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Leonard Williams Trade

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Just now, JTJet said:

How is that not the EXACT same excuse we kept saying for Leo for 4 years? 

It's not just sack numbers, guy is averaging about a single tackle per game. That's not going to work for a 3rd overall pick. 

No it isn’t the same situation.  I think some are just very paranoid.  Give the kid more than 7-8 games before saying it’s Leo 2 lol

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37 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I like Jones, but Darnold does things in the pocket that he can’t do 

Boy, if you don't  tell people you are being sarcastic  around here.....

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41 minutes ago, phill1c said:

hmmm,

Isn't everyone saying the same thing about Quinnen Williams?

I understand what the problem is: people think every high first-round DT has to be Kris Jenkins and Charles Haley in one. DT is about doing the dirty work, which doesn't always show up on a stat sheet.

Meanwhile, NOBODY can run on the Jets. He's a big part of that, if only because he takes rotations.

I think the problem is it was not a position of need and they had a lack of picks and should have traded down to recoup some and take a much needed OL.  There is a lot of frustration because look at the state of the Jets- the strengths and weakness, it is not a team that should have spent the 3rd pick on a project DT.

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12 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

No it isn’t the same situation.  I think some are just very paranoid.  Give the kid more than 7-8 games before saying it’s Leo 2 lol

It's not being paranoid if the precedent was already set. 

Same players. Same temperament. Same production. Same outcome. 

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38 minutes ago, Rob123 said:

I think the problem is it was not a position of need and they had a lack of picks and should have traded down to recoup some and take a much needed OL.  There is a lot of frustration because look at the state of the Jets- the strengths and weakness, it is not a team that should have spent the 3rd pick on a project DT.

a) he's not a "project" DT. He's a rookie DT.

b) you have to have a trade that makes sense vs. wishing you had a trade that makes sense. I really don't know what the Jets were offered. So, I can't agree with you about the certainty of a trade or what it might have brought back.

c) I think it absolutely was a position of need. people seem to forget that you build a team with linemen. and, based on how well Q is playing--on an upper echelon run defense--and the DTs they'd lost to...whatever, I'd say it was a reasonable choice.

One can complain about any pick. But this seems like an odd time to complain about this one.

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1 hour ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Nonsense. The vikings traded a 5th for vedvek and cut him a week later.

The giants wil cut bait.  Fool me once shame on you......

Some people here still think he's going too sign a lucrative contract for 15mil + a year and we would have received a third round comp for losing him. 

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Amazing how we lost the one pick for years who was you-know-who’s pride and joy best pick, in what should have been his highest-motivation year as a UFA after this season, and on the field the team has missed him less than not at all.

It just sucks that we had to absorb so much of his remaining salary to get mid-round picks for this turd. We paid all but the last 2 weeks of his $13-14MM salary just to pry a couple mid-round picks off them next year. So yes we got back a nice 3rd round pick (plus a mid-rounder in 2021 which has a round lower value for 2020), but it wasn’t a straight-up “free” trade; we bought that 3rd round pick from the Giants for most of his remaining $6MM. 

Should have just rescinded the 5th year option in March, take the 3rd round comp pick in 2020, and saved $11MM in cap room. Never mind the hindsight benefit we’re using: if he got injured in those first 7 weeks (like so many other Jets) we’d have ended up with nothing. 

Was the third round comp definite? Not to familiar with how that system works, also the comp pick would be at the end of the round meanwhile the giants pick will most likely be at the top. How’s there cap look for next year? Is the 6m gonna hamper them? Wouldve been nice if they were able to buy some more picks (browns/Texans) instead of some of the garbage FA signings over the past few years 

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He got one tackle per day so lets hope it was a good one. Also the same number of lost fumbles from Daniel "The Turnover" Jones.

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The giants wont sign him.  He stinks.

 

In which case they’ll have coughed up a 3 and 5 for a partial year rental in a non-playoff season.

 

I think Gettleman is too prideful to let that be the end of it. He’ll re-sign him. But either way it’s a no-win situation for the Giants. We won that trade in a landslide.

