Another Bowers thread? Yup

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, TheAustrian said:

Like Zach Wilson?

Zach Wilson wouldn’t even make the CFL equivalent of the Pro Bowl.

[Barton]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

In 2022 he had 914 yards and 6 TDs.  He’s thus cracked 900+ twice.  With Pro Bowl appearances in 2020 and 2022.  

“Awful”, huh. 

Good call. Stat sheet showed 500+.  Didn’t see the other team he played for in 2022. That is good production for sure the last 2 years for Hock. It did take him until year 4 to show it though. We need production right away from this #10 pick. Maybe Bowers helps . 

[Ghost]

40 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Hockenson is “awful”?

Dude just put up back to back -950 yard seasons, with 5-6 TD’s and is a very good blocker. In what universe is that awful?

My bad. I didn’t see his name. 

[Scotty Wooty Doo Doo]

He's already hurt ,, pass !!

[Integrity28]

10 hours ago, AFJF said:

Thought this article was fantastic an the accompanying stat that really jumped out at me.  Link to full article at bottom.

As I've said many times in endorsing Bowers at 10, YAC is king in today's NFL.

 

Bowers’ average yards after the catch was higher than any of this year’s consensus top three wide receivers in Marvin Harrison Jr. (5.1), Rome Odunze (5.2) and Malik Nabers (6.6), while also registering an explosive reception on 5.9% of his routes, which ranked third among tight ends since 2019.

Brock Bowers is this NFL Draft's marquee enigma. He's also worthy of the hype - Yahoo Sports

 

Man, you guys are going to get me to change my stance, aren’t you?

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Barton said:

Good call. Stat sheet showed 500+.  Didn’t see the other team he played for in 2022. That is good production for sure the last 2 years for Hock. It did take him until year 4 to show it though. We need production right away from this #10 pick. Maybe Bowers helps . 

He certainly will help right away a lot more than Conklin ever could.  And I’d also be excited to see a few Bowers/Ruckert 2-TE sets, if only for the boners it would give @Paradis

[viffer]

7 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

That was kinda my point. Wr is a far more important position than TE.

Guess How many WRs put up better numbers this past college football season than bowers?  

100.  

last year in the nfl there’s was 1 1000 yard receiving TE. George Kittle, who finished 24th in the league in receiving yards.

id rather have a high end WR every day of the week over a high end TE. The high end Wr will out produce the high end TE

Tell that to Kelce and Gronk. Tight ends move the chains. A receiver can get big chunks of yards in a single play, but TE's consistently get the first downs and keep the ball moving. How many 3-and-outs did we have each of the last several (or several dozen for that matter) years?

I agree, all else being equal, a receiver is more important than a tight end. But we have two great receivers now, and no one who can consistently move the chains. I would agree that if one of the top receivers, like MHJ, is there at 10, take him. But if not, get the guy who can move the chains consistently.

[bonkertons]

9 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Man you guys are obsessed with bowers lol. 

I think it's because no one thought we'd have a chance to take him.  I'm a pretty bad draft addict and will start looking at mocks a year in advance.  Once we traded for Rodgers, guys like Caleb, MHJ and Bowers became a pipe dream to most of us.  Then suddenly Rodgers goes down and they become actual possibilities.  Then we get "hot" at the end of the year, and they become pipedreams again.

 

Now, lucky for us, the position Bowers plays looks like it's going to cause him to drop right into our range.  I think sometimes you just need to thank the football gods and take advantage of an elite player falling into your lap.  

[JustInFudge]

21 minutes ago, slats said:

I don’t follow college ball. For many years now, I’ve appreciated your opinions on prospects and this one is no different. If Douglas agrees with you and pulls the trigger, I’ll hope you’re right. I’m certainly not arguing that you’re not. 
 
I don’t give much credence to what JD’s short list may’ve been last year, I’m going by his actions. In the first two rounds, he goes after premium positions. The only times he hasn’t have been for interior OL and Breece. Does he see Bowers like Breece? The low value position with too much juice to pass up? I guess we’ll see. I don’t think you can take him if one of the top three WRs is there, and I just have a hard time seeing Douglas use a top ten pick on a TE. While at #10 you can come away with a very good/solid starter at OT or WR without much complaint, a very good/solid starting TE would be a massive disappointment in the same spot. The top ten TE would need to be near HoF quality as a rookie in order to keep the heat off a GM drafting for his job here. As we all know, he will be compared to all the players taken after him in the first round, and any TE taken two or three rounds later who has a better rookie season. I think the risk is too high. 

