Should we really be this worried about Macc's ability?

[MDL_JET]

7 minutes ago, HessStation said:

I don't know. I mean Petty wasn't a bad  gamble in the 4th. The Hackenberg pick is the problem as the 2nd round is that weird area where ok, maybe that's why they didn't take a Qb in the first last year? 3 years in a row? And taking two young ladies back to back year that early? It's just weird. And they both seem to suck. And there's just no dominant picks anywhere to boot yet. I guess we'll see on Williams and Adams...but even that...non premium positions w nothing around them.its just ugly.

Hey. Jaguars defense didn’t become dominant until their GM in his 4th year made all the right picks. And they still didn’t come together until the following year when he added even better FA peices to compliment. They kept adding peices. Even after some bust. I don’t even the majority of his first draft is on the team anymore. Patience! Jets fans would’ve ran him out of town by that draft after 3 years of Bortles. 

[Sonny Werblin]

It's very hard to hit on a QB after the first round. It rarely happens, even with 2d round selections. So, you can't really blame Mac for Petty and Hack, the odds we're stacked against them ever becoming a starter.

There is a much higher success rate for first round QBs. I think Mac is (probably) up to the task.

[HessStation]

39 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Hey. Jaguars defense didn’t become dominant until their GM in his 4th year made all the right picks. And they still didn’t come together until the following year when he added even better FA peices to compliment. They kept adding peices. Even after some bust. I don’t even the majority of his first draft is on the team anymore. Patience! Jets fans would’ve ran him out of town by that draft after 3 years of Bortles. 

Except in

2014, Caldwell's second year, he draft Telvin Smith, an all pro, in the 5th, Linder, a pro bowl G/C, in the 3rd, Colvin,  still decent depth and on the team, in the in the 4th, and Lee starting WR and Robinson, a pro bowler in the 2nd and Bortels who's still the starting Qb. And gets Allen Hurns as an UDFA

2015 Fowler gets hurt but has a good comeback this year, Yeldon is still rushing 100 yard games as a backup, Cann who's their starting RG and really good in the 3rd.

2016 he nailed it with the first three picks with Ramsey, Jack and  Ngakour

2017 Fourette is a beast, Robinson is their starting LT, Smoot, Dede and Brown are all on the roster 

...those are 4 legit drafts. His second year he drafted  3 pro bowlers, 1 all pro, and 7 starters. He nailed Y4 so here's hopkng for the best 

... in 4 years Caldwell drafted 3 starting stud OL, 1 top tier WR and 2 very good starting WRs, and elite RB, and Elite LB, a stud DL, and an elite CB.

[rangerous]

4 hours ago, BCJet said:

The article isnt saying that.  

Im a Mac supporter for the most part, but the article is basically providing 10+ years of examples of organizations where Mac has worked who have drafted and missed on QBs.  

What I hope Mac does, and I dont feel confident about this - but hope is all we have, is that he realizes that drafting the big, strong-armed guy doesnt work and he completely reverses field and takes Baker Mayfield who checks all the other boxes besides height and weight.  I can live with the Hackenberg mistake as long as Mac learns from it.  

Plus, if Im Mac and I take Mayfield, he misses and I get fired at least I can explain that decision in future scouting dept interviews by saying I evaluated my past mistakes and tried to go in another direction.  If he whiffs on Hack and then does the exact same thing with Allen and gets fired, then he should never sniff a job higher then area scout ever again.

okay.  clearly the pressure is on mac to get a qb for now and into the future.  but right now, if he does want to get cousins he will have to jet woody or his bro on board since it's their money.  as for the college draft, it appears that darnold and rosen are the glamor guys with mayfield and allen close behind.  i'm not quite sure where all of allen in comparison to hack is coming from.  i guess we'll find out how he scores at the combine and go from there.  and, i don't think having an arm is the be all end all.  most college qb's have good enough arms.  even chaddy was able to air it out when he wanted to.  and watson was supposed to have below average velocity.  how'd he work out.

[varjet]

I had said before MacBowles was extended that extending them was the right move in The Big Picture, but they needed to get Macc a boss to help him with the Draft and FAs so he does not screw it up. 

Since then there have been a number of analyses, on this site and others (TOTJ did a good one), which basically (but nicely) show Mac's drafting to be very weak.  

The Johnsons need to find a Coughlin to save Mac (and us) from himself (Mac).

[varjet]

2 hours ago, varjet said:

Hopefully Stewart turns out to be good and the Jets draft Price.  Price could be a fitter version of Mangold.  

oh.. I just saw a Mock where Price was picked 13th in the FIRST round.  He is going to skyrocket.  The Jets are not getting him in the Second Round.

[Jetsplayer21]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

He loves Rosen. I love Rosen.

Good enough for me. 

