Becton/Fant discussion

[68JET11]

10 hours ago, MR.GANGGREEN28 said:

Day 1 of training camp next season when you run out first team offense for drills, who are you bringing out at LT? Are you basing it on the previous year with who performed the best/ most consistently or should they just go in alphabetical order? Yeah jobs can be won and lost throughout camp but someone has to begin with the starting position.

FANT, and also let Becton run with the 1's... You have to make everyone earn a spot. This team has no starters yet. How will you know if someone can come in an take someone's spot if you don't have some sort of competition right from the beginning. I like the way some of the young guys played, so they will get preference, but if a draft pick or FA comes in and out plays them in camp, then they should start whoever they are. Fant is going to be 30, and while if he plays like he did this year, then I'm cool with him starting at LT, but if the light goes off in Becton's head as well, and he comes to camp at 350 and in great shape and ready to play, then if he wins the comp, then he should start. Simple as that. If I'm the head coach, that's the speach I'm giving at first day at camp. Nobody here is being handed a job, show me you deserve to be on the field.

[EM31]

Becton has just one job this year.  Stay on the damned field.  Discussions like this one will be pointless until he does that.

[Barton]

Fant did a helluva job and should be the starting LT going into 2022. 

That being said, Fant was playing to salvage his career to a certain extent AND finally prove he was a capable LT. It was his big moment to shine. He was hungry. Sometimes a guys play falls off when this goes away, so we'll see how he does next year. 

[Sperm Edwards]

11 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Oh I get it.  But in fairness some need to feel in the dump Becton talk and give him more time first.  Kind of like they needed to do with Fant

With Becton’s cringy tweet that does make it seem like he sees himself as a lion who only moves when he personally feels it’s worth the effort, and further reports of tapping out, and that the CS thinks he’s not putting forth the effort other non-Mims players do, I can sympathize with fans being down on him. 

He still has too much talent to give up on him when he’ll be perfectly healthy when the 2022 season begins in March. If the CS is truly that down on his effort, and feels it undermines them to give this enormous child special treatment, they may yet move on. I don’t think it’ll happen, but armed with enough picks and cap room to replace him (the team was not wanting for tackles when Fant+Moses were out there for 15 games), do allow that it is possible.

I still think they’re likely to sign a RT veteran, probably not Moses because Douglas will probably look for another 2021-Moses salary level, so someone so they do have a starter-worthy player in his absence rather than a RT-version of McDermott/Edoga when the starter’s out.

Personally I’d be on board with bringing back Moses anyway; even if it’s overpayment for what they’ll need to start the season, the season did just get longer and then the team legitimately has 2 starting LTs and 3 starting RTs without even touching the position in the draft. I wouldn’t burn a #4 pick on a position I can buy with an ~$8MM/yr veteran (when a $3-4MM veteran backup was probably going to get signed regardless, making the difference really more like $4-5MM/yr for another 1-2 yrs); rather, I’d burn a #4 pick to avoid paying a $20-40MM/yr veteran. 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, 68JET11 said:

FANT, and also let Becton run with the 1's... You have to make everyone earn a spot. This team has no starters yet. How will you d he comes to camp at 350 and in great shape and ready to play, then if he wins the comp, then he should start. Simple as that. 

I disagree...I think injury history has to come into play.  6 weeks of playing well in practice doesn't make up for two years of being injury prone.

LT is far too important of a position and having consistency there is vital.

[Joejet]

After the year he had this year Fant has to go into camp as the starting LT until someone proves they are a better option. Covering the QBs blindside is the most important aspect of the LT and Fant did it as well as anyone in the league this year. If Becton can beat him out, fine, if not let him battle for the RT job where his run blocking skills will help make that a strength. 

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I disagree...I think injury history has to come into play.  6 weeks of playing well in practice doesn't make up for two years of being injury prone.

LT is far too important of a position and having consistency there is vital.

Meh, I don’t really. If Becton is looking like a LT upgrade - not much worse in pass protection with a noticeable improvement in run blocking - then he should be the LT. Part of what Fant brings to the table is his versatility, and he’d probably be more apt to switch from one side to the other as needed than would Becton. The purpose is the greater good, not pinning a season-long medal on someone’s chest in the current season for past deeds done the prior season. 

That said, absolutely when camp opens Fant is the LT and the position is his to lose. Not just because he did a good job, which is reason enough; but doubly I don’t think Saleh will want a locker room full of eye-rolling, which will surely happen if they replace an above average starter (at a premium position) with a young player who basically tapped out of the prior season 1-2 mos after his leg healed.

