The Stick with Darnold Thread

[ZachEY]

3 hours ago, Big_Slick said:

I don't know if it was the absolute worst but, damn, if you're objective you have to admit it was really bad. As in there were very, very few Jets starters that could have started on any other team.

Two years of Idzak and four years of Macc. That's how bad our roster was. Remember taking Jamal at #6 OA when we *needed* a QB. Although at this point I'm glad we passed on DW but passing on Mahomes for a SS? That's who put the Jets roster together. An incompetent bunch of morons.

It may not have been the worst but name a few teams that had worse talent and did better than the Jets the last few years.

I do admit it was really bad.  I was calling for Macc's firing before most on this website.  We're 100% on the same page here.

But, here's the thing.  This is where nuance comes in.

No one was expecting Darnold to lead this roster to the playoffs last year.  No one.  But, if he were good, he'd look like a good QB on a bad team.  Missing open WRs is not because of the roster.  Making poor decisions routinely is not because of the roster.  Throwing YOLO balls is not because of the roster.  Bad footwork is not because of the roster.  Throwing off his back foot is not because of the roster.  Difficulty reading defenses is not because of the roster.  Darnold occasionally makes a crazy, highlight reel play.  What he rarely does is just make good, bread and butter, NFL QB plays (He's ahead of only Trubisky from a clean pocket).

You talk about how bad Macc was, isn't it possible, if not likely, that the horrendous GM also made a mistake at QB, like he screwed up most every other pick?  Isn't it possible, if not likely, that Sam Darnold is another USC QB who doesn't have the skills to play when he's not surrounded by talent that overwhelms the opponent?

[ZachEY]

3 hours ago, Big_Slick said:

Did you watch the last four games of Sam's rookie season?

He was rated at the top of all QB's. He looked like he was a real FQB in the making. Awareness and movement in the pocket, ability to throw accurately on the move both to his his right and while going to his left.

Pre-Gase he looked great. Sam is going to excel in the new offensive system.

 

Pre-Gase, he was the 30+ in DVOA and DYAR and threw for under 200 yards in over half of his games.

I did watch the last 4 games - In two of them, he threw for 170 yards and 167 yards and a combined 1 TD and 1 INT.

He had a great game against Green Bay (terrible defense that year), and a good game against Houston.

Here's what actually happened.  He had a bad rookie season.  But, because he had a great game, and a good game at the end of it, people assumed this was a representation of improvement and a sign of things to come.  A cocktail of recency bias, wishful thinking, and small sample sizes.  They ignored the two duds (50%) he put up post injury as well.  Then, the evil Adam Gase came along, and when Darnold didn't maintain his Houston and Green Bay performances, but rather, performed as he did most of his rookie season, they blamed Gase, rather than accepting the two performances as the anomalies they've proven to be.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

Darnold has shown flashes of what he could be. But its 1 wow play followed by a boneheaded play. He's consistently inconsistent. If we had a better roster when we drafted him, and he recieved better coaching maybe things could have been different. 

But the reality is that he needs a change of scenery. It's in the best interest of both parties to move on. I think the steelers would be a good fit for him.  if he sits on the bench for a year behind big Ben, playing for a good coach like Tomlin,  he could possibly resurrect his career. He's still pretty young. I wish him success wherever he goes. But he won't find it here.

[batman10023]

10 hours ago, neckdemon said:

it is pretty interesting that the tickets have sam darnold on them.......

Explain

[SAR I]

10 hours ago, RoadFan said:

Darnold is not competitive.  He doesn't hate losing.

The great ones DESPISE losing.   They hate losing more than they enjoy winning.

Never once has Darnold displayed that characteristic in any game he has played in 3 years.

Required reading.

SAR I

[clayton163v]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

Pre-Gase, he was the 30+ in DVOA and DYAR and threw for under 200 yards in over half of his games.

I did watch the last 4 games - In two of them, he threw for 170 yards and 167 yards and a combined 1 TD and 1 INT.

He had a great game against Green Bay (terrible defense that year), and a good game against Houston.

Here's what actually happened.  He had a bad rookie season.  But, because he had a great game, and a good game at the end of it, people assumed this was a representation of improvement and a sign of things to come.  A cocktail of recency bias, wishful thinking, and small sample sizes.  They ignored the two duds (50%) he put up post injury as well.  Then, the evil Adam Gase came along, and when Darnold didn't maintain his Houston and Green Bay performances, but rather, performed as he did most of his rookie season, they blamed Gase, rather than accepting the two performances as the anomalies they've proven to be.

