The Stick with Darnold Thread

[T0mShane]

15 minutes ago, genot said:

One of the things that has bothered me for a while is the dogmatic view that.the Darnold detractors have. The view, that if we keep Darnold, he will still be the same QB we've seen the last two years According to you guys, they're only could be one outcome. Enjoy your posts. Respect and understand what you're saying. Honestly, though. Nobody can be that sure about what the outcome will be, if Darnold is back next year.

The logic has evolved this way:

1. The 2021 Jets are far too untalented to trade for Deshaun Watson. We must preserve every pick to sure up the roster.

2. The Jets must draft Zach Wilson, because he (and whomever they pick at 23) are going to be transformative talents who, I guess, can transcend the otherwise talentless 2021 Jets roster. 

3. Also, we cannot trade out of two for a boatload of picks because Zach Wilson (and whomever we pick at 23, I guess) represent exactly enough talent to elevate the otherwise talentless 2021 Jets roster. You cannot trade picks for an established QB, and you cannot, under any circumstances, trade a rookie QB for more picks. Like Goldilocks, you have to have just the right amount of draft picks. 

[NYJ1]

5 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

We go 2-14 again with Darnold looking as lost as ever and he's GONE.  No matter who he drafts.

That's silly. JD just transformed the roster into guys he thinks will be good 2nd and 3rd stringers. He really didn't take many starters? Lawson, Davis, Curry? Those are the only starters I see and the Jets are ALREADY a much more talented team than they were under Mike Macagnan....

[Alka]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Can you name an example of a guy who was the literal worst QB in the league after 3 years of starting and then was good?

How about this?  I will give you the name of a QB who was picked in the 6th round of the draft, then sat on the bench and was labeled the "backup" QB.

After the starter got injured against the Jets, Tom Brady came in and never gave up the starting QB spot.

 

[joewilly12]

Just now, NYJ1 said:

That's silly. JD just transformed the roster into guys he thinks will be good 2nd and 3rd stringers. He really didn't take many starters? Lawson, Davis, Curry? Those are the only starters I see and the Jets are ALREADY a much more talented team than they were under Mike Macagnan....

Most of the free agents JD signed are starters on the NY Jets on other teams well they were free agents. 

[genot]

3 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Can you name an example of a guy who was the literal worst QB in the league after 3 years of starting and then was good?

You're dismissing all of the arguments about why, (possibly), his bottom of the league numbers we're a result of his surrounding talent, the Gase system that was installed, and the Gase factor himself. How much did all those things contribute to his lame stat sheet. I don't know. With respect though. Neither do you, or anyone a part or not a part of this forum 

[FidelioJet]

4 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

Imagine if this actually happens and you are Douglas's shoes this time next year. Coming off a 5-12 record, you now have to move on from Darnold, similar to what the Bears have just done with Trubisky (who actually made the play-offs but whatever).

You're now 14-35 as a GM and on the hot seat. You are picking number 9 in the draft and are seriously considering using multiple first round draft picks to move up for Tyler Shough. 

Fun times. 

The scary thing is, something like this is the most likely outcome.   JD must see this.  
Starting over now is an absolute no brainer.  This was always going to be the choice.   

[JohnnyLV]

28 minutes ago, NYJ1 said:

T. If Joe Douglas continues to draft well he's

Continues to? Last years draft after 1 year is looking very suspect and how many of his FA moves have worked out? He is a work in progress, too little at this point to label as good or bad.

[PS17]

3 minutes ago, Alka said:

How about this?  I will give you the name of a QB who was picked in the 6th round of the draft, then sat on the bench and was labeled the "backup" QB.

After the starter got injured against the Jets, Tom Brady came in and never gave up the starting QB spot.

 

A once in a lifetime fluke. Great strawman.

[Jet_Engine1]

43 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Looks like a pitiful loser when he throws an interception. Puts his head down and walks to the bench just to get up and throw another one 5 minutes later.

Could you imagine what Marino, Brady, Manning,  Rodgers,  or any of the other great QBs would be screaming at their O lines if they had been half as bad as Darnold was behind?

