Can we agree that Gase was right?

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I’m just spitballing here but, what if an “offensive genius” quit trying to square peg this round hole roster and designed an offense around the strengths and weaknesses that it has? I’m probably just crazy!

How exactly should Bell be used?  How is the way he’s been used wrong?  The square peg, round hole thing apply here?

 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Yes Gase was right that he would not use Bell very effectively. Get the man a cookie.

I do wonder to what degree he wants to run his own offense that he wants in a perfect world, rather than adapting to run one based on the personnel he's actually got. (Then if that "adapted" offense fails, even if better than this even-worse one that people wouldn't have had the benefit of seeing, he would get a different type of blame). 

I'm typically never in favor of bringing in a mid-late 20s UFA RB for his final huge payday, after a couple thousand touches on offense -- plus in Bell's case, a less-than optimal injury history. I've always felt that, while there are clearly special talents at RB, what separates a good ground attack from a poor one is less typically based on the individual talents of one's #1 RB. More often it's a combination of the OL clearing holes + less predictable playcalling + a QB who's capable enough of challenging a defense enough that less-predictable playcalling is an easier task for the OC. (To take this to an extreme example, defenses we faced could comfortably stack the box without much fear of getting beaten by Luke Falk's right arm; even if he completed a pass it wasn't going to be for a huge gainer, let alone a long TD, let alone still risk it happening multiple times in a contested game). 

However in this one instance I was more sympathetic to bringing in Bell purely because of Darnold's formative years. I'd thought & hoped the OL would be better than this, even though my opinion of it in the preseason was very poor, and didn't want any Darnold failures to have the double-whammy excuse of no OL and no legit threat of a ground attack. Still more reason was that Bell wasn't an elite yet one-dimensional RB -- far from it. His presence (and veteran experience) would help in picking up blitzes, and turning emergency/panic dumpoffs into first downs as though he was the primary target all along, from before the ball was snapped. 

Once the game's slowed down for a veteran starting QB? Sure, a top-level RB1 is always a hell of a nice chess piece to have, but I don't think it's a crucial UFA signing for big bucks. 

Where I get far more annoyed is, when the team's knowingly trying to break in an extraordinarily young QB (or is 100% expecting to be doing so the following season), instead repeatedly busts its nut in FA and with its highest draft picks on defenders instead, at positions that are routinely available in FA or later in the draft, even if for lesser players. 

Other than Darnold himself, in the year before drafting him (when the team passed on Mahomes and Watson), their headliner incoming draft picks & FAs signed were at safety, safety again, corner, DT, ILB, and then DT again. Each and every one of these bugs me more than going for the gold to try and provide an elite offensive weapon/playmaker for a 22 year-old starting QB's 2nd + 3rd + 4th NFL seasons.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I do wonder to what degree he wants to run his own offense that he wants in a perfect world, rather than adapting to run one based on the personnel he's actually got. (Then if that "adapted" offense fails, even if better than this even-worse one that people wouldn't have had the benefit of seeing, he would get a different type of blame). 

I'm typically never in favor of bringing in a mid-late 20s UFA RB for his final huge payday, after a couple thousand touches on offense -- plus in Bell's case, a less-than optimal injury history. I've always felt that, while there are clearly special talents at RB, what separates a good ground attack from a poor one is less typically based on the individual talents of one's #1 RB. More often it's a combination of the OL clearing holes + less predictable playcalling + a QB who's capable enough of challenging a defense enough that less-predictable playcalling is an easier task for the OC. (To take this to an extreme example, defenses we faced could comfortably stack the box without much fear of getting beaten by Luke Falk's right arm; even if he completed a pass it wasn't going to be for a huge gainer, let alone a long TD, let alone still risk it happening multiple times in a contested game). 

However in this one instance I was more sympathetic to bringing in Bell purely because of Darnold's formative years. I'd thought & hoped the OL would be better than this, even though my opinion of it in the preseason was very poor, and didn't want any Darnold failures to have the double-whammy excuse of no OL and no legit threat of a ground attack. Still more reason was that Bell wasn't an elite yet one-dimensional RB -- far from it. His presence (and veteran experience) would help in picking up blitzes, and turning emergency/panic dumpoffs into first downs as though he was the primary target all along, from before the ball was snapped. 

