Quinnen not starting? Why do I care?

[C Mart]

25 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

Upset is too strong a word.  Maybe I'm slightly impatient that the supposed "best player in the draft" didn't win the job from a solid 30+  journeyman.

Impatient because a rookie, whether "best player in the draft" or not, isn't out there for the first play of the season?  whatever

You're making too much about who starts for a position(s) that use different personnel sets, looks on each play..

I'd say QB & OL are the only positions in the NFL today that are your true starters. Every other position is scheme, gameplan, playcall specific. 

Maybe Williams wants to come out in a 1-3-7 just to see how Buff/Allen reacts.. 

[PepPep]

12 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So you think Herndon > Hockenson then? 

For me, because I was such a "please draft Hockenson" guy, it'll be VERY interesting to see these two players (Hock and Herndon) this year.  Personally, I would have loved to have both a la the Pats days of Killer and Gronk. Lord knows that would have been good for Darnold, and our somewhat limp WR corp (IMO).  

Bell + Anderson/Enenwa + Crowder + Herndon + Hockenson.......that's a unit to be worried about in coverage IMO.  Tom Brady would win Super Bowls with that group.

But we went Defense, and Defensive Line, again instead.  Not my preference, but ok.  So I just hope Q.W. proves his worth for that pick, sooner rather than later.  

No, I think QW>Hock. And if Hock was better than QW and we drafted Hock, I'd be fine with the fact that we drafted Hock despite the fact that we have Herndon. 

[Jet Blast]

Why all the long faces?  Gregg Williams has made it very clear his preference is to rotate players in and out of the D-line to keep them fresh.

 

 

[Creepy Lurker]

When you have too many starting caliber DEs like we do, heavy rotation and keeping players fresh seems to be the best use for them. Next year we won’t have this problem since there’s no reason to keep Leo. I think QW will be really good for us, just wasn’t a need at all. 

[Bruce Harper]

8 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Impatient because a rookie, whether "best player in the draft" or not, isn't out there for the first play of the season?  whatever

You're making too much about who starts for a position(s) that use different personnel sets, looks on each play..

I'd say QB & OL are the only positions in the NFL today that are your true starters. Every other position is scheme, gameplan, playcall specific. 

Maybe Williams wants to come out in a 1-3-7 just to see how Buff/Allen reacts.. 

You are correct.  That's why  I called it "Why do I care?"

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I get the reasoning, but its a bit shortsighted and not the way GMs approach top 5 selections. I'm not an expert. But I truly believe you look for the top available talent. Period.

* With deference to premium positions and within reason.  And while simultaneously looking to trade away assets at positions where you're deep, like DT.  

For instance, no one can possibly justify taking Jamal Adams over Mahomes/Watson simply because he was supposed to be the top talent.  If you're the top talent at a position that doesn't matter, there's a reason he fell to you.  Nor was there justification for taking yet ANOTHER Safety in Rd 2 when the likes of Curtis Samuel, Dalvin Cook, Joe Mixon and JuJu Smith-Schuster were available.  

[Joe W. Namath]

Hock is the best blocking te to come out in years.  He would of been the starting te and herndon the recieving specialist tight end.

Hock would have been gronk, Herndon would have been hernandez.

It would have been a thing of beauty to see gase with those chess pieces.

Oh well, more DTs.

[Bruce Harper]

It is fun to watch how any thread will devolve into separate tangents supporting different agendas.  For example:

Mac sucked.

Should have drafted a TE

Should not have drafted a DT

Mac sucked.

[Savage69]

7 minutes ago, Jet Blast said:

Why all the long faces?  Gregg Williams has made it very clear his preference is to rotate players in and out of the D-line to keep them fresh.

LOL Facts have no place in this thread..

[jetsons]

I care more about who is the best player come the end of the season. 

[CanadaSteve]

12 hours ago, Warfish said:

Given all the heaps of praise this player received from some fans here about his talent, it IS a bit of a surprise he's not good enough (yet) to break into what is not a great D-Line as a starter.

With that said, it's literally day 1 for the kid.  He deserves time.  And we don't have a choice but to give it to him.

