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Tony Pauline:Fields falling down draft boards. No NFL team has Wilson higher than Lawrence.


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On 2/18/2021 at 10:53 PM, GodDamnSnack said:

I'm surprised by that. I really think Fields has what it takes. Wilson is also a great prospect, but I would take Fields at #2.

Fields is a one read guy who needs his receivers to get open before he throws.  That’s a big no no for nfl qbs 

 

Wilson’s injury issues are Chad-esque

 

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No surprise...after TL there is no QB worth a top 10 pick.  

These guys don’t know sh*t.

Pretty sure no one knows the exact draft board of every NFL team. 

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37 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Fields is a one read guy who needs his receivers to get open before he throws.  That’s a big no no for nfl qbs 

 

Wilson’s injury issues are Chad-esque

 

What you described about fields is exactly Watson. The reason it works for him has had great receivers who get open and he uses his legs. Which is the reason trading a huge ransom for Watson is insanity. That said, you can win with that type of qb on a cheap rookie deal if you put pieces around him. I would not be opposed at all to a trade back and grabbing him.

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51 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Fields is a one read guy who needs his receivers to get open before he throws.  That’s a big no no for nfl qbs 

 

Wilson’s injury issues are Chad-esque

 

Wilson's shoulder is perfectly fine though, apparently the surgery might have even improved his accuracy.

 

Did he have any other issues?

 

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14 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

This really is a stupid argument, one which I'm not going to have anymore.

You're so self righteous in your opinion, that your opinion is so absolutely correct, that you write a nasty reply to me like that - like  I'm some how outside of the norm.

You may or may not believe the majority of experts, that certainly your right, but please don't speak to me like my assessment is somehow absurd.

I'm speaking to the way you're speaking to me and the rest of the board.  You accused me of not liking Wilson because of the god he worships.

You're being ridiculously hypocritical.  You can accuse everyone of bashing Wilson for off the field reasons that have no merit as he begins to be argued as the QB1 and shoots up the board but I cant point out how despite Fields being the better prospect for all the IMO clear reasons I mentioned that he is suddenly dropping down the board for a reason that is commonly attributed to something that has nothing to do with on the field play?

Yeah, ok dude, I'm the self righteous one.  lol

 

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13 hours ago, sec101row23 said:

I’m not sure what your point is?  These guys are all the same age.  My point was that against a tougher schedule he didn’t look as good.   The schedule BYU played this year was comical.   

 Before this season his resume was terrible football and injuries.  And now we're calling his resume good from the jump?  lol  Dude, this is wild.  The sh*t coming out right now.   I'm all for a player improving, that's great but you can not just throw out the bad tape prior to 2020.  That's just absolutely careless.   

In 2019, when threw 11 TD and 9 picks...ready for this...he threw 17 less passes then he did this year.  So, 22 less TD's, 1300 less yard, 6 more picks in only 17 less passes.   Bro...that is miserable beyond recognition.  To tell me that his resume is good if you stop it right there and not play 2020,I mean, I'm sorry to who ever said that but its the dumbest take yet thus far that I've heard in this insane offseason. 

 

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

What you described about fields is exactly Watson. The reason it works for him has had great receivers who get open and he uses his legs. Which is the reason trading a huge ransom for Watson is insanity. That said, you can win with that type of qb on a cheap rookie deal if you put pieces around him. I would not be opposed at all to a trade back and grabbing him.

This is true. I remember the one read stuff being the critique of Watson and why he fell in the draft. 
 

I will say that Watson’s resume was better than Fields as a college QB. 

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14 hours ago, oatmeal said:

Lets play a game called guess the prospect:

 PFF scouting report:

What he does best:

Smooth, efficient delivery.

Throws a very catchable ball.

Displays a complete inventory of passes with zip, firm with touch. Changes the pace of the ball well when needed.

Extremely athletic with the ability to escape when things break down. Good initial burst. True timing/rhythm passer, heavily reliant on pre-snap reads.

Throws cover-3 and cover-2 seams very well.

Best “glance” route thrower in the class.

Anticipates well on timing routes outside the numbers.

Flashes good go-ball touch. Good feel for back-shoulder throws to big-bodied receivers.

Delivers in big moments. Confident player.

Biggest concerns:

Limited instincts/feel in the pocket.

Does not react smoothly when initial read is not there.

Lacks consistent pocket poise, drops eyes down for a running lane instead of creating within the pocket.

Played in an offense where the field was cut in half with simple reads.

Field looks small to him; limited vision to get through progressions.

