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Chiefs - Jets Agree to Darron Lee trade

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I'd've kept Lee, but if you wanted him gone and your belief was the best you could hope for in the future would be a 5th round comp pick in 2021 (which is reasonable), then a late sixth rounder in 2020 is equal value and just fine. 

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7 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

Tom Brady - Terrell Davis

6th round picks.... ya never know.

 

Jesus h Christ can we stop using Brady when there’s beeen 1000 other 6th round picks that aren’t even in this league anymore 

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8 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

I hated the Gase hire, so I have no interest in defending him, but if the reports are true that this was an ongoing negotiation with KC, and it was only a difference of Maccagnan pushing for a higher pick (5th) and Gase accepting their offer (6th), it sounds like they really just wanted him off the team.  If that's the case, dragging a guy like that into camp may not go well.

Don't get me wrong, the move is nothing worth being celebrated, given how low of a return it was, but a disappointing player with a bad reputation relegated to backup duty that is not thought well of by his new HC or DC is hardly someone to get worked up over either.

Fair enough. I don't disagree with that point. My more important point is the way it was allowed to be done.  Then again there is the possibility that Gase was jus tired of having it on the table. I haven't read anything about the on going negotiation aspect of it yet either so I may be in the dark there. 

Either way our org is a bit on the slapstick side of the NFL. Consistent material for everyone else to have fun with. 

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11 hours ago, choon328 said:

The Jets traded for a former pro bowl player in Osemele by using a 5th and getting a 6th back yet people expected more for Lee in the last year of his deal?

Osemele is a 30 year-old (or he will be next month) who makes $10M this year and $12M the year after, coming off a bad season for him.

Lee is a physically healthy, speedy 24 year-old who makes $2M. While still unworthy of his draft slot, he was coming off his best season, with visible improvement from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. If he has even a half-decent season this year as starter he'll get a veteran contract and the acquiring team (KC) can recoup more in a comp pick than they surrendered to get him in the first place.

It's not apples to apples.

Disappointment as he was for a 20th overall pick, he was a cheap backup player with years of starting experience, who can obviously start in a pinch should one of our 2 expensive starters go down, or show value in other defensive looks.

Maccagnan was a bad GM, but the only way this is a good trade is if it's being done to show who's the boss and have name players on their toes respecting his authority, and if it has that desired effect on the team. Or maybe if there's something even more that's wrong with Lee from the neck up that we don't know about yet. On paper Lee had more value to keep him than a late 6th rounder next season (trade value of a late 7th rounder this year, since we don't get to use that pick this season). 

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8 hours ago, choon328 said:

According to Breer the Jets had been talking to the Chiefs for weeks about this trade. Macc was stuck on getting a 5th and the Chiefs wouldn't budge. Once Macc was canned the Chiefs called to see if Gase was willing to do it for the 6th and he was. Macc was worried about how the trade would look and Gase has no attachment to Lee so he couldn't care less about the optics.

That's interesting. I haven't seen that one yet.  I read like 15 different articles and that point hasn't crossed my path. That helps a bit. 

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10 hours ago, F00tballGuy69 said:

I've been hard on Lee, but this is awful value.  I'd have been content with a pick somewhere in the middle of the 5th, but this will be a very late 6th, pretty much a 7th rounder.  Would have rather seen him stay as a backup with the off chance he played well enough to sign a decent contract somewhere else next year to fetch us a comp pick.  I'm sure Gregg Williams wanted nothing to do with the guy. 

It's pretty much a late 7th rounder. 

It's a late 6th rounder we don't get to use for another 11 months, while KC gets the player this year, not 11 months from now.

Trade value on paper = Chiefs' presumed 7th round slot in 2020. 

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9 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Honestly hate this trade, I'd rather have rolled the dice on a change of position than save $1.8M and a late 6th.

Have to agree so far, though I'm still catching up as I fell asleep early lol.

We save less than $1.8M; someone else will take his roster spot with a minimum cap hit of ~$500K or so. Cap savings is barely over $1M, which is a rounding error on a cap that's fast approaching $200M per year.

It's a statement trade not a value trade. We could have traded our 7th round pick this year for a 6th rounder next year, and it'd have been for a higher 6th rounder than we'll get for Lee.

If it's successful as a "new sheriff in town" move that keeps guys in check, then that has value. Right now it's premature to see that, as I think his reputation (as well as that of Williams) already preceded him as being not Bowles (or K.Rodgers) Part II.

It's not 1 round less than Macc wanted a month or more earlier, as Macc maybe wanted a 5th rounder this year (before the draft). A 5th rounder in 2019 is worth 2 rounds more than a 6th rounder in 2020. Neither value is earth shattering, and each is well below the initial investment in Lee, but the difference is not totally negligible.