 

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11 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

He had like one sack... a starting DL that you took 6th overall and you would get nothing for him?  So he's not adding anything to the team and he'll lose all value the moment the trade deadline goes.  If your paying him a salary and he's taking up a roster spot... that doesn't sound like a lot of value to me.

I can plainly see you have no interest in actually reading posts you're just intent on flaming, so there's literally no point in responding to yours. 

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12 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

The giants wont sign him.  He stinks.

So why did they trade picks for him this year?

For the playoff push this year?

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10 hours ago, Anthony Jet said:

Was the third round comp definite? Not to familiar with how that system works, also the comp pick would be at the end of the round meanwhile the giants pick will most likely be at the top. How’s there cap look for next year? Is the 6m gonna hamper them? Wouldve been nice if they were able to buy some more picks (browns/Texans) instead of some of the garbage FA signings over the past few years 

Yes the Giants' pick would have been at the top, but it also would have saved like $11MM they wouldn't have paid to Leo for 7 games in 2019. Nobody pays $11MM to upgrade a low 3rd rounder to a high 3rd rounder. I mean one time we saw Cleveland eat $16MM for a then-expected high to middle 2nd round pick a year later, but they were also getting a player that they then figured to at least be a temporary stopgap or backup (but they ended up cutting him in early Sept), and Roster Building the Cleveland Browns Way is hardly one to emulate. 

The answer is once it looked like he was (a) going to cost big bucks to keep; and (b) was not worth that money for the Jets; then at that point get rid of him. Despite claims to the contrary, it's unlikely Leo's peak value was right before the trade deadline. Remember, back pre-draft 2019 optimistic Jets fans were salivating over Leo's potential now that Gregg Williams was the DC. 

It's not that they shouldn't have made that trade once we were in October; it's that we shouldn't have waited that long to move him in the first place. A year earlier they drafted Shepherd; then at the start of FA in March they extended Henry Anderson; then to compound that they already knew before March that they were picking 3rd in a draft where were that slot was >80% likely to have "value" at DT or DE anyway (with a GM obsessed with purported draft grade value more than value to his own team). So yes, you move him. You move him while/before teams are spending crazy money on supposedly lesser FAs than Leo.

No one really went "Holy crap WTF are they crazy?" at Leo's 5th year option amount, because at that time it was presumed a Leo extension would exceed that amount annually. If they can get a 3rd rounder from an eliminated team midseason, yes they could - and should - have had the foresight to get the same or more than that from someone else who badly wanted someone of Leo's skill set (so they wouldn't need to shop for another and/or burn 1st/2nd rounder on a DT-DE), and in the process save $11MM they could have put towards someone actually useful for the team's future. 

It's not an objection to moving him instead of not moving him once the trade deadline was looming; it's just lost value for no good reason when Jets' FO "professionals" should have seen this scenario coming. 

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10 hours ago, RobR said:

Some people here still think he's going too sign a lucrative contract for 15mil + a year and we would have received a third round comp for losing him. 

You know any team that would give him $15 much less $15Mill?

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16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

So why did they trade picks for him this year?

For the playoff push this year?

That 3 from the Giants is looking closer to a 2 every week.  Thanks “Dimes”...and the 5 looking closer to a 4.....I can’t see the Giants signing the guy and the Jets getting a 4.

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3 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

That 3 from the Giants is looking closer to a 2 every week.  Thanks “Dimes”...and the 5 looking closer to a 4.....I can’t see the Giants signing the guy and the Jets getting a 4.

I can't see letting him walk after you traded a 3 & 5 for him.  The 4 at this point is nothing to the Giants to risk, they'll think they can straighten him out

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12 hours ago, phill1c said:

I understand what the problem is: people think every high first-round DT has to be Kris Jenkins and Charles Haley in one. DT is about doing the dirty work, which doesn't always show up on a stat sheet.

Uh they better be. You do not need to use top 10 picks on “dirty work” guys.

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10 hours ago, RobR said:

Some people here still think he's going too sign a lucrative contract for 15mil + a year and we would have received a third round comp for losing him. 

Now? No, of course not. 

But if we let him hit the FA pool in 2019 by rescinding the 5th year option? Yes.

