MIKE WHITE

[genot]

50 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Yep. It is wild that they don’t seem to have a short yardage package with White, which is funny because LaFleur always called run plays when Zach Wilson was in those goal to go situations. 

He threw away most of his playbook with Wilson. Now he's a little too pass happy because he has a QB who understand everything he has in that book

[Dunnie]

He has a 43.2 QBR in his second season. And I’m the bot?

All I am getting at is that your panties have been in a bunch of Zach in nearly every post you make .. I have your posting history to prove it.

Get some new material brah.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Integrity28]

59 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’ve seen that mentioned in a few places, that Zach “avoids sacks.” I think people have that impression because Zach faced a lot of pressures (36% of his dropbacks) because he held the ball so long, so fans give him extra credit for mostly negating problems that he, himself, created in the first place. 

This all day.

[bitonti]

46 minutes ago, genot said:

He threw away most of his playbook with Wilson. Now he's a little too pass happy because he has a QB who understand everything he has in that book

Mike Lefleur is a decent playcaller, and the system is pretty good. 

It's not like we are in the dark days of Paul Hackett or Brian Schottenheimer over here 

people say he should run more, behind what? one of the league's most expensive and terrible o-lines? they are running as much as they can 

the NFL in 2022 the pass opens up the run. It's not 1922 with teams running the wishbone 

those who are looking at the OC as the reason why this team is struggling are just looking for a scapegoat

this team is where it is because the QB position isn't good enough and the OL isn't good enough and that all leads back to Joe Douglas

 

[JustInFudge]

13 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Mike Lefleur is a decent playcaller, and the system is pretty good. 

It's not like we are in the dark days of Paul Hackett or Brian Schottenheimer over here 

people say he should run more, behind what? one of the league's most expensive and terrible o-lines? they are running as much as they can 

the NFL in 2022 the pass opens up the run. It's not 1922 with teams running the wishbone 

those who are looking at the OC as the reason why this team is struggling are just looking for a scapegoat

this team is where it is because the QB position isn't good enough and the OL isn't good enough and that all leads back to Joe Douglas

 

Are you going to pay for the Fire Joe Douglas banner this time? 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Even though I agree that he creates those problems, he is good at escaping the rush.  But I can't think of a "signature play" where he avoided a heavy rush and then made a big play.  I remember a lot of throws out-of-bounds.

PFF keeps a stat that tracks the percentage of pressures that turn into sacks. Zach—who faces a higher volume of pressures because he holds the ball forever—gets sacked on 19.8% of his pressured dropbacks. Mike White’s number is 18.5%.
 

Why people think Zach is better at avoiding sacks is because he’s under pressure on twice as many dropbacks as Mike White, so there are simply a higher quantity of examples of Zach avoiding pressure. White’s problem isn’t mobility, it’s that he’s in the pocket and if they get A-gap pressure right away, White is standing there five yards beyond where he took the snap—if you can get to him in under 2.5 seconds, you got yourself a sack. Here’s the Milano sack from Sunday, as explained by Cimini—McGovern goes to double Ed Oliver and Milano gets a free run up the middle. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmFY3WYpYw_/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

PFF keeps a stat that tracks the percentage of pressures that turn into sacks. Zach—who faces a higher volume of pressures because he holds the ball forever—gets sacked on 19.8% of his pressured dropbacks. Mike White’s number is 18.5%.
 

Why people think Zach is better at avoiding sacks is because he’s under pressure on twice as many dropbacks as Mike White, so there are simply a higher quantity of examples of Zach avoiding pressure. White’s problem isn’t mobility, it’s that he’s in the pocket and if they get A-gap pressure right away, White is standing there five yards beyond where he took the snap—if you can get to him in under 2.5 seconds, you got yourself a sack. Here’s the Milano sack from Sunday, as explained by Cimini—McGovern goes to double Ed Oliver and Milano gets a free run up the middle. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CmFY3WYpYw_/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

It’s the type of plays that result in sacks.  When white gets sacked it’s usually b/c someone missed an assignment early and he had no choice, and didn’t get a chance to throw the ball away.  Wilson can often avoid the early pressure, but then gets sacked when he runs around.  Plus he turns it over more.  