IMO next to MHJ, Bowers is the safest pick in the draft.  That said, I do agree if either Nabers or Odunze is there, I think he'll prioritize them over Bowers but if they're gone, I do think it's Bowers.  There isnt a player who will be available who can make a bigger impact.  It's hard to remember those things called TD's but they're super important to winning Football games and a run of the mill T prospect, aint going to make a difference on this team.  It HAS to be a play maker. 

Eliminating Hall who plays RB and had 4 receiving TD's.  The actual receiver?  Garrett Wilson had 3.  Lazard, Cobb, Uzomah and Brownlee all had 1.   The Jets as a whole had 11 TD's and 15 INT"s.  Like, I dont understand how anyone doesnt see how desperate the Jets are for people who can do this thing called, score.

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Hockenson is “awful”?

Dude just put up back to back -950 yard seasons, with 5-6 TD’s and is a very good blocker. In what universe is that awful?

Hockenson is very good, and I would assume that he just missed him on the list. He went eighth overall in a not particularly great draft, and was a defensible pick, though he didn't really start producing until his third year in the league. If you are redrafting that year with full knowledge now, he probably still squeaks into the top 15. And he's not a game changer. That's probably the best outcome you can expect from a Top-10 TE: you won't be embarrassed you picked him. And history says that's no guarantee. 

1 hour ago, slats said:

Let’s face it, CMC is a unicorn. Are you saying Bowers is another one? Because he’ll need to be to justify the pick. I’m not saying the Bowers isn’t going to be good or great, he could be the GOAT for all I know. The problem is that if he’s not Kelce/Kittle, he’ll be labeled a bust - fair or not. My take isn’t against Bowers, my take is that JD won’t take that risk. 

That's it exactly, and also kittle and Kelce weren't kittle and Kelce in their first year or two in the league. Tight ends generally take some time to develop. So if the argument for drafting him is that he's NFL ready and you can expect him to contribute right away, that's unlikely

[Claymation]

8 hours ago, Mr. Rogers said:

I have been feeling the same. Something sets off alarm bells for me with this guy... I know that's corny, but I'm almost always a fan of LSU receiver products and this is the first time where I fear his ceiling is like a Gabe Davis or Corey Davis. Just more of a WR2 ceiling despite the athleticism, I didn't see the intuition, route running or hands I'd expect from a top 10 pick with this guy even though the potential is monstrous. 

For me, I'd rather move back and see who's left of Fashanu, Fuaga, Latham, etc. And then have a good look through the round 2/3 WRs. When comparing hit rate in r1 vs r2/r3 nowadays, OL is a lot safer early whereas top WR talent comes into the NFL every year in rounds 2 and 3. Scouts just gotta do better than.... Elijah Moore.......

His name is Brian Thomas, the Jets have had their fill of Bryan Thomases. That is a big alarm bell right there.

[nycdan]

8 hours ago, David Harris said:

Trading John Abraham for Nick Mangold was a mistake.  We all love our Viking center, I’m sure I’d love Brock Bowers. But position matters, there’s a reason centers, LBs, safeties and tight ends don’t get drafted top 10.  

Edge > C

OT/WR > TE
 

I’d be excited for Bowers but I’m going with history which has shown certain positions are more valuable than others and not crossing my fingers that I got the one unicorn (we already tried that with Jamal Adams).

A full season of Spencer Long puts the lie to this.

First of all, it wasn't a direct trade.  They traded him for the 29th pick.  They didn't believe he would fit with the scheme change.  Maybe right, maybe wrong.  But regardless, Mangold was a phenomenal choice with that pick.  You could make a case that the two AFCCG appearances don't necessarily happen without him anchoring that incredible OL.

[MR.GANGGREEN28]

10 hours ago, Untouchable said:

People can take their supposed “premium positions” and stick them up their collective assh0les. 

League average guards now make $16-17 million a year after every dickhead from here to Timbuktu told me I was a nutter for wanting Quenton Nelson at #6 before we ultimately moved up for Darnold.

Dudes like Kelce, Kittle, LaPorta, Andrews, etc are some of the premier offensive weapons in the game today. Stop telling me that drafting arguably the best TE prospect to ever step out of the college ranks is some sort of batsh*t fools errand at #10 after you’ve already attacked the hell out of the OL in FA and landed your #2 wideout opposite Wilson.