With respect, you did not mention Spencer Long.  That is not fair to Sam Darnold and his introduction to the NFL.  With the exception of Sam's second year with Ryan Kalil, it was the worst play by a Center that I have ever seen.  Until a change was made, it was a total fiasco.  Same with year two.  Year three was the receivers.  Fiasco after fiasco. 

Perhaps Sam is beyond redemption, I know that I cannot tell.

[Yucatan Jetfan]

Adam Gase, McCoffee, yeah, this guy has been dealt a.crappy hand. I rather keep him, than giving him away. We can still get a future.3rd round comp pick if he walks away in 2022.
 

Thid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bowles Movement]

16 hours ago, PS17 said:

It seems like more than 75% of sports talking heads are saying “stick with Darnold.” I think the majority of these takes are rooted in the lazy take that Darnold is a good player that’s been ruined by an awful organization that can never do anything right. While the latter point is true, anyone who’s watched the team for more than a couple quarters has seen that Darnold doesn’t see open receivers, consistently makes awful decisions leading to turnovers, has dubious mechanics, and gets hurt every year. He hasn’t improved on any of his flaws dating back to USC. It’s time to start over.

I want to start off by saying that Darnold had a disappointing year last year.

But the reason it was disappointing was because he was so good the second half of his second year.   That isn’t my opinion-he was in the top few in QB ranking the last 7-8 games.

So the now universally stated and accepted narrative that Darnold is broken and can’t be fixed puzzles me.  If Darnold “ can’t see open receivers” , “ consistently makes awfull decisions leading to turnovers”, “and has dubious mechanics”  how did he put together that stretch of elite QB play???

[Jdub03]

At the end of the day there are risks sticking with Sam, and there are risks taking a QB #2. With the new system we are implementing, it fits both QBs strengths.  The logical choice is to have them both compete for the starting role. Yes, it may not be the best use of resources, but QB is the most important resource. We should be able to field a competitive team with the remaining picks these next two years. 

 

[kdels62]

Holy sh*t... a rabbit hole

[kdels62]

 

[NYJ1]

I guess the question is are you more pro Darnold or anti picking QB at #2/Wison
If you had say four choices:
Take Zach Wilson
Trade down to 4 and take Lance/Fields or Jones
Trade down to 8 and keep Sam
Trade down to 8 take a positional player and then target a QB like Mond
Which would you choose?

Trade down to 8 and keep Sammy would be my Choice although that's probably not what JD is going to do.....

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[FidelioJet]

The Jets handled Sam about as badly as a team possibly can.  You can teach a master class on what not to do when drafting a first round QB.  I mean they, literally, did the opposite of what they should have done at almost every turn.

But..

Sam hasn't been good either.  I think most importantly he hasn't gotten better.  Even if he still stunk but was growing, not making the same mistakes or showing some level of consistency.  Maybe he can still turn it around but he just hasn't done enough to make you pass on someone with Wilson's potential.

And...

JD has pretty much completely wiped out all things Mac at this point.  Other than QW this team is starting over.  The right choice is to move on from Sam - start fresh.

Keeping Sam would just be continued poor handling of young QB's.  Does keeping Sam help Zach? Because at this point that's all that should matter.  Make it Wilson's team, the last thing you want is a QB controversy.  Just stupid.

Trade Sam for what you can get and turn the page, move on....start over.

[neckdemon]

14 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The Jets handled Sam about as badly as a team possibly can.  You can teach a master class on what not to do when drafting a first round QB.  I mean they, literally, did the opposite of what they should have done at almost every turn.

But..

Sam hasn't been good either.  I think most importantly he hasn't gotten better.  Even if he still stunk but was growing, not making the same mistakes or showing some level of consistency.  Maybe he can still turn it around but he just hasn't done enough to make you pass on someone with Wilson's potential.

And...

JD has pretty much completely wiped out all things Mac at this point.  Other than QW this team is starting over.  The right choice is to move on from Sam - start fresh.

Keeping Sam would just be continued poor handling of young QB's.  Does keeping Sam help Zach? Because at this point that's all that should matter.  Make it Wilson's team, the last thing you want is a QB controversy.  Just stupid.