Once the game's slowed down for a veteran starting QB? Sure, a top-level RB1 is always a hell of a nice chess piece to have, but I don't think it's a crucial UFA signing for big bucks. 

Where I get far more annoyed is, when the team's knowingly trying to break in an extraordinarily young QB (or is 100% expecting to be doing so the following season), instead repeatedly busts its nut in FA and with its highest draft picks on defenders instead, at positions that are routinely available in FA or later in the draft, even if for lesser players. 

Other than Darnold himself, in the year before drafting him (when the team passed on Mahomes and Watson), their headliner incoming draft picks & FAs signed were at safety, safety again, corner, DT, ILB, and then DT again. Each and every one of these bugs me more than going for the gold to try and provide an elite offensive weapon/playmaker for a 22 year-old starting QB's 2nd + 3rd + 4th NFL seasons.

Yup we could’ve had a Eric berry and a highly-drafted  OLineman instead of Jamal Adams and Ryan Khalil 

[jetstream23]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I’m just spitballing here but, what if an “offensive genius” quit trying to square peg this round hole roster and designed an offense around the strengths and weaknesses that it has? I’m probably just crazy!

Serious question - What if your RB does best in a man-blocking scheme but your offensive line is better equipped for zone.  How would you design the offense in the current year?  (We can all agree that changes are coming in the offseason)

In other words, do you run the offense to the strengths of the OLine or the strengths/preferences of your high-priced, ubertalented RB1?

(And no, teaching this incapable OLine two different schemes....one to run with Bell and a different one without, is not an answer.)

[Scott Dierking]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I’m just spitballing here but, what if an “offensive genius” quit trying to square peg this round hole roster and designed an offense around the strengths and weaknesses that it has? I’m probably just crazy!

I would say, hopefully, the last couple of weeks represent that.

[Maxman]

20 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Ya think maybe that Gase is doing a little something with play calling and play design that ensures Bell doesn't do anything to prove him wrong ???  That sounds like I am calling Gase out for sabotage, but sabotage is not likely.  That would require that Gase has a brain.  Remember, we are taking about an OC that was recently straightened out by a second year QB.  

I'm glad the Jets have Sam and I'm glad the Jets have Douglas, but it is Gase and not Bell that is the albatross you refer to.

Gase is trying to recreate what he thinks will bring success.  In his thoughtless compulsion to hang on to his teddy bear, he is blind to the unique strengths that the Jets current roster can afford him.

The sure sign of a bad coach on either side of the ball is that all too familiar scene of the "genius" with sweat dripping from his brow as the hammer hits the top of the square peg over the round hole.

Such "genius" is going to be with us always.  Like bad weather. 

Unfortunately, we've got one such genius running the show.

Yes Gase wants to prove that he was right in a conversation between him and Macc where nobody knows what was said. So much so that he is going to hurt the team and get himself fired.

He is giving Bell the ball and it isn't working. That has to be fixed. But suggestion that Gase is playing Bell and wants him to fail is way out there.

[Maxman]

4 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I would say, hopefully, the last couple of weeks represent that.

This week will be a big test but there were signs of progress (and evolution) lately.

[Fantasy Island]

Gase needs to keep his eyes on the ball.

I don't get what he is seeing.

[section314]

26 minutes ago, Maxman said:

This week will be a big test but there were signs of progress (and evolution) lately.

Big football weekend for you. Hopefully it gets off to a good start on Friday night. Think you guys get them this time.?

[varjet]

Leveon Bell's cap number this year is almost $9mm and next year goes up to $15.5mm .  He is guaranteed $13mm in salary next year.  If someone was trading for Bell before the deadline, they were assuming his guaranteed salary.   Unless there is a plan to utilize Bell more effectively, that is a very large allocation of cap space/money in 2020 for not a lot of production.

Rumor had it Gase wanted Tevin Coleman, who is having an ok year for the 49ers.  His YPC is at 3.9, as opposed to Bell's 3.1  His cap number is 3.6mm and is $4.55mm next year, not guaranteed.  

I share the Board's general respect and like for Bell, but if I was building a team, I would have signed Coleman, not Bell.  I think Coleman fits more with what Gase wanted to do, and the type of OL that Osemele was supposed to be.   

