jason Peters twice what anyone else is offering, and there's your risk mitigation. Never mind even at 40 he's still probably better, stepping right in, than any rookie tackle will perform in our OZ-heavy blocking.

How high would you be willing to spend a pick on OT? Trotting Connor McDermott out there is a tragedy waiting to happen. Definitely need to bolster our depth. 

[Sperm Edwards]

17 minutes ago, freestater said:

How high would you be willing to spend a pick on OT? Trotting Connor McDermott out there is a tragedy waiting to happen. Definitely need to bolster our depth. 

I'd sooner grab a better veteran -- same rationale as teams "buying" a draft pick. You can always cut or restructure other players to create more cap room in a pinch; you can't just create more draft picks (let alone top 10 or top 4 ones). Philosophically, I wouldn't burn a high pick on a roster spot I can fill with a $5MM or less veteran, and a top backup OT isn't even a >$5MM/year investment. 

So... in the draft?

OL my higher draft priority is center, but still not super-early since we already have one who's not stopping the team from adding anyone else this year. IMO try drafting one in round 4 (+/- a round). If he looks good this summer or by the end of the season, then that removes an 8-figure starter (or whatever it'd cost to extend McGovern), replacing it with a really cheap one, and without burning a premium pick we should be using on much higher-dollar veteran positions that friggin' center (i.e. cost of adding a good or great veteran, if even available). 

After that I'm ok with also taking a shot on a tackle, but honestly the team just needs either depth this year or maybe a future-year starter at RT not necessarily LT (longer-term LT will be either Fant or Becton; lofty fantasy/keyboard-GM plans aside, I think it's foolish to plan to cut ties with both within the upcoming 2-3 seasons). 

Therefore in terms of drafting a tackle, what'd that come to, roughly round 4 or later?

If you want better than McDermott insurance for this season - which I absolutely do as well; imo for this year's needs he's an OT4 not an OT3 - then there are still veterans out there I've mentioned who can play, and who are cheap & wouldn't lock us into multi-year guarantees/investments we'll probably want out of earlier (i.e. these signings for an OT3 job don't get in the way of adding another higher-end starter with those resources), and who also wouldn't be tragic if needed to start for several games or more like Moses did (since we all agree Fant and Becton, while easily good enough to start, both have multi-game-missing concerns). Nor would they end up being wastes of serious resources to relegate to being a backup at T or G this year.

A higher pick (round 1 in particular) should be for an additional starting position to fill, not merely insurance of a position we've already filled. If they do take a tackle at #4 it wouldn't surprise me at all that the person whose spot he's going to take is Fant's not Becton's (i.e. if preliminary extension talks have Fant's agent demanding $22MM/year or something, which he isn't worth and hasn't yet earned anyway).

Also every year we hear how this or that tackle prospect is a sure thing and he'll man the position for 10 years blah blah blah. But it could be one of them just doesn't move well enough for LT (like Mike Williams and plenty others); and maybe the other is ultimately better-suited for guard (like Scherff, who lost out to Moses for Washington's RT job as a rookie, then-drafted by a team with a similar situation with its LT, who only had one year left on his contract; he got that extension only after Scherff proved to be the team's distant 3rd-best tackle and was moved inside like many thought he'd have to. The problem is we don't have any open guard slots to do that, and maybe he's no more a pro tackle than AVT). Are either of these top 2 tackles as highly-rated as Leonard Davis, Mike Williams, Robert Gallery, Levi Brown, Jason Smith, Luke Joeckel, Greg Robinson, ...? Best of this bunch was Davis, who wasn't anything special until he was almost 30, after his second team moved him from LT back to RG.

If it's insurance for this season because of a combo of Becton-anxiety and Fant's health over 17 games, then go sign a veteran backup like every playoff/superbowl team does. If we want to use 1st rounders to sit on the bench for a year every time, then keep trading down out of the top 10 into the bottom 10 first, and pick up a bunch more draft capital in the process. Top 10 is for now-starters, not depth.

