Bengals proving 5 year rebuilds are BS

[Biggs]

5 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Every situation, every team, every player is unique. 

To say that there is a "blueprint" to build a team and this how it is done is STUPID.

To say that because quarterback "x" did this in his rookie year, player "y" will do this. Or, not do this is STUPID.

It is fans trying to be geniuses. And I get that. We want to cling to something in order to have hope, or to hug on to despair.

Largest indicator of success in the NFL has been ownership and a philosophical belief and process of vetting and hiring great people  that have leadership qualities that guide the process. Above the GM level. Even that fails. 

I have been a huge advocate of the Jets ownership helping enable their GM in organizational decisions that help guide on-field decisions better. A buffer between ownership and the field general, if you will. 

One of the best tenants of great leadership is to realize what you are good at and what you are not. The Johnsons have not figured that out yet. They SEEM to be doing a little better with Douglas, and allowing a little more free rein. But they could provide him more tools. Douglas should not be the one to have to tell the team that they need better training facilities and practice areas. God knows what else is inept within the mechanism of the system that we don't see. For a billion+ $ organization, they seem to run on shoestring budgets and listen to the whim of the masses.  Invest in the  damn infrastructure. 

 

Stan Kronce spent 12 Billion of his own money to build Sofi Stadium.   The SB is in Sofi.  The Rams are in the SB.  If you don't think the owner didn't have something to do with both of those things you're missing the big picture.  The Jets and Giants both stink.  The Meadowlands is a disgrace of a venue for two teams that represent NYC.  

The Jets leader hasn't built anything in his life.  

[GreenReaper]

2 hours ago, Biggs said:

Matt Stafford is going to the SB.  He's very good replacement in Detroit just put up the worst record in the NFL.  Stafford did elevate the players around him.  Detroit without Stafford has been even worse.   He was in a division with a better franchise QB.  We are going to have the same issue in our division for years unless Allen gets hurt.  

 Cooper Kupp went from a 90+ catcher to an insane 145 reception season.  Matter of fact...Kupp won the Triple Crown with most catches, yards and TDs with Stafford slinging it to him..

[rangerous]

15 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

In two year they went from number one overall pick to possibly in the super bowl

JD, your plan doesn’t need 5 years 

it may not take 5 seasons but douglas hasn't been gm for 5 seasons either.  and the team that cincy fielded was filled with guys they had drafted prior to the new guy coming in.  they didn't need a wholesale house cleaning.  the point is you just can't compare the fortunes of these two teams directly.

[kevinc855]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

Little Kevin threads have become:

 

[Matt39]

6 minutes ago, rangerous said:

it may not take 5 seasons but douglas hasn't been gm for 5 seasons either.  and the team that cincy fielded was filled with guys they had drafted prior to the new guy coming in.  they didn't need a wholesale house cleaning.  the point is you just can't compare the fortunes of these two teams directly.

Sure. But you also need to see definitive proof that the roster and team is going in the right direction. So far that hasn’t been the case.

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, kevinc855 said:

I remember when you told me the Cleveland Browns were an example of how it can be done. 

[derp]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

Sure. But you also need to see definitive proof that the roster and team is going in the right direction. So far that hasn’t been the case.

What would be definitive proof the roster and the team are going in the right direction?

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, derp said:

What would be definitive proof the roster and the team are going in the right direction?

Young players producing. Touchdowns being scored. Edge rushers getting sacks. The training room not being full on a weekly basis.

[rangerous]

4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Sure. But you also need to see definitive proof that the roster and team is going in the right direction. So far that hasn’t been the case.

i think that just speaks to how decrepit the roster was before douglas became gm.

[derp]

13 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Young players producing. Touchdowns being scored. Edge rushers getting sacks. The training room not being full on a weekly basis.

Injuries are a huge problem. Think that impacts both the young player and edge rush production.

I was curious (and genuinely found this at least a little surprising) - Jets scored the most offensive touchdowns they have since 2015. Not a high bar but perhaps indicative of a degree of progress given the leading passer/rusher/receiver were rookies.

None of this is meant as an argument by the way. I was curious what would be definitive and even if there are degrees to everything your answer was very reasonable.

[Warfish]

16 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

JD, your plan doesn’t need 5 years 

No GM should need 5 years to take a team from last place to "average".

At most, that is a two-year exercise if done correctly.

JD has been given a mulligan for year 1 (with Gase, hired after the draft/FA started).

With that said, JD needs to put a competitive product on the field in 2022.  Doesn't need to get to a Super Bowl (that would be nice tho, lol), but we must be a 8-9/9-8 type product in 2022.  

No amount of "Jets Fans have never seen a True Rebuild" excuses, a No-True-Scotsman Fallacy on it's face, is acceptable. 

We have the assets to be a competitive team this coming year, if JD does his job and does it well.

 

[Bungaman]

15 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

Actually pretty much yea

JD won’t even make a playoff pledge for 2022 his 4th season as gm

All this pledge stuff is just BS. Where I can I buy my NYJ Promise Ring? That always works out well.

