Prove me wrong

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

So right. LOL. A brutal bunch we Fans can be.

Start a poll querying whether Namath, Cmart, or Revis was an all time great. I double dare ya.

Bring a mouth guard.

[Jets723]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yet we still draft DT’s with our first pick?



Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

24:25:31

I still dont get what the problem was drafting Williams?  Him or Allen would of been great picks. There were no offensive players worth passing them up for. Pretty much every analyst has said the same thing

[genot]

5 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

Okay. A guy who made the pro bowl in 2016-17 but had a down year last year. Coming off of injuries to his knee and toe.

But Osemele's play slipped last season as he battled knee and toe injuries, missing a total of five games. There were rumors that he'd be shipped out before the trading deadline, but he made it through the season on a poor offensive line. Quarterback Derek Carr was sacked 51 times.

Osemele has two years remaining on his contract, with cap charges of $10.2 million and $11.7 million. None of his remaining salary is guaranteed. The Jets have more than $90 million in cap space.

In recent days, there was speculation that Osemele, who turns 30 on June 24, would be cut. In February, he released video on Twitter that suggested he's determined to have a bounce-back year. He tweeted that 2019 would be devoted to "health and wellness" and he showed himself tipping the scale at 296 pounds.

You then go on to say how he drafted a guy who can compete with the scrubs we have. Why am I not excited? We are talking about Macc's draft performance pal. 30 year old beat up OL and project guys ain't getting it done. NEXT.

So you wouldn't have traded for Osemele. Would you have drafted an O-lineman with the 3rd pick??? I'm trying to find out who are these stud, young offensive lineman that Mac has been ignoring. please tell me.

[playtowinthegame]

49 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Well it is easier to find a starter on a bad team than it is to draft starters on a Super Bowl level team.

But I agree with the premise, the draft is way more of a crap shoot than people admit.

Patriots are good at identifying players they want in restricted free agency as well. They had an article on it at the Ringer. 

[jgb]

58 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Well it is easier to find a starter on a bad team than it is to draft starters on a Super Bowl level team.

But I agree with the premise, the draft is way more of a crap shoot than people admit.

Precisely why the Idzik Dirty Dozen is an epic choke job

[Bomberjet]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

Edelman, Brady and Gronk who are their three best players on offense were all drafted by Belichick. All 3 would obviously be the Jets best player.

You can say that for ANY team those 3 are placed in ,  in the NFL, lol

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, Bomberjet said:

You can say that for ANY team those 3 are placed in ,  in the NFL, lol

Right. So the Patriots aCtuAlly being bad at the draft is an odd angle.

[BroadwayRay]

These stats say more about the Patriots' drafts being over-rated than the Jets drafts being good. I think I saw a headline  yesterday that said, "Patriots Win Draft Yet Again," and just shook my head. Anything Belichick does is going to be praised by the lemmings in the media. But his draft selections haven't been anything special. He misses on picks at about the same rate as any other average GM. What he has been good at lately, however, is stockpiling draft picks, mainly due to the free agent compensation system. What Belichick is a genius at, both on the field and in the front office, is finding a weakness in a system and exploiting it. That's how he had so many third and fourth round draft picks this year.

[dbatesman]

The team is 16 games under .500 with zero playoff appearances since he got here.

[jetspenguin]

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.
I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.
 
2015-2018 Drafts
JETS - 28 picks 
Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)
9 are starters (32%)
 
Patriots - 33 picks
Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)
4 are starters (12%)
 
So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

This is hilarious...

We have more scrubs sticking because we are desperate. They can afford to cut players more easily than we can.

Would you rather have more players that stick and a shatty record or cut more players and 6 Superbowls?

Sent from the Suicide Watch desk.

[New York Mick]

How many of the Patriots picks were top 10, 5 etc in every round? Obviously a player drafted 3rd has a better chance then a player drafted 30th or a player drafted 35th has a better chance then 60th etc. Especially if they’re replacing a jag.  

[CurtMart]

1 hour ago, ECURB said:

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.

I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.