[CSNY]

Fant should be the starting LT day one next year. He has earned that right with hard work. He also has deserved the right to hold onto the starting spot with continued excellent play and that should not be taken away from him as Becton has earned nothing and should have to work hard to garner  a position. Becton can learn a lot from Ole George on what it takes to become a starter in the NFL

[DonCorleone]

19 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Sign a veteran RT. If they  can get a deal done with Moses, then maybe move Becton inside (unless he clearly beats out Moses over the summer) or see what his trade value is (if it’s just a 3rd or worse, keep him; 1st I’d trade him; 2nd…depends how high/low).

More likely they’re not going to ante up enough to keep Moses, and instead they’ll sign an older veteran T in that $3-4MM range. Fant has earned the starting LT job a helluva lot more than Becton, and no one should be handed a premium position. Beginning of camp, Fant LT and Becton starts out at RT. 

I completely agree.

[DonCorleone]

19 hours ago, Sammybighead said:

I answered keep fant at LT move Becton to RT. However, it's more complicated than that. A lot depends on how Becton shows up to training camp and how he looks playing LT again. I think the coaches will initially give both guys snaps at LT and RT and make a decision based on how things go. I can see a scenario where Becton wins LT, he gets pushed to RT, or gets benched altogether if they draft another tackle. It all depends on Becton and his attitude. 

Something was not right with Becton and the coaching staff since training camp. I believe that there was a disagreement possibly about the shape that he snowed up in. I am not sure that Becton loves football,. Perhaps he loves eating more. I am just voicing an opinion. 

[Larz]

Won’t know on becton for 2 months if he’s serious about his career but that should give JD time to evaluate his options. 
 

would be a shame to use a high pick on a left tackle , but a swing tackle would be ok in the second or third rd

[DonCorleone]

18 hours ago, chirorob said:

Here's the thing.  Fant is going to be 30 and a FA after the season.

Becton is 22, and under team control for years.  You don't give up a 22 year old that fast.  That being said, no handouts, make him earn his role, and show he can be counted on.

Becton may be only 22 but he can't stay healthy and on the field. He may never have a full season.

[Barry McCockinner]

 

 

[Spoot-Face]

As far as I'm concerned the LT job is Fant's (assuming he re-signs) until Becton proves he can reliably take it and stay healthy and in game shape. But, being a former 1st pick who showed enough talent to play the position at a very high level, Becton should 100% get the support and chance to do so in training camp.

I'd also like to see them try to re-sign Moses as well, or at least bring in another legitimate RT option, should Becton not be ready or able to play a full 17 game season. Our tackle depth is... not good.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

On 1/9/2022 at 7:14 PM, freestater said:

Wirfs is on his way to his second pro bowl in his two years in the league.

Becton routinely destroys bags of cheetos. 

Discuss...

I disagree.  Cheetos are extremely fast, the type of snack Becton struggles with.

 

[rldev]

Wow this thread is all kinds of ridiculous. 

[Patriot Killa]

On 1/10/2022 at 7:25 AM, FidelioJet said:

LT is far too important of a position and having consistency there is vital.

This is why being the 11th pick isn’t enough.

[Patriot Killa]

3 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

 

 

Fant gave up 1 sack in 900 snaps. PFF just doesn’t do it for me in this particular situation.

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

Fant gave up 1 sack in 900 snaps. PFF just doesn’t do it for me in this particular situation.

Absolutely - but Becton is a much better run blocker and that is really important for this offense. Having Becton and AVT right next to each other has its appeal. 

I personally want to see a Becton/Fant duo next year at tackle. I don’t care which guy plays which position. If you want to leave Fant at LT, that’s fine. 
 

But giving up on Becton is premature - IMO 

[Patriot Killa]

8 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

but Becton is a much better run blocker and that is really important for this offense. Having Becton and AVT right next to each other has its appeal. 

Fair point there. And definitely want Fant/Becton out there in some way. Like others mentioned, camp might be a good way to fairly sort that out.

8 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

But giving up on Becton is premature - IMO 

absolutely.

[slimjasi]

Just now, Patriot Killa said:

Fair point there. And definitely want Fant/Becton out there in some way. Like others mentioned, camp might be a good way to fairly sort that out.

absolutely.

Yep. 

It’s something that should be figured out in camp. 

 

[Patriot Killa]

3 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Yep. 