Two years fellas before we go back to bottom of the sh*t barrel QB play and a completely inept offense as a whole. Better utilize the time you have.

What he said.. don't get left in the dust like me

[bonkertons]

38 minutes ago, Barton said:

Good call. Stat sheet showed 500+.  Didn’t see the other team he played for in 2022. That is good production for sure the last 2 years for Hock. It did take him until year 4 to show it though. We need production right away from this #10 pick. Maybe Bowers helps . 

Hockenson was a Pro Bowler by year 2.  He outproduced Conklin's best year that season.  

 

I think the impact guys like Kincaid and Laporta had as rookies is pretty encouraging and a definite plus for the pro-Bowers crowd.  The league is changing, and elite TEs are becoming more of a necessity than a luxury, at least if you want to go on a deep run.  I understand the thinking that "you typically only find elite TEs in rounds 3-5", but let's be honest...we're never going to be the ones to find that guy.  We are never going to draft a Kelce in the 3rd or a Kittle in the 5th.  

 

If we want an elite one, this is probably our best shot.  

[Jet Nut]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I've said it before i'll say it again.

I like Bowers a lot and will be fine with the jets picking him but I have ZERO confidence that Hackett can make proper use of him.

With an HB/TE weapon you have to go out of your way to make the best use of him.  I see hackett going, oh, a tight end, lets do all the tight end things.

I see the importance of a Kelce and a big reason for his production is he’s a great escape valve for Mahomes when his primary WR is covered.  Non scripted plays when he slips away from coverage, along with the scripted plays called for the TE

[Morrissey]

10 hours ago, Untouchable said:

People can take their supposed “premium positions” and stick them up their collective assh0les. 

League average guards now make $16-17 million a year after every dickhead from here to Timbuktu told me I was a nutter for wanting Quenton Nelson at #6 before we ultimately moved up for Darnold.

Dudes like Kelce, Kittle, LaPorta, Andrews, etc are some of the premier offensive weapons in the game today. Stop telling me that drafting arguably the best TE prospect to ever step out of the college ranks is some sort of batsh*t fools errand at #10 after you’ve already attacked the hell out of the OL in FA and landed your #2 wideout opposite Wilson.

Two years fellas before we go back to bottom of the sh*t barrel QB play and a completely inept offense as a whole. Better utilize the time you have.

2 years until rock bottom? Awww. We stay in the basement if we again rely on aging and or often injured offensive linemen. Insanity is making the same mistake and expecting a different outcome. Draft Bowers people are insane and have zero foresight.

[Larz]

Your Twitter post pointed out something like 800 snaps in the slot and 5 rushing TDs. He’s just a baller. 
 

I would be happy with the pick 

[doitny]

1 hour ago, JustInFudge said:

We've discussed this too.  Conklin cant run routes.  He's not a dynamic player at all.  He is a JAG.  He's basically a check down queen / outlet guy who runs like he has rocks in his shoes.  He's never beat anyone on a route, he's never made anyone miss, he's catches the ball and goes down.  He's not scaring anyone as a receiver or scaring anyone w/ the ball in his hands.

This thread, illustrates the difference in the two players magically.  Conklin averages 4.2 yac, that's awful when you consider his air yard and depth of target is is 6.9 yards.  He had 27 1st downs on 67 catches and 0 TD's - it's like being part of the game but not actually doing anything that helps your team move the chains and/or score.  Compared to the #1 team in the nation's most dynamic playmaker, lead receiver, yac king, TD making, stud.   

It's like saying, we dont need Marvin Harrison Jr., we have Allen Lazard.

but at least he can catch the ball...LOL

but your right he is a check down queen just like the QB throwing to him.

[chirorob]

9 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Yup every playoff team last year has themselves three great receivers. 0 tight ends.

 

If Conklin had 60+ catches last year with THAT at QB, how many do you actually think he can have this year?

Why not just extend him, and use the pick on a WR or tackle, both of which will play this year, and be needed as starters next year,

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

55 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

IMO next to MHJ, Bowers is the safest pick in the draft.  That said, I do agree if either Nabers or Odunze is there, I think he'll prioritize them over Bowers but if they're gone, I do think it's Bowers.  There isnt a player who will be available who can make a bigger impact.  It's hard to remember those things called TD's but they're super important to winning Football games and a run of the mill T prospect, aint going to make a difference on this team.  It HAS to be a play maker. 

