Scouts take on Brock Bowers - merged

[slats]

28 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Also are we totally not keeping in mind he did get injured to finish the year?

Pretty sure it’s being completely ignored that he still has lingering hamstring issues here in April, because that’s never a concern at all. 

[C Mart]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

They are both listed as about the same size.  6'3" 240ish.  Some sites list LaPorta 6'4" but it's close.

Bowers posted a 4.53 on his pro day.  LaPorta posted a 4.59 at the Combine.

Other than that?...

Last week?  He didn't run last week

[UntouchableCrew]

54 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Why isn’t tight end a “game changing” position?

There were three great tight ends in the conference championships this year. How many WRs of the same caliber?

Does he even qualify as a TE? He's undersized, can't block, doesn't outjump DBs for the ball. The scouting report in this thread says he's not a three down player. He seems like he projects as some combination of an H-back and big slot receiver that is a power runner in space. The claims that he's a difference maker as an athlete are based around whispers of what people heard he's done.

I have no doubt he's a good football player and if he goes to a team with a creative offensive mind I think he has the chance to be a very good pro. But he was largely schemed open and ran away from college LBs in the open field. I don't think he'll be able to do what he did in college in the NFL.

I'd be totally onboard with drafting someone with his profile in the second and third round -- where all the top TEs get drafted anyway. But at 10 overall? No shot.

More succinctly -- I'd be shocked if he ended up being a good pick at 10th overall by the New York Jets.

[Rochester Jets]

I'm sure Bowers will be an excellent player in the NFL.  I just don't want him on this team with an offense led and organized by Saleh and Hackett.  They couldn't scheme anyone open to save their lives last year.  How are they all of the sudden going to be able to with Bowers which apparently is how Georgia utilized him?  Maybe Rodgers can figure it out?

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Kansas State tight end looks like the better player to me, and he tested off of the charts.

 

5. BEN SINNOTT, KANSAS STATE

Sinnot’s versatility is often referenced in his draft evaluation profiles, as he's lined up in-line (66%), in the slot (20%) and out of the backfield (13%) — but mostly because he spent so much more time out of the backfield as a full back than any other tight end in this class at 185 offensive snaps. Sinnott spent a lot of his time from that alignment as a run blocker (77%) but didn’t earn quite as strong grades as expected, ranking ninth in this class in career PFF run-blocking grade (52.0) and 12th in career PFF offensive grade from that alignment (50.9). 

Sinnott does own an adequate 77.6 PFF receiving grade (64th percentile) though there might not be enough long-term upside for fantasy purposes to get too excited about. One of his red flags came when calculating these player’s yards per target over expectations (YPTOE) and Sinnott dropped in overall ranking from actual yards per target (seventh in this class) to 10th when making those adjustments since he had the highest expected yards per target, meaning favorable scenarios, and didn’t perform well enough relative to his actual outcomes

[C Mart]

56 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

We all would.  Why is he hiding this scary speed from everyone?

Also via McGinn

Four scouts were asked to estimate Harrison’s 40 time. One said 4.45, another said “low 4.4s,” a third said 4.43 and a fourth said 4.56.

“We’ve had this discussion for three years about this,” an NFC executive said. “All skill positions will begin to decrease the measureables of the combine and the workout. It’s called modern-day athletes. It’s what they do.”

[Claymation]

2 minutes ago, C Mart said:

He slipped up..It happens.  McGinn has been writing about the NFL for 40 yrs. And McGinn isn't doing the scouting. He's getting takes from scouts throughout the NFL.

He cited a scout who thinks he runs a 4.8 forty, when there is data that says otherwise is not sound scouting.

If I am going to put my name on something I sure as hell am going to make sure the information in my report is accurate. If you are trying to come across as a Subject Matter Expert, you better do a better job researching what you are writing.

[Claymation]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Does he even qualify as a TE? He's undersized, can't block, doesn't outjump DBs for the ball. The scouting report in this thread says he's not a three down player. He seems like he projects as some combination of an H-back and big slot receiver that is a power runner in space. The claims that he's a difference maker as an athlete are based around whispers of what people heard he's done.

I have no doubt he's a good football player and if he goes to a team with a creative offensive mind I think he has the chance to be a very good pro. But he was largely schemed open and ran away from college LBs in the open field. I don't think he'll be able to do what he did in college in the NFL.