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23 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Osemele is a 30 year-old (or he will be next month) who makes $10M this year and $12M the year after, coming off a bad season for him.

Lee is a physically healthy, speedy 24 year-old who makes $2M. While still unworthy of his draft slot, he was coming off his best season, with visible improvement from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. If he has even a half-decent season this year as starter he'll get a veteran contract and the acquiring team (KC) can recoup more in a comp pick than they surrendered to get him in the first place.

It's not apples to apples.

Disappointment as he was for a 20th overall pick, he was a cheap backup player with years of starting experience, who can obviously start in a pinch should one of our 2 expensive starters go down, or show value in other defensive looks.

Maccagnan was a bad GM, but the only way this is a good trade is if it's being done to show who's the boss and have name players on their toes respecting his authority, and if it has that desired effect on the team. Or maybe if there's something even more that's wrong with Lee from the neck up that we don't know about yet. On paper Lee had more value to keep him than a late 6th rounder next season (trade value of a late 7th rounder this year, since we don't get to use that pick this season). 

In a nutshell. Pretty simple.

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Well neither of us know what the FA landscape looks like next year for the Jets, but I am not so sure that's accurate. That said, it's useless to argue. That's why I used the word potential there. (ya like that?)  

Let's assume he had no positional value like you said, you don't think, as training camps move on and the injuries pile up that Lee's value wouldn't rise past a 6th from the Chiefs?  I do.  Now this can be considered nit picking, but I just don't see the rush here. I think this has much more to do with the statement Gase is making to Macc on his way out which is Go F yourself than any real football value. I wish everyone would just accept that and quit trying to make this a smart move. It's simply not. 

 

No. It’s this simple. He has no value as a LB. KC is tossing a late 6th rounder to see if they can plug him in as a hybrid player in spot situations. Lee is not and will never be an option at LB, backup or otherwise, for anyone in the NFL. As soon as KC has an injury at any other position and need roster space Lee will be cut. He might get a mid season look from another team but the smart money says he’s out of the league by the 2020 season.

 

He has no position in the NFL. He was Todd Bowles pet project hybrid nonsense position and it turned out he couldn’t do that either.

 

And yes, the timing of the move was absolutely a **** you to Macc, as in “hey Macc you indecisive imbecile here’s what you should’ve done a month ago”

 

 

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9 hours ago, Dcat said:

I need to give you props.  You were right about Lee from the second he set foot on the field.  Never an equivocation.  Impressive Carlos.

Preciated...   i guess th emonki typed a sonnet, eh?

;-)

This one was easy,  like waking up to Sam Kinnison screaming in your face on your worst hangover.

 

Insurance? Insurance that he can be taken out of 98% of snaps? 

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curtmart...  your on my ignore list. get an ey transplant x2. 

you havent a clue.

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13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's a statement trade not a value trade. We could have traded our 7th round pick this year for a 6th rounder next year, and it'd have been for a higher 6th rounder than we'll get for Lee.

 

i imagine that mccagnan waffled about trading lee during the draft, but ultimately decided not to admit failure with one of his former 1st round picks.  ironically he drafted lee's replacement anyway in cashman.  it's possible that mccagnan knew that lee was going to be traded by training camp anyway, and planned for this by drafting cashman but still couldn't admit that lee was a fail both on and off the field.  

this traded was clearly a statement trade that gase 1) has no desire to coach certain players and 2) will not waffle on personnel decisions.

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Have to agree so far, though I'm still catching up as I fell asleep early lol.

We save less than $1.8M; someone else will take his roster spot with a minimum cap hit of ~$500K or so. Cap savings is barely over $1M, which is a rounding error on a cap that's fast approaching $200M per year.

It's a statement trade not a value trade. We could have traded our 7th round pick this year for a 6th rounder next year, and it'd have been for a higher 6th rounder than we'll get for Lee.

If it's successful as a "new sheriff in town" move that keeps guys in check, then that has value. Right now it's premature to see that, as I think his reputation (as well as that of Williams) already preceded him as being not Bowles (or K.Rodgers) Part II.

It's not 1 round less than Macc wanted a month or more earlier, as Macc maybe wanted a 5th rounder this year (before the draft). A 5th rounder in 2019 is worth 2 rounds more than a 6th rounder in 2020. Neither value is earth shattering, and each is well below the initial investment in Lee, but the difference is not totally negligible.

Yea I agree, this is absolutely a statement trade. I think the leaks about money spent on Bell and Mosley is a sign to Leo that we won't break the bank for limited production.

