Debate - Bell vs Coleman

[DonCorleone]

6 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

I assume you mean offensive line. If so, an awesome line. It has the potential to last longer. It will help Sam long term and bad lines can make great RBs look average while a really good line can make average RBs look a lot better.

I'm with you. Thanks for the exchange. 

[jgb]

Why not both I don’t trust Coleman to play a 16 game season and Bell would need a breather also

[derp]

If the Jets have enough money to:

-Sign a backup QB

-Sign 1-2 NFL caliber WR's so they don't go into the draft with Charone Peake as their WR3

-Sign a starting caliber LG and C

-Sign RT insurance in case Shell is not healthy

-Sign a starting caliber defensive lineman so Folo Fatukasi (as one of only 3 DL on the roster right now) is not starting heading into the draft

-Sign another DL so they don't go into the draft with 4 DL. Possibly someone who can start over Shepherd.

-Sign a starting caliber edge rusher

-Sign 1-2 NFL caliber corners so Rashard Robinson, Derrick Jones, and Parry Nickerson are not the only corners besides Trumaine Johnson with NFL experience

-Sign a kicker

...and sign Bell on top of that, then sure I'd like to have Bell on the roster. I'm skeptical which is why I think they end up going Coleman. I'd probably prioritize a second edge rusher over Bell too.

Obviously not all of those things more important than RB. But they all need to happen - with or without the RB. And they all will cost money.

This. Roster. Is. Decimated. It's what happens when you draft poorly. They literally need to add almost 30 NFL caliber players to the roster between free agency and six draft picks.

When the roster is this bad I'm okay not spending $17M on a running back who sat out a year and had a backup step into his role and not have production at the position fall off a cliff. 

[Thai Jet]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Why not both I don’t trust Coleman to play a 16 game season and Bell would need a breather also

With so many other roster holes I think the Jets could spend their money more wisely than giving it to that knucklehead Bell.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Thai Jet said:

With so many other roster holes I think the Jets could spend their money more wisely than giving it to that knucklehead Bell.

Completely understand your view but I still predict we are pretty significantly under the cap yet again especially if we don’t land Bell

[CTJetsFan]

11 minutes ago, Stark said:

For the cost I see and get your point.

At least in Bell's case he has shown the ability. Coleman kind of wasted his opportunity this year when he became the top RB. Coleman had a pretty good receiving core this year, no? Julio, Ridley, Sanu and a solid QB. I mention this because people will use the "Steeler's Oline is amazing and he had Antonio Brown to keep Defense from playing the run". But.. Bell was one of the top RB's after contact. All in all Bell is just flat out a better player. Bell should have a solid 4 years left at least. This is when Sam is cheapest. 

Point being paying Lev Bell now would be better than when we are paying Sam $200 Mil. Gives Sam a safety net, gives Gase a playmaker, should free up some room for Robby and Q, don't forget Herndon. Its a guarantee that we address offensive line so the "offensive" line is a problem could be corrected and 2 positions maybe 3 could be addressed in FA.

C - Paradis, Morse

G - Saffold (rumored the JETS are going to persue)

RT? - Daryl Williams

LT? Trent Brown

 

Addressing the Oline (above) the C, G is going to help whoever is the RB. 

Just on name and performance I lean Bell, its not my money and I think he adds more to the offense than Coleman. Like I said I am not losing any sleep over this and will be fine if they don't sign Bell, but I can see where a GM and Staff would like to have this type of top performer.

You bring up  a good point. I didn't watch a lot of Falcons games so I'll take your word.  Just looking at Coleman's game stats from last year, it does seem to show what looks like boom or bust production. You would have thought, given that offense, he would have showed better with Freeman out. Only had 1 100 yard + running game after week 2.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

Tevin Coleman is not even better than isaiah Crowell. 