More succinctly -- I'd be shocked if he ended up being a good pick at 10th overall by the New York Jets.

He has a 40" vertical

[C Mart]

Just now, C Mart said:

Also via McGinn

Four scouts were asked to estimate Harrison’s 40 time. One said 4.45, another said “low 4.4s,” a third said 4.43 and a fourth said 4.56.

“We’ve had this discussion for three years about this,” an NFC executive said. “All skill positions will begin to decrease the measureables of the combine and the workout. It’s called modern-day athletes. It’s what they do.”

The best thing about McGinn's write ups every year for the draft is he gets 3-4 scouts takes on the top prospects.  The difference in scouts takes on a player can be 180 degrees different. Which explains why the hit rate on even the top 10 picks is around 50%.  It's staggering.

[C Mart]

2 minutes ago, Claymation said:

He cited a scout who thinks he runs a 4.8 forty, when there is data that says otherwise is not sound scouting.

If I am going to put my name on something I sure as hell am going to make sure the information in my report is accurate. If you are trying to come across as a Subject Matter Expert, you better do a better job researching what you are writing.

I think it's good that he does put that info in...See my above post. 

Again - he's been doing this for 40 yrs.

[Adoni Beast]

50 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Yet you’re against fuaga?  I think he’s what the jets need

I'm only against him because I think he is a guard and we already traded up for AVT and if he stays healthy will be our long-term solution at RG. You can find quality guards in middle rounds and via free agency pretty much every year so I don't think that position is worth the 10th pick honestly.

[Gastineau Lives]

1 minute ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Does he even qualify as a TE? He's undersized, can't block,

This is where i stopped reading.

[Matt39]

5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

 

 

5. BEN SINNOTT, KANSAS STATE

Sinnot’s versatility is often referenced in his draft evaluation profiles, as he's lined up in-line (66%), in the slot (20%) and out of the backfield (13%) — but mostly because he spent so much more time out of the backfield as a full back than any other tight end in this class at 185 offensive snaps. Sinnott spent a lot of his time from that alignment as a run blocker (77%) but didn’t earn quite as strong grades as expected, ranking ninth in this class in career PFF run-blocking grade (52.0) and 12th in career PFF offensive grade from that alignment (50.9). 

Sinnott does own an adequate 77.6 PFF receiving grade (64th percentile) though there might not be enough long-term upside for fantasy purposes to get too excited about. One of his red flags came when calculating these player’s yards per target over expectations (YPTOE) and Sinnott dropped in overall ranking from actual yards per target (seventh in this class) to 10th when making those adjustments since he had the highest expected yards per target, meaning favorable scenarios, and didn’t perform well enough relative to his actual outcomes

Yes. I think he’s on par with Bowers and won’t require a first round pick. I’m comfortable with guys I like/don’t like in the draft. 

[Larz]

Kelce ran a 4.61 40 and his worst combine performance was short shuttle and 3 cone 

 

yall just making sh*t up about bowers now. 
 

just admit you think he can’t be good because Kyle Brady lol. 

[rbstern]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

Bowers has not jumped off of the screen for me. I’m just one guy though. But I feel like I’ve watched enough football to make that conclusion. Just watching vs the Kansas State tight end, and the KSU kid looks bigger, faster, stronger.

 

If you think Sinnott is faster, you seriously need a trip to the eye doctor.  He looks like he's running with cement shoes, compared to Bowers.

I believe Sinnott is going to be a decent, prototypical NFL TE.   He's nothing like Bowers in terms of explosive offensive potential.

[UntouchableCrew]

4 minutes ago, Claymation said:

He has a 40" vertical

Maybe he does -- I didn't say he wasn't a great athlete, even though he didn't really to much testing at the combine or his pro day. Just saying his game at Georgia wasn't predicated on high pointing the ball down the field against smaller DBs.

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, rbstern said:

 

If you think Sinnott is faster, you seriously need a trip to the eye doctor.  He looks like he's running with cement shoes, compared to Bowers.

I believe Sinnott is going to be a decent, prototypical NFL TE.   He's nothing like Bowers in terms of explosive offensive potential.

We will see. Bowers at 4.6 is fine. It’s more the explosion drills for tight ends that interest me anyways.