 

What does Sam do? Pick himself off the turf, shrug, and tell Spencer Long, Winters, Beachum,  Lewis, etc., "Good try buddy! We'll get 'em next time..."

 ? 

[FidelioJet]

28 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

Dude, I want Darnold gone as bad as anyone.  I thought JD would have unloaded the JAG by now.  Going this long with him still on the roster scares me.  

He’ll be traded.  
JD seems to have a stubborn streak with trades.   I suspect he overplayed his hand early and now has to wait until the draft.  He’ll sit and wait until a team that needs a QB values Sam (and his contractual difficulties) over whatever QB is available in the late first or second.

We want an early and long run on QB’s.  The faster those top 5 are gone the more value we’ll get for Sam.  

[ZachEY]

9 minutes ago, Alka said:

How about this?  I will give you the name of a QB who was picked in the 6th round of the draft, then sat on the bench and was labeled the "backup" QB.

After the starter got injured against the Jets, Tom Brady came in and never gave up the starting QB spot.

 

Relevance?

[Grandy]

13 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

Imagine if this actually happens and you are Douglas's shoes this time next year. Coming off a 5-12 record, you now have to move on from Darnold, similar to what the Bears have just done with Trubisky (who actually made the play-offs but whatever).

You're now 14-35 as a GM and on the hot seat. You are picking number 9 in the draft and are seriously considering using multiple first round draft picks to move up for Tyler Shough. 

Fun times. 

We have a chance to leave QB purgatory, or go head first right back into it. We have the #2 pick in a QB heavy draft while we have a somewhat promising yet ultimately bottom barrel QB. I'm good with either Wilson, Fields, or Lance. Just not sticking with Darnold, and staying at 2.

It's not terribly difficult unless we get an absurd RGIII like package for 2.

 

[oatmeal]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

He’ll be traded.  
JD seems to have a stubborn streak with trades.   I suspect he overplayed his hand early and now has to wait until the draft.  He’ll sit and wait until a team that needs a QB values Sam (and his contractual difficulties) over whatever QB is available in the late first or second.

We want an early and long run on QB’s.  The faster those top 4 are gone the more value we’ll get for Sam.  

But damn if you think about it we might have to wait until Mond or Trask are gone 

[NYJ1]

12 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Serious question: If the Jets were trading down don't you think it would have happened already?

PFF by the way has an interesting take on this. They say the best to build a team is to draft the highest paid players early in the draft, because the salaries are so inexpensive compared to an established player.

This is the most true for a QB. The slotted QB salary is so low that it has the equivalence in terms of building team talent of 4 additional players. It makes sense if you think about it the average long term QB makes around $25 to $30 million dollars

So in the PFF analysis the 49ers trade almost always works out better for 49ers. I think it was around 70% in favor of the 49ers.

So the Jets since they have the #2 pick already have an overwhelming amount of value for that pick and far greater than any package we would get for #2. And not even close. Even if Wilson is the same as what Sam could be the Jets are FAR ahead. And with his skills he could be elite. Sam never ever will be                                                                                                                                              

I do believe that the circumstances surrounding the draft would make most people think the Jets are taking Zach Wilson at 2. Yes I do. But I don't believe that's necessarily guaranteed either. I'll freely admit I don't think the Jets are going to stick with Sammy. I just think they should and I'm not alone on that Island....

[Jetty]

20 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

I think that we should keep Sam & Draft a QB like Wilson!

But where is this idea that Darnold be competitive come from

Please listen to the clip starting from 5:08

 

Of course Sam Darnold’s offseason coach will have glowing reviews. What do you expect him to say? 
 

I go by what I see.

[FidelioJet]

I’m curious. Did Bart Scott like the 49ers move?
I mean they could have had Sam for a second (on a even cheaper contract than the Jets) and kept three years of first.  
Essentially the same thing as the Jets keeping Sam and trading down   

why is it okay for the Jets to stick with him but no other team wants him for a second round pick?