Todd Bowles didn’t want Rosen. Winning two extra games in a sh*t season meant so much more to him ?

[kevinc855]

Ehh so many of these guys it’s a crap shoot. You never know how a kid is Gona play at this level till he well plays. We had busts at 1 and Brady in the 6th round but you heard all those examples before...

[Charlie Brown]

4 hours ago, varjet said:

How can Mayfield be worse than Petty or Fitz?

Your whole post was excellent but this last point says it all.....

[MDL_JET]

1 hour ago, HessStation said:

Except in

2014, Caldwell's second year, he draft Telvin Smith, an all pro, in the 5th, Linder, a pro bowl G/C, in the 3rd, Colvin,  still decent depth and on the team, in the in the 4th, and Lee starting WR and Robinson, a pro bowler in the 2nd and Bortels who's still the starting Qb. And gets Allen Hurns as an UDFA

2015 Fowler gets hurt but has a good comeback this year, Yeldon is still rushing 100 yard games as a backup, Cann who's their starting RG and really good in the 3rd.

2016 he nailed it with the first three picks with Ramsey, Jack and  Ngakour

2017 Fourette is a beast, Robinson is their starting LT, Smoot, Dede and Brown are all on the roster 

...those are 4 legit drafts. His second year he drafted  3 pro bowlers, 1 all pro, and 7 starters. He nailed Y4 so here's hopkng for the best 

... in 4 years Caldwell drafted 3 starting stud OL, 1 top tier WR and 2 very good starting WRs, and elite RB, and Elite LB, a stud DL, and an elite CB.

My point was even after 3 years he was being questioned. He had failures among the good picks. Guys didn’t develop till later as well. Things weren’t as clear as they are now but they knew it would be 4-5 year plan at the least. But here jets fans are expecting things to be turned around by the 3rd year and especially at the toughest position of the whole team. They have peices to build on, just let it keep growing. 

[southparkcpa]

2 hours ago, Paradis said:

He loves Rosen. I love Rosen.

Good enough for me. 

No homo????

[HessStation]

38 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

My point was even after 3 years he was being questioned. He had failures among the good picks. Guys didn’t develop till later as well. Things weren’t as clear as they are now but they knew it would be 4-5 year plan at the least. But here jets fans are expecting things to be turned around by the 3rd year and especially at the toughest position of the whole team. They have peices to build on, just let it keep growing. 

I hear ya. But Robinson was a Pro Bowler in his second year. Smith was a Defensive Player of Week as a rookie, was a top 100 player in his second year and an all pro by his third year.  Linder made the Pro Bowl his rookie year as a guard and then was ranked 3rd best Center in Football per PFF by his 3rd year. That's your 2nd, 4th and 5th round picks all paying big divdends quickly in his second draft as the GM...while developing the first round QB. Add to that Hurns as a UDFA. And Lee coming along slowly with injuries early in his career. 

This is all in just year 2 of Caldwell as GM.

...And now consider that he was on the hot seat even with that kind of early success in his second draft. 

Maccagnan

Year 1 may only have 1 of 6 players drafted still on an NFL roster by next year. Granted Williams may turn out to be a Pro Bowl caliber player.  Caldwell had a bad first draft too and missed on Joekel where Mac seems to have gotted it right with Williams. However Mac played it safe with BPA and Caldwell went more on need. None the less, is what it is. 

Year 2 Burris and Shell are most likely depth-fringe players, Lee is a borderline starter and Jenkins seems like a solid starter. There are no pro bowl caliber players from this draft to date. Keep in mind, in comparison, Caldwell had 3 players playing at a pro bowl caliber in their rookie/second season from his second draft

Year 3 Way too soon to tell and Adams has the potential to be a pro bowl caliber player, Maye looks like he should be a solid starter. Everyone else who knows.

To your point though, Caldwell really hit on some big additions, in Year 4 and 5 as GM. What could end up 5 elite, dominant players in 2 drafts. 

...here's hoping for the same from Maccaggnan

[adb280z]

5 hours ago, BCJet said:

 

What I hope Mac does, and I dont feel confident about this - but hope is all we have, is that he realizes that drafting the big, strong-armed guy doesnt work and he completely reverses field and takes Baker Mayfield who checks all the other boxes besides height and weight.  I can live with the Hackenberg mistake as long as Mac learns from it.  

 

Mayfield doesn't check all the boxes.  He plays in offense that isn't exactly NFL ready, he doesn't even attempt to pre-snap read the defense.  He's also got some red flags as far as his personality.

[ScarletKnight89]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Goff, Wentz, Trubisky, Mahomes and Watson were not available for the teams that drafted them to take.  Yet they all got their man.  We waited and got Hackenberg.  

I get that but we don't know if Macc tried and just simply couldn't. I can't understand why would penalize a guy from not going from 16 to 1 or 2 in a draft when we don't know how hard he may or may not have tried to do it. And we don't know enough about Mahomes and Watson yet.