Hopefully he sees alot of action, even if not "starting".

I like Joe Douglas....I do.  And I am hopeful of things to come.

But it comes down to this: Doesn't matter what our draft picks up to now have been (except Sam, and Mac I at least will be grateful for that).

Joe Douglas will be judged on what he does with those 7 picks he's going to get every year for the next three years.  He brings talent in, things will be good.  But until he can prove he isn't Mac, or Tannenbaum, or Parcells, or list almost every GM we've ever had, he is no better.  He HAS to draft well.

No teams can ever go anywhere without drafting well.  THAT is the big culture that needs changing around the Jets. 

[kelly]

13 minutes ago, Jet Blast said:

Why all the long faces?  Gregg Williams has made it very clear his preference is to rotate players in and out of the D-line to keep them fresh.

" Why all the long faces ? ".. because we're fans of the  new york jets   

[Bleedin Green]

1 hour ago, PepPep said:

I get the reasoning, but its a bit shortsighted and not the way GMs approach top 5 selections. I'm not an expert. But I truly believe you look for the top available talent. Period. And if you don't believe there is ANY talent worth taking that high, you look to trade down. Of course, you need to be smart in what value you take back via trade.

QW was clearly a top 5 talent. I mean, most evaluators agreed he was a unique player and could possibly be a generational talent at DT who could dominate as both a pass rusher and a run stopper a la Aaron Donald. I mean, without getting into the details, that was the gist of it. The Jets had Leo but he was in contract year and Henry Anderson (although re-signed) had nowhere near the potential going forward that QW had. The Jets could very easily end up cutting ties with any one or more of Leo, McLendon and in a couple of years H.Anderson and QW would still only be 23-24 years old.

I get the reasoning, and if I were GM I'd probably do it a little differently,  but the bottom line is you draft the top talent and you do so looking ahead into who's going to be an impact player in the next 5+ years not who's going to start at a given position this season.    

Sounds good in theory, but you have to consider positional value at least to some extent, and that's what every GM with half a brain does.  It's the whole reason that such supposed "generational talents" Mac patted himself on the back for fell to the Jets in the first place.

We heard the same line of crap about Leo when they drafted him despite already having both Wilk and Richardson (and Coples, if even worth mentioning), and yet none of those claims ever came close to being true.  The only real benefit Leo provided was already there as a replacement when the team got sick of both Wilk and Richardson, but quite frankly, that could have just as easily been done by a free agent signing at that time.

In the end, a good starter is far more valuable to a team than a slightly better player as a backup.  This team's decision making has necessitated that, at any given time, one of the team's top defenders will be sitting on the bench, while other positions have guys on the field who are lucky to even be in the league.

[Bleedin Green]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

It is fun to watch how any thread will devolve into separate tangents supporting different agendas.  For example:

Mac sucked.

Should have drafted a TE

Should not have drafted a DT

Mac sucked.

I don't think you understand what the word "tangent" means, if that's what you consider it when talking about the drafting of the rookie DT in a thread that's specifically about the topic of said rookie DT.

[Jets1958]

Jet fans are "amazing"!

[Scoop24]

It’s already been said dudes gonna play a lot.. I swear everything gets over blown here . 

[Bruce Harper]

8 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

I don't think you understand what the word "tangent" means, if that's what you consider it when talking about the drafting of the rookie DT in a thread that's specifically about the topic of said rookie DT.

We've already drafted the guy and the thread is about whether he should be starting and does it matter.  But it seems to be mostly about we should have drafted a TE or whether Mac sucked, which I think has already been pretty well-established.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

it doesn't matter who starts it matters who finishes 

(3rd down, 4th quarter etc) 

don't be scared fellow Jets fans this is what a healthy defensive line rotation looks like 

Maybe if these guys get normal rest they can do more. 

yep.  there are going to be lots of rotations and qw will get his chance.  sometimes these guys get thrown in too soon but in this case it's probably more of a case of williams wanting to let the game settle down before throwing qw in.