What's there to debate

Bell is infinetly better. People just don't want to spend 15 million on a rb

[nyjbuddy]

 

Not sure Coleman is a significant upgrade over Crowell.  Production-wise, Crowell has the same or better rushing statistics (overall) and better pass catching statistics (catch percentage, targets, receptions).  Coleman is a better receiver in the red zone and yards per reception but Coleman has more fumbles on fewer touches.  

 

Crowell is the typical 1st/2nd down back with receiving abilities, while Coleman is a third-down receiving back with limited experience being a workhorse back. 

Crowell's attitude sucks which gives Coleman a big advantage, but their on-field production is similar.

Here are their average stats laid out over a 16 game season:

	Rush	Yds	TD	Y/A	Tgt	Rec	Yds	TD	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	Fmb
Tevin Coleman	150.9	668.6	5.1	4.4	38.3	26.3	288.6	3.1	68.66	177.1	3.8	957.1	2.0
Isaiah Crowell	182.9	790.2	5.6	4.3	33.0	24.3	191.6	0.2	73.58	207.2	3.8	981.8	1.2

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

34 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

If you had a choice between Bell and an awesome line, which would you pick? 

Why do people think signing bell  means you cannot fix the o line in FA. We 102 million in cap space. We can sign Bell and any offensive lineman that you want. 

If jets signed bell for 15 mill a year the jets would still have more cap space than 30 other teams. This should be a no brainer

[CTJetsFan]

4 minutes ago, nyjbuddy said:

 

Not sure Coleman is a significant upgrade over Crowell.  Production-wise, Crowell has the same or better rushing statistics (overall) and better pass catching statistics (catch percentage, targets, receptions).  Coleman is a better receiver in the red zone and yards per reception but Coleman has more fumbles on fewer touches.  

 

Crowell is the typical 1st/2nd down back with receiving abilities, while Coleman is a third-down receiving back with limited experience being a workhorse back. 

Crowell's attitude sucks which gives Coleman a big advantage, but their on-field production is similar.

Here are their average stats laid out over a 16 game season:

	Rush	Yds	TD	Y/A	Tgt	Rec	Yds	TD	Ctch%	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	Fmb
Tevin Coleman	150.9	668.6	5.1	4.4	38.3	26.3	288.6	3.1	68.66	177.1	3.8	957.1	2.0
Isaiah Crowell	182.9	790.2	5.6	4.3	33.0	24.3	191.6	0.2	73.58	207.2	3.8	981.8	1.2

Thanks for posting. Definitely gives a different perspective on Coleman

[Barry McCockinner]

5 minutes ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Why do people think signing bell  means you cannot fix the o line in FA. We 102 million in cap space. We can sign Bell and any offensive lineman that you want. 

If jets signed bell for 15 mill a year the jets would still have more cap space than 30 other teams. This should be a no brainer

It seems like a lot of people want the Jets to be frugal and sign a bunch of average players so they don't have to give out any big contracts in free agency. As if salaries are coming out of their own pay checks or something. Then when the team blows it's the coaches fault.

It's maddening. We need some dawgs.

[Patriot Killa]

6 minutes ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Why do people think signing bell  means you cannot fix the o line in FA. We 102 million in cap space. We can sign Bell and any offensive lineman that you want. 

If jets signed bell for 15 mill a year the jets would still have more cap space than 30 other teams. This should be a no brainer

Lol exactly.

[Untouchable]

7 minutes ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Why do people think signing bell  means you cannot fix the o line in FA. We 102 million in cap space. We can sign Bell and any offensive lineman that you want. 

If jets signed bell for 15 mill a year the jets would still have more cap space than 30 other teams. This should be a no brainer

I don’t get it either.

The Jets have more than enough cash to sign Bell, bring in a combo of Saffold and Paradis/Morse along the OL, and still have plenty left over to add a passrusher and re-sign a couple of guys like Claiborne, Roberts, etc.

Adding Bell in no way prevents the Jets from upgrading the offensive line.

