Per sources, Jets could offer Kirk Cousins fully guaranteed contract. (Merged Cousins Jets $$$ thread)

[#27TheDominator]

42 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

this offseason is perfect for finally fixing the qb conundrum.  cousins is there and the jets have a ton of cash.  there are qbs in the draft worth taking at 6 even if they don't move up.  

Every offseason is perfect for fixing your QB conundrum.  If you have one, you fix it.  2 of the last 4 teams playing fixed their QB conundrum after Mac took over. The Eagles and Vikings added their QBs since Mac got here.  In fact, they each added 2 guys that played this season since Mac took over the Jets.  The Titans and Bills added their QBs since he got here and the Chiefs and Jags will be trotting out new QBs for 2018 even though they made the playoffs.

[Augustiniak]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Not sure "eating it up" is the right phrase. 

I think some see this simply as the cost of doing business in the current NFL meta for a Top 10 quality QB. 

But even then, many who support signing Cousins (like me) are not exactly happy at the cost.

With that said, it's the lowest risk, highest immediate reward, likely highest long-term reward move the Jets can make.

Cousins is, right now, a top 10 (maybe top 12) franchise QB.  A QB of the quality the Jets have no had since Pennington (briefly) or O'Brien (briefly) at the least, since Namath at the most. 

Expectations for him here, immediately, would/should be 30 TD's, 4,000 Yards, under 15 INT's.  

His signing saves the Jets from using #6 on a questionable QB prospect, or worse, trading thee-to-four 1st/2nd rounders to get up to select one of the two also questionable prospects of Darnold/Rosen.

While it's possible Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Mayfield over the long term (2+ years out from drafting) may be "better" than Cousins, it's far from assured.

And the Jets as an organization have shown they are simply poor at QB development, for as long as I've been watching them.  

So yes, I've come to accept that the Jets might sign Cousins, and might give him a sweetheart deal for the privilege.  But with that, I expect a level of QB performance we've not see here (beyond flashes from say, Favre, or Fitzpatrick or Pennington) in my lifetime.

Is it risky?  Yes, but less so that a draft pick.  And with those saved draft picks we should (stress should) be able to draft three new starters to support Cousins on the offense, preferably on the line, and perhaps a RB as well.  

There is no prospect in this draft I see as such a clear-cut future pro bowler than I'd sell the farm to get him.  I like Mayfield, but Mayfield is a massive risk.  People who think Rosen and Darnold aren't risks are fooling themselves.  Worse, are the folks who think Bradford/McCarron/Bridgewater/etc. is the better route, when those guys will also command large salaries for materially less performance. 

So I am resigned to this possibility of an expensive Cousins.  Until we see real numbers, I refuse to get worked up over the cost.

What Paradis, is your preferred move this offseason at QB?

cousins is less risky than a draft pick b/c you've seen him in the nfl.  but paying close to $30M/year for an extended period is very risky.  and i've written this before - i think the larger concern is what mccagnan does after he gets a qb, whether it's rosen, cousins, mayfield, etc.  will he invest $$ in the offensive line, will he invest premium picks on weapons?  i think cousins does NOT choose the jets, not b/c he hates NY or b/c he thinks the franchise is a joke, but b/c the jets show NO commitment to offense, compared to elway.  could there be more polar opposite philosophies here?

bottom line, unless cousins is a money whore and bases his decision only on $$, he's going elsewhere.  and then we'll see what mccagnan can do when his job is actually on the line.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Every offseason is perfect for fixing your QB conundrum.  If you have one, you fix it.  2 of the last 4 teams playing fixed their QB conundrum after Mac took over. The Eagles and Vikings added their QBs since Mac got here.  In fact, they each added 2 guys that played this season since Mac took over the Jets.  The Titans and Bills added their QBs since he got here and the Chiefs and Jags will be trotting out new QBs for 2018 even though they made the playoffs.

some years aren't perfect.  when the jets picked 6th they had no shot of moving up to get winston or mariotta, and the qbs after them weren't good.  there wasn't cousins in FA.  some years the assets aren't available.  this year, they are.  

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Been preaching this type of deal the past few months (in my mock on my signature). This is the reason Cousins is such a great idea, his cap percentage in years 3-5 when we need to resign our own players will be so much lower than all the top QBs. I understand people not liking Cousins as a players but if people are afraid of the money they need to think again.

I am not a huge fan of front loading deals. The players get their money and then people will be talking about what a bargain they are.  The good news they are then tradeable assets.  We honestly don't have any players we have to resign.  Who are these players under contract we are worried about?  Williams?  Adams?  Maye?  These are not high dollar guys IMO.