[freestater]

57 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'd sooner grab a better veteran -- same rationale as teams "buying" a draft pick. You can always cut or restructure other players to create more cap room in a pinch; you can't just create more draft picks (let alone top 10 or top 4 ones). Philosophically, I wouldn't burn a high pick on a roster spot I can fill with a $5MM or less veteran, and a top backup OT isn't even a >$5MM/year investment. 

So... in the draft?

OL my higher draft priority is center, but still not super-early since we already have one who's not stopping the team from adding anyone else this year. IMO try drafting one in round 4 (+/- a round). If he looks good this summer or by the end of the season, then that removes an 8-figure starter (or whatever it'd cost to extend McGovern), replacing it with a really cheap one, and without burning a premium pick we should be using on much higher-dollar veteran positions that friggin' center (i.e. cost of adding a good or great veteran, if even available). 

After that I'm ok with also taking a shot on a tackle, but honestly the team just needs either depth this year or maybe a future-year starter at RT not necessarily LT (longer-term LT will be either Fant or Becton; lofty fantasy/keyboard-GM plans aside, I think it's foolish to plan to cut ties with both within the upcoming 2-3 seasons). 

Therefore in terms of drafting a tackle, what'd that come to, roughly round 4 or later?

If you want better than McDermott insurance for this season - which I absolutely do as well; imo for this year's needs he's an OT4 not an OT3 - then there are still veterans out there I've mentioned who can play, and who are cheap & wouldn't lock us into multi-year guarantees/investments we'll probably want out of earlier (i.e. these signings for an OT3 job don't get in the way of adding another higher-end starter with those resources), and who also wouldn't be tragic if needed to start for several games or more like Moses did (since we all agree Fant and Becton, while easily good enough to start, both have multi-game-missing concerns). Nor would they end up being wastes of serious resources to relegate to being a backup at T or G this year.

A higher pick (round 1 in particular) should be for an additional starting position to fill, not merely insurance of a position we've already filled. If they do take a tackle at #4 it wouldn't surprise me at all that the person whose spot he's going to take is Fant's not Becton's (i.e. if preliminary extension talks have Fant's agent demanding $22MM/year or something, which he isn't worth and hasn't yet earned anyway).

Also every year we hear how this or that tackle prospect is a sure thing and he'll man the position for 10 years blah blah blah. But it could be one of them just doesn't move well enough for LT (like Mike Williams and plenty others); and maybe the other is ultimately better-suited for guard (like Scherff, who lost out to Moses for Washington's RT job as a rookie, then-drafted by a team with a similar situation with its LT, who only had one year left on his contract; he got that extension only after Scherff proved to be the team's distant 3rd-best tackle and was moved inside like many thought he'd have to. The problem is we don't have any open guard slots to do that, and maybe he's no more a pro tackle than AVT). Are either of these top 2 tackles as highly-rated as Leonard Davis, Mike Williams, Robert Gallery, Levi Brown, Jason Smith, Luke Joeckel, Greg Robinson, ...? Best of this bunch was Davis, who wasn't anything special until he was almost 30, after his second team moved him from LT back to RG.

If it's insurance for this season because of a combo of Becton-anxiety and Fant's health over 17 games, then go sign a veteran backup like every playoff/superbowl team does. If we want to use 1st rounders to sit on the bench for a year every time, then keep trading down out of the top 10 into the bottom 10 first, and pick up a bunch more draft capital in the process. Top 10 is for now-starters, not depth.

Oh, I agree with that. I want a T before we're done with round 3 though. If we could trade back in 2 and get Raimann from Cent Mich, I'd be stoked. It would be great for a rookie to get a year in as a backup to gather the skills to contribute in this scheme. The addition of Tomlinson allows us to take a guy a little deeper, who still may become a long term starter (post 2023)