[bealeb319]

Could you imagine if we had TJ Hockenson as our tight end on Sunday.  He is the guy we needed and Mac blew it.  

Hockenson will be garbage. Fant is the better tight end from the draft either way neither of them were worthy of the third overall pick. I didn't love the Williams pick either but let's not get ridiculous and try to make it seem like a tight end who will have 600 yards and 4 touchdowns would have been our difference maker

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Joe W. Namath]

7 minutes ago, bealeb319 said:

Hockenson will be garbage. Fant is the better tight end from the draft either way neither of them were worthy of the third overall pick. I didn't love the Williams pick either but let's not get ridiculous and try to make it seem like a tight end who will have 600 yards and 4 touchdowns would have been our difference maker

Sent from my LGUS991 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

Hahahahaha.  Fant will be better?  That is too funny.

[Joe W. Namath]

Ed Oliver is starting.  Just saying.

[varjet]

This is a valid point, but Gase and GW's job is to put the best players on the field and try to win the game.  We all know that teams oftentimes overplay their draft picks.  When Woody was around, you know that is that the Coaches did, because there was the sense that Woody would question why his investment was being used.  

But all of these Mac Draft Pick Threads are water under the bridge.   Mac is gone, and deservedly so.  JD is here with a six year contract.  I don't see the Jets miraculously turning it around and getting playoff good until at least 2020, if not 2021.  They will need to extend Darnold early to convince him to stick around.  The drafting and FA signings over the past 6 years has just been so, so bad, and the team constructed so poorly, that it will take at least another off season, if not two, to fix it.   Hopefully Gase shoes enough to not get swept out in a premature playoffs or bust mandate.  The team may not be ready in 2020.  

[TNJet]

2 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

If you tell me McLendon was better in camp and the preseason I will believe you (but in my heart I won't really believe you).

He wasn't. Its this stupid veteran leadership statement decision that I'm not buying. I think in the long run, we see more of Q and even Fatukasi than McClendon.

[Losmeister]

this whole draft slot and SHOULD automatically impact is false.

go back and look at the first rnd for , lets say, 20 years, analyse foirst 10 picks...

and see whcih players has AUTOMATIC high level impact...   in each slot its only a certain percentage...

of course, picking that high should increase your odds...  but theres busts all around...

how do you grade super mario and clowney? me..   plus players, but a C as a #1 pick....

 

[Hael]

Not going to lie.  This isn’t a great look.  Leo started week1 as a rookie on a significantly better DL.  

This means QW is much more raw than anticipated, and that’s not really  what you want from a sure thing 3rd pick.

i still think he develops, but well it’s just a little discouraging.

[Jetsfan80]

14 minutes ago, Losmeister said:

this whole draft slot and SHOULD automatically impact is false.

go back and look at the first rnd for , lets say, 20 years, analyse foirst 10 picks...

and see whcih players has AUTOMATIC high level impact...   in each slot its only a certain percentage...

of course, picking that high should increase your odds...  but theres busts all around...

how do you grade super mario and clowney? me..   plus players, but a C as a #1 pick....

 

 

There's always tons of busts, even early in the draft.  But the main goal isn't to draft a guy who will be considered a non-bust in the top 10.  It's to get an impact player, potentially an all-time great, and ideally at a premium position.  I'd much rather take a shot on an EDGE, LT, WR1 or CB1 in the top 10 and have it fail than take a "pretty good" DT.  

And as for the Mario Williams, that ended up being a very good selection.  Everyone was assuming the Texans would take Reggie Bush at # 1.  They made the right call in the end.  They got an impact pass rusher who played in the NFL for nearly a decade and went to 4 Pro Bowls (2 All-Pro's).  Who else should they have taken there?  Maybe Brick or a similar talent in Haloti Ngata?  As far as # 1 picks go, Mario is at least a B+, not a C.  

[Bleedin Green]

45 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

We've already drafted the guy and the thread is about whether he should be starting and does it matter.  But it seems to be mostly about we should have drafted a TE or whether Mac sucked, which I think has already been pretty well-established.

You want to look at things in vacuum, and that's your prerogative, but it's not a "tangent" when others opt to do otherwise.