[ZachEY]

9 minutes ago, genot said:

You're dismissing all of the arguments about why, (possibly), his bottom of the league numbers we're a result of his surrounding talent, the Gase system that was installed, and the Gase factor himself. How much did all those things contribute to his lame stat sheet. I don't know. With respect though. Neither do you, or anyone a part or not a part of this forum 

I’m actually controlling for them.

Unless your argument is that the Jets over the last three years are by far the worst team of all time, then Darnold’s situation is not unique.  So, there should be examples of QBs being the worst in the league for 3 years, and then not.

[Patriot Killa]

28 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Could you imagine what Marino, Brady, Manning,  Rodgers,  or any of the other great QBs would be screaming at their O lines if they had been half as bad as Darnold was behind?

 

What does Sam do? Pick himself off the turf, shrug, and tell Spencer Long, Winters, Beachum,  Lewis, etc., "Good try buddy! We'll get 'em next time..."

 ? 

It’s not a mandatory quality in successful QB’s, but I’d like for the next starting QB of the New York Jets to be a bit more fiery and pissed off when things aren’t going right.

[Grandy]

I still find it telling that teams wont fork up a pick that would be used on a Trask, Mond, or Mills in exchange for Darnold who is supposedly a beloved project. 

[Big_Slick]

14 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

"I can't wait" is a figure of speech you muppet. 

Your post literally says "I can't wait until we keep Sam, he throws two idiotic red zone interceptions on opening day".

When called out on it you resort to name calling.

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

But damn if you think about it we might have to wait until Mond or Trask are gone 

I have to believe Sam will win the battle over those two.  But I could surely be wrong.  Not a good sign for Sam’s film. 

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Most of the free agents JD signed are starters on the NY Jets on other teams well they were free agents. 

Disgusted that JD only signed free agents who were free agents #SMDH

[oatmeal]

Just now, Grandy said:

I still find it telling that teams wont fork up a pick that would be used on a Trask, Mond, or Mills in exchange for Darnold who is supposedly a beloved project. 

We might have to wait until those second tier guys go so we can get max value for Darnold 

yikes ?

[Alka]

10 minutes ago, PS17 said:

A once in a lifetime fluke. Great strawman.

How about Kurt Warner, who went undrafted out of college and had to play 2 years in the Arena League before becoming a great Superbowl winning QB and a All-Pro?

[RoadFan]

24 minutes ago, Alka said:

I disagree with you.  Let me explain.  I am a very competitive person, and I hate losing.  But, if you put me in a situation where I feel that I have no chance to win, then I lose my emotional edge, and it appears that I don't care.  

I used to be a very competitive tennis player in high school.  I was #1 on my team for 2 years, and ranked 3rd in my county.  When I played someone who was in my league, whether they were better than me or equal to me, then that brought out the best in me.  If I lost, it would haunt me for years, and I would never get over it.

Although it rarely happened, I had to play someone a couple of times that I was unable to compete against, because that person was technically far superior to me, and while I hated to lose to those players, it appeared that I wasn't that upset, even though I was.

I think the same is true for Sam.  He's got garbage coaching, garbage wide receivers, garbage offensive line, garbage primary running back, who should have retired before last year in Gore.

How upset should he appear to be?  If he blames anyone but himself, it appears that he is not a leader and doesn't have the backs of his players.  

I don't blame Darnold; I blame the organization for putting him in this horrible situation.

Think of other QBs put in bad situations.  Mediocre QBs.  Even some bad QBs.  I am sure you will come up with a handful that inspired the team to a comeback win down 14-0 early or something like that.  A second half charge.

Darnold. Not once.  It's just not there.

[NYJ1]

18 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Most of the free agents JD signed are starters on the NY Jets on other teams well they were free agents. 

That's only because the Jets roster sucks and has so many holes. He's looking to acquire STARTERS in the draft....

