Were the scouting reports right? - ArDarius Stewart

[maury77]

I thought Stewart and Donahue were the worst picks in last year's draft and nothing they have done shows me that I was wrong. I thought Hansen was the better player and he went a round later. 

I think Stewart is off the roster by 2019. 

[Jetster]

WR is the toughest position to learn in the NFL outside of QB. If you look at mid to late round WRs, many of them don't hit the field lighting it up, whether it's because they're learning the position, the QB sucks which for the Jets is always true or the Oline is bad which forces the ball out quicker which certainly doesn't bode well for the 3rd or 4th WR on any given play.

I mean seriously, how many times did McCown have TIME to survey the field or why would any of those rookies be the main targets in a route? McCown isn't good because he locks onto WRs, he's slow of foot in the pocket, he has a slow release & he throws late A LOT. 

Until you have a decent oline & a franchise QB, you don't have SH*T! You could have Jerry Rice & John Taylor out there & if your watching your RB get tackled behind the LOS and watching your QB get sacked again, how the hell can you really develop rookie WRs? 

Kearse was the #1 target, when they took him away, McCown started looking for Robbie, then ASJ, when Petty had to play it was the end of anyone's development because he STINKS.

[joewilly12]

The Jets have had back to back 5 win seasons this says a lot about the offensive side ball.

[BrickTamland]

Great question. Grade is in complete. We dont and cant know the answer yet.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Usually, scouts have one or two positions that they really know, and can identify traits in a prospects that’ll translate to success at those positions. Looking at this list, what position group does Macc excel at? 

 

QB: Petty, Hackenberg

RB: Elijah McGuire

WR: Devin Smith, Charone Peake, Ardarius Stewart, Chad Hansen

TE: Jordan Leggett

OL: Jarvis Harrison, Brandon Shell

 

DL: Leonard Williams, Deon Simon

OLB: Lorenzo Maudlin, Jordan Jenkins, Dylan Donahue

ILB: Darron Lee

CB: Juston Burris, Jeremy Clark, Derrick Jones

S: Jamal Adams, Marcus Maye

 

BAP FTW

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

It's the OL/DL. Shell is a RT starter in the 5th round (with more upside untapped) and those two DL are pretty decent. 

Except the thing is Shell isn’t even average yet (though yes, he’s still young yet). It took him all summer long to beat out Brent Qvale for the starting RT job.

Deon Simon, for all the love thrust his way the last 2 offseasons, didn’t even make the roster on a team that lost its starting NT and signed a $3m stopgap in his place.

Williams didn’t take any scouting prowess; positional value aside, he was allegedly the draft’s best player (or it’s surest thing anyway).

So I’m not really seeing the expertise in assessing these areas either.

[jack48]

20 hours ago, JiF said:

The Jets treated Stewart like he was Cordarrelle Patterson with the ball in his hands minus asking him to return kicks. 

I think it's safe to say, this regime would look at Randy Moss with an awkward eye like, nah, he doesnt tackle people or break tackles.  pass

 

looked like he had about two plays designed for him from what I saw.  Very raw.

[maury77]

Yes, WRs need time to develop, but Stewart was a bad prospect from the outset. Mediocre physical attributes, mediocre production, older rookie, injury history, but he was a "high character" guy who "loved football". He should have been a third day pick. 

[Patriot Killa]

8 minutes ago, jack48 said:

looked like he had about two plays designed for him from what I saw.  Very raw.

Personally I don’t agree with using him as a gadget player anyway. He looks more like a speedier, shorter possession receiver to me. He definitely should of been around a 5th round selection but with all things considered he actually seems like he can turn out to be a solid slot WR at the most. That’s his ceiling in my opinion but I don’t think he will ever reach that ceiling.

[T0mShane]

I didn’t realize Jamal Adams ran a 6.96 three cone with a 31.5” vert. Those are defensive end numbers.

[T0mShane]

Adams tested pretty closely to Derek Barnett, who is a relatively unathletic pass rusher and dropped as a result. Adams also put up a monstrous 11 on the Wonderlic?

 

[Larz]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

It's the OL/DL. Shell is a RT starter in the 5th round (with more upside untapped) and those two DL are pretty decent. 

Yeah I remember reading  he had a rep as an o-line guy.  

[RutgersJetFan]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

Yeah cause there's only 3 talented players on the team at any given time and they are all on defense. Leonard Williams is getting double teamed. The Jets starting edge rusher was Seattles 8th DE and cut before opening day (David Bass).

it's called a competitive rebuild pal

[BigO]

20 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

They tried to get him the ball but he just couldn't seem to get open much, or develop much separation.  He's much better running with the ball

Did you see him on we reverses? He’d run the wrong way. Does not have elite speed and was terrible at setting up his blocks, couldn’t break tackles and was hesitant in his moves. Still, with a QB like Brady, Stewart turns into Deion Branch.