[BrickTamland]

Jason is the man. However, I don't know if people reading his article will understand that the 60m he is talking is about is the cash doled out to Cousins as opposed to money counting against the cap. The graph he posts is more clear. For the following, I'm going by Jason's first graph:

 "Paying 60m" means that Kirk will receive CASH of 60m COMBINED between 20m estimated signing bonus plus his ~40m salary in 2018.

However, the cap hit of the 20m signing bonus is divided between the 5 years, so that it counts only 4m against the cap each year.

the high cap hit in year 1 (2018) is 44m

In 2018, assuming our expected cuts, that means we'd have (~104m - 44m) = 60m left over in salary cap dollars to sign FA and rooks. 

In 2019, again assuming expected cuts, that means we'd have (~135m-22m)=113m left over in salary cap dollars 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

some years aren't perfect.  when the jets picked 6th they had no shot of moving up to get winston or mariotta, and the qbs after them weren't good.  there wasn't cousins in FA.  some years the assets aren't available.  this year, they are.  

They were sitting there in 2017.  Time will tell if he made the right decision, but our hands are tied now.

[RutgersJetFan]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am not a huge fan of front loading deals. The players get their money and then people will be talking about what a bargain they are.  The good news they are then tradeable assets.  We honestly don't have any players we have to resign.  Who are these players under contract we are worried about?  Williams?  Adams?  Maye?  These are not high dollar guys IMO.

sounds like someone isn't aware that both Adams and Maye finished top 10 for rookie safeties, pal

[bla bla bla]

9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am not a huge fan of front loading deals. The players get their money and then people will be talking about what a bargain they are.  The good news they are then tradeable assets.  We honestly don't have any players we have to resign.  Who are these players under contract we are worried about?  Williams?  Adams?  Maye?  These are not high dollar guys IMO.

They won't need new deals until 2020 (year 3 of the Cousins deal) so that is why the front load is so great. We will still have plenty of money to sign FAs in 2018 and 2019 while also having all our draft picks. I didn't really even think about Kirk as a tradable asset but that is a huge piece of this puzzle if something goes sideways. I think there will be a lot of teams that would blame the Jets and Redskins for just being bad and would trade a 1st for him especially if his deal is as low as it is going to be in year 3.

[BrickTamland]

anyone in favor of a trade (low round pick OR player exchange [Darron Lee?]) for Bobby Wagner?

Great player, in prime, high contract #s. Seattle is about to be DECIMATED due to a combination of high cap numbers plus injuries. Getting rid of him saves them about 6m. They only have about 13m in cap space as things stand.

I'd be down to pair him with Demario after trading away Lee. He's currently signed through 2019

Cliff Avril, Jeremy Lane and KJ Wright may also be available from the Seattle D. Not to mention Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas. Some of those guys are definitely gone

[Mike135]

Does anyone think Kirk's beliefs play a role in where he chooses to play?  Or even what teams are willing to accept him?

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/51136/kirk-cousins-on-the-gay-teammate-question

[bla bla bla]

2 minutes ago, BrickTamland said:

anyone in favor of a trade (low round pick OR player exchange [Darron Lee?]) for Bobby Wagner?

Great player, in prime, high contract #s. Seattle is about to be DECIMATED due to a combination of high cap numbers plus injuries. Getting rid of him saves them about 6m. They only have about 13m in cap space as things stand.

I'd be down to pair him with Demario after trading away Lee. He's currently signed through 2019

Cliff Avril, Jeremy Lane and KJ Wright may also be available from the Seattle D. Not to mention Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas. Some of those guys are definitely gone

Hmm it would probably depend on how FA went for me, you'd basically be adding him for an extra $10M this year and extra $11M next year. I don't see LB as that big of a need with Lee so if we can get other FAs then I'm happy keeping him but if we have money sitting around then I would be for it.

[Pac]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Not having a winner will be his undoing.  He has had enough time.  It takes 3 years to COMPLETELY revamp an NFL roster.  This guy came in with a clean slate and here were are sitting on 5-11 with a roster devoid of talent. 

We're starting year 2 aka Phase 2 of the rebuild..

Everyone knows that except the guys on this site stubbornly arguing that the rebuild began 3 years ago. 

It didn't.  Woody didn't allow it until last off season. 

He admitted as much.  

[Irish Jet]

Too many pages. Do we want Cousins? I kind of do, is this bad?

Is this too much money? Numbers are bad for my head. 

[bla bla bla]

3 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Does anyone think Kirk's beliefs play a role in where he chooses to play?  Or even what teams are willing to accept him?