 

[jgb]

52 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

When I said smarter, I was referring to cost/benefit. I don't want to pay Bell for what he was in Pitt, but for what he could be for us in the next 3-4 years. Will he give 2x the production (based on asking for about 2x more $) than Coleman could during that period? I'm not sure about that

Flaw in this thinking is that the relationship between production and value is not linear.

[Adoni Beast]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

Not sure that is realistic. Mark Ingram is probably not going to a team for a 1 year deal. He'd probably just take a 1 year deal to stay in N.O.

My guess would also be that both Coleman and Ingram sign a similar deal in terms of $$$. 

Probably true. But we can make it a 1 year guarenteed $ deal.

[FidelioJet]

36 minutes ago, derp said:

If the Jets have enough money to:

-Sign a backup QB

-Sign 1-2 NFL caliber WR's so they don't go into the draft with Charone Peake as their WR3

-Sign a starting caliber LG and C

-Sign RT insurance in case Shell is not healthy

-Sign a starting caliber defensive lineman so Folo Fatukasi (as one of only 3 DL on the roster right now) is not starting heading into the draft

-Sign another DL so they don't go into the draft with 4 DL. Possibly someone who can start over Shepherd.

-Sign a starting caliber edge rusher

-Sign 1-2 NFL caliber corners so Rashard Robinson, Derrick Jones, and Parry Nickerson are not the only corners besides Trumaine Johnson with NFL experience

-Sign a kicker

...and sign Bell on top of that, then sure I'd like to have Bell on the roster. I'm skeptical which is why I think they end up going Coleman. I'd probably prioritize a second edge rusher over Bell too.

Obviously not all of those things more important than RB. But they all need to happen - with or without the RB. And they all will cost money.

This. Roster. Is. Decimated. It's what happens when you draft poorly. They literally need to add almost 30 NFL caliber players to the roster between free agency and six draft picks.

When the roster is this bad I'm okay not spending $17M on a running back who sat out a year and had a backup step into his role and not have production at the position fall off a cliff. 

So what you want is a team that consist of zero guys that scare any team, of zero guys that any team has to game plan around.  Zero guys that can actually have a true impact on the game.

You need playmakers, Bell is a playmakers and it's a fluke he's become available.

There's a legit NFL impact player available in FA - in his prime - in a year the Jets have money to spend and most Jet fans want to pass on him.

I think this team has been devoid of talent for so long that Jet fans don't actually understand what it's like to have good players.

You do whatever you can to get him - he's the priority.

[Jethead]

I like Coleman but all Leveon costs is $ and Woody has more than plenty. Deal can be structured for 3 years and still have more than enough for any other signings (center, guard, edge)  the Jets want to make. 

Adding a weapon like Bell will do more for Sam than any other move the Jets can make. We need weapons!!!

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Untouchable said:

Coleman has yet to prove that he can even be an every down back.

And I don’t buy that he only wants $5 million a year. Why would he be seeking essentially half of what the 49ers just gave a guy like Jerick McKinnon last offseason? 

If Bell is healthy, he’s arguably the best RB in the game. Certainly Top 3.

He’s an extremely patient runner who can break it outside or between the tackles, catches the ball better than any RB since Marshall Faulk, and is adept in pass protection.

Players like Bell in their prime rarely hit the free agent market. Players like Coleman make it there every year.

///end thread 

[UntouchableCrew]

I'd opt for neither, honestly. 

A massive contract for Bell just doesn't make sense... And Coleman just isn't very good, IMO. His production in a very good offense just wasn't impressive.

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Yes to the $100 million prima Donna who got his stats because teams were constantly in nickel and dime to stop Antonio

It's statements like this that make me think you never actually saw him play. 

Forget about his stats - they're irrelevant. 

Look at the way he runs, the way he catches the ball out of the backfield.  

it's obvious when you watch him play that he's not a system RB - he's a legit threat and well worth whatever we'll have to get him.

[JustInFudge]

Bilal Powell is better than Coleman.