Eliminating Hall who plays RB and had 4 receiving TD's.  The actual receiver?  Garrett Wilson had 3.  Lazard, Cobb, Uzomah and Brownlee all had 1.   The Jets as a whole had 11 TD's and 15 INT"s.  Like, I dont understand how anyone doesnt see how desperate the Jets are for people who can do this thing called, score.

Points. We need them.

Haven't had them since 2015. 

[rayzor]

I'd be surprised if we take him at 10.   If they do, then fine.  He's not as injury prone as some are saying.  He had a high ankle sprain, had surgery and only missed 2 games.  His most recent "injury" was a hamstring tweak that prevented him from participating in recent drills.  I think they only go pass catcher for Harrison, Nabers or Odunze.  

[Bobby816]

3 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I'd be surprised if we take him at 10.   If they do, then fine.  He's not as injury prone as some are saying.  He had a high ankle sprain, had surgery and only missed 2 games.  His most recent "injury" was a hamstring tweak that prevented him from participating in recent drills.  I think they only go pass catcher for Harrison, Nabers or Odunze.  

He's not injury prone. It's a narrative for those who don't want him to use.

He played in all 15 games as a freshman. Played in all 15 games as a sophomore and played in 10 games this year . I believe that had him miss 3 games (he wouldn't have played in the Bowl Game I'm assuming).

So he started and played in 40/43 games. far prone injury prone if you ask me.

[NYJCAP2]

9 hours ago, PS17 said:

I’m trading up to 7 or 8 to get Odunze. Need to jump the Bears and the price shouldn’t be too high. Will be so worth it. 

Yes, I agree and I can hear it now…

Rome Odunze… future New York J…

 

 

 

 

 

-iant!

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Barton said:

He’s only cracked 800 yards once in 6 years. Before 2023, his production was worse than Conklin. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HockTJ00.htm

Slow Rookie Year (one reason to avoid Bowers, TE's almost always start slow in the NFL)

723/6 in his 2nd year

Hurt his 3rd year, 12 games, 583/4

4th year, 914/6

5th year, 960/5

So I have no idea where you're getting your claim. 

First, he hasn't played 6 years, 2023 was his 5th season.

Second, he clearly had 900+ in both 2022 and 2023.  Are you misreading 2022 as two seasons because he was traded?

To be VERY clear, I'm not arguing for or advocating for drafting Bowers.

I am specifically defending against the idea that T,J. Hockenson is "awful". 

Conklin, on the other hand https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ConkTy00.htm

Has never eclipsed 621 yards (he got that in 2023, his best season), nor has he caught for more than 3 TD's/Year, in his 6 NFL seasons.  Conklin has never produced better than Hockenson.

EDIT: Apparently the poster didn't realize his name was in the list.  So OK I removed some of my more flustered "wtf" comments in this post, lol.  

[Augustiniak]

27 minutes ago, chirorob said:

If Conklin had 60+ catches last year with THAT at QB, how many do you actually think he can have this year?

Why not just extend him, and use the pick on a WR or tackle, both of which will play this year, and be needed as starters next year,

But if you watch Conklin and bowers they’re two different athletes.  Bowers runs like a running back and actually works to get open.  He lines up a lot in the slot.  If the jets take bowers, he’s often the slot wr.  He’s a suprisingly good athlete, seems to have very good exceleration.  

 

[Dcat]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

The only way I’m taking Bowers in the first is if I trade back to the mid-teens and receive a 2nd round pick. There’s no way I am taking Bowers at 10 and not making again until the 3rd round. 

^This!

[NYJCAP2]

4 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

But if you watch Conklin and bowers they’re two different athletes.  Bowers runs like a running back and actually works to get open.  He lines up a lot in the slot.  If the jets take bowers, he’s often the slot wr.  He’s a suprisingly good athlete, seems to have very good exceleration.  

 

That’s also the counter argument, just take a real WR at 10, and not mess with this hybrid ambiguous position, on a running team.

[NYJCAP2]

9 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

 

• I'm a Breece Hall truther. He's the Prince that Was Promised, the Lisan Al Gaib, Prime Adrian Peterson (that can catch); our best weapon and, IMO, outside of the aging McCaffrey, the best RB in the league. If my offensive line can open holes, then I can take a massive amount of pressure off our 40-year-old quarterback. This team doesn't need Brock Bowers like it needs consistent success on the offensive line. I don't want to be a pass-first team while we have a 22-year-old Breece Hall and a 40-year-old quarterback.