A comp pick would have been based on his contract value as a UFA in March 2019, not a 2020 UFA contract that surely will be much lower (or if the Giants do extend him, what it would have been). That would have been enough to net the Jets a 3rd rounder, and that's just for letting him go, not even for trading him back then.

Leo lost a lot of value in the first half of this year, compounded with losing still more value by underwhelming for the Giants. He played better before this year, plus now everyone can see he didn't get any better with a great-reputation DC coaching him nor with a change of scenery to the Giants, just as he's entered what should be his prime (in a contract year, no less). 

He was on a trajectory towards a $15-18MM/year contract as a (then technically still 24 year-old) UFA with his #6 overall pedigree, 4 years starting experience with generally above-average - even if lesser than initially expected/hoped - play, and playing for the Bowles Jets as his built-in excuse. Even Sheldon Richardson - 4 years older, with all his psycho/personal baggage, and with 3 teams in 3 straight seasons passing on extending him - got $12-13MM/year that'll likely be enough to net Minnesota a 3rd).

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1 hour ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

That 3 from the Giants is looking closer to a 2 every week.  Thanks “Dimes”...and the 5 looking closer to a 4.....I can’t see the Giants signing the guy and the Jets getting a 4.

I just get a kick out of a high 3rd is "really like a 2nd rounder" but a low 2nd rounder is only "really like a 3rd rounder" when trying to rationalize the other way. It's not you; we all do it, lol. 

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13 hours ago, Anthony Jet said:

Was thinking about it this morning

There is no jet employee that was worse at his job I’m all my fandom then MacCagnan, that’s including Idzik, Schotty, And every other fan punching bag , Kotite included. 

Agree.  Man was he terrible.

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4 hours ago, jgb said:
16 hours ago, phill1c said:

 

Uh they better be. You do not need to use top 10 picks on “dirty work” guys.

You do if you don't have one and you need the work done. Dirty work is most important work.

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16 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Amazing how we lost the one pick for years who was you-know-who’s pride and joy best pick, in what should have been his highest-motivation year as a UFA after this season, and on the field the team has missed him less than not at all.

It just sucks that we had to absorb so much of his remaining salary to get mid-round picks for this turd. We paid all but the last 2 weeks of his $13-14MM salary just to pry a couple future mid-round picks. So yes we got back a nice 3rd round pick (plus a mid-rounder in 2021 which has a round lower value for 2020), but it wasn’t a straight-up “free” trade; we bought that 3rd round pick from the Giants for most of his remaining $6MM. 

Should have just rescinded the 5th year option in March, take the 3rd round comp pick in 2020, and saved $11MM in cap room. Never mind the hindsight benefit we’re using: if he got injured in those first 7 weeks (like so many other Jets) we’d have ended up with nothing. 

Disagree...

You're getting - a very high 3rd and a very high 4th (assuming they sign him).  vs. a very low 3rd.

$11mm in the big sceme of things isn't that much anymore.  Would love to have it, but would much rather have a pick in the 3rd round about 30 slots better than the Comp plus that 4th only 3 or 4 places lower than the 3rd round Comp.

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17 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Amazing how we lost the one pick for years who was you-know-who’s pride and joy best pick, in what should have been his highest-motivation year as a UFA after this season, and on the field the team has missed him less than not at all.

It just sucks that we had to absorb so much of his remaining salary to get mid-round picks for this turd. We paid all but the last 2 weeks of his $13-14MM salary just to pry a couple future mid-round picks. So yes we got back a nice 3rd round pick (plus a mid-rounder in 2021 which has a round lower value for 2020), but it wasn’t a straight-up “free” trade; we bought that 3rd round pick from the Giants for most of his remaining $6MM. 

Should have just rescinded the 5th year option in March, take the 3rd round comp pick in 2020, and saved $11MM in cap room. Never mind the hindsight benefit we’re using: if he got injured in those first 7 weeks (like so many other Jets) we’d have ended up with nothing. 

man, the jets should be happy they got anything.  i'm sure most fans overvalued leo in terms of draft picks but the reality is he would've needed to be re-signed and he really wasn't the impact player he should've been at his draft level.  you gotta wonder what the giaints were thinking.

i hear you about the money. if i was an owner or in the team's management i would be too but at the point the trade took place it's not like the jets would net more cap room for next season and the cap numbers or this season have already been set.