Relatively slow post-snap processing speed.

More interested in taking a yes/no go-ball on the outside than reading out the concept of the play.

Overall not as accurate as he should be considering his style of play. Inaccurate on many easy throws in the short passing game.

Played with elite playmakers around him, will have to learn how to function without big-play receivers on the outside.

^^
Who is this player? Deshaun Watson. What’s funny about this is, this reads exactly like a Justin Fields scouting report  

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-deshaun-watson-qb-clemson

We have to get this kid he’s going to be special

I was guessing Mark Sanchez

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

What you described about fields is exactly Watson. The reason it works for him has had great receivers who get open and he uses his legs. Which is the reason trading a huge ransom for Watson is insanity. That said, you can win with that type of qb on a cheap rookie deal if you put pieces around him. I would not be opposed at all to a trade back and grabbing him.

Watson has great receivers?  Who were his studs this year? Cooks? Fuller? (Neither of which are studs) Who else.

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51 minutes ago, JiF said:

 Before this season his resume was terrible football and injuries.  And now we're calling his resume good from the jump?  lol  Dude, this is wild.  The sh*t coming out right now.   I'm all for a player improving, that's great but you can not just throw out the bad tape prior to 2020.  That's just absolutely careless.   

In 2019, when threw 11 TD and 9 picks...ready for this...he threw 17 less passes then he did this year.  So, 22 less TD's, 1300 less yard, 6 more picks in only 17 less passes.   Bro...that is miserable beyond recognition.  To tell me that his resume is good if you stop it right there and not play 2020,I mean, I'm sorry to who ever said that but its the dumbest take yet thus far that I've heard in this insane offseason. 

 

Agreed.  That’s why I brought up 2019 in the first place, the production differential is massive, and when you really look at the reasons it’s because he was clearly challenged more in 2019 than 2020.  Take away FCS UMass and he’s 7 TDS- 9 INTs for the season,  but we can’t count the 2019 season because he improved from it in 2020?  It’s laughable.  Did he really “improve” or was it a function of playing poor competition week in and week out?  
 

This hype train for Wilson is getting out of hand IMO, he’s a nice prospect but some of the excuses being made for him are comical.  We can dissect every throw Justin has ever made, but god forbid we are critical of Wilson.  Imagine if Justin had put up the numbers Wilson did in 2019, people would have him as a 4th or 5th round prospect. 
 

One final note regarding Justin as a “one read” QB.  He has 398 completions while playing at OSU, if he’s a “one read” QB that must be greatest offensive scheme ever created.  Imagine having your first read be open almost 70% of the time, why isn’t every team running this scheme?  

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50 minutes ago, JiF said:

 Before this season his resume was terrible football and injuries.  And now we're calling his resume good from the jump?  lol  Dude, this is wild.  The sh*t coming out right now.   I'm all for a player improving, that's great but you can not just throw out the bad tape prior to 2020.  That's just absolutely careless.   

In 2019, when threw 11 TD and 9 picks...ready for this...he threw 17 less passes then he did this year.  So, 22 less TD's, 1300 less yard, 6 more picks in only 17 less passes.   Bro...that is miserable beyond recognition.  To tell me that his resume is good if you stop it right there and not play 2020,I mean, I'm sorry to who ever said that but its the dumbest take yet thus far that I've heard in this insane offseason. 

 

Who ordered the double sausage and extra cheese? "Over here dude!!!!!

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20 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I like Lance as that Flacco, Kaepernick, Allen QB that has enough physical tools that you can scheme him to success.  Then if he becomes a QB, it is gravy.  Guy like him has to test well though.  I also think the QB camp guys have much more say on his status. 

Seems like you could do the same with Fields, worst case. 

Lance terrifies me because he basically played one year (in the FCS, no less), but I’m on board with the logic. Nobody stays for four years anymore—usually not even three—and extrapolating anything is so tough. There’s a good argument for just taking a freak and seeing if you can mold him.

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8 minutes ago, JiF said:

Right on.  I wont go into anymore but I will just say this; I think it is fine to be concerned about character at the QB position.  Nayouaot the stuff you mentioned, faith, medication, etc. but he's a entitled dweeb, that should be part of the evaluation IMO see; Rosen and Manziel, etc.

When I've watched Wilson, here's what I dont like and I'll start with the physical attributes; small frame, injury riddled, C- athlete with a live arm.  The arm is appealing to me, nothing else about his physical attributes are at all.  He does not have the type frame/athletic profile that succeeds in todays version of the NFL.  