[Matt39]

15 minutes ago, derp said:

Injuries are a huge problem. Think that impacts both the young player and edge rush production.

I was curious (and genuinely found this at least a little surprising) - Jets scored the most offensive touchdowns they have since 2015. Not a high bar but perhaps indicative of a degree of progress given the leading passer/rusher/receiver were rookies.

None of this is meant as an argument by the way. I was curious what would be definitive and even if there are degrees to everything your answer was very reasonable.

No sweat. The endless talk about the rebuild and all…well how do you know when it’s actually working? It turned around for the Bengals awfully fast. 
 

The Jets need to figure out how to draft, including finding guys who don’t  seesaw to the trainers room over the field when they’re hurt. It’s all part of getting better.

[Warfish]

36 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I remember when you told me the Cleveland Browns were an example of how it can be done. 

From 3-13, 1-15 and 0-16 (4-44, wow), they went 7-8, 6-10, 11-5 and 8-9.

From complete crap, to average (or better).

It's certainly not perfect in Cleveland, but they're miles better than us right now.

Not saying you do this Scott, but as a fanbase, lets stop thinking the Jets are going to instantly jump to 12-5 overnight and then stay there.  We have to travel through the 8-9/9-8 zone first.  Doing so doesn't make the rebuild bad or suck or not "right" or whatever.  Being in the hunt, but not elite, for a few years as we keep building towards being elite is hella better than what we've been the past decade+.

[Biggs]

46 minutes ago, GreenReaper said:

 Cooper Kupp went from a 90+ catcher to an insane 145 reception season.  Matter of fact...Kupp won the Triple Crown with most catches, yards and TDs with Stafford slinging it to him..

Great point.  OBJ looked a little better with Stafford instead of Mayfield.  

[JoJoTownsell1]

16 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

In two year they went from number one overall pick to possibly in the super bowl

JD, your plan doesn’t need 5 years 

 

16 hours ago, slats said:

Zac Taylor, 6-25-1 in his first two seasons. 

100pct chance kevinc would be the type of poster demanding Taylor be fired after that start. 

[derp]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

No sweat. The endless talk about the rebuild and all…well how do you know when it’s actually working? It turned around for the Bengals awfully fast. 
 

The Jets need to figure out how to draft, including finding guys who don’t  seesaw to the trainers room over the field when they’re hurt. It’s all part of getting better.

Bengals are a great example of how quickly things breaking right compounds IMO. Burrow is awesome, they had the top pick a year that a record breaking guy came out and he’s exceeded expectation. Things start falling into place, couple other things break well and they’re playing for a Super Bowl.

My Dad is a Bengals fan so I follow them more than any non-Jets team. Don’t think they’ve really done much different as an organization, that Burrow pick was huge.

[kevinc855]

51 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I remember when you told me the Cleveland Browns were an example of how it can be done. 

I never said that…..

I said the Rams and Tampa are expamples of Teams who approached this building thing dif 

[peebag]

12 minutes ago, derp said:

Bengals are a great example of how quickly things breaking right compounds IMO. Burrow is awesome, they had the top pick a year that a record breaking guy came out and he’s exceeded expectation. Things start falling into place, couple other things break well and they’re playing for a Super Bowl.

My Dad is a Bengals fan so I follow them more than any non-Jets team. Don’t think they’ve really done much different as an organization, that Burrow pick was huge.

Ja'Marr Chase says "hi"!

[PepPep]

17 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

In two year they went from number one overall pick to possibly in the super bowl

JD, your plan doesn’t need 5 years 

And the Rams got here by trading the farm. Whats your point? There's more that one way to skin a cat. And I'm going to say it AGAIN because it deserves repeating. The Bengals stunk for what felt like eternity, garnering and spitting out young talent until they finally got to a point where they hit the jackpot with Burrow and some other great young talent.  

[Sonny Werblin]

2 hours ago, Biggs said:

Stan Kronce spent 12 Billion of his own money to build Sofi Stadium.   The SB is in Sofi.  The Rams are in the SB.  If you don't think the owner didn't have something to do with both of those things you're missing the big picture.  The Jets and Giants both stink.  The Meadowlands is a disgrace of a venue for two teams that represent NYC.  

The Jets leader hasn't built anything in his life.  

I think the same thing about MetLife whenever I see SoFi stadium. The Jets and Giants play for a City that used to pride itself on being the place to be. Yet their football teams play in a swamp in a pedestrian (from an experience and design standpoint) stadium. The greatest indoor stadium in the world should be in NYC. It clearly can be part of a much larger concept and need not even look like a stadium from the outside. It is a crying shame that NYC is not home to a showpiece stadium.