It’s something that should be figured out in camp. 

 

Which is why I hate being stuck in no man’s land at #4 because I don’t want Neal.

[rangerous]

imo, fant has earned the lt position and part of that has to be how well he plays alongside avt.  keep him at lt and that side of the oline is set.  put becton on the right side.  get a rg and this would (or should) be a seriously good oline.  all they need will be to play the full season together.

[chirorob]

On 1/9/2022 at 6:06 PM, freestater said:

Fant is not a free agent this year. 

Moses is.

Fant and McGovern are after this season.

[Barry McCockinner]

7 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

Fant gave up 1 sack in 900 snaps. PFF just doesn’t do it for me in this particular situation.

I get it and I often question their ratings myself. I will say that giving up a sack isn't going to be the be-all end-all of pass block grading and not all sacks are created equal. I can't speak to how they arrived at their grades but as a hypothetical example, you could do an excellent job of pass blocking for 4 seconds and still give up a sack because the QB held the ball too long. Another example is the QB just gets flushed out to your side because of inside pressure or pressure from the other edge and the guy you were doing a perfectly good job of preventing from getting into the pocket now has a free rush. Again - I don't know if that's the cause, just giving some potential explanations.

I don't know if they take into account the quality of the pass rusher you're facing but as the video pointed out, Becton faced a more difficult slate of pass rushers in 2020 than Fant did in 2021. 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-pass-protection

Quote

It’s important to note that the blocker’s grade will not change based on whether or not he gives up a sack, hit, or a hurry. Those results are largely driven by other factors such as the quarterback, receiver and performance of the defender. It’s important to isolate the role of the blocker on each play and not use the result of the play to influence his grade. 

 

[Jet Nut]

On 1/9/2022 at 7:39 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

In fairness, last year he was a below average RT with a top 10 RT salary (after a previous career as a backup). This year he’s been an above average LT (at least in pass protection). It’s not apples & apples. 

Following the 2020 season I don’t recall anybody suggesting Fant should be the team’s starting LT. You found more people advocating they cut him outright and draft a LT with the #2 pick. 

In fairness he was coming off a knee injury and didnt play much in Seattle as a rookie or in his second season.  That was it, not like he had a lot of history or tape to pick on.  

Yeas, most jumped he gun and wanted him cut.  Those have now moved onto Becton, who had the audacity to have a knee injury that was apparently more severe and would require more time to rehab than first estimated 

[Jet Nut]

31 minutes ago, rangerous said:

imo, fant has earned the lt position and part of that has to be how well he plays alongside avt.  keep him at lt and that side of the oline is set.  put becton on the right side.  get a rg and this would (or should) be a seriously good oline.  all they need will be to play the full season together.

And how do you know, why should you think, that Becton cant play at least as good next to AVT?  Since he never really has?

[OilfieldJet]

Draft OL in Round 1.

 

Not moving on from Becton, I hope he come back and is an all-pro. My confidence level in that, or even in his staying on the field for all 17 games, is less than 50%. Fant played well, yes, but I’m not prepared to risk the season, or Zach, or our running game on him. Too many positives for bringing on a low risk OL stud who may be a starter for 12 years to go a different direction.

[jamesr]

My concern about Becton is that he may come into camp next year "behind the curve" as far as the zone blocking scheme goes. The rest of the OL had a season's worth of game action to iron out the details and get it all ingrained - think how much better they looked as a unit later n the year compared to the early weeks. Becton still needs to go through that process to consolidate the stuff he learned / will learn in camp with the realities of going up against different opponents week after week.

I'm not saying I am "pro-Fant" (if that is a thing) - he did well in pass pro but his run blocking was average at best, and we clearly want to be a run heavy team, at least while Zach develops.

As a couple of posters said, a Fant / Becton combo would be great, whoever plays LT / RT, and we do have some depth issues to address. Moses was a godsend this year, but if he moves on we have a whole lot of nothing. Wouldn't surprise me if we sign a FA swing guy and also draft a T in Rd 3 / 4 to keep stocking the pipeline. 

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

And how do you know, why should you think, that Becton cant play at least as good next to AVT?  Since he never really has?

i don't.  i have said that before.  fant has avt playing next to him and that has to help.  but at the same time, fant/avt has proven to be a good tandem and becton may be better suited to the right side.

[Barry McCockinner]

Becton opens up explosive potential in our offense. The run game can be elite with him next to AVT which opens up the pass game. PFF graded his rookie year pass blocking from 2020 better than they graded Fant's 2021 pass blocking.