[Jet Life]

1 hour ago, Patriot Killa said:

He sure hasn’t proven a thing. You couldn’t make this guy your lead back. You’d be making yourself pick RB in the draft. That’s half way filling a hole. And for what? We have money. Look at Tevin Coleman here...

 

Paying Coleman would be an awful move. The answer is Bell

[peekskill68]

26 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So what you want is a team that consist of zero guys that scare any team, of zero guys that any team has to game plan around.  Zero guys that can actually have a true impact on the game.

You need playmakers, Bell is a playmakers and it's a fluke he's become available.

There's a legit NFL impact player available in FA - in his prime - in a year the Jets have money to spend and most Jet fans want to pass on him.

I think this team has been devoid of talent for so long that Jet fans don't actually understand what it's like to have good players.

You do whatever you can to get him - he's the priority.

+100  I've come around and see it your way.  The Jets have been suffering from TMJ for far too long...

Too Many Jags...

 

[derp]

19 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

So what you want is a team that consist of zero guys that scare any team, of zero guys that any team has to game plan around.  Zero guys that can actually have a true impact on the game.

You need playmakers, Bell is a playmakers and it's a fluke he's become available.

There's a legit NFL impact player available in FA - in his prime - in a year the Jets have money to spend and most Jet fans want to pass on him.

I think this team has been devoid of talent for so long that Jet fans don't actually understand what it's like to have good players.

You do whatever you can to get him - he's the priority.

Yup that’s exactly what I said.

All else equal, I’d like to have Bell. I think he’s a good player.

I’m not saying you sign all of that before Bell. But I think they need to have a plan to do all of that and sign Bell if they want. If they do, fine. I’m okay cutting corners in some spots if they think it’ll help Darnold. But I think the roster is too thin to sign him and figure the rest out later. And I don’t think he’s this panacea people seem to think he is. Think he comes with a lot of risk.

I struggle with a $17M a year deal that takes a RB with a high volume history who was willing to sit out a year ago past age 30.

Particuarly when his backup was one of the more productive backs in the league after replacing him.

I think Conner’s production, Bell sitting out last year, and Gurley’s injury are going to make Bell’s market interesting, particularly when he turned down $14M from the Steelers a year ago.

I think the Jets have a terrible roster, desperately need to improve the offensive line, have to bring in some edge rush, need to improve the DL and WR groups, and overall need to sign like 25 free agents this year to fill out a roster.

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Gurley deal looks pretty dumb right now. It always looks dumb about five minutes after somebody forgets you don't give running backs second contracts. Neither of these guys is gonna be worth the money he gets, especially if it's from us.

You don't give RBs second contacts? 

Curtis Martin and a whole lot of RBs all say hi

[Jet_Engine1]

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Looking forward to the thread debating cheese burger vs. filet mignon.

Filet Mignon is overrated. Give me a Ribeye any day...

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You don't give RBs second contacts? 

Curtis Martin and a whole lot of RBs all say hi

If what you're trying to say is that not only is it a good idea to give running backs fat second contracts, giving up two draft picks for the privilege is a totally great way to build a team, then say that and I can laugh at how dumb it is. Don't tell me some guy says hi and make me guess.

[Stark]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

For the cost I see and get your point.

At least in Bell's case he has shown the ability. Coleman kind of wasted his opportunity this year when he became the top RB with Freeman injured. Coleman had a pretty good receiving core this year, no? Julio, Ridley, Sanu and a solid QB. I mention this because people will use the "Steeler's Oline is amazing and he had Antonio Brown to keep Defense from playing the run". But.. Bell was one of the top RB's after contact. All in all Bell is just flat out a better player. Bell should have a solid 4 years left at least. This is when Sam is cheapest. 

Point being paying Lev Bell now would be better than when we are paying Sam $200 Mil. Gives Sam a safety net, gives Gase a playmaker, should free up some room for Robby and Q, don't forget Herndon. Its a guarantee that we address offensive line so the "offensive" line is a problem could be corrected and 2 positions maybe 3 could be addressed in FA.