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5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Disagree...

You're getting - a very high 3rd and a very high 4th (assuming they sign him).  vs. a very low 3rd.

$11mm in the big sceme of things isn't that much anymore.  Would love to have it, but would much rather have a pick in the 3rd round about 30 slots better than the Comp plus that 4th only 3 or 4 places lower than the 3rd round Comp.

It's not a lot to you, but nobody except the Browns - in a tank season when they're staring at a projected $110MM in cap room - buys a draft pick, and they at least got a 2nd rounder (and oh yeah, the player) in that trade. Also it was so unique, and just a different situation, because the very purpose of the trade was a salary dump; the team giving up the player was also the one who gave up the 2nd round pick. We gave up the player and absorbed salary to get the pick. It's different. 

To suggest it is smart to pay $11MM to upgrade from a late 3rd rounder to a high 3rd rounder will put you in a small minority of GMs. Plus all the practice and game snaps this rebuilding team wasted on Leo from this summer through late October. 

Further, even if the other pick becomes a 4th it not the trade value of a 4th (and certainly not equivalent to a 2020 3rd round comp) since it isn't a 2020 pick. IF the Giants re-sign Leo that pick would be the trade value of a 5th rounder in 2020, and it's too early today to tell whether that'll be a high or a low pick no matter the round. If they decide to cut their losses (like we did with Percy Harvin) then it downgrades to the trade value of a 2020 6th rounder (again, potentially a middle or lower 6th rounder given the weak NFCE). That's closer to a rounding error, and if it was so inherently valuable we couldn't just get another one of those by trading back one slot in round 2 or 2-3 slots in round 3. By the time comp picks are factored in, you're talking about a pick probably between overall slot #150 and #190 a year who's 21 months away from suiting up for the Jets in his first regular season game (if he even makes the team and gameday/active roster). 

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4 minutes ago, rangerous said:

man, the jets should be happy they got anything.  i'm sure most fans overvalued leo in terms of draft picks but the reality is he would've needed to be re-signed and he really wasn't the impact player he should've been at his draft level.  you gotta wonder what the giaints were thinking.

i hear you about the money. if i was an owner or in the team's management i would be too but at the point the trade took place it's not like the jets would net more cap room for next season and the cap numbers or this season have already been set.

Well by the time we were in October I was of course happy they traded him. But what more could - or would - they have done differently if they acted earlier, when they should have, if they had another $14MM in 2019 cap room when FA began? Would we still have headed into this season with nothing more than the same OL additions we made (re-signing Harrison, trading for damaged goods Osemele, and drafting Edoga; an uninspiring group overall, which then indirectly led to the panic spending of another $8MM on Kalil).

Point is only that it's more than just the benefit of another $11MM or $14MM in 2020. It only looks like that today. 

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21 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's not a lot to you, but nobody except the Browns - in a tank season when they're staring at a projected $110MM in cap room - buys a draft pick, and they at least got a 2nd rounder (and oh yeah, the player) in that trade. Also it was so unique, and just a different situation, because the very purpose of the trade was a salary dump; the team giving up the player was also the one who gave up the 2nd round pick. We gave up the player and absorbed salary to get the pick. It's different. 

To suggest it is smart to pay $11MM to upgrade from a late 3rd rounder to a high 3rd rounder will put you in a small minority of GMs. Plus all the practice and game snaps this rebuilding team wasted on Leo from this summer through late October. 