As for his game; his footwork is extremely sloppy, he's damn near close to double heel clicks on every throw, he holds the ball at his waist which is fine when you're throwing from the cleanest pockets I've ever seen not so a good thing in the NFL, he plays hero ball and has a sh*t of ambulance throws on film because he misses high which is scary in the NFL, he also throws a ton of "no no's" and gets away with it because he plays flag football, his film prior to 2020 is awful like not draftable bad, he's a see it thrower not a ton of anticipation because he's arrogant with his arm, he'll pass on the easy read for a hero throw often, he's rarely on schedule, I dont see a ton of progressions and wait for it!!!!  quick processing.  I've literally watched him call off a WR who was double covered running a post, mid play, while eating a sandwich in the pocket, directing him to the sidelines and completing a 60 yard pass which will literally never ever happen in the NFL and unfortunately, I think his film is filled with sh*t that wont translate, then factor in the level of comp and I hav major concerns.  Overall; the NFL is a copy cat league and people fall in love with something because someone who can do it is really good.  Just because Pat Mahomes has a cannon and can throw off platform, doesnt mean that anyone who can do that is Pat Mahomes see; Sam Darnold.  He sucks. I think that is the appeal to Wilson and you're throwing everything out and hoping you can develop him based on his arm alone.  He's a mash up product of Johnny Manziel and Drew Lock meets Mitch Trubisky

When I compare him to guys like Fields and Lawrence, he's no where near the prospect, never has been, never will be.  Remove those 2 guys from the equation, maybe I can see him getting this love but in comparison, for my money, it's bonkers to put him in the same category. 

 

Im glad you and Fidelio settled you differences. Warms the heart. Both QB' s have enough issues that drafting them with the 2nd pick would. be considered a reach. Both might turn out to be good in the NFL. Drafting them at two, though, would be a big no-no.

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I think everyone who is interested in this fields/wilson debate should watch the below link of Wilson vs Houston.  I dont see a "one-read" QB in this game, but rather an offense similar to what the Jets will run with play action, motion and screen type plays along with a QB who can throw the ball accurately down the field and on shorter screen-type passes, along with being mobile. 

I really dont feel too strongly either way about which of these guys is better, but Id caution anyone who wants to talk about "one-read" to look at the scouting reports on Justin Herbert last year.  A college offense may limit what a QB does on the field, but that doesnt mean these guys CANT do it, thats on Joe Douglas to figure out.   Both QBs have more then enough arm and athletic ability to play in the NFL, what they can do reading defenses etc is on JD to figure out.

 

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52 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Agreed.  That’s why I brought up 2019 in the first place, the production differential is massive, and when you really look at the reasons it’s because he was clearly challenged more in 2019 than 2020.  Take away FCS UMass and he’s 7 TDS- 9 INTs for the season,  but we can’t count the 2019 season because he improved from it in 2020?  It’s laughable.  Did he really “improve” or was it a function of playing poor competition week in and week out?  
 

This hype train for Wilson is getting out of hand IMO, he’s a nice prospect but some of the excuses being made for him are comical.  We can dissect every throw Justin has ever made, but god forbid we are critical of Wilson.  Imagine if Justin had put up the numbers Wilson did in 2019, people would have him as a 4th or 5th round prospect. 
 

One final note regarding Justin as a “one read” QB.  He has 398 completions while playing at OSU, if he’s a “one read” QB that must be greatest offensive scheme ever created.  Imagine having your first read be open almost 70% of the time, why isn’t every team running this scheme?  

To be fair the same could have been said about Joe Burrow given his leap from 2018 to 2019. 

It also can’t all be about the numbers QBs put up in college. It’s not that OSU has the “best offensive scheme in history”. It is that the overall talent on the field he is playing with is significantly better than his competition. Any QB is going to have success in that offense (same with Alabama and Clemson) which is why scouts need to be able differentiate guys like Deshaun Watson from Tua Tagovaloia. 

 

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3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Fields is a one read guy who needs his receivers to get open before he throws.  That’s a big no no for nfl qbs 

 

Wilson’s injury issues are Chad-esque

 

You've never watched either of these two QB play have you. 

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14 minutes ago, BCJet said:

I think everyone who is interested in this fields/wilson debate should watch the below link of Wilson vs Houston.  I dont see a "one-read" QB in this game, but rather an offense similar to what the Jets will run with play action, motion and screen type plays along with a QB who can throw the ball accurately down the field and on shorter screen-type passes, along with being mobile. 