[HessStation]

3 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

FIRE Mike Maccagnan BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. 

I'll say this and now even diving into Caldwell's drafts today. Maccaggnan needs to hit big this draft and not on just one freaking player. He needs to come away with like 3 dominant pro bowl caliber studs.

[Pac]

No matter how many times the premise of this article is proven wrong, people still buy into the nonsense and work themselves up into a lather.

The truth is in 3 years the only QB's Macc has passed on that he had a chance to draft were Dak (who everyone passed on 3 times), Watson, and Mahomes.

McCown just had a better statistical season than Dak, Watson was a great fantasy player who won 1 game this year, and Mahomes couldn't supplant a choke artist JAG QB.

There's your indisputable proof... 

 

[dbatesman]

3 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

FIRE Mike Maccagnan BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. 

Joe, can you elaborate on this

[Gas2No99]

27 minutes ago, HessStation said:

I'll say this and now even diving into Caldwell's drafts today. Maccaggnan needs to hit big this draft and not on just one freaking player. He needs to come away with like 3 dominant pro bowl caliber studs.

Netting 3 "Dominant Pro Bowl-caliber Studs" in this draft is asking a bit much, but possible. Mac needs to find IMPACT players that can see the field IMMEDIATELY due to their size, talent, speed, etc but mainly YOUTH. 

The EASIEST way for him to hit on players who can do that would SIMPLY be drafting OFFENSIVE SKILL & OLine players. Considering the DEARTH of talent currently on the offensive roster, ANY infusion of YOUTH and SPEED on offense would be MUCH more impactful in improving the team immediately. Shell and McGuire were OBVIOUS upgrades to the offense the last 2 years in terms of depth and cost. Drafting another RB, a OT, and a TE in the first 3 rounds would DRASTICALLY improve the performance of this Morton WCO (besides QB obviously).

Mac needs to draft players that CONTRIBUTE! Devon Smith, Mauldin, J Harrison, Dion Simon, Hackenberg, Charone Peake, Jordan Leggett, have not contributed. 

Our '16 7th round Punter from Australia has had MORE of an impact than the aforementioned players. 

The offense has been neglected for so long, by merely drafting offense early Mac can redeem his rep because those rookies would contribute and improve upon the incumbents. Ardarious Stewart was disappointing, but Chad Hanson came on late with increased playing time and rendered Kerley irrelevant and released. 

 

Would Bowles PLAY the rookies? That's another conversation for another night . . .  

[Smashmouth]

6 hours ago, dbatesman said:

I think this is true to some extent, but there are ways to improve your odds and Maccagnan hasn't taken advantage of a single one.

There are ways to improve odds but they come at a cost as well and other than Watson which was a miss for more than a few teams not many QB's coming out have been that sure bet (to give up a ton of picks) like a Peyton Manning. Its a tough call and even though some of these QB's are excelling in other systems does not mean they would have fared well here as well. 

I think he will get someone this year lets hope its the right call. I dont fault him for a 4th round pick on Petty who turned out to be crap yet was prolific in college nor do I worry so much about the second on Hack who we have not even seen yet/

[jgb]

5 hours ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Everybody gets lucky once in a while, Mac is definitely due..

Did you just play the "we are due" card? As a Jets Fan? 

[jgb]

4 hours ago, MDL_JET said:

SF passed on them as well. These guys weren’t locks to go top 10, everyone had questions about each one. They were not seen as no brainers, otherwise I would think SF would have taken one 2nd and not traded out and pass again. 

If the standard to judge a GM is "does he pass on no-brainers," I think I'm qualified to be a GM.

[Warfish]

Quote

It doesn't matter how if he gets the job done.

Yeah, it actually does.

[Jetsplayer21]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Did you just play the "we are due" card? As a Jets Fan? 

No I said Mac is due. Jets are cursed ?

[Fantasy Island]

I am very confident Mac will **** it up because he hasn't disappointed us yet.  The fact he is our GM shows how little Woody knows about football.

[Patriot Killa]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

If the standard to judge a GM is "does he pass on no-brainers," I think I'm qualified to be a GM.

Would you of found Robby Anderson and pulled a trade off for Kearse and a 2nd though??

[jgb]

Just now, Patriot Killa said:

Would you of found Robby Anderson and pulled a trade off for Kearse and a 2nd though??

no way, which is why the defense of "well he hasn't passed on any no-brainers" won't get @MDL_JET into the debate club hall of fame   

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Would you of found Robby Anderson and pulled a trade off for Kearse and a 2nd though??

Yeah cuz 2 moves make up for almost all

of the rest of his draft picks sucking and bad contracts for Revis, Wilkerson, Fitz and Forte.  