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, Lith said:

And sometimes when he has avoided sacks, running around like a chicken with his head cut off in the pocket, he has ended up throwing picks.  I think he has thrown two when trying to throw the ball away.  Good QBs avoid sacks, keep their eyes downfield and make plays.  When Zach avoids sacks, more often than not it is to throw the ball away and he does not always do that well.

Absolutely, the trouble with Zach’s running around is that he lacks a plan or the instincts for what to do after he breaks away from the pressure, so all the chicken-dancing is for naught. Mahomes—who similarly likes to run around in the backfield—faces pressure at roughly the same rate as Zach, but his sack% on those plays is half as much and his productivity under pressure is, as you’d expect, exponentially higher. 

[T0mShane]

Just now, Augustiniak said:

It’s the type of plays that result in sacks.  When white gets sacked it’s usually b/c someone missed an assignment early and he had no choice, and didn’t get a chance to throw the ball away.  Wilson can often avoid the early pressure, but then gets sacked when he runs around.  Plus he turns it over more.  

Yep. Blitzing Zach Wilson was almost guaranteed to pay off for the defense. He was simply awful against it

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

Mike Lefleur is a decent playcaller, and the system is pretty good. 

It's not like we are in the dark days of Paul Hackett or Brian Schottenheimer over here 

people say he should run more, behind what? one of the league's most expensive and terrible o-lines? they are running as much as they can 

the NFL in 2022 the pass opens up the run. It's not 1922 with teams running the wishbone 

those who are looking at the OC as the reason why this team is struggling are just looking for a scapegoat

this team is where it is because the QB position isn't good enough and the OL isn't good enough and that all leads back to Joe Douglas

JD missed on the QB, to be sure.

The O Line is as much bad luck as anything, just a huge number of injuries.

The talent on the roster is still massively better than it was just 2 years ago.

[T0mShane]

 

[Matt39]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

 

Can we maybe activate Robinson so we can use him in short yardage/red zone? Carter is not an early down player. 

[Barry McCockinner]

 

[T0mShane]

18 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Can we maybe activate Robinson so we can use him in short yardage/red zone? Carter is not an early down player. 

+1. Herbig and Tomlinson are supposed to be good run blockers, too. Feels like if they can mix in some power running game, the offense could break out. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

27 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

 

Hmmmmm this seems like an OC problem, IMO. 

League avg is 1.94. Mahommes - 2.75

I get these guys aren't Elite talent but fact that you can't reach the league average...coaches gotta take a hit too.

[T0mShane]

7 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Hmmmmm this seems like an OC problem, IMO. 

League avg is 1.94. Mahommes - 2.75

I get these guys aren't Elite talent but fact that you can't reach the league average...coaches gotta take a hit too.

I had to read those numbers a few times because I figured Zach’s numbers would be the highest, but damn. Awful all around

[Beerfish]

Some of the reasoning here is just beyond bizarre.  Mike White just gets trucked in the pocket, Zac Wilson doesn't.  In the fairy land around here Mike White gets trucked because the offensive line who loves him 100times more than wilson doesn't block for him.  It must be the case becasue he never holds the ball unlike Wilson.

Just another in a long line of metrics people twist because they love Mike White and hate Zac Wilson.  Zac Wilson is more mobile, avoids sacks and big pressure better, end of story.  Just like Zac Wilson is very good at avoiding turnovers, he does not have an interception problem he is very good at not fumbling.

Those two things Wilson does very well, White should still be the starter to the end of the year because he does some important things much better than Wilson but people just to me look lame when on very single metric they  paint White to be some kind of Hero and Wilson to be trash.  That is simply not the case.

 

[Beerfish]

As for Mangini, all he sees is....100 year old vet he must be the best alternative.  He is dead wrong.  Flacco in his wha tthree plays last game badly hurt is with the fumble, and has thrown picks in other games. 

Wilson should be the back up and only  go in if White Gets hurt, or failing that yeah i'd put strevler ahead of flacco,

[Hal N of Provo]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I had to read those numbers a few times because I figured Zach’s numbers would be the highest, but damn. Awful all around

Yes I’d have expected better for Zach.  White has the Bears game on there.  The last 2 games have been bad for him too particularly in the 1st half.   
 