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5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i imagine that mccagnan waffled about trading lee during the draft, but ultimately decided not to admit failure with one of his former 1st round picks.  ironically he drafted lee's replacement anyway in cashman.  it's possible that mccagnan knew that lee was going to be traded by training camp anyway, and planned for this by drafting cashman but still couldn't admit that lee was a fail both on and off the field.  

this traded was clearly a statement trade that gase 1) has no desire to coach certain players and 2) will not waffle on personnel decisions.

I did say if it was a trade purely for statement, that has value. In terms of value, they didn't get much of any. They lose a cheap, young, healthy 3-year starter this year for a late 6th rounder next year.

I have no particular love for Lee as a player (nor as a person). He sold low here, so the trade's only value is the "whoa" value to the rest of the roster. Hopefully it has that effect and guys fall in line in part because of it. I can get behind that.

If he is productive for KC this year - if he's anywhere near as productive as he was last year, with his glorious top 10 PFF ranking for most of the season -  it's going to look foolish absent the Jets fielding a top 5-ish defensive unit in 2019 (something Williams has achieved once - barely - since the 2004 ended). 

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8 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Yea I agree, this is absolutely a statement trade. I think the leaks about money spent on Bell and Mosley is a sign to Leo that we won't break the bank for limited production.

leo is gone after this season, gase will use that money on offense somehow.

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Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

I did say if it was a trade purely for statement, that has value. In terms of value, they didn't get much of any. They lose a cheap, young, healthy 3-year starter this year for a late 6th rounder next year.

I have no particular love for Lee as a player (nor as a person). He sold low here, so the trade's only value is the "whoa" value to the rest of the roster. Hopefully it has that effect and guys fall in line in part because of it. I can get behind that.

If he is productive for KC this year - if he's anywhere near as productive as he was last year, with his glorious top 10 PFF ranking for most of the season -  it's going to look foolish absent the Jets fielding a top 5-ish defensive unit in 2019 (something Williams has achieved once - barely - since the 2004 ended). 

one thing that i think is going under radar with the darron lee trade, is that gase watched a lot of film on the jets D and specifically embarrassed him last year i think.  wasn't it the dolphins who tricked the jet lbs on a few tds last year where they cleared out the middle?  i think gase came in with his personnel assessments and wanted no part of lee on his defense and that's even before you consider the drug suspension.  and this was probably a point of contention with mccags b/c gms on the hot seat are generally unwilling to admit failure with a top pick. 

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Just now, Augustiniak said:

one thing that i think is going under radar with the darron lee trade, is that gase watched a lot of film on the jets D and specifically embarrassed him last year i think.  wasn't it the dolphins who tricked the jet lbs on a few tds last year where they cleared out the middle?  i think gase came in with his personnel assessments and wanted no part of lee on his defense and that's even before you consider the drug suspension.  and this was probably a point of contention with mccags b/c gms on the hot seat are generally unwilling to admit failure with a top pick. 

And this is an innate trait in the player? Then why bother with Gase in the first place if coaching and gameplanning has so little impact on player positioning and performance? 

I'm in favor of it working out by the end of the season. We'll see.

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3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I did say if it was a trade purely for statement, that has value. In terms of value, they didn't get much of any. They lose a cheap, young, healthy 3-year starter this year for a late 6th rounder next year.

I have no particular love for Lee as a player (nor as a person). He sold low here, so the trade's only value is the "whoa" value to the rest of the roster. Hopefully it has that effect and guys fall in line in part because of it. I can get behind that.

If he is productive for KC this year - if he's anywhere near as productive as he was last year, with his glorious top 10 PFF ranking for most of the season -  it's going to look foolish absent the Jets fielding a top 5-ish defensive unit in 2019 (something Williams has achieved once - barely - since the 2004 ended). 

I agree, but I think once the Jets decided to bend over for Mosley I'd rather have the draft asset personally. Even with an improvement last year, he still wasn't going to see a lot of snaps unless someone got injured. Can't see that going over too well in a contract year.

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10 hours ago, Pac said:

And for the Supreme Overlords first move he gets pennies on the dollar for a young LB who was ascending...

ugh.. this could get ugly.

"Ascending"? Lee was "ascending"? The kid could play college football, but did not have the physical tools, the mental makeup, or the grit to play any position in the NFL. He's a special team caliber player unwilling to play special teams.

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8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And this is an innate trait in the player? Then why bother with Gase in the first place if coaching and gameplanning has so little impact on player positioning and performance? 

I'm in favor of it working out by the end of the season. We'll see.

don't understand this response.  my point was that gase knew lee sucked and wanted mccagnan to trade him, that's why he traded him when he could.