 Good article here: At least he’s a confident kid. 

FLORHAM PARK -- It hasn't clicked for ArDarius Stewart. Nine games into his NFL career, he hasn't made any form of an on-field impact. 

Part of that's because he hasn't had an opportunity. But with Jets ' slot receiver Jeremy Kerley suspended the next four weeks , that could change soon.

Stewart's well aware. And he can't wait. Because once coaches give him a chance to show what he can do ...

"I'm going to bust this thing wide-open," he told NJ Advance Media.

Stewart made quite the first impression moments after the Jets drafted him. On his introductory conference call, he told all he planned to bring a "load" of "awesomeness" to the offense. To this point, though, that hasn't happened.

Stewart missed most of rookie minicamp, organized team activities and veteran minicamp after groin and thumb surgery. When he returned in training camp, he was behind the eight ball. Despite his high draft status (third round), Stewart never climbed the depth chart. When the Jets signed Kerley after the 53-man cut down, Stewart fell down.

Stewart's been active for eight of nine games this season, but played just 19.6 percent of the offense's snaps. He has four catches for 36 yards, and three rushes for 18. He's returned nine kickoffs for an average of 19.3 yards per return.

The Jets have started to manufacture touches for Stewart (screens, end-arounds), but haven't settled on how to use him yet.

"I really don't have a home," Stewart said. "We're trying to figure out where I'm going to be. Wherever I get in is where I'm going to be, and where I'm going to play. I'm ready to do it all."

At Alabama, Stewart was a dynamic player with the ball in his hands. He totaled 1,646 yards of offense and scored 12 touchdowns his final two seasons. There's no doubt he can play. He just hasn't turned the corner yet with the Jets. But that could happen soon.

Robby Anderson and Jermaine Kearse will remain the Jets' top two receivers. But with Kerley out, they're looking for a slot.

Stewart, and fellow rookie Chad Hansen, are the only healthy receivers left. Considering Hansen is more of an outside guy, this could be Stewart's chance to shine.

"We're going to see when the game comes up," he said. "I'm always ready. Just going to have to see. I don't know yet. We'll find out when that day comes. We just got to see."

[Larz]

I found the problem guys 

Since we all know scouts only know 2 positions, the jets only have 7 scouts,  and they divided them by region,  not position! 

 

We're doomed 

Among the seven scouts hired Tuesday: former Northwestern wide receiver Lee Gissendaner, who was lured away from the Packers to be the Jets’ East Coast national scout; Jim Jauch, who leaves the Chargers to fill the same role as West Coast national scout for Gang Green; and former Bears area scout Zach Truty, who will be the Jets’ Central national scout.

Maccagnan retained just two scouts from the previous regimes of Idzik and Mike Tannenbaum, keeping Jay Mandolesi as Southeast area scout and Johnathon Stigall as Midwest area scout.

[varjet]

41 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Adams tested pretty closely to Derek Barnett, who is a relatively unathletic pass rusher and dropped as a result. Adams also put up a monstrous 11 on the Wonderlic?

 

Part of the Jet trap/problem is that they make a mistake, and that actually effects them making a good decision later.

I will be interested in seeing how Minkah tests athletically.  My guess is that it is much better than Adams.

[T0mShane]

11 minutes ago, varjet said:

Part of the Jet trap/problem is that they make a mistake, and that actually effects them making a good decision later.

I will be interested in seeing how Minkah tests athletically.  My guess is that it is much better than Adams.

Just weird how, for a scout, how little value Maccagnan places upon athleticism. 

[varjet]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Just weird how, for a scout, how little value Maccagnan places upon athleticism. 

A couple of months ago I was kind of supportive of him.  

After a couple of months of noodling and watching how playoff teams are constructed with generally lower draft picks, I think he is done unless he really lights it up this year. 

Something tells me that if you compared the analytics the Jets use to that of the Eagles/Patriots/Jaguars, you would be very unpleasantly surprised.  

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Except the thing is Shell isn’t even average yet (though yes, he’s still young yet). It took him all summer long to beat out Brent Qvale for the starting RT job.

Deon Simon, for all the love thrust his way the last 2 offseasons, didn’t even make the roster on a team that lost its starting NT and signed a $3m stopgap in his place.

Williams didn’t take any scouting prowess; positional value aside, he was allegedly the draft’s best player (or it’s surest thing anyway).

So I’m not really seeing the expertise in assessing these areas either.