Further, even if the other pick becomes a 4th it not the trade value of a 4th (and certainly not equivalent to a 2020 3rd round comp) since it isn't a 2020 pick. IF the Giants re-sign Leo that pick would be the trade value of a 5th rounder in 2020, and it's too early today to tell whether that'll be a high or a low pick no matter the round. If they decide to cut their losses (like we did with Percy Harvin) then it downgrades to the trade value of a 2020 6th rounder (again, potentially a middle or lower 6th rounder given the weak NFCE). That's closer to a rounding error, and if it was so inherently valuable we couldn't just get another one of those by trading back one slot in round 2 or 2-3 slots in round 3. By the time comp picks are factored in, you're talking about a pick probably between overall slot #150 and #190 a year who's 21 months away from suiting up for the Jets in his first regular season game (if he even makes the team and gameday/active roster). 

I think there is more value to this trade than just high 3rd/low 3rd.  Leo probably would be worth a 3rd rounder.  Richardson was, he got 3 at $12M per, and guys like Trey Flowers and Preston Smith did, but we can't be sure that Williams would get that big of a deal.  There is no guarantee.  If he signed for under $10M, like Golden Tate or Jordan Hicks he'd probably only rate a 4th.  I think that the length of the deal counts too, so a 1-year prove it deal is worth less.  If the Jets just cut bait with him, he'd probably look a bit tainted on the market, no?  The move then would have been to dump him for a 2019 pick, particularly if they had something in place conditional on drafting Quinnen.  Either they thought Gregg Williams could get something out of him, or Maccagnan over-valued the player.  No shock there.

More importantly, we will likely be buyers in FA for 2020.  This move can save us from having to monkey around with the formula - limiting ourselves to cut players, waiting past the deadline, etc.  Worse, he could just end up cancelled out by another high priced FA.  We have cap space.  We have to spend it.  It's not all going to Robby Anderson, though that $11M they wasted probably could have done taken care of Anderson.  Oh well. 

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53 minutes ago, phill1c said:

You do if you don't have one and you need the work done. Dirty work is most important work.

Not debating that you need guys like that. What I am debating is whether you need to use a top 10 pick to get those guys.

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19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's not a lot to you, but nobody except the Browns - in a tank season when they're staring at a projected $110MM in cap room - buys a draft pick, and they at least got a 2nd rounder (and oh yeah, the player) in that trade. Also it was so unique, and just a different situation, because the very purpose of the trade was a salary dump; the team giving up the player was also the one who gave up the 2nd round pick. We gave up the player and absorbed salary to get the pick. It's different. 

To suggest it is smart to pay $11MM to upgrade from a late 3rd rounder to a high 3rd rounder will put you in a small minority of GMs. Plus all the practice and game snaps this rebuilding team wasted on Leo from this summer through late October. 

Further, even if the other pick becomes a 4th it not the trade value of a 4th (and certainly not equivalent to a 2020 3rd round comp) since it isn't a 2020 pick. IF the Giants re-sign Leo that pick would be the trade value of a 5th rounder in 2020, and it's too early today to tell whether that'll be a high or a low pick no matter the round. If they decide to cut their losses (like we did with Percy Harvin) then it downgrades to the trade value of a 2020 6th rounder (again, potentially a middle or lower 6th rounder given the weak NFCE). That's closer to a rounding error, and if it was so inherently valuable we couldn't just get another one of those by trading back one slot in round 2 or 2-3 slots in round 3. By the time comp picks are factored in, you're talking about a pick probably between overall slot #150 and #190 a year who's 21 months away from suiting up for the Jets in his first regular season game (if he even makes the team and gameday/active roster). 

All this is well and good and quite detailed but I think you're over thinking it.

I would rather have and high 3rd and high 4th than two $5.5mm free agents or even one $11mm free agents.  

I watch this team and look at the success rate of those FA's and would rather have a 3rd and 4th round OL than whatever talent we would find in Free agency.

I'll ask you, what's more likely to make this team better? 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

All this is well and good and quite detailed but I think you're over thinking it.

I would rather have and high 3rd and high 4th than two $5.5mm free agents or even one $11mm free agents.  

I watch this team and look at the success rate of those FA's and would rather have a 3rd and 4th round OL than whatever talent we would find in Free agency.

I'll ask you, what's more likely to make this team better? 

 

 

Tom Compton and Kelvin Beachum vs. Chuma Edoga and Brandon Shell?  You tell me.  