C - Paradis, Morse

G - Saffold (rumored the JETS are going to persue)

RT? - Daryl Williams

LT? Trent Brown

 

Addressing the Oline (above) the C, G is going to help whoever is the RB. 

Just on name and performance I lean Bell, its not my money and I think he adds more to the offense than Coleman. Like I said I am not losing any sleep over this and will be fine if they don't sign Bell, but I can see where a GM and Staff would like to have this type of top performer.

 

1 hour ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Why do people think signing bell  means you cannot fix the o line in FA. We 102 million in cap space. We can sign Bell and any offensive lineman that you want. 

If jets signed bell for 15 mill a year the jets would still have more cap space than 30 other teams. This should be a no brainer

 

1 hour ago, Untouchable said:

I don’t get it either.

The Jets have more than enough cash to sign Bell, bring in a combo of Saffold and Paradis/Morse along the OL, and still have plenty left over to add a passrusher and re-sign a couple of guys like Claiborne, Roberts, etc.

Adding Bell in no way prevents the Jets from upgrading the offensive line.

 

It's like we are all 3 thinking the exact same thing. Nice posts and I agree with you both, as my quote above proves.

I'm in...

Give me Bell, some new olineman and lets go.

[CTJetsFan]

Lots of good points made. Thanks for the replies.

Is Bell a better RB than Coleman at this point? Yes

Will signing Coleman significantly move the needle for our offense? Probably not.

Are there a lot of RBs with similar production to Coleman (JAGs)? Yes

Would signing Bell improve our offense? Yes

With that being said, it got me thinking about the RB position and its value in general.

A lot of HOF RBs in my lifetime (ex. OJ, Dickerson, Sanders, LT, etc) never got to a Super Bowl, or got there and didn't win (ex. Martin).

A lot of great RBs and possibly future HOFers (AP, Zeke, Gore) haven't either.

Barkley had an amazing season for the Giants last year and was on a team with Beckham Jr. and they still are drafting 6th.

Bell - for all of his greatness and playing in a high powered offense with a potential HOF QB and WR hasn't been able to carry his team to a SB.

On the other hand, the Pats have won 6 SBs and I can't think of one HOF or possible HOF RB on any of those teams (Corey Dillon being the highest in career yardage).

I guess I just don't value RBs or the RB position as much as others. I'm on board with using an early pick (2nd round w/tradedown or a 3rd) on trying to land the next Kamara or Hunt. IMO, I'd rather see us spread the cap $ to improve more positions vs trying to hit a home run on 1.

 

[Stark]

12 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

Lots of good points made. Thanks for the replies.

Is Bell a better RB than Coleman at this point? Yes

Will signing Coleman significantly move the needle for our offense? Probably not.

Are there a lot of RBs with similar production to Coleman (JAGs)? Yes

Would signing Bell improve our offense? Yes

With that being said, it got me thinking about the RB position and its value in general.

A lot of HOF RBs in my lifetime (ex. OJ, Dickerson, Sanders, LT, etc) never got to a Super Bowl, or got there and didn't win (ex. Martin).

A lot of great RBs and possibly future HOFers (AP, Zeke, Gore) haven't either.

Barkley had an amazing season for the Giants last year and was on a team with Beckham Jr. and they still are drafting 6th.

Bell - for all of his greatness and playing in a high powered offense with a potential HOF QB and WR hasn't been able to carry his team to a SB.

On the other hand, the Pats have won 6 SBs and I can't think of one HOF or possible HOF RB on any of those teams (Corey Dillon being the highest in career yardage).

I guess I just don't value RBs or the RB position as much as others. I'm on board with using an early pick (2nd round w/tradedown or a 3rd) on trying to land the next Kamara or Hunt. IMO, I'd rather see us spread the cap $ to improve more positions vs

trying to hit a home run on 1.

Brady and Belichick, no one saw that coming. Unfortunately that's a thing no one has figured out. 