THose are all fair points, mostly. Q-value was never winning that job. Shell (especially last half of the season) grades out as above average and even could be a Cordy Glenn like LT if he keeps developing. He's got the bloodlines for it and he was a trade up target. 

To clarify not saying Mac is a good drafter overall or even that he's good at OL/DL. Just saying out of that list Shane presented that's the least bad part of the list. 

[varjet]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

THose are all fair points, mostly. Q-value was never winning that job. Shell (especially last half of the season) grades out as above average and even could be a Cordy Glenn like LT if he keeps developing. He's got the bloodlines for it and he was a trade up target. 

To clarify not saying Mac is a good drafter overall or even that he's good at OL/DL. Just saying out of that list Shane presented that's the least bad part of the list. 

Out of all of Mac's draft picks 3rd round and below, who would we consider respectable at this point?  Jenkins, Shell and Edwards?

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Adams tested pretty closely to Derek Barnett, who is a relatively unathletic pass rusher and dropped as a result. Adams also put up a monstrous 11 on the Wonderlic?

 

Athletically, his closest analogue at safety is Mark Barron, which is a plausible career path for him.

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Athletically, his closest analogue at safety is Mark Barron, which is a plausible career path for him.

I was going to say that it’s hard to find work as a 5’10, 215 lb linebacker in the NFL until I remembered that we actually employ a 5’9”, 215 lb linebacker.

[David Harris]

Missing on a 3rd rounder isn’t the end of the world but you can still find starters there and this Stewart pick is especially brutal because we passed on the highest rated player on the board who was at a position of need and who started all last year and looked great which is the Center for the Vikings Pat Eiflin (sp?) and we had the worst center in the league last year which probably also affected our guard play.  

Enormous MISS by our GM.

[ZachEY]

Around week 4 of the season, someone lit into me about how Stewart was on his way to being a special player.  Anyone wanna take credit for that one now?

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Adams tested pretty closely to Derek Barnett, who is a relatively unathletic pass rusher and dropped as a result. Adams also put up a monstrous 11 on the Wonderlic?

this has inspired me to research Bowles' Wonderlic.  Was it reported back then? Did they even administer it back then?

 

edit: couldn't find it.  But I did discover the the lowest Wonderlic score in NFL history is currently a Jet and plays a starting role in Todd Bowle's defense.  Way lower than Jamal Adams score of 11.  Guess who.

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Morris Claiborne scored a 4 on his Wonderlic

Quote

At the other end, Cowboys backup cornerback Morris Claiborne has the dubious distinction of the lowest score in NFL history, registering a 4 in 2012. There is some question about whether this was due to intelligence or effort, as Claiborne later stated in an interview he thought the test was irrelevant and quit after about 16 questions. 

 

[varjet]

22 minutes ago, David Harris said:

Missing on a 3rd rounder isn’t the end of the world but you can still find starters there and this Stewart pick is especially brutal because we passed on the highest rated player on the board who was at a position of need and who started all last year and looked great which is the Center for the Vikings Pat Eiflin (sp?) and we had the worst center in the league last year which probably also affected our guard play.  

Enormous MISS by our GM.

For draft picks, I consider that second to Hackenberg.

Devin Smith is next up.  

Let's focus on 1st round draft picks for kicks and giggles.  To me, a successful first round draft pick is a long term cornerstone of your team.  To help you accomplish that, teams have a 5th option year for 1st round draft picks, but that is supposed to be a carrot not a stick.  A team is expected to extend successful first round draft picks before they hit their fifth year or during it.

How is that looking for the Jets?  For Mac's 3 first round draft picks, who will get an extended contract?

Williams?  maybe, but is he worth Mo money?

Darron Lee?  big money for him?

Jamal Adams?  good player, but Eric Berry money?

How are we going to escape this trap?

[Philc1]

On 2/16/2018 at 3:53 PM, joewilly12 said:

All JAG's 

Robbie Anderson

Charon Peake

Jalin Marhsall

Ardarius Stewart

Chad Hansen

Mac’s drafts have sucked

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

THose are all fair points, mostly. Q-value was never winning that job. Shell (especially last half of the season) grades out as above average and even could be a Cordy Glenn like LT if he keeps developing. He's got the bloodlines for it and he was a trade up target. 

To clarify not saying Mac is a good drafter overall or even that he's good at OL/DL. Just saying out of that list Shane presented that's the least bad part of the list. 

That's fine. I do disagree on Shell, but I'll certainly admit it's not unreasonable to have some hope there (Cordy Glenn is more than a little optimistic, though; at this same age Glenn already had 45 starts at left tackle; Shell has 1/3 that on the easier side, and 1/4 of that they had to scheme a lot of TE help his way).