[UntouchableCrew]

6 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

This is where i stopped reading.

Truth hurts.

[Untouchable]

19 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Why would you make a top 10 pick based on what a 40 year old QB who has taken four healthy snaps for the team "favors?"

Because we go as far as he goes

We’re back to staring into an endless void at the position as soon as he’s gone.

Some of you guys are so against taking a TE at #10 that you’d rather take a one trick pony wideout who our QB will actively avoid.

Many of these OT’s and WR’s that people are flaunting right now are going to suck. It’s just the way the draft goes. Hell, 3/4 of the top OL in this class are projected to shift inside in the pros.

Or we could take the dude who is considered by many neck and neck with Harrison as the safest player in the draft, dominated the toughest conference in college football since he was a true freshman, can make an immediate impact in addition to being a longterm focal point of the offense, has all of the intangible qualities you look for, etc.

But we don’t want that because…TE isn’t a “premium” position?

Someone brought up a great point earlier. Detroit just got over the hump and came within minutes of a Super Bowl appearance. And what was a big part of it? Drafting a RB, an off-ball LB and a TE in the Top 34 picks a year ago.

That’s about as non-premium as it gets and I bet they wouldn’t change a damn thing about it.

[Greenseed4]

1 hour ago, WhartonJet said:

I'd like you to admit you were talking out of your *ss saying LaPorta is bigger and faster.  No comment on their identical height/weight?

On Brock Bowers:

"Boasts elite level athleticism, clocking a 4.5 40 as a sophomore and a 40-inch vertical. Has the speed to burn a linebacker and separate from a defensive back. "

Meanwhile, Dawgnation.com is reporting that Bowers ran a 4.53 40-yard dash.  That would also be faster than Travis Kelce (4.61), Rob Gronkowski (4.68) and Sam LaPorta (4.59). It's only .01 away from what George Kittle ran (4.52) during the pre-draft process.

Is sign up for this

on edit: it’s Sam LaPorta rookie highlights.
He finished the year with 86 rec for 889 yards, 10 TDs

[Greenseed4]

1 hour ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Dude. LaPorta is two lbs heavier and ran a 4.59. Bowers is faster than that. Of course you tried to make a guy that ran a 4.68 faster than him too so 
 

Corum did run at the combine, and he was clocked at a 4.53, if that means anything.

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Because we go as far as he goes

We’re back to staring into an endless void at the position as soon as he’s gone.

Some of you guys are so against taking a TE at #10 that you’d rather take a one trick pony wideout who our QB will actively avoid.

Many of these OT’s and WR’s that people are flaunting right now are going to suck. It’s just the way the draft goes. Hell, 3/4 of the top OL in this class are projected to shift inside in the pros.

Or we could take the dude who is considered by many neck and neck with Harrison as the safest player in the draft, dominated the toughest conference in college football since he was a true freshman, can make an immediate impact in addition to being a longterm focal point of the offense, has all of the intangible qualities you look for, etc.

But we don’t want that because…TE isn’t a “premium” position?

Someone brought up a great point earlier. Detroit just got over the hump and came within minutes of a Super Bowl appearance. And what was a big part of it? Drafting a RB, an off-ball LB and a TE in the Top 34 picks a year ago.

That’s about as non-premium as it gets and I bet they wouldn’t change a damn thing about it.

With Detroit they have a great OL.  They invested heavily in the OL, and then they were able to bring in other pieces who flourished behind the OL.  The jets are still throwing a patchwork OL with the oldest tackles (not to mention the oldest qbs) hoping it all doesn’t fall apart.  They really need a good young tackle. 

[rbstern]

9 minutes ago, Claymation said:

He cited a scout who thinks he runs a 4.8 forty, when there is data that says otherwise is not sound scouting.

Yep.  That's about the most brain dead take anybody has ever said about any prospect.  Pure disinformation from someone trying to manipulate draft value or garner clicks, for who knows what agenda.

[slimjasi]

13 minutes ago, Larz said:

Kelce ran a 4.61 40 and his worst combine performance was short shuttle and 3 cone 

 

yall just making sh*t up about bowers now. 
 

just admit you think he can’t be good because Kyle Brady lol. 

I think he can be a very good pro. 

I just don't think he would be the best pick for the Jets at 10 under most realistic scenarios. 