But I am a Conspiracy Theorist, and I do think the Bell signing was at least in part a desire by Mac/Johnson to make a splash.  

[funaz]

Gase has been right about almost everything. This one is super easy you never ever spend money on a running back they can be picked up anywhere in the draft and be paid peanuts Bell was a horrible signing

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[Philc1]

If we go 8-8 I will gladly eat crow about Gase

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, Maxman said:

Yes Gase wants to prove that he was right in a conversation between him and Macc where nobody knows what was said. So much so that he is going to hurt the team and get himself fired.

He is giving Bell the ball and it isn't working. That has to be fixed. But suggestion that Gase is playing Bell and wants him to fail is way out there.

From my original post: "That sounds like I am calling Gase out for sabotage, but sabotage is not likely.  That would require that Gase has a brain. "

[THE BARON]

28 minutes ago, varjet said:

Leveon Bell's cap number this year is almost $9mm and next year goes up to $15.5mm .  He is guaranteed $13mm in salary next year.  If someone was trading for Bell before the deadline, they were assuming his guaranteed salary.   Unless there is a plan to utilize Bell more effectively, that is a very large allocation of cap space/money in 2020 for not a lot of production.

Rumor had it Gase wanted Tevin Coleman, who is having an ok year for the 49ers.  His YPC is at 3.9, as opposed to Bell's 3.1  His cap number is 3.6mm and is $4.55mm next year, not guaranteed.  

I share the Board's general respect and like for Bell, but if I was building a team, I would have signed Coleman, not Bell.  I think Coleman fits more with what Gase wanted to do, and the type of OL that Osemele was supposed to be.   

But I am a Conspiracy Theorist, and I do think the Bell signing was at least in part a desire by Mac/Johnson to make a splash.  

I like your last line...  Making a splash would be consistent with Johnson and some of the Jets past "questionable" but sensational signings.   Geno Smith (while Sanchez was still the starter) and Tim Tebow.   

[Dunnie]

His contract is virtually un-tradeable at this point.  It’s even going to be hard to move him next year.  Unfortunately I think the Jets are stuck with him until 2021.  

Stuck with Leveon Bell.is like being stuck driving a lamborghini

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[varjet]

45 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Stuck with Leveon Bell.is like being stuck driving a lamborghini

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According to OTC, trading Leveon Bell before June 1 would result in a $3.5mm cap hit.   So moving him is cap negative for 2020.  Might as well keep him.  

[papz187]

Yup, whether it's running style, poor blocking or Bell has lost a step, he hasn't been effective
Powell has definitely out played him in the limited touches he's had this season.

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[Jetster]

2 hours ago, Fantasy Island said:

Gase needs to keep his eyes on the ball.

I don't get what he is seeing.

20 cups of coffee will do that to you.

[sec101row23]

1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

Stuck with Leveon Bell.is like being stuck driving a lamborghini

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With two flat tires. 

[section314]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

If we go 8-8 I will gladly eat crow about Gase

We go 8-8, beat Ravens and Bills on the road, then get used to saying “Adam Gase. , Coach of the Year.

[#27TheDominator]

6 hours ago, heymangold said:

Bell has been arguably one of the best team players on this roster.  His running style doesn’t match the blocking scheme and that’s on coaching.  Gase still hasn’t used Bell in the passing game a lot, something I think most fans thought would have happened.  The line is terrible and Darnold had struggled his first few games back from the Mono.  

A couple wins isn’t gonna make me change my thoughts on Gase.  Offense has looked a bit better but once he actually starts incorporating the best player he has on offense, maybe then I’ll consider it.

I don't think we can blame the coaching for the scheme not matching Bell.  That is why Gase supposedly didn't want him.  They wanted a one cut guy, and didn't feel Bell would justify the salary. 

Seems like they were right and Maccagnan was wrong.  At least half of that sentence was obvious to everybody.

[Jetster]

Hey, just going by what I'm seeing. I just thought Bell had more explosion to him, I've seen clips of him darting through a hole in the past but he just doesn't look like the same player even in those rare instances he's sees any daylight. I think the Steelers Oline coupled with guys like Antonio Brown (Top 3 WR) gave him more room to run. 