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25 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

I agree, but I think once the Jets decided to bend over for Mosley I'd rather have the draft asset personally. Even with an improvement last year, he still wasn't going to see a lot of snaps unless someone got injured. Can't see that going over too well in a contract year.

They have backup players who were former starters like any other team. His value wouldn't have only increased in case of a Jets ILB injury, but also another team's ILB/OLB injury. The trade deadline is at the end of October. Once they didn't get a deal done for Lee before the draft, the rush to get rid of him should have gone along with it.

I don't care what would have gone over too well in a contract year. He made his own bed; it'd have been a good way for him to grow up, with the Jets holding a trade chess piece for the next 5 months. How many backup LBs does the team have that are right now better than Lee? Roster trimming won't occur for some time, so it's unlikely his replacement on a 90-man roster will prove more valuable.

Draft asset is not a part of this trade when you're talking about a late 6th round pick you can't use for over 11 months; they could have recouped such a pick by trading down 1 slot in any mid-round pick this year (or a couple slots next year), so this was purely about getting him out of the building asap not accumulating trade value. They may be right to have done it. We'll see.

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Lee was so misused and out of position it was ridiculous. Does that mean Im sticking up for him or think he may do better in another scenario ? No . But how many times do we have to see players out of position on this team ? That sh*ts getting Old and Both Rex and Bowles were doing it at a stupid rate. 

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9 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

don't understand this response.  my point was that gase knew lee sucked and wanted mccagnan to trade him, that's why he traded him when he could.

You don't understand? So no young players who previously looked sucky under substandard coaching will improve by virtue of Gase's (and/or Williams's) coaching. That is your inference, to which I was alluding. 

I think it's presumptuous to guess reasons why Crazy Eyes wants or doesn't want anything just yet.

I wanted Maccagnan gone. I'm happy he is gone, even if it's years late. That doesn't therefore make Gase a good GM, nor even a better one than the dufus he's interim-replacing. If Macc rather than Gase had traded Lee for a late 6th round pick a full season later I'd be no less critical, and I sense many are giving Gase an unearned benefit of the doubt here. 

Sometimes a player has more value to a team than he has on a trade market. Especially when teams are flooded with 90-player rosters after the FA wave and draft is over. I'd have waited for an injury to any of 31 other teams (including KC), as I don't see the rush to move him in mid-May. But I'm not coaching the team so admittedly I have that luxury.

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12 hours ago, chrisfaceoff said:

Jesus that’s rough. Regardless of anyone’s opinions on him, that is terrible. 

Patty cake, Patty cake baker's man.

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20 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

don't understand this response.  my point was that gase knew lee sucked and wanted mccagnan to trade him, that's why he traded him when he could.

Getting suckered doesn't always equate with sucking. Coaches can/should provide cues that would indicate when and when not to chase or vacate an area.  Your complaint honestly sounded as much with the coaching as the player. 

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2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You don't understand? So no young players who previously looked sucky under substandard coaching will improve by virtue of Gase's (and/or Williams's) coaching. That is your inference, to which I was alluding. 

I think it's presumptuous to guess reasons why Crazy Eyes wants or doesn't want anything just yet.

I wanted Maccagnan gone. I'm happy he is gone, even if it's years late. That doesn't therefore make Gase a good GM, nor even a better one than the dufus he's interim-replacing. If Macc rather than Gase had traded Lee for a late 6th round pick a full season later I'd be no less critical, and I sense many are giving Gase an unearned benefit of the doubt here. 

Sometimes a player has more value to a team than he has on a trade market. Especially when teams are flooded with 90-player rosters after the FA wave and draft is over. I'd have waited for an injury to any of 31 other teams (including KC), as I don't see the rush to move him in mid-May. But I'm not coaching the team so admittedly I have that luxury.

by picking cashman, you can infer that's an admission they were going to get rid of lee at some point anyway.  with the roster the jets have, how much would lee have played this year, and what could he have fetched in return in a trade - maybe a 5th or a 4th, maybe, if he doesn't get suspended again or injured.  

lee doesn't seem like the type of player who will improve that much with different coaching.  his lack of size and inability to play physically limits him to what he did best at OSU - running free behind giant DLs.  in the nfl his ability to do this unimpeded is reduced as is his value.  

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3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Getting suckered doesn't always equate with sucking. Coaches can/should provide cues that would indicate when and when not to chase or vacate an area.  Your complaint honestly sounded as much with the coaching as the player. 

true it could be that the defensive coaching last year contributed to lee not playing well.  but in 3 years we've seen enough of lee to know pretty much what he can and can't do.   