Bloodlines don't impress me that much, and this boob trading up for him in round 5 is not justification for optimism on its face either. There were other planned competitions, like left tackle where they didn't exactly bring back Ijalana for free, but could tell early on any competition would be pointless. Not so on the other side, where I think you're using hindsight to suggest there was no competition when there was. They surely wanted Shell to win it, but if the discrepancy was that obvious they'd have put an end to it in early August.

What's more, and because it's something I know you really focus on, you know even better than I that with 3 even-worse pass blockers on a given dropback it could merely mean others' protection broke down before his had a chance to. He's getting some credit for not being as woefully inept as others, more so than actually being really good.

In terms of grading sites like FO & PFF, grading relative to all other tackles, he certainly wasn't above average. Generally his pass blocking was about average (leaning towards below rather than above, with that built-in grading advantage outlined above), while his run blocking was very much below. The team's performance running RT and RE was horrible, and it's not all because of Forte; he wasn't winning his matchups enough.

 

Shell did have a couple of really good pass protection performances in '17 IIRC, but in between there were also some awful ones where he consistently let up pressure. Which ones for each escape my memory at the moment, and do keep in mind he's not typically blocking the team's top edge rusher, who more often lines up on the other side (and for some teams, chiefly up the gut).

This is not to say he has no future or anything like that, and only an idiot takes grades like PFF as gospel and the end-all of comparison discussion. But on balance Shell certainly was not above-average as you claimed, and when you factor in his super-crappy run blocking, overall it's generous to call him average.

The Jets should ideally be drafting a tackle at some point this year (preferably early) because neither of these 2 instills much confidence. If there's the opportunity to move back into the latter part of round 1 - or if they do sign Cousins and trade down from #6 outright - they should look hard at a LT prospect to hopefully promote above one of the tackles - or one of the guards - as a rookie. 

None of this makes Maccagnan's evaluation anything regardless. Even terrible ones will hit on a few, given enough years, just from the sheer number of prospects they bring in.

[kelticwizard]

8 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I didn’t realize Jamal Adams ran a 6.96 three cone with a 31.5” vert. Those are defensive end numbers.

Not the three cone number, it's not.  

 

Quote Gil Brandt:

Quote

The second drill of significance for corners is the three-cone drill. This measures a player's ability to change directions, as well as his burst and his ability to bend and turn. It shows you whether a guy is a good athlete, but also tells you if he's a quick thinker. These are all important skills for a position that requires lots of change of direction, covering slant routes, out routes, fly routes and so forth. Guys who run the drill in under 7.10 are almost a cinch to make it in the NFL.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000325547/article/at-nfl-scouting-combine-speed-is-king-for-cornerbacks

 

And Jamal Adams is a safety, a position which requires less speed and agility than CB.

 

 

[Rangers9]

I think you also have to consider opportunity. He didn't get much as a receiver. Of course maybe a reason for that, a coaching decision Watching him my general gut feeling is that like Peake he has talent. Same goes for Chad Hanson. He played but got almost no targets until the last few games and did pretty well. You had to like what you saw from him. btw good analysis.

[joewilly12]

25 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I think you also have to consider opportunity. He didn't get much as a receiver. Of course maybe a reason for that, a coaching decision Watching him my general gut feeling is that like Peake he has talent. Same goes for Chad Hanson. He played but got almost no targets until the last few games and did pretty well. You had to like what you saw from him. btw good analysis.

If it wasn't for the NY Jets these guys wouldn't be in the NFL.

[King P]

And we passed on Chris Godwin for this guy

[Philc1]

On 2/17/2018 at 10:38 PM, joewilly12 said:

If it wasn't for the NY Jets these guys wouldn't be in the NFL.

Macc is a disaster at drafting.  People making excuses for him saying “at least he’s not idzik” is ridiculous most nfl organizations would have fired both him and Bowles already

 

Thank God we have that cap room and Cousins is going to hit the open market otherwise we are staring at a third straight season of 5 wins or less 

 

[Philc1]

On 2/17/2018 at 2:30 PM, David Harris said:

Missing on a 3rd rounder isn’t the end of the world but you can still find starters there and this Stewart pick is especially brutal because we passed on the highest rated player on the board who was at a position of need and who started all last year and looked great which is the Center for the Vikings Pat Eiflin (sp?) and we had the worst center in the league last year which probably also affected our guard play.  

Enormous MISS by our GM.

Missing on a third rounder not a huge deal

 

Missing out on 3 in a row is

[k-met57]

anyone calling either Henson or Stewart a bust this early need a reality check. receivers dont typically put up numbers in year one, esp not after missing most of the offseason after surgery. i am def giving those guys a pass and waiting to see what they do this year.

e.g. name this rookie receiver?

9 games

19 targets

167 yards

no TD's