Both things can be true. 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Because we go as far as he goes

We’re back to staring into an endless void at the position as soon as he’s gone.

Some of you guys are so against taking a TE at #10 that you’d rather take a one trick pony wideout who our QB will actively avoid.

Many of these OT’s and WR’s that people are flaunting right now are going to suck. It’s just the way the draft goes. Hell, 3/4 of the top OL in this class are projected to shift inside in the pros.

Or we could take the dude who is considered by many neck and neck with Harrison as the safest player in the draft, dominated the toughest conference in college football since he was a true freshman, can make an immediate impact in addition to being a longterm focal point of the offense, has all of the intangible qualities you look for, etc.

But we don’t want that because…TE isn’t a premium position?

Someone brought up a great point earlier. Detroit just got over the hump and came within minutes of a Super Bowl appearance. And what was a big part of it? Drafting a RB, an off-ball LB and a TE in the Top 34 picks a year ago.

That’s about as non-premium as it gets and I bet they wouldn’t change a damn thing about it.

I just think fundamentally a top ten pick should be a franchise cornerstone and making it based on anything to do with Aaron Rodgers is stupid.

Guy is 40 years old and coming of an Achilles tear. The likelihood is he's never a productive player for us. There's a much better chance that we clean house next year than that we win or play for a Super Bowl.

When thinking about "team fit" your really looking at the franchise pieces we have in place (Quinnen, Sauce, Garrett Wilson, etc.) and thinking about how they fit in with that -- and which players have both the potential to flourish in the short term but would be valuable pieces long term no matter what.

If you think Brock Bowers is a "safe" pick I think that's fair rationale I just fundamentally don't agree. I think there's a strong likelihood that he's a specific type of player that can be productive but that doesn't plug and play in every NFL system. And yeah -- I want system proof guys that even the Jets can't screw up. Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall are studs that don't need good coaching to flourish. Need more guys like that. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, UntouchableCrew said:

I just think fundamentally a top ten pick should be a franchise cornerstone and making it based on anything to do with Aaron Rodgers is stupid.

Guy is 40 years old and coming of an Achilles tear. The likelihood is he's never a productive player for us. There's a much better chance that we clean house next year than that we win or play for a Super Bowl.

When thinking about "team fit" your really looking at the franchise pieces we have in place (Quinnen, Sauce, Garrett Wilson, etc.) and thinking about how they fit in with that -- and which players have both the potential to flourish in the short term but would be valuable pieces long term no matter what.

If you think Brock Bowers is a "safe" pick I think that's fair rationale I just fundamentally don't agree. I think there's a strong likelihood that he's a specific type of player that can be productive but that doesn't plug and play in every NFL system. And yeah -- I want system proof guys that even the Jets can't screw up. Garrett Wilson and Breece Hall are studs that don't need good coaching to flourish. Need more guys like that. 

Agree completely the pick should not be based at all on rodgers who may just want to come back and play at a decent level so he can go out on his own terms. 

[Rich Thornburgh]

1 hour ago, WhartonJet said:

This has been discussed ad neaseum.  If you were a top NFL draft pick coming off a hamstring injury, would you run the 40 when it could only hurt your draft position?

I got some Bernie Madoff mutual funds to selll you

[Untouchable]

5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

With Detroit they have a great OL.  They invested heavily in the OL, and then they were able to bring in other pieces who flourished behind the OL.  The jets are still throwing a patchwork OL with the oldest tackles (not to mention the oldest qbs) hoping it all doesn’t fall apart.  They really need a good young tackle. 

Detroit’s had a great OL for multiple years now. They’ve had Goff for multiple years now. 

But they were still a middling to sh*tty team before they cranked out that draft class in 2023.

3 stud players at 3 notoriously “non-premium” positions played a huge part in their resurgence.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

1 hour ago, derp said:

What do you objectively look at to determine that he was very dominant and how would you compare whatever that objective criteria is to the receivers who project to go ahead of him?

1. 13 TDs as a true freshman as a starting point.  Goal is to score and he did that early and often, forcing teams to switch how they defended him.  

2. 1st Team All SEC 3 years in a row, voted on by the coaches whose job it is to stop him (I get there’s a layer of subjectivity here but this recognition is an important measure because of who it’s from).  