Trade Sam for what you can get and turn the page, move on....start over.

disagree. disclaimer: i'm not saying that dranold can or will ever be as good as drew brees, but the situation is very similar. have what looked to be a talented qb who is struggling. albeit brees struggled with 2 hall of fame players to help him (tomlinson and gates). anyway, rivers gets drafted and there is a "qb controversy". this was great for the chargers, not bad. i see a scenario where we draft wilson and keep darnold as a positive, not a negative

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

disagree. disclaimer: i'm not saying that dranold can or will ever be as good as drew brees, but the situation is very similar. have what looked to be a talented qb who is struggling. albeit brees struggled with 2 hall of fame players to help him (tomlinson and gates). anyway, rivers gets drafted and there is a "qb controversy". this was great for the chargers, not bad. i see a scenario where we draft wilson and keep darnold as a positive, not a negative

How was it great for the Chargers?

It was actually awful for the Chargers.  How many championships did they win? Heck, how many playoff games did they win?

They kept the wrong QB.   They made the wrong choice.

Either keep Sam or move on from Sam.

[neckdemon]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

How was it great for the Chargers?

It was actually awful for the Chargers.  How many championships did they win? Heck, how many playoff games did they win?

They kept the wrong QB.   They made the wrong choice.

Either keep Sam or move on from Sam.

well first because they started playing winning football. if you think it was awful for the chargers then you just have an agenda to push your narrative. they also wound up getting a 3rd round pick for him when they didn't re-sign him, which at this point would be just as good as anythign the jets could hope for for darnold right now. makes no sense to trade him for anything less. if wilson wins in trainging camp, great we have a back-up who can step in an win games (remember winning is the goal). if darnold wins and does well we are in a great situation..........

the answer to how many playoff games they won is 5......
they also won their division 5/6 years starting in 2004 and they played in a championship game vs the patriots

this might be more success in 6 years than the jets have had in their entire existence as a franchise (excluding 42 years ago)

[Philc1]

Hes right.  We need to actually build a roster

[Jdub03]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

The Jets handled Sam about as badly as a team possibly can.  You can teach a master class on what not to do when drafting a first round QB.  I mean they, literally, did the opposite of what they should have done at almost every turn.

But..

Sam hasn't been good either.  I think most importantly he hasn't gotten better.  Even if he still stunk but was growing, not making the same mistakes or showing some level of consistency.  Maybe he can still turn it around but he just hasn't done enough to make you pass on someone with Wilson's potential.

And...

JD has pretty much completely wiped out all things Mac at this point.  Other than QW this team is starting over.  The right choice is to move on from Sam - start fresh.

Keeping Sam would just be continued poor handling of young QB's.  Does keeping Sam help Zach? Because at this point that's all that should matter.  Make it Wilson's team, the last thing you want is a QB controversy.  Just stupid.

Trade Sam for what you can get and turn the page, move on....start over.

How would you support ZW if drafted? What would you recommend to Saleh and the staff if they were listening? I know this is large subject, but in terms of the QB room. Are you in favor of competition, and simply would rather another veteran instead of Sam? Would you rather just hand him the keys, give him all the snaps, etc... 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Jdub03
Added clarity to the question.

[FidelioJet]

15 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

well first because they started playing winning football. if you think it was awful for the chargers then you just have an agenda to push your narrative. they also wound up getting a 3rd round pick for him when they didn't re-sign him, which at this point would be just as good as anythign the jets could hope for for darnold right now. makes no sense to trade him for anything less. if wilson wins in trainging camp, great we have a back-up who can step in an win games (remember winning is the goal). if darnold wins and does well we are in a great situation..........

the answer to how many playoff games they won is 5......
they also won their division 5/6 years starting in 2004 and they played in a championship game vs the patriots

this might be more success in 6 years than the jets have had in their entire existence as a franchise (excluding 42 years ago)

I guess where we differ here is I see no upside for the chargers in having kept Brees an extra year. It's not like they got a great pick for keeping him the extra year.

They clearly made the wrong choice (which isn't really the point) but we have no way to know wether it negatively or positively effected Rivers.

If you want to say keeping Brees the extra year didn't cause any problems with Rivers - I can't really argue that point (I really don't know but believe you) but I don't see how it was great for the franchise either.

For me, you can say, at best, it didn't back fire....

I honestly believe the potential negatives far outweigh the positives in keeping Sam around next year.

[FidelioJet]

29 minutes ago, Jdub03 said:

How would you support ZW if drafted? What would you recommend to Saleh and the staff if they were listening? I know this is large subject, but in terms of the QB room. Are you in favor of competition, and simply would rather another veteran instead of Sam? Would you rather just hand him the keys, give him all the snaps, etc... 