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Osemele is a 30 year-old (or he will be next month) who makes $10M this year and $12M the year after, coming off a bad season for him.

Lee is a physically healthy, speedy 24 year-old who makes $2M. While still unworthy of his draft slot, he was coming off his best season, with visible improvement from year 1 to year 2 to year 3. If he has even a half-decent season this year as starter he'll get a veteran contract and the acquiring team (KC) can recoup more in a comp pick than they surrendered to get him in the first place.

It's not apples to apples.

Disappointment as he was for a 20th overall pick, he was a cheap backup player with years of starting experience, who can obviously start in a pinch should one of our 2 expensive starters go down, or show value in other defensive looks.

Maccagnan was a bad GM, but the only way this is a good trade is if it's being done to show who's the boss and have name players on their toes respecting his authority, and if it has that desired effect on the team. Or maybe if there's something even more that's wrong with Lee from the neck up that we don't know about yet. On paper Lee had more value to keep him than a late 6th rounder next season (trade value of a late 7th rounder this year, since we don't get to use that pick this season). 

"on paper" is a myth.   The value in a market is determined by what buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept.   I am sure the Jets contacted 28 teams to unload Lee and this is the best that they could do. 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Macc had a slightly better draft day offer that he rejected to save face for yet another bad draft pick but Lee's value dropped significantly once the Jets signed Mosely so he's worth what they received in return.   

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3 minutes ago, LionelRichie said:

"on paper" is a myth.   The value in a market is determined by what buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept.   I am sure the Jets contacted 28 teams to unload Lee and this is the best that they could do. 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Macc had a slightly better draft day offer that he rejected to save face for yet another bad draft pick but Lee's value dropped significantly once the Jets signed Mosely so he's worth what they received in return.   

let's say another team approached the jets trying to trade mccagnan darron lee.  how much would you give up for a smallish lb who is not a pass rusher who was suspended for drugs last year?  

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You don't understand? So no young players who previously looked sucky under substandard coaching will improve by virtue of Gase's (and/or Williams's) coaching. That is your inference, to which I was alluding. 
I think it's presumptuous to guess reasons why Crazy Eyes wants or doesn't want anything just yet.
I wanted Maccagnan gone. I'm happy he is gone, even if it's years late. That doesn't therefore make Gase a good GM, nor even a better one than the dufus he's interim-replacing. If Macc rather than Gase had traded Lee for a late 6th round pick a full season later I'd be no less critical, and I sense many are giving Gase an unearned benefit of the doubt here. 
Sometimes a player has more value to a team than he has on a trade market. Especially when teams are flooded with 90-player rosters after the FA wave and draft is over. I'd have waited for an injury to any of 31 other teams (including KC), as I don't see the rush to move him in mid-May. But I'm not coaching the team so admittedly I have that luxury.


More likely a player that starts on a team for years because the FO and former coach are trying to save face for the fact they wasted a first round puck on a guy who’s not good at all. Trust me, Darren Lee will not be in the league in 2020.


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The Jets’ other option was retaining Lee as a backup/coverage linebacker in 2019, while hoping to get a compensatory pick for him next offseason, when he signed elsewhere. But that compensatory pick was never going to be a lock, so Gase opted to get what he could now.-NJO

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10 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

by picking cashman, you can infer that's an admission they were going to get rid of lee at some point anyway.  with the roster the jets have, how much would lee have played this year, and what could he have fetched in return in a trade - maybe a 5th or a 4th, maybe, if he doesn't get suspended again or injured.  

lee doesn't seem like the type of player who will improve that much with different coaching.  his lack of size and inability to play physically limits him to what he did best at OSU - running free behind giant DLs.  in the nfl his ability to do this unimpeded is reduced as is his value.  

You'll never know. Everything changes everything. Starters are in on different plays and maybe Mosely or Anderson gets injured with or without Lee. Maybe his trade value rises in August as 2-3 other teams lose similar players. This was the ultimate sell low. 

As to your specifics, I disagree that what a player is by age 24 (all under the same coaching he's had since getting drafted) is all he's ever going to be. 

His value was lowered due to the suspension and what seems to be a poorly-kept secret that the CS didn't want him. On the field there were worse starters in the league and will be this year as well. Plus he's young and cheap and healthy. 

Look at the Sheldon Richardson trade. If the Jets could have gotten a 2nd rounder for him in the preceding May they surely would have. What changed, other than the passage of time to change Seattle's minds?

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Apparently we had nothing but love for him. At least Max knows that Lee wasn’t running around here with a secret handle reading the board all these years. 

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