If Becton is healthy he's the LT.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

In fairness he was coming off a knee injury and didnt play much in Seattle as a rookie or in his second season.  That was it, not like he had a lot of history or tape to pick on.  

Yeas, most jumped he gun and wanted him cut.  Those have now moved onto Becton, who had the audacity to have a knee injury that was apparently more severe and would require more time to rehab than first estimated 

No, but it wasn't a lot of tape aside from that either -- enough to pay him like an established starter. Of course by year 2 it's worked out. I fully admit I thought $9MM/yr for Fant was a crazy overpayment for someone who couldn't earn the starter role his last year in Seattle, whereby Ifedi - the guy who beat him out for the starter job - was only offered a veteran minimum contract from Chicago (who moved him to guard, too). 

So good on Douglas for being right on him in year 2, or maybe it's just that he moves better and feels more natural on the left side. I don't know; Fant sure sounded off like it'd be harder for him to move from RT when he had to do it on no notice after Becton's injury, but he's been a much better LT than RT for us (further supported by his losing out to Ifedi in 2019, but he also didn't lose the job to Moses this summer either).

Maybe throw in some better OL coaching I guess, too, since we saw an even greater regression in 2020 from McGovern, who also bounced back to at least average starter level again. Then again those coaching changes in 2021 didn't do much for GVR or Feeney (save his one good fill-in game) overall, nor McDermott or Edoga. It's not a stretch that there's got to be something more to work with in the first place, but Lewis had been at least an ok starter in the past - better than GVR performed this year, anyway - and he didn't seem to be winning the starting RG job when he suddenly retired in August. 

[freestater]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, but it wasn't a lot of tape aside from that either -- enough to pay him like an established starter. Of course by year 2 it's worked out. I fully admit I thought $9MM/yr for Fant was a crazy overpayment for someone who couldn't earn the starter role his last year in Seattle, whereby Ifedi - the guy who beat him out for the starter job - was only offered a veteran minimum contract from Chicago (who moved him to guard, too). 

So good on Douglas for being right on him in year 2, or maybe it's just that he moves better and feels more natural on the left side. I don't know; Fant sure sounded off like it'd be harder for him to move from RT when he had to do it on no notice after Becton's injury, but he's been a much better LT than RT for us (further supported by his losing out to Ifedi in 2019, but he also didn't lose the job to Moses this summer either).

Maybe throw in some better OL coaching I guess, too, since we saw an even greater regression in 2020 from McGovern, who also bounced back to at least average starter level again. Then again those coaching changes in 2021 didn't do much for GVR or Feeney (save his one good fill-in game) overall, nor McDermott or Edoga. It's not a stretch that there's got to be something more to work with in the first place, but Lewis had been at least an ok starter in the past - better than GVR performed this year, anyway - and he didn't seem to be winning the starting RG job when he suddenly retired in August. 

I could see (hope to see) JD pick up a T in the 2nd. There's a couple smaller school kids who should probably go in that range. Penning and Raimann. Both probably go to the RT. IMO he needs to retain Moses, there's no way Edoga or McDermott should remain on the roster. Our depth at tackle can't fall off a cliff after the starter goes down. 

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, freestater said:

I could see (hope to see) JD pick up a T in the 2nd. There's a couple smaller school kids who should probably go in that range. Penning and Raimann. Both probably go to the RT. IMO he needs to retain Moses, there's no way Edoga or McDermott should remain on the roster. Our depth at tackle can't fall off a cliff after the starter goes down. 

I'm iffy on drafting another tackle this year, and am downright down on the idea if he does re-sign Moses. I'd rather he uses a 2nd round pick on a C/G, and keep round 1 picks for players at far more premium positions (where good starters aren't filled nearly as often by mid/late round picks).

Agree 100% on Edoga/McDermott. I've seen enough of both, though pff graded McDermott as Fant's equal last year lol. 

[jetsons]

6 hours ago, OilfieldJet said:

Draft OL in Round 1.

 

Not moving on from Becton, I hope he come back and is an all-pro. My confidence level in that, or even in his staying on the field for all 17 games, is less than 50%. Fant played well, yes, but I’m not prepared to risk the season, or Zach, or our running game on him. Too many positives for bringing on a low risk OL stud who may be a starter for 12 years to go a different direction.

The only OL in the 1st rd I'd be okay with is at Center with Linderbaum.