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/51136/kirk-cousins-on-the-gay-teammate-question

Eh not really, I think that was probably a fine answer, that was 5 years ago and it doesn't seem like that has been an issue. I think it could certainly be read two ways but considering his beliefs I don't think anyone is overly upset with his phrasing. I'm also not sure there are many teams that care one way or the other so I'd lean towards no it will not change anything.

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Does anyone think Kirk's beliefs play a role in where he chooses to play?  Or even what teams are willing to accept him?

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/51136/kirk-cousins-on-the-gay-teammate-question

Demario Davis had some militant tweets during the Michael Sam saga.  This seems to be a rational, Christian compatible take - love and support everyone, even if you do not necessarily agree with their lifestyle.  Teams will not even care.  He has a pretty wide group of teams to select from, but I am pretty sure that money still talks.   

3 minutes ago, Pac said:

We're starting year 2 aka Phase 2 of the rebuild..

Everyone knows that except the guys on this site stubbornly arguing that the rebuild began 3 years ago. 

It didn't.  Woody didn't allow it until last off season. 

He admitted as much.  

Got it.  Are we allowed to improve this year, or did the owner forbid it?  

1 minute ago, Irish Jet said:

Too many pages. Do we want Cousins? I kind of do, is this bad?

Is this too much money? Numbers are bad for my head. 

Stop pretending to be straight.

[Irish Jet]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Stop pretending to be straight.

You promised you'd never mention that night we had ffs.

[Pac]

24 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Got it.  Are we allowed to improve this year, or did the owner forbid it?  

 

As far as I know he's all for it.  Luckily we're about to make some big splashes brah..  sit back and enjoy the show.  

get them shades on cause #thefutureisbright

[prime21]

disregard 

[prime21]

[joewilly12]

Buyer Beware: Kirk Cousins Could Be Fool's Gold on the 2018 Free-Agent Market

[bla bla bla]

19 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Here is a Jet Youtuber discussing KC...

Give the young guy some luv; I just subscribed...

 

I follow him too, I like that he's more rational than a lot of other fans haha 

[Lizard King]

1 hour ago, Pac said:

We're starting year 2 aka Phase 2 of the rebuild..

Everyone knows that except the guys on this site stubbornly arguing that the rebuild began 3 years ago. 

It didn't.  Woody didn't allow it until last off season. 

He admitted as much.  

link?

[Augustiniak]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

 

Got it.  Are we allowed to improve this year, or did the owner forbid it?  

 

we can, just not at qb.

[Paradis]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Not sure "eating it up" is the right phrase. 

I think some see this simply as the cost of doing business in the current NFL meta for a Top 10 quality QB. 

But even then, many who support signing Cousins (like me) are not exactly happy at the cost.

With that said, it's the lowest risk, highest immediate reward, likely highest long-term reward move the Jets can make.

Cousins is, right now, a top 10 (maybe top 12) franchise QB.  A QB of the quality the Jets have no had since Pennington (briefly) or O'Brien (briefly) at the least, since Namath at the most. 

Expectations for him here, immediately, would/should be 30 TD's, 4,000 Yards, under 15 INT's.  

His signing saves the Jets from using #6 on a questionable QB prospect, or worse, trading thee-to-four 1st/2nd rounders to get up to select one of the two also questionable prospects of Darnold/Rosen.

While it's possible Darnold/Rosen/Allen/Mayfield over the long term (2+ years out from drafting) may be "better" than Cousins, it's far from assured.

And the Jets as an organization have shown they are simply poor at QB development, for as long as I've been watching them.  

So yes, I've come to accept that the Jets might sign Cousins, and might give him a sweetheart deal for the privilege.  But with that, I expect a level of QB performance we've not see here (beyond flashes from say, Favre, or Fitzpatrick or Pennington) in my lifetime.

Is it risky?  Yes, but less so that a draft pick.  And with those saved draft picks we should (stress should) be able to draft three new starters to support Cousins on the offense, preferably on the line, and perhaps a RB as well.  

There is no prospect in this draft I see as such a clear-cut future pro bowler than I'd sell the farm to get him.  I like Mayfield, but Mayfield is a massive risk.  People who think Rosen and Darnold aren't risks are fooling themselves.  Worse, are the folks who think Bradford/McCarron/Bridgewater/etc. is the better route, when those guys will also command large salaries for materially less performance. 

So I am resigned to this possibility of an expensive Cousins.  Until we see real numbers, I refuse to get worked up over the cost.

What Paradis, is your preferred move this offseason at QB?