If it were me in charge...

I would absolutely have an aging vet in house, a good one at that too.  That vet should be expected to start.  I would have no problem if ZW didn't see the field his entire rookie year.  But ZW should be the focus of the coaching staff, his own QB coach etc. Everything this team does should be about developing ZW.  It is truly the only thing that really matters.  Take the time to do it right.  

I just don't know how bringing Sam back helps Zach.  Just seems counter productive to me.

[Big_Slick]

11 hours ago, TeddEY said:

I do admit it was really bad.  I was calling for Macc's firing before most on this website.  We're 100% on the same page here.

But, here's the thing.  This is where nuance comes in.

No one was expecting Darnold to lead this roster to the playoffs last year.  No one.  But, if he were good, he'd look like a good QB on a bad team.  Missing open WRs is not because of the roster.  Making poor decisions routinely is not because of the roster.  Throwing YOLO balls is not because of the roster.  Bad footwork is not because of the roster.  Throwing off his back foot is not because of the roster.  Difficulty reading defenses is not because of the roster.  Darnold occasionally makes a crazy, highlight reel play.  What he rarely does is just make good, bread and butter, NFL QB plays (He's ahead of only Trubisky from a clean pocket).

You talk about how bad Macc was, isn't it possible, if not likely, that the horrendous GM also made a mistake at QB, like he screwed up most every other pick?  Isn't it possible, if not likely, that Sam Darnold is another USC QB who doesn't have the skills to play when he's not surrounded by talent that overwhelms the opponent?

We just watched the same games and came away with different opinions of what happened. We'll see who was right in the future.

[NYJ1]

16 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Show your work.  The question wasn’t who are QBs that improved after disappointing starts.  The question was, who was the worst QB in the NFL for three years, and then good.

All 3 were the very worst or very close to it. Gannon and Smith certainly seem to fit that mold. You're trying to make a blanket statement about any QB after 3 years. That's 100% BS. It does NOT in any way validate your argument.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

All 3 were the very worst or very close to it. Gannon and Smith certainly seem to fit that mold. You're trying to make a blanket statement about any QB after 3 years. That's 100% BS. It does NOT in any way validate your argument.

My argument is that the QB who plays bad, is bad.  Yours is the one that requires validation.

[ZachEY]

18 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

We just watched the same games and came away with different opinions of what happened. We'll see who was right in the future.

Indeed.  It’s just that what I came away with is in line with what all the objective metrics say, and what you came away with is not.

[ZachEY]

9 hours ago, clayton163v said:

With respect, you did not mention Spencer Long.  That is not fair to Sam Darnold and his introduction to the NFL.  With the exception of Sam's second year with Ryan Kalil, it was the worst play by a Center that I have ever seen.  Until a change was made, it was a total fiasco.  Same with year two.  Year three was the receivers.  Fiasco after fiasco. 

Perhaps Sam is beyond redemption, I know that I cannot tell.

If you remove every Spencer Long bad snap, Sam Darnold was still bad.

It’s not like he was great except for those plays.

Were he, this would be a meaningful argument.

[Jdub03]

35 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I just don't know how bringing Sam back helps Zach.  Just seems counter productive to me.

I think it depends on if you think Zach would be better with a peer his age that's gone through the battles of being a Jets top pick QB and has a legitimate shot to be starter. Sam is the type of guy that would both compete and help his teammate. The veteran route is a good one too. If they go this route, I'm not sure I'd want an aged veteran. @Lith and others have mentioned Nick Mullens, which would be a good choice.

[Embrace the Suck]

11 hours ago, TeddEY said:

I do admit it was really bad.  I was calling for Macc's firing before most on this website.  We're 100% on the same page here.

But, here's the thing.  This is where nuance comes in.

No one was expecting Darnold to lead this roster to the playoffs last year.  No one.  But, if he were good, he'd look like a good QB on a bad team.  Missing open WRs is not because of the roster.  Making poor decisions routinely is not because of the roster.  Throwing YOLO balls is not because of the roster.  Bad footwork is not because of the roster.  Throwing off his back foot is not because of the roster.  Difficulty reading defenses is not because of the roster.  Darnold occasionally makes a crazy, highlight reel play.  What he rarely does is just make good, bread and butter, NFL QB plays (He's ahead of only Trubisky from a clean pocket).

You talk about how bad Macc was, isn't it possible, if not likely, that the horrendous GM also made a mistake at QB, like he screwed up most every other pick?  Isn't it possible, if not likely, that Sam Darnold is another USC QB who doesn't have the skills to play when he's not surrounded by talent that overwhelms the opponent?