The point is, quite simply, the fact that this question even exists while there are simultaneously massive holes throughout the rest of the roster is ridiculous, and very much a cause/effect relationship.

[Butterfield]

Not a very efficient use of resources.

[Jetsfan80]

Drafting a TE at 3 would have been absurd.  You would need a guarantee that the guy becomes a Top 3 TE in the league to make that pick worthwhile.  I'd rather have QW than a TE.  At least Quinnen MIGHT be able to rush the passer out of the DT slot.  TE is a luxury pick.  

TE's who were taken top 10 since 2000:

• Kellen Winslow Jr. (# 6 - 2004)
• Vernon Davis (# 6 - 2006)
• Eric Ebron (# 10 - 2015)

Not a very inspiring list.  NO team has taken a TE in the top 5 since 1972.  And for good reason.  

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Jet Blast said:

Why all the long faces?  Gregg Williams has made it very clear his preference is to rotate players in and out of the D-line to keep them fresh.

 

 

QW himself is coming from an Alabama program that rotates 8 DL 

they are all 5 star Prep types, they are all starters. 

someone always gets hurt and in the meantime clearly McCLendon isn't going to be on the field 3rd and long 

all this talk about nose tackle who plays where on 1st down is bologna

3rd and long, Leo and Q can be 2 DT rushers in the nickel. someone's going to be one on one 

 

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Drafting a TE at 3 would have been absurd.  You would need a guarantee that the guy becomes a Top 3 TE in the league to make that pick worthwhile.  I'd rather have QW than a TE.  At least Quinnen MIGHT be able to rush the passer out of the DT slot.  TE is a luxury pick.  

TE's who were taken top 10 since 2000:

• Kellen Winslow Jr. (# 6 - 2004)
• Vernon Davis (# 6 - 2006)
• Eric Ebron (# 10 - 2015)

Not a very inspiring list.  NO team has taken a TE in the top 5 since 1972.  And for good reason.  

not to mention the Jets drafting 1st rd TE list 

which is so bad, posting it again might take down Max's servers 

[bitonti]

25 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

There's always tons of busts, even early in the draft.  But the main goal isn't to draft a guy who will be considered a non-bust in the top 10.  It's to get an impact player, potentially an all-time great, and ideally at a premium position.  I'd much rather take a shot on an EDGE, LT, WR1 or CB1 in the top 10 and have it fail than take a "pretty good" DT.   

every draft is different you can't take a red chip LT prospect like Jonah Williams at 3 and hope he works out 

when everyone in the building and America knows the defender is the better prospect

ive said this before the draft isn't like Whole Foods. It's like a Bodega you get what's on the shelves that day. There's no selection

Paying double for the expired can of chili is technically "taking a shot" but it's not necessarily a smart shot 

you take the best of what's available, QW was a blue chip prospect. mac was a moron but he made a smart pick at 3

the Polite pick was so bad he should be put in the town square in stocks and let the villagers throw tomatoes at him. 

but Quinnen is legit 

[jeremy2020]

Does "starting" matter on the D line? It's literally the most rotated position in the NFL.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

not to mention the Jets drafting 1st rd TE list 

which is so bad, posting it again might take down Max's servers 

Yep.  1st round/early TE's are a mess for us.  Even worse when you factor in the Doug Jolley trade in 2005, for whom we moved down all the way from # 26 overall to # 47 overall.  

• Jace Amaro (2.49, 2014) 
• Dustin Keller (1.30, 2008)
• Anthony Becht (1.27, 2000)
• Kyle Brady (1.9, 1997)
• Johnny Mitchelll (1.15, 1992)

 

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Could you imagine if we had TJ Hockenson as our tight end on Sunday.  He is the guy we needed and Mac blew it.  

 

2 hours ago, PepPep said:

Could you imagine TJ Hockenson being benched when Herndon comes back and everybody whining about how we wasted a 1st round pick on a guy who isn't 'starting'. LOL. 

Pretty sure Jesse James is still ahead of Hockenson on the Lions depth chart.  Egads!