3. Truly dominant in yards after contact, recognizing his yards after the catch are helped by some of the quick passes designed for him.

Here are some (mostly) objective stats:

————————————

Bowers was once again the most valuable tight end in the country as a sophomore and won his first John Mackey Award, given to the best tight end in college football. That year, he led all FBS tight ends in receiving yards (942), yards after the catch (479) and receiving yards after contact (274). 

As a junior, Bowers became the first two-time winner of the Mackey Award in its 24-year history. Despite missing four games due to injury/opt out, he still led all FBS tight ends with 486 yards after the catch and 249 receiving yards after contact while his 717 receiving yards led all Power Five ones. 

When looking at Bowers’ advanced receiving numbers since PFF began charting college football in 2014, he laps the field. 

Brock Bowers among Power Five tight ends since 2014 (PFF College’s inception)

Stat	Amount	Next-closest
Receiving grade	94.1	92.9  (Kyle Pitts)
Receiving yards	2,541	2,189 (Charlie Kolar)
Receiving touchdowns	26	23 (Charlie Kolar& Albert Okwuegbunam)
Receiving yards after contact	689	466 (Sam LaPorta)
Missed tackles forced on receptions	44	36 (Jaheim Bell, Sam LaPorta & Brant Kuithe)

 

[jvill 51]

17 minutes ago, C Mart said:

The best thing about McGinn's write ups every year for the draft is he gets 3-4 scouts takes on the top prospects.  The difference in scouts takes on a player can be 180 degrees different. Which explains why the hit rate on even the top 10 picks is around 50%.  It's staggering.

I always find it interesting, but not sure how valuable it is. Like you said, sometimes they vary so widely even on the same topic that it’s tough to find a takeaway. Also think some of these guys might get too much joy out of seeing their quotes in print - case in point the guy saying Bowers would run a 4.8 which is ridiculous. The eye test can certainly be deceiving and I’m getting older, but I’m not blind yet I don’t think.
 

 

[nycdan]

35 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Last week?  He didn't run last week

I know now.  One site reported he did, but it was not corroborated so I am guessing it was nonsense.  There have been some reports of him running low 4.5s in his college recruiting days, but again, I have no idea how accurate they are.

[Claymation]

31 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Does he even qualify as a TE? He's undersized, can't block, doesn't outjump DBs for the ball. The scouting report in this thread says he's not a three down player. He seems like he projects as some combination of an H-back and big slot receiver that is a power runner in space. The claims that he's a difference maker as an athlete are based around whispers of what people heard he's done.

I have no doubt he's a good football player and if he goes to a team with a creative offensive mind I think he has the chance to be a very good pro. But he was largely schemed open and ran away from college LBs in the open field. I don't think he'll be able to do what he did in college in the NFL.

I'd be totally onboard with drafting someone with his profile in the second and third round -- where all the top TEs get drafted anyway. But at 10 overall? No shot.

More succinctly -- I'd be shocked if he ended up being a good pick at 10th overall by the New York Jets.

What?

[Tranquilo]

I don't think the speed stuff and 40 time is important. A mistake past GMs and scouts have made with TEs who are picked in the first round, is putting a lot of stock into athleticism. We keep hearing about all these TEs who got pick and busted. We also keep hearing that in order to be considered a 1st round TE, they need to have elite athleticism. Maybe it's been looked at the wrong way? The best TEs don't have generational athleticism. So I'm not too worried about that when it comes to Bowers. My main thing is the scheming.

[Bobby816]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

Sure from Bowers perspective I get it. If you’re the Jets though it’s a risk. 

I’d say a guy that would’ve been a top 15 pick after his freshman year, sophomore year and now this year against the best of the best a player can play in college. Isn’t a risk. He’s the safest guy along with MHJ (who also hasn’t worked out) in the draft.

[Bobby816]

43 minutes ago, slats said:

Pretty sure it’s being completely ignored that he still has lingering hamstring issues here in April, because that’s never a concern at all. 

I with confidence even though it’s a pure guess can say he and his agent sat down and said you’re hands down the best TE prospect. You have 3 years of great film against the best a player can play in college. You got injured and milk that as to a reason to not workout. Because at the end of the day he has nothing to gain but everything to lose.

 

Quite frankly he’s doing what every proven player that has multiple years of top end tape against great competition should do.