I can agree with the last part in premise. We've been trying to land any good player, let alone a 2nd or 3rd rounder that turns into a freaking stud and one of the better players at the position. Say we "landed" Hunt when he was in the draft, well we'd be missing him now and searching again. 

Signing Bell is not trying to hit a home run, it's not hitting a pop up to the infield with runners in scoring position. IMO

 

[Irish Jet]

Do not spend on running backs.

[Jet Nut]

23 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

If what you're trying to say is that not only is it a good idea to give running backs fat second contracts, giving up two draft picks for the privilege is a totally great way to build a team, then say that and I can laugh at how dumb it is. Don't tell me some guy says hi and make me guess.

If you mean draft picks for Martin I do it every day of the week.  A HOF career to someone who put up 8 straight 1,000 yard seasons, argue against it all you want.  He's at the top of every best FA see lists.  Only a foil is going to argue against Martin for those picks.  The last thing I would do is laugh and call it dumb. 

He says hi to you as do lots of others. 

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I  have said this in a different Coleman thread. 

Coleman is very average. When Freeman went down, Coleman had the chance to take over and have a big year playing alongside Ryan/Julio/Sanu/Ridley and he was very average. His YPC were OK, but that was due to a couple of big runs (See Isiah Crowell). 

That doesn't mean I am opposed to Coleman, but it has to be very cheap. Something along the lines of what we gave Crowell last year. 

As for Bell, I am all over the place on him. Part of me says he is too old (For a RB), will be too expensive (for a RB) and who knows how he will play at the end of his contract when he has already proven willing to hold out an entire year if he isn't happy. Not to mention he was out an entire year so while he didn't take a beating, we don't know for sure if he is great shape. 

Personally, I rather take a flier on a couple of RBs in this rookie class. It's not a spectacular group, but I am sure 4-5 of them will emerge as better players than Coleman.

He didn't hold out, because he was not under contract. The contract he was offered by the Steelers was not a good contract and could have amounted to a one year deal. He honored his contract and played well for the Steelers and wanted to be compensated along the lines of other backs of his caliber. He is 27 years old and he was never a banger so the miles on him are not what the miles on a power RB would be like say Todd Gurley. He is a fantastic receiver and as he ages can easily be moved to the slot as the Steelers did that with him on many occasions. 

Taking a shot at the rookie class is fine but in reality just as much of a risk, not money wise, but taking a chance on what Sam Darnold might need to take some pressure off him. Having a guy like Bell as a safety valve with a QB on his rookie contract would be the money you would otherwise spend on said QB and he will probably be gone when Darnold gets his second contract. That or at 30 Bell is moved into the slot to get some more years out of him. You could also extend Bells career by using him more as a pass receiving back and less as a banger . Using backs like New orleans uses them may very well be the way to go. Not one back on this current Jets roster has proven they can stay healthy for a 16 game season, not one. 

IMO the biggest risk with Bell is the Weed and you know he's been smoking plenty of that this year... the question is when did he cut that off ? hes 35 pounds over weight (probably from the weed and munchies) I would say their must be a clause in the contract that any money not paid would be void along with the contract if Bell gets caught smoking and gets a 10 game suspension.

[JustInFudge]

I'm a staunch believer in not giving RB's 2nd contract.  In almost every single case, like Coleman for example, I'd say hell to the no.  However, Bell is different and the Jets situation is unique.  I really dont think you can put a value on what Bell can do for Darnold's development in Gase's system.  They're just not in a situation where they can turn down a talent like Bell IMO.

[Stark]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

I'm a staunch believer in not giving RB's 2nd contract.  In almost every single case, like Coleman for example, I'd say hell to the no.  However, Bell is different and the Jets situation is unique.  I really dont think you can put a value on what Bell can do for Darnold's development in Gase's system.  They're just not in a situation where they can turn down a talent like Bell IMO.

I am with you JiF, but this is the wildcard.   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^