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5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I think there is more value to this trade than just high 3rd/low 3rd.  Leo probably would be worth a 3rd rounder.  Richardson was, he got 3 at $12M per, and guys like Trey Flowers and Preston Smith did, but we can't be sure that Williams would get that big of a deal.  There is no guarantee.  If he signed for under $10M, like Golden Tate or Jordan Hicks he'd probably only rate a 4th.  I think that the length of the deal counts too, so a 1-year prove it deal is worth less.  If the Jets just cut bait with him, he'd probably look a bit tainted on the market, no?  The move then would have been to dump him for a 2019 pick, particularly if they had something in place conditional on drafting Quinnen.  Either they thought Gregg Williams could get something out of him, or Maccagnan over-valued the player.  No shock there.

More importantly, we will likely be buyers in FA for 2020.  This move can save us from having to monkey around with the formula - limiting ourselves to cut players, waiting past the deadline, etc.  Worse, he could just end up cancelled out by another high priced FA.  We have cap space.  We have to spend it.  It's not all going to Robby Anderson, though that $11M they wasted probably could have done taken care of Anderson.  Oh well. 

The expectation is he would have gotten enough of an offer from someone else to qualify. If they thought he could be locked up for under $10MM then it seems silly for Macc to pay him $14.2MM for the upcoming season instead of banging out a regular extension for him instead. He was a young, veteran, highly-rated run defender who - while he didn't get a lot of sacks - did get a lot of QB pressures. Also he was still just 24 years old in March and had never missed a game. He'd have gotten paid. 

As far as tainting him, I don't think it would have. We picked 3rd in a draft heavy on DT value up top; so much so we still took a DT even without trading Leo.

Tate was already north of 30, on (or on the cusp of) the expected downswing of his career. Hicks had some significant history missing games every year. 

Understood on the formula, but we're going to have a few players reach UFA status - Robby A you mention; there are others that will qualify as swaps (e.g. if we sign a UFA left tackle, it'll be because we let Beachum go). Also while I did mention just rescinding the option, obviously the better idea would have been to trade him. Let's say he did only have 3rd round value even back then, or 2nd rounder a year later, in exchange for a team getting a full season & offseason from Leo right away. Some could then go with another position in the draft now that they have filled their 34DE/43DT hole with a young veteran.

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45 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

All this is well and good and quite detailed but I think you're over thinking it.

I would rather have and high 3rd and high 4th than two $5.5mm free agents or even one $11mm free agents.  

I watch this team and look at the success rate of those FA's and would rather have a 3rd and 4th round OL than whatever talent we would find in Free agency.

I'll ask you, what's more likely to make this team better? 

The main benefit you're talking about - and one I'm sympathetic towards, mind you - is that the compensation will now be placed in the hands of Douglas rather than Maccagnan.

That doesn't make it good or better value; just that this franchise has been just that dysfunctional. So the rationale is that it's better we took less in return, at a later date, so the prior GM didn't get his grubby paws on them and draft another 3rd rounder who isn't good enough to keep and use for his rookie season (Polite) or 2nd season (Stewart), never mind more cap room for him to spend on FAs/trades (Osemele, Tru Johnson, etc.). 

Actually you may be right. The reason why is terrible, though. ;) 

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13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

In which case they’ll have coughed up a 3 and 5 for a partial year rental in a non-playoff season.

 

I think Gettleman is too prideful to let that be the end of it. He’ll re-sign him. But either way it’s a no-win situation for the Giants. We won that trade in a landslide.

 

Exactly. I can't understand the complaints about this trade.  I totally get the idea that he was a bust for us. Hell I was using him to defend Macc foe a while. I wanted him to succeed as much as anyone. I thought Gregg Williams would give him a huge opportunity to become who we hoped he was. Turns out he actually sucks. So getting a very high 3rd and a 5th(worst case) for him is nothing short of a windfall for the Jets. 

I am one who believes Gettleman will sign him but it will be for less than the $15 mil he's hoping after he checks out the FA opps. He will sign fore 6-8 mil per season and Gettleman will at least be able to say he got him for a bargain.  I'm glad he's gone and look forward to seeing which DT JD takes with the pic lol 

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