[Philc1]

11 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Goff, Wentz, Trubisky, Mahomes and Watson were not available for the teams that drafted them to take.  Yet they all got their man.  We waited and got Hackenberg.  

Not only did Macc whiff on both Hackenberg and Petty he passed on Watson or trading up for Wentz because of them.  Would you rather have Wentz or Lee, Hack and Jordan Jenkins on our roster?  Try offering that trade to Philly today

[Patriot Killa]

14 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Yeah cuz 2 moves make up for almost all

of the rest of his draft picks sucking and bad contracts for Revis, Wilkerson, Fitz and Forte.  

You want JT Barrett, you can’t sarcastically respond to me ever again.?

[long suffering jets fan]

14 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

It is basically hoping the decision isn't in his hands and can't ignore prospect is there with the pick. The real problem is that he misses, it's at least 3 years with the QB before taking a real shot at another one. You'll have two more years of mac and bowles and then they'll throw out the coaching staff laying the defacto blame on them (right or wrong) and a new coaching staff will come and have their 1 year try with him before trying again. 

So whatever QB he chooses in the draft, if it's a miss then 3 tears down the drain. That is what makes me worry he'll think he can solve it through free agency..

That's why we should sign Cousins.  Draft is a crapshoot.

[Philc1]

31 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

You want JT Barrett, you can’t sarcastically respond to me ever again.?

And JT Barret will be a way better pro than any qb ever drafted by your hero Macagnan 

[nyjunc]

so we are crediting him w/ Heath Shuler and Gus Frerotte(who turned into a decent QB by the way)?  we didn't put our future in Bryce or Hack, he took chances which is something you need to do.  There haven't been many real "can't miss" QBs through the years so in many ways when you find one it's luck.

It's hard to find a big time QB.  A lot of luck is involved.  The greatest QB of all time was a 6th rd pick, drafted in hopes he could someday be a decent backup QB. the 2nd best QB of all time was a 3rd rd pick.  Aaron Rodgers fell to late 1st, Brees was a 2nd rounder meanwhile Tim Couch was #1 overall, Akili Smith was top 3, David Carr was 1 overall as was Jamarcus Russell.  of the 8 playoff teams:

NE- drafted QB 6th rd(Gio Carmazzi, tee Martin and Spergon Wynn were among QBs selected before Brady)

Pitt: drafted QB 11th overall(2 QBs drafted were drafted top 4 and Ben is miles better than either)

Buf: FA

KC: trade

Ten: drafted #2 overall

Jax: drafted #3 overall but is being run out of town

Phi: drafted 2 overall but he's hurt

LA: drafted 1 overall and looks for real

Min: FA

NO: FA

Car: drafted 1 overall

Atl: drafted 3rd overall

 

5 of 12 teams drafted a QB in top 5, none of those guys have a SB ring yet.

 

if it was easy every team would have a great QB.

 

 

[T0mShane]

10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

so we are crediting him w/ Heath Shuler and Gus Frerotte(who turned into a decent QB by the way)?  we didn't put our future in Bryce or Hack, he took chances which is something you need to do.  There haven't been many real "can't miss" QBs through the years so in many ways when you find one it's luck.

It's hard to find a big time QB.  A lot of luck is involved.  The greatest QB of all time was a 6th rd pick, drafted in hopes he could someday be a decent backup QB. the 2nd best QB of all time was a 3rd rd pick.  Aaron Rodgers fell to late 1st, Brees was a 2nd rounder meanwhile Tim Couch was #1 overall, Akili Smith was top 3, David Carr was 1 overall as was Jamarcus Russell.  of the 8 playoff teams:

NE- drafted QB 6th rd(Gio Carmazzi, tee Martin and Spergon Wynn were among QBs selected before Brady)

Pitt: drafted QB 11th overall(2 QBs drafted were drafted top 4 and Ben is miles better than either)

Buf: FA

KC: trade

Ten: drafted #2 overall

Jax: drafted #3 overall but is being run out of town

Phi: drafted 2 overall but he's hurt

LA: drafted 1 overall and looks for real

Min: FA

NO: FA

Car: drafted 1 overall

Atl: drafted 3rd overall

 

5 of 12 teams drafted a QB in top 5, none of those guys have a SB ring yet.

 

if it was easy every team would have a great QB.

 

 

I think the larger issue is that he doesn’t find good players in general, particularly at QB, CB, C, and pass rusher. Kinda problematic during an alleged rebuild. 

[Patriot Killa]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

And JT Barret will be a way better pro than any qb ever drafted by your hero Macagnan 

JT will be a way better pro at flipping burgers

[jack48]

15 hours ago, HessStation said:

He's been horrible. I've been pretty tolerant with a wait and see approach, haven't really got on him, wanted to give him at least three years. And horrible, just horrible to this point. 

the whole management setup is horrible