[NYJ1]

15 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Sewel is going to be the unexpected big dropper in this draft.

he won't slip past the to 10 even if what you claim is true.

[neckdemon]

52 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I guess where we differ here is I see no upside for the chargers in having kept Brees an extra year. It's not like they got a great pick for keeping him the extra year.

They clearly made the wrong choice (which isn't really the point) but we have no way to know wether it negatively or positively effected Rivers.

If you want to say keeping Brees the extra year didn't cause any problems with Rivers - I can't really argue that point (I really don't know but believe you) but I don't see how it was great for the franchise either.

For me, you can say, at best, it didn't back fire....

I honestly believe the potential negatives far outweigh the positives in keeping Sam around next year.

I mean for me it's fine either way. If they draft Wilson and keep darnold I think it's a good idea. But if they trade him I get the reasoning. 

[FidelioJet]

Just now, Jdub03 said:

I think it depends on if you think Zach would be better with a peer his age that's gone through the battles of being a Jets top pick QB and has a legitimate shot to be starter. Sam is the type of guy that would both compete and help his teammate. The veteran route is a good one too. If they go this route, I'm not sure I'd want an aged veteran. @Lith and others have mentioned Nick Mullens, which would be a good choice.

It's more than just competition, it's about allocation of resources and effort.

Developing Wilson is the ONLY thing that really matters right now. 

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Trade down to 8 and keep Sammy would be my Choice although that's probably not what JD is going to do.....

Sent from my SM-G930VL using JetNation.com mobile app
 

Fair enough. Would be my last choice. The power of a QB under a rookie contract is immense and there is no doubt in my mind that Wilson is better than Sam as a prospect

[zonajetfan]

20 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Looks like a pitiful loser when he throws an interception. Puts his head down and walks to the bench just to get up and throw another one 5 minutes later.

This argument cracks me up. Exactly what reaction are you looking for? You want a QB to throw his helmet or punch the kicking net? Or would it be best to have a brain and try to analyze what went wrong? Now I have no idea if he is doing that mind you and neither does anyone on this board. I can say I personally would prefer a QB to take a measured approach that a "fly off the handle" one.

[zonajetfan]

18 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Fair enough. Would be my last choice. The power of a QB under a rookie contract is immense and there is no doubt in my mind that Wilson is better than Sam as a prospect

Agreed. I have gone back and forth on this, but the rookie contract mindset is a powerful one. He takes Wilson, along with the way he has structured his offseason keeping cap space for the future, he can then build around Wilson while he is cheap. If you look at the entire picture, I believe this is exactly what is happening. Darnold will likely be traded IF the compensation is fair, JD will call everyone's bluff though, to keep face for any future negotiations and keep SD through the summer if needed to get what he thinks is a good deal.

[Patriot Killa]

34 minutes ago, zonajetfan said:

This argument cracks me up. Exactly what reaction are you looking for? You want a QB to throw his helmet or punch the kicking net? Or would it be best to have a brain and try to analyze what went wrong? Now I have no idea if he is doing that mind you and neither does anyone on this board. I can say I personally would prefer a QB to take a measured approach that a "fly off the handle" one.

It cracks you up because you aren’t following what I said very closely. I’m not asking for a guy who needs anger management. I’m asking for a bit of fire. Believe I used the word fire shortly after this post of mine you are quoting. There’s nothing wrong with a little fire or a little physical expression when frustrated. Rally everyone and fight. Lead them in battle.
 

Sam doesn’t do that. I recall watching Mic’d up when Darnold played the Colts. That last 2:00 drive, he sounded so unenthusiastic and dead.

[Patriot Killa]

45 minutes ago, zonajetfan said:

Or would it be best to have a brain and try to analyze what went wrong? Now I have no idea if he is doing that mind you and neither does anyone on this board

Hate to break it to you, but it doesn’t look like there is a brain to be used at all. He makes terrible mistakes, sits on the bench, comes back out, and throws 3 more interceptions.

so you tell me if it even remotely looks like he’s tryin to analyze what went wrong because he just keeps making the same turnovers over & over for the past 3 seasons.
 

Either:

1.) He isn’t analyzing anything, he’s sulking.

2.) He’s trying to analyze but doesn’t have the brain power to figure it out.

3.) Welp, doesn’t matter what he was thinking about on the bench because here comes INT #4 as we speak.