[Origen]

13 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I think the same thing about MetLife whenever I see SoFi stadium. The Jets and Giants play for the a City that used to pride itself on being the place to be. Yet their football teams play in a swamp in a pedestrian (from an experience and design standpoint) stadium. The greatest indoor stadium in the world should be in NYC. It clearly can be part of a much larger concept and need not even look like a stadium from the outside. It is a crying shame that NYC is not home to a showpiece stadium.

But the Garden has those "air bridge" thingees?!?!?

[FidelioJet]

Far too many of you seem to not understand the real mess Mke McCagnan left this franchise in...

Let's be very clear, last year was year 1 of the rebuild.

It just took two years to clean up Mac's mess.   That was always his goal.

That's just the reality.  Be mad, think it's a bad way to go about things - but this was what JD did.  

[Fantasy Island]

14 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

 

Let's say a QB there blows up and is heads and shoulders better than Zach.  We are on the clock at 4 pick, would JD have the balls to make that pick?  

Nope.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

 

With a QB like Garoppolo (and I wonder if the Jets try to pick him up as a bridge for Wilson), 

oh god i hope not.

after yesterday's game i hope to never seen a Jimmy G thread again.

 

[derp]

38 minutes ago, peebag said:

Ja'Marr Chase says "hi"!

Place that in "things start falling into place" or "a couple other things break well". Or both.

Chase sitting a year resulted in him being perceived as a riskier prospect. Folks seem to be forgetting that now coming off a monster year. Easy to bring them taking him back to Burrow. Obviously they could have taken him regardless, we'll never know if they would have, but having his QB from his elite year in college in the building probably didn't hurt. 

[Biggs]

Mims and Becton.  Burrow and Tee Higgins.  They picked a great kicker in the 5th.  We picked a decent punter.

[Hex]

7 hours ago, jamesr said:

Seeing a lot of comments here about how a franchise QB changes everything ... yet Matt Stafford still exists.

Was he not a franchise QB in Detroit all those years? How come he couldn't elevate all the players around him?   

Almost like it's a team sport or something!

It's because the Lions did absolutely nothing to help him, and when they did those great players retired early because the Lions suck. The Bengals gave him the tools he needed to make plays, and at least a solid defense. The 2020 Lions gave up more points in 16 games than the 2021 Jets did in 17. 

That's not really helping is it?

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, Origen said:

But the Garden has those "air bridge" thingees?!?!?

The Garden is still a great building with great access to mass transit.  It was also built in 1968.  Compared to Met Life it looks like it was built by a superior intelligence that hasn't landed on earth yet. 

[Biggs]

18 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

In two year they went from number one overall pick to possibly in the super bowl

JD, your plan doesn’t need 5 years 

We draft players we have to lift.  Joe Burrow lifted the entire organization. 

[Scott Dierking]

1 hour ago, Fantasy Island said:

Let's say a QB there blows up and is heads and shoulders better than Zach.  We are on the clock at 4 pick, would JD have the balls to make that pick?  

Nope.

Just curious if in the history of the NFL a GM has had the "balls" to select a qb in the first round, the preceding year that he picked another qb in the first round.

I don't know. But I bet not many GM's have had those "balls".

[varjet]

In retrospect, one could argue that the higher rated talents, regardless of position, were Chase and Pitts, and that is who the Jets should have picked, kept Darnold and sought a veteran QB option, such as Garoppolo.  I think that is a team with a better record than we saw last year and will see this year. 

JD’s first 1.5 years here were “practice”.  His time with Saleh is his real time.  I don’t think 2022 is an 8-9 win team-I am hoping for 6-7.  This draft will not provide the Jets with the Burrow/Chase injection that they need to make that type of jump.   2023 needs to be playoff competitive.  

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, varjet said:

In retrospect, one could argue that the higher rated talents, regardless of position, were Chase and Pitts, and that is who the Jets should have picked, kept Darnold and sought a veteran QB option, such as Garoppolo.  I think that is a team with a better record than we saw last year and will see this year. 

JD’s first 1.5 years here were “practice”.  His time with Saleh is his real time.  I don’t think 2022 is an 8-9 win team-I am hoping for 6-7.  This draft will not provide the Jets with the Burrow/Chase injection that they need to make that type of jump.   2023 needs to be playoff competitive.  

You could argue they should have traded Darnold taken Pitts or Chase and drafted Mills.  There's a million arguments you can make.  There is no argument for Keeping Darnold when you could get a high 2 for him.   Darnolds value dropped since we traded him.  

[jamesr]

20 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Just curious if in the history of the NFL a GM has had the "balls" to select a qb in the first round, the preceding year that he picked another qb in the first round.

I don't know. But I bet not many GM's have had those "balls".

Arizona drafted Murray the year after they drafted Rosen. Same GM, only the HC was different.

 

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

Mims and Becton.  Burrow and Tee Higgins.  They picked a great kicker in the 5th.  We picked a decent punter.

The 2020 draft was worse than Idziks. Just incompetence at an astonishing level. Wirfs, Lamb, or Jefferson being on this roster alone would have made a huge difference.