[kdels62]

14 minutes ago, genot said:

You're dismissing all of the arguments about why, (possibly), his bottom of the league numbers we're a result of his surrounding talent, the Gase system that was installed, and the Gase factor himself. How much did all those things contribute to his lame stat sheet. I don't know. With respect though. Neither do you, or anyone a part or not a part of this forum 

Idk

Flacco: 6 TDs in 4 games, 6.3 adjusted yards/attempt, 5% sack rate, 2.2% interception percentage, 80.6 passer rating 

Darnold: 9 TDs in 12 games, 5.2 adjusted yards/attempt, 8.8% sack rate, 3.0 interception percentage, 72.7 passer rating

 

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, Grandy said:

I still find it telling that teams wont fork up a pick that would be used on a Trask, Mond, or Mills in exchange for Darnold who is supposedly a beloved project. 

I think you might see this happen on draft day. Someone might be holding on hoping one of the other guys drop to them.  QB’s are going 1;2,3 for sure. But then there can be a drop for the other 2.  
 

After those top 5 - that’s where I would guess is Sam’s market. 

[Alka]

6 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

It’s no a mandatory quality in successful QB’s, but I’d like for the next starting QB of the New York Jets to be a bit more fiery and pissed off when things aren’t going right.

I'm with you on that!  

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

Your post literally says "I can't wait until we keep Sam, he throws two idiotic red zone interceptions on opening day".

When called out on it you resort to name calling.

Oh wow. You must be a riot at parties.

i will be rooting for the Jets, regardless of what crappy QB is taking snaps. Feel better? 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, playtowinthegame said:

Zach Wilson is only 2 years younger than Darnold and he has legitimate durability concerns, especially at the NFL level. I can see why there are those in the Jets building who are against betting (their careers) on Zach's shoulders shouldering the load of a 17 game season in the NFL.

 

He’s been saying this, consistently since mid season.  This isn’t shocking 

[NYJ1]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Disgusted that JD only signed free agents who were free agents #SMDH

Lol Yeah,  that f*&^ing sucks. Joe Douglas should be FIRED for that.....

[Jetstream]

I'm in the give up on Sam camp....mainly because of the money it'll probably take to even see if these coaches and added talent can make him better.   That said, can anyone say that any of the QB's will definitely be better???  Can using this high pick get you a good QB but make you sacrifice making the team around them better???

Possibly the best approach is to use the pick and Sam's lackluster play to try to get Sam and agent to agree on a team friendly extension, without that getting out to the public before the draft.... and draft day take the best deal you can get for #2 and try to stay in the top 10 to see if you can get the offensive lineman or Pitts....   But either way Joe Douglas' career relies on  this decision... 

 

[genot]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I’m actually controlling for them.

Unless your argument is that the Jets over the last three years are by far the worst team of all time, then Darnold’s situation is not unique.  So, there should be examples of QBs being the worst in the league for 3 years, and then not.

Jet's have been really bad the last two years with Gase. Bad offense. No help from the defense. Especially forcing turnovers. Bad field position. It's been an all around nightmare. We've had teams in the past that lost a lot of games. There was something always to hang your hat on. Some stud on offense or defense to watch play on Sundays.

[JohnnyLV]

20 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

I think that we should keep Sam & Draft a QB like Wilson!

But where is this idea that Darnold be competitive come from

Please listen to the clip starting from 5:08

 

Jordan could be right, Brees was pretty bad until his 3rd year and then got way better.  But the vast majority of QBs that have 3 bad years have a bad 4th year. San is going into year 4 and by Total QBR he was 28th, 25th and 33rd in the NFL.. Remember we played the NFC East in his second season and had one of the easiest schedules in the NFL

So as Douglas you have to say is the odds of Sam becoming good, and the level of the team > Zach Wilson and 3 less draft picks.

Qbase has Zach at 70% to be a good QB, with like 30% to be top tier or elite. What odds would you give Sam of even being good? 25% Elite? Seems like close to Zero.

Seems an easy call to select Wilson.

Also, some people are saying "build the team first" Well the Jets still have 8 picks in next 2 drafts within the first three rounds and 3 first round picks. If we didn't even have the #2 pick we would be in good shape to build the team through the draft.

But what if Sam sucks again. Jets are screwed and not really in a much better place than if Zach sucks. Unless we want to retread a Mariota or something like that we likely need to trade up losing all those picks we got for Wilson anyway,

In my view, just playing the odds taking Wilson is as big of a no brainer as you can have in the NFL