Nothing you said there i would disagree with. I think 80% of us fall into a category that just want to find a QB, period. Some prefer the proven product (cousins) others think it's smarter to go draft. I'd much rather draft a QB, but i get the Cousins angle... 

But there's a deep level of blind adherence going with the Cousins crowd, because it's "just money".

Apparently money is a franchise commodity they don't value enough. Talk about trading 2 or 3 first round picks to move up for a QB -- "well hold on a god damn second now...." people get their penises in a bunch. Cause they appreciate the value of a draft pick... Conversely, I'm seeing stuff like 60 million in year 1, fully fcking guaranteed contracts and the cousins crowd doesn't even blink. A very small fraction of Cousins supporters wavered, that's it. And that's Bullsh*t. There are risks, very real risks, associated with trading up AND with signing Cousins. Neither are bullet proof. btw what kind of incentive does Cousins have to do well if his contract is fully guaranteed? 

Anyway. People clearly don't value or understand the value of salary cap spending, cause what we're talking about is the equivalent of trading 4 first round picks to move up for Cousins and the justification by posters here is becoming increasing laughable. 

Also: "There is no prospect in this draft I see as such a clear-cut future pro bowler than I'd sell the farm to get him"

Cousins isn't a clear cut future probowler. So if you could get 85-90% of his production from say Mayfield, and still have 58 of that 60 million, which teams fairs better. The only that overpaid for Cousins and bandaide everything else, or the team that settle for relative production and was able to build an O-line/Secondary and playmakers. 

I'm just riffin' here. 

[MDL_JET]

I'm ready. 

[#27TheDominator]

On 2/20/2018 at 4:53 PM, Paradis said:

Nothing you said there i would disagree with. I think 80% of us fall into a category that just want to find a QB, period. Some prefer the proven product (cousins) others think it's smarter to go draft. I'd much rather draft a QB, but i get the Cousins angle... 

But there's a deep level of blind adherence going with the Cousins crowd, because it's "just money".

Apparently money is a franchise commodity they don't value enough. Talk about trading 2 or 3 first round picks to move up for a QB -- "well hold on a god damn second now...." people get their penises in a bunch. Cause they appreciate the value of a draft pick... Conversely, I'm seeing stuff like 60 million in year 1, fully fcking guaranteed contracts and the cousins crowd doesn't even blink. A very small fraction of Cousins supporters wavered, that's it. And that's Bullsh*t. There are risks, very real risks, associated with trading up AND with signing Cousins. Neither are bullet proof. btw what kind of incentive does Cousins have to do well if his contract is fully guaranteed? 

Anyway. People clearly don't value or understand the value of salary cap spending, cause what we're talking about is the equivalent of trading 4 first round picks to move up for Cousins and the justification by posters here is becoming increasing laughable. 

Also: "There is no prospect in this draft I see as such a clear-cut future pro bowler than I'd sell the farm to get him"

Cousins isn't a clear cut future probowler. So if you could get 85-90% of his production from say Mayfield, and still have 58 of that 60 million, which teams fairs better. The only that overpaid for Cousins and bandaide everything else, or the team that settle for relative production and was able to build an O-line/Secondary and playmakers. 

I'm just riffin' here. 

Penises in a bunch - the JetNation way for 13 years!

I agree a great many people don't value the money enough.  Not having money to spend or not spending money gets you a roster like 2014 or 2017.  The result is not pretty.

[Warfish]

58 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I'd much rather draft a QB, but i get the Cousins angle...

Why would you "much rather" draft a QB, specially?  What are the advantages of that decision, as you see it?  Clearly "cap savings" is one.

Do you think the draft pick at #6 will be better than/equal to Cousins over the next five years?

Do you think we need to trade up and pick #1/#2 and that THAT draft pick will be better than/equal to Cousins over the next five years?

Quote

But there's a deep level of blind adherence going with the Cousins crowd, because it's "just money".

Apparently money is a franchise commodity they don't value enough. Talk about trading 2 or 3 first round picks to move up for a QB -- "well hold on a god damn second now...." people get their penises in a bunch. Cause they appreciate the value of a draft pick... Conversely, I'm seeing stuff like 60 million in year 1, fully fcking guaranteed contracts and the cousins crowd doesn't even blink. A very small fraction of Cousins supporters wavered, that's it. And that's Bullsh*t. There are risks, very real risks, associated with trading up AND with signing Cousins. Neither are bullet proof. btw what kind of incentive does Cousins have to do well if his contract is fully guaranteed?

I think most are concerned about the price of a Cousins investment.  However, I think most also see that we are extremely cap flush, especially in 2018, and posses the flexibility to create a contract that exploits this advantage without hamstringing the franchise in 2021, 2022, etc.