MLF?  Seems way to conservative until he’s forced out of it and then he goes right into gimmicks.  

[Creepy Lurker]

49 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

 

This has been a struggle all year. Especially starting off slow. That’s an indictment on the OL getting settled in and the OC.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

7 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Some of the reasoning here is just beyond bizarre.  Mike White just gets trucked in the pocket, Zac Wilson doesn't.  In the fairy land around here Mike White gets trucked because the offensive line who loves him 100times more than wilson doesn't block for him.  It must be the case becasue he never holds the ball unlike Wilson.

Just another in a long line of metrics people twist because they love Mike White and hate Zac Wilson.  Zac Wilson is more mobile, avoids sacks and big pressure better, end of story.  Just like Zac Wilson is very good at avoiding turnovers, he does not have an interception problem he is very good at not fumbling.

Those two things Wilson does very well, White should still be the starter to the end of the year because he does some important things much better than Wilson but people just to me look lame when on very single metric they  paint White to be some kind of Hero and Wilson to be trash.  That is simply not the case.

In the end...

Wilson was missing too many easy lay up throws. 

White, right now, is making those throws. 

Both have faults, but that's the primary reason why we're watching White and will continue for the rest of the season.

 

 

[Creepy Lurker]

43 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Can we maybe activate Robinson so we can use him in short yardage/red zone? Carter is not an early down player. 

I don’t know what Carter is anymore besides hot garbage. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

4 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Yes I’d have expected better for Zach.  White has the Bears game on there.  The last 2 games have been bad for him too particularly in the 1st half.   
 

MLF?  Seems way to conservative until he’s forced out of it and then he goes right into gimmicks.  

He's scared of his QBs and thinks he has to play it safe 80 percent of the drives. Too scared to go for the 1st down on 3rd and longs. Too many motions/sweeps instead of lining up and playing. Plays horizontal in the red zone way too often. Misuses the talent all over the field. 

List is long for MLF. 

[slimjasi]

31 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

 

To think we once called this guy "Mangenius"

wow

[Creepy Lurker]

23 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Hmmmmm this seems like an OC problem, IMO. 

League avg is 1.94. Mahommes - 2.75

I get these guys aren't Elite talent but fact that you can't reach the league average...coaches gotta take a hit too.

Plus Greg the Leg has done his part to add to these numbers. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

6 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I don’t know what Carter is anymore besides hot garbage. 

5 yards on 5 carries won’t cut it

Maybe his ankle wasn’t right

But in that case they should have played Ty Johnson

[Creepy Lurker]

11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

As for Mangini, all he sees is....100 year old vet he must be the best alternative.  He is dead wrong.  Flacco in his wha tthree plays last game badly hurt is with the fumble, and has thrown picks in other games. 

Wilson should be the back up and only  go in if White Gets hurt, or failing that yeah i'd put strevler ahead of flacco,

I get why people are saying Flacco as backup despite being trash. If the Jets are truly trying to help Zach “reset” and learn fundamentals from scratch, throwing him back into live action so soon would undermine that. He legitimately needs a complete overhaul and the GM/coaching staff handled him completely incorrectly. They didn’t recognize what he was so they could develop him properly. It seems unfair to Wilson and disingenuous to put him back out there at all until next year. 

[PS17]

10 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

In the end...

Wilson was missing too many easy lay up throws. 

White, right now, is making those throws. 

Both have faults, but that's the primary reason why we're watching White and will continue for the rest of the season.

 

 

It’s that simple. Wilson sucks at passing. White doesn’t. 

[Beerfish]

9 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

I get why people are saying Flacco as backup despite being trash. If the Jets are truly trying to help Zach “reset” and learn fundamentals from scratch, throwing him back into live action so soon would undermine that. He legitimately needs a complete overhaul and the GM/coaching staff handled him completely incorrectly. They didn’t recognize what he was so they could develop him properly. It seems unfair to Wilson and disingenuous to put him back out there at all until next year. 

Fine, Next up is Streveler, Flacco is straight up trash.