I really dont feel too strongly either way about which of these guys is better, but Id caution anyone who wants to talk about "one-read" to look at the scouting reports on Justin Herbert last year.  A college offense may limit what a QB does on the field, but that doesnt mean these guys CANT do it, thats on Joe Douglas to figure out.   Both QBs have more then enough arm and athletic ability to play in the NFL, what they can do reading defenses etc is on JD to figure out.

 

i am on record for Wilson over Fields if the Jets decide to go QB. I think a lot of the anti-Wilson arguments were similar to those made against Mahomes.

That being said i think Darnold still has upside to be better then both so i really hope we get Chase or Smith.

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6 minutes ago, GreekJet said:

To be fair the same could have been said about Joe Burrow given his leap from 2018 to 2019. 

It also can’t all be about the numbers QBs put up in college. It’s not that OSU has the “best offensive scheme in history”. It is that the overall talent on the field he is playing with is significantly better than his competition. Any QB is going to have success in that offense (same with Alabama and Clemson) which is why scouts need to be able differentiate guys like Deshaun Watson from Tua Tagovaloia. 

 

BYU’s talent was better than everyone else they played this year too.  Lots of QBs would have success in BYU’s offense as well.  
 

Are we going to believe that of the 400 completions that Justin had they were all his “first read”?  Come on now.  

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3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You've never watched either of these two QB play have you. 

Have you? watch the Clemson game....Fields consistently throws into coverage even though there are receivers running open. Some people on this forum will call those "tight window throws", i call them throws that don't translate to the NFL.

image.thumb.png.c6b846c8118d2a5ce8a99fd3030a1d95.png

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3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

What you described about fields is exactly Watson. The reason it works for him has had great receivers who get open and he uses his legs. Which is the reason trading a huge ransom for Watson is insanity. That said, you can win with that type of qb on a cheap rookie deal if you put pieces around him. I would not be opposed at all to a trade back and grabbing him.

He led the league in passing yards this year with nothing at WR to talk about.  

This is wrong

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17 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

Have you? watch the Clemson game....Fields consistently throws into coverage even though there are receivers running open. Some people on this forum will call those "tight window throws", i call them throws that don't translate to the NFL.

image.thumb.png.c6b846c8118d2a5ce8a99fd3030a1d95.png

I've been pretty steady here.  I like both, would understand if either were taken.  

I havent been harsh on either QB.  

I've watched plenty of games for Fields.  If you think hes a one read QB, who's game cant translate to the NFL and that Wilson is Chad-esque good for you, join Phil.  Have not idea why youre bitching to me over what he said 

You might want to pick a better game than the Clemson game to make a point btw.

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12 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

BYU’s talent was better than everyone else they played this year too.  Lots of QBs would have success in BYU’s offense as well.  
 

Are we going to believe that of the 400 completions that Justin had they were all his “first read”?  Come on now.  

That is a misleading statement you just made.

BYU recruiting (per247 composite)

2017-66th

2018-78th

2019-84th

2020-81st

Well below UCF which they destroyed in their bowl. 
 

Lets take a look at Ohio St 

2017-2nd

2018-2nd

2019-14th (Meyer transition)

2020-5th

 

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Just now, GreekJet said:

That is a misleading statement you just made.

BYU recruiting (per247 composite)

2017-66th

2018-78th

2019-84th

2020-81st

Well below UCF which they destroyed in their bowl. 
 

Lets take a look at Ohio St 

2017-2nd

2018-2nd

2019-14th (Meyer transition)

2020-5th

 

Lol...UCF?  The team that lost to Memphis, Tulsa and Cincinnati?  
 

 What does OSU recruiting ranks have to do with BYU being better than every team they faced this past season?  
 

I can see why @JiF swore off anymore QB debates...Lol

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On 2/18/2021 at 5:30 PM, HighPitch said:

Yea fields is really getting shafted. Maybe because of his last game? I dunno but the game before last he played LIGHTS OUT

I watched him play 4 games.  He was awful in one. Average in another.  Played lights out in another. And got steamrolled in his final game which was not his fault.

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3 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Lol...UCF?  The team that lost to Memphis, Tulsa and Cincinnati?  
 

 What does OSU recruiting ranks have to do with BYU being better than every team they faced this past season?  
 

I can see why @JiF swore off anymore QB debates...Lol

You were the one who brought up talent not me. BYU is not an overly talented team. Ohio State is ridiculously talented. 

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Just now, GreekJet said:

You were the one who brought up talent not me. BYU is not an overly talented team. Ohio State is ridiculously talented. 

Again, you completely missed the point.  It’s not worth going back over again.  

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