[CrazyCarl40]

3 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

I would say, hopefully, the last couple of weeks represent that.

They have some defenses that aren’t bottom of the barrel these last 6 weeks to see if it actually works. 

[LIJetsFan]

4 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Gase sees the rb position as a position where you can rotate low cost players.  He didnt like the bell signing because of the money.  He had nothing against bell, he just doesnt believe that is a high dollar position.

He did not know that bell is washed up and looks like a slug out there.

We don't know what Gase believes but this reflects my views on the position.  

[Jetster]

6 hours ago, chrisfaceoff said:

Dalvin.  His name is Dalvin.

Dalvin is very good & should have been the pick over Marcus Maye. 

[Jetster]

41 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

We don't know what Gase believes but this reflects my views on the position.  

Dalvin Cook would have been a nice low cost RB, too bad he wasn't available with our #2 pick....wait wut? Maybe we could have upped the ante for Norwell or any breathing Olineman.

[RutgersJetFan]

6 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Devin Cook

yah and his running style also matched the blocking schemes ALL THE FOOTBALL WORDS

[Fantasy Island]

11 hours ago, Jetster said:

20 cups of coffee will do that to you.

Mac got him hooked.

[BornJetsFan1983]

18 hours ago, Jetster said:

I don't think Adam Gase has anything against Le'veon Bell. You all remember the early rumors that Gase didn't want Bell & Jet fans instantly took Bells side on the subject. Bell has been a good soldier but let's all be completely honest, there is no way on gods green earth his production will match his salary. Yes, our Oline is a shambles but GREAT BACKS make something out of nothing at least once a game. Even when he gets a rare opening he doesn't seem to have the quick burst to get through. 

I was watching Devin Cook with the Vikings & his burst is amazing. My point is that the Bell contract is just another albatross that JD has to deal with. I thought the contract wasn't that bad considering we got a top 5 RB. After watching Bell for 10 games I have to say I'm not Impressed. I love his attitude but that doesn't win games. Gase was right & we'd be way better off having his salary for Oline, CB, Pass Rusher or WR. High priced free agents never seem to work out for this team. Kevin Mawae was probably our best free agent acquisition ever. 

Youre right, a running system that takes advantage of his outrageous talent would. He deserves an extension from this team

[Jetster]

3 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Youre right, a running system that takes advantage of his outrageous talent would. He deserves an extension from this team

Well you feel he has OUTRAGOUS talent, we must have the worst Oline in the history of the NFL! So why does everyone here blame Gase for that when he had zero to do with putting together this Oline? 

Isnt that why you have an Oline coach? Scarnechia puts the line together for Belichick. If Frank Pollack thinks Kalil, or KO were better than the Shlubs we already had here than just maybe Frank Pollack is the issue? 

[Irish Jet]

15 hours ago, Jetster said:

20 cups of coffee will do that to you.

Yes. If you use cocaine as a sugar substitute.

[Jetmech]

Apparently the Steelers tried to trade for Bell at the deadline. With Powell, Montgomery, Josh Adams....why didn’t Douglas move Bell, shed the salary and get an early/mid round pick? I think the answer is Adam Gase wanted to keep Bell. 

I’m a Bell fan but I recall the reason he wasn’t traded was due to his contract. He didn’t want to restructure it. If he did he basically held out for no reason.


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[sec101row23]

18 hours ago, Jetster said:

Hey, just going by what I'm seeing. I just thought Bell had more explosion to him, I've seen clips of him darting through a hole in the past but he just doesn't look like the same player even in those rare instances he's sees any daylight. I think the Steelers Oline coupled with guys like Antonio Brown (Top 3 WR) gave him more room to run. 

All those things are true.  It’s beyond obvious that Bell is a step or two slower than he was in Pittsburgh.  Then add in the poor O-line play, the lack of talent at the other skill positions, teams stacking 8 and 9 guys in the box and you get what you see now.  This is why back when the whole “should the Jets sign Bell” discussions were occurring, a lot of us were saying his impact wouldn’t be what it was in Pittsburgh.  It is also why there weren’t a bunch of teams looking to sign Bell either.  Combine that with the money he is making and it’s turned into a pretty bad signing thus far.