[Creepy Lurker]

Just now, Beerfish said:

Fine, Next up is Streveler, Flacco is straight up trash.

Anyone but Flacco and Zack. I don’t know what’s going on exactly. I’m just assuming that’s the reason and it makes sense. What do you think? I’m honestly confused by the Zach situation but it may just be way worse than we thought and they are honestly trying to rebuild him from scratch. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Absolutely, the trouble with Zach’s running around is that he lacks a plan or the instincts for what to do after he breaks away from the pressure, so all the chicken-dancing is for naught. Mahomes—who similarly likes to run around in the backfield—faces pressure at roughly the same rate as Zach, but his sack% on those plays is half as much and his productivity under pressure is, as you’d expect, exponentially higher. 

Absolutely

Even on plays where he sort of stays in the pocket, his eyes drop.  he’s more concerned with self-preservation than with making a play 

Wish I had the all-22 of the play ZW was sacked in the pocket in Denver 

Berrios was as wide open as you’ll ever see any WR deep around the left hash 

he started on the right side and ran a deep over

Denver busted the coverage

BB was directly in ZW’s sight line except the QB’s eyes were on the rush

Would have been a 60+ yard walk in TD

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Some of the reasoning here is just beyond bizarre.  Mike White just gets trucked in the pocket, Zac Wilson doesn't.  In the fairy land around here Mike White gets trucked because the offensive line who loves him 100times more than wilson doesn't block for him.  It must be the case becasue he never holds the ball unlike Wilson.

Just another in a long line of metrics people twist because they love Mike White and hate Zac Wilson.  Zac Wilson is more mobile, avoids sacks and big pressure better, end of story.  Just like Zac Wilson is very good at avoiding turnovers, he does not have an interception problem he is very good at not fumbling.

Those two things Wilson does very well, White should still be the starter to the end of the year because he does some important things much better than Wilson but people just to me look lame when on very single metric they  paint White to be some kind of Hero and Wilson to be trash.  That is simply not the case.

 

You have a point, but I think you might be pushing it.  It seems like sometimes, Wilson avoids pressure better because he concentrates on avoiding pressure instead of completing passes. The offensive line generally seems to do a better job for White IMO because they know where the pocket is.  It is not some constantly morphing area.  

Wilson only threw picks in two games, but he has 5.  White has 2, but one was a ball that bounced off of Corey Davis and the other the Hail Mary.  They each have one fumble.  I get that these things don't make White a hero and Wilson trash, but I don't see Wilson as any less turnover prone.  WIlson's sack percentage is actually way higher, so I don't see how he is putting his mobility to good use.

 

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, chirorob said:

JD missed on the QB, to be sure.

The O Line is as much bad luck as anything, just a huge number of injuries.

The talent on the roster is still massively better than it was just 2 years ago.

Sauce can be a Revis and Garrett Wilson can be davonte Adams but without QB and LT none of that matters 

The line by the way was not just bad luck it was bad drafting and mediocre signings 

[bitonti]

4 hours ago, JiFields said:

Are you going to pay for the Fire Joe Douglas banner this time? 

He won't be fired but he won't get a 2nd contract either 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Some of the reasoning here is just beyond bizarre.  Mike White just gets trucked in the pocket, Zac Wilson doesn't.  In the fairy land around here Mike White gets trucked because the offensive line who loves him 100times more than wilson doesn't block for him.  It must be the case becasue he never holds the ball unlike Wilson.

Just another in a long line of metrics people twist because they love Mike White and hate Zac Wilson.  Zac Wilson is more mobile, avoids sacks and big pressure better, end of story.  Just like Zac Wilson is very good at avoiding turnovers, he does not have an interception problem he is very good at not fumbling.

Those two things Wilson does very well, White should still be the starter to the end of the year because he does some important things much better than Wilson but people just to me look lame when on very single metric they  paint White to be some kind of Hero and Wilson to be trash.  That is simply not the case.

 

White IS a hero and you will learn that in the end.

He’s made 6 starts in this league.  6.  We’re just scratching the surface of what White’s gonna do here.  

Just as you were wrong about Joe Douglas, you’ll be on the wrong side of history on this one.