As for "60 million a year" and "fully guaranteed", I would again remind that these are New York Sports "Media" reporting, i.e. they are source-free speculation designed to drive website hits and sell newspapers and otherwise inspire reaction, reaction that helps profit the "media" agency.

As I said, till we see an actual offer from an actual Jets Franchise employee, I would not put ANY weight behind these reports.

Quote

Anyway. People clearly don't value or understand the value of salary cap spending, cause what we're talking about is the equivalent of trading 4 first round picks to move up for Cousins and the justification by posters here is becoming increasing laughable.

I'm having trouble understanding the "4 First Round Picks" cost.  Signing Cousins will cost ~30 mil a year for 4-6 years.  Cap wise, likely more up front, less in the future when we'll have less space available (i.e. front loaded).

Where is this four first rounder cost you're seeing?  

Quote

Also: "There is no prospect in this draft I see as such a clear-cut future pro bowler than I'd sell the farm to get him"

Cousins isn't a clear cut future probowler. So if you could get 85-90% of his production from say Mayfield, and still have 58 of that 60 million, which teams fairs better. The only that overpaid for Cousins and bandaide everything else, or the team that settle for relative production and was able to build an O-line/Secondary and playmakers.

I don't think we'll get even 50% of reasonably predictable Cousins performance from any of this cycles picks at #6 in years one or two, and likely not for any of the five year period.

I personally do not think either Rosen nor Darnold will ever be a top 10-12 NFL QB.  Darnold is IMO simply the next overhyped USC sunshine surfer boy to bust at the pro level.  Rosen will be making too many political statements planning his future running for the Senate to make the NFL his priority.  Allen simply isn't that good.  Mayfield......too risky.  20% chance he's Drew Brees, 80% chance he's all hot air, little pro performance.

Hyperbole to some degree, but not by much.  I think it likely that three of these four will disappoint at the pro level and never reach Top 10 status.  I simply can't say with any certainty which one will surprise and make it.  And frankly, I don't trust Macc to know either.

More importantly, I reject the loss of starter-level assets that a trade up would cost us.  I will not trade a starting Guard, RB and WR to move up for Sam f'in Darnold, the 2nd Comming of Mark "Boy Does He Look Great in that Magazine Article" Sanchez.

I may not like it, as I almost always favor the draft route.....but Cousins is by far the least risky choice for this franchise to make.  The one most likely to return us to postseason contention the fastest.  The one with the least likely chance to bust.  He is the conservative choice, despite his high salary cap cost.  And he retains all those picks to build around him.

If not him, I stand pat, draft BAP QB if one falls to us at #6, I refuse to trade up and sell off three other starters for Darnold/Rosen.  Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, it won't be proven till well into the future, because neither Rosen nor Darnold have shown themselves to-date to be worth 2 #1's and 2 #2's it would take us to get them.

Quote

I'm just riffin' here. 

Aren't we all my friend.

[Pac]

1 hour ago, Lizard King said:

link?

May 17'

Johnson has made it clear that there will be no playoff mandate for general manager Mike Maccagnan and head coach Todd Bowles in their third season together.

regarding full rebuild

“If you want to go to the promised land, you have to go in a certain direction,” Johnson said. “I think this is a direction we’ve never tried in the 17 years I’ve been associated with the Jets. We’ve never gone this way.”

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, Pac said:

We're starting year 2 aka Phase 2 of the rebuild..

Everyone knows that except the guys on this site stubbornly arguing that the rebuild began 3 years ago.  

Literally no one is arguing this, and in fact the people you're referring to are generally arguing quite the opposite.

[adb280z]

10 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

The players tend to stick together.

Generally I agree with you, I think holding out after making $60million would not make him a welcome sight in the locker room.

[Pac]

8 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Literally no one is arguing this

 

[dbatesman]

59 minutes ago, Pac said:

got eem

[T0mShane]

4 hours ago, Pac said:

We're starting year 2 aka Phase 2 of the rebuild..

Everyone knows that except the guys on this site stubbornly arguing that the rebuild began 3 years ago. 

It didn't.  Woody didn't allow it until last off season. 

He admitted as much.  

Imagine living with this brain.

[dbatesman]

4 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Buyer Beware: Kirk Cousins Could Be Fool's Gold on the 2018 Free-Agent Market

By far the best posts on this site are when joewilly12 finds some article germane to the topic at hand, and then just copies and pastes the title in some weird font without copying the article itself or even the link.

[Jetster]

2 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

I'm ready. 

This would make Septembers opener one of my most anticipated years since 1999.