 

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Wasn’t a first round pick.

Thats kind of the point — exceedingly difficult position to project to the NFL level where top ten picks are often totally irrelevant and the majority of elite players go after the first.

Just such a high bust rate.

Why don't people realize this?  The vast majority of the great TEs are not 1st rounders and the vast majority of 1st rd TEs don't perform to the level expected of a 1st rounder.  Even Hockenson, who was picked at 11, has only recently emerged. 

In addition, TEs don't perform instantly (rookie seasons - LaPorta being an exception) and the Jets are the most win-now team I've ever witnessed.  

Bowers makes no sense for this team at this point in time.  People aren't thinking clearly. I sure hope JD is.

 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

Hockenson is very good, and I would assume that he just missed him on the list. He went eighth overall in a not particularly great draft, and was a defensible pick, though he didn't really start producing until his third year in the league. If you are redrafting that year with full knowledge now, he probably still squeaks into the top 15. And he's not a game changer. That's probably the best outcome you can expect from a Top-10 TE: you won't be embarrassed you picked him. And history says that's no guarantee. 

That's it exactly, and also kittle and Kelce weren't kittle and Kelce in their first year or two in the league. Tight ends generally take some time to develop. So if the argument for drafting him is that he's NFL ready and you can expect him to contribute right away, that's unlikely

Again, I was defending specifically the "awful" comment, not advocating for drafting a TE at #10.

I do not support a Bowers pick at #10.  Not ony for the reasons you cite (slow to develop/produce, longish transition to time to NFL gamespeed and brutality in blocking, etc.) but because Bowers is undersized (Plays at ~230) and I don't believe he's going to be a very good blocker at the NFL level ever, much less immediately. 

I think I can get what he provides sooner, and cheaper, by drafting Johnny Wilson (6'7", 231, RAS Score of 9.68) from Florida State in the 3rd or 4th round.  Wilson won't block like a TE or play that spot, but otherwise I believe he has the capability of producing in a very similar role in the passing game as a #3/#4 WR.

Also, I like Cade Stover at TE in the mid-rounds as well, I think Ruckert/Stover/Kuntz is a fine future at the TE position.

Personally, I still go OT or WR at #10, or trade down if at all possible for more picks (my real preference, but hardest to do).

[Augustiniak]

7 minutes ago, NYJCAP2 said:

That’s also the counter argument, just take a real WR at 10, and not mess with this hybrid ambiguous position, on a running team.

All things being equal yes.  But, i do think bowers is going to be very good.

[bonkertons]

One of the most encouraging things about Bowers is his consistency in college.  There was no learning curve.  Dude just balled out from day one and put up monster numbers.  There's very little "projection" there IMO.  A lot of elite TE prospects get drafted high after one season of production.  Bowers has three.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, bonkertons said:

One of the most encouraging things about Bowers is his consistency in college.  There was no learning curve.  Dude just balled out from day one and put up monster numbers.  There's very little "projection" there IMO.  A lot of elite TE prospects get drafted high after one season of production.  Bowers has three.

I think b/c he’s a hybrid wr/te

[rbstern]

3 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Not being a college football junkie I didn't watch a lot of Georgia football .. can someone tell me if he took a lot of punishment and got a lot of his YAC at the expense of his body ? Just wondering if that will take an early toll in the NFL.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

 

Watched every game he played.

He rarely got blasted because his body control is so good.  Defenders couldn't tee him up because he is shifty, has great balance, and dances out of tackles that knock over cement-footed TEs.  He made people miss in a way that TEs don't normally do.  He also shakes off or drags lighter defenders who are trying to pull him down.  Most TEs catch a ball, and with the occasional exception of hurdling, can't avoid defenders.  Bowers is on another plane in that regard.  His transition from catch to run is also exceptionally quick and balanced, so he's not as vulnerable at that moment.  If he catches a ball in a tight box with two or three defenders draped on him, yes, he goes down, as any football player does, but he wasn't getting blown up.

On the other hand, this is not a guy who is contact shy.  He lowers his shoulder into defenders when there's no room for maneuver, and he's an aggressive blocker, regardless of the defender's size.  He's got good power.

He's a rare combo of traits.  Never seen one like him.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

The Bowers hype and the vehemence with which he is touted (by some, not all) are unreal.

He ain’t getting any YAC sitting on IR with torn hamstrings and high ankle sprains.