 

2015-2018 Drafts

JETS - 28 picks 

Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)

9 are starters (32%)

 

Patriots - 33 picks

Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)

4 are starters (12%)

 

So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

Once Macc wins 6 SBs, we can start giving him a pass too. Until then, he sucks at everything we were told he was good at. 

[Vader]

1 hour ago, ECURB said:

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.

I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.

 

2015-2018 Drafts

JETS - 28 picks 

Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)

9 are starters (32%)

 

Patriots - 33 picks

Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)

4 are starters (12%)

 

So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

not sticking on a team that perennially wins the SB is NOT the same as not sticking on a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in like a decade 

[T0mShane]

12 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

The team is 16 games under .500 with zero playoff appearances since he got here.

Counterpoint: they did not burn a second round pick on Jordan Richards 

[Jetsplayer21]

1 hour ago, ECURB said:

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.

I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.

 

2015-2018 Drafts

JETS - 28 picks 

Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)

9 are starters (32%)

 

Patriots - 33 picks

Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)

4 are starters (12%)

 

So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

Do you give points for being the gm who picks in top 6 every year ?‍♂️ Mac gets to pick almost first in every round, while the pats pick last or 2nd to almost every year. Bb finds talent, mac has shown he can only make the obvious picks.Anyone who defends one of the worst gms in nfl has weak dreams for the jets?‍♂️

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Anyone who defends one of the worst gms in nfl has weak dreams for the jets

Been looking for a new signature. And I love @Marko Cavka quotes. 

[Long Island Leprechaun]

1 hour ago, JetFaninMI said:

A project to say the least. How many has he drafted since he got the job? How many has he drafted since he drafted SAM? How many has he drafted with a 1st or 2nd round pick? You know since he drafted the FRANCHISE QB? HOW MANY?

Wait, what? How many has he drafted in the first and second since he drafted Darnold? That would be last year and this. The only relevant spot would be this year's first round pick at #3, since both years we have had no second round pick and last year Darnold was drafted with the #3 they moved up to. So this is idiotic. How many he drafted since he got the job? B y my count, three. Harrison, Shell, and Edoga. All later picks. That is a fair point for sure. Overall, OL has been neglected as a priority position. Even this year, Mac seems to have the idea that grabbing UDFA's is the way to find a diamond in the rough. For that he deserves all the criticism he gets.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

41 minutes ago, Bomberjet said:

You can say that for ANY team those 3 are placed in ,  in the NFL, lol

Also, you have to compare apples to apples. Edelman was drafted in 2009, Gronk in 2010, and Brady in 2000. That has nothing to do with the Mac era, when both were picking from the same pool.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Edelman, Brady and Gronk who are their three best players on offense were all drafted by Belichick. All 3 would obviously be the Jets best player.

Edelman??? Really?? The best player on the Jets??  Sorry Matt, that's laughable.  He's a product of the system, that's all.  Wes Welker and Danny Amendola were both as effective as Edelman while with the Patriocheats, minus the steroids.  He's a good player, not a great one. Patrick Chung is almost 100 years old and is also a product of the system.  Nothing special.  

Jamal Adams had more solo tackles than Devin McCourty had in total tackles.  McCourty had one tackle for a loss and no quarterback hits.  Adams had nine tackles for a loss and eight quarterback hits.  Adams had 3.5 sacks, McCourty had none. McCourty had four passes defensed, Adams had 12. Adams was an All Pro.  McCourty??  The two players are not even comparable.  Did  @TomShane put you up to this??

It is common knowledge that Bill Bellicheat is not a drafting Genius.  His genius is in his system and coaching ability.

[Lith]

Here are some facts from Pro Football Reference.  Jets v Pats draft from 2015-18 by round.  Average pick #, Games Played, Games Started and PFRs approximate value stat.

Team	Rnd	# Players	Average Pick #	Average Games Played	PFR Career Approx Value	Average Games Started
Jets	1	4	8.75	37.25	18.50	36.0
	2 - 7	24	141.83	17.88	3.33	5.7
Jets Total		28	122.82	20.64	5.50	10.0
Pats	1	3	28.67	24.33	11.67	19.7
	2 - 7	30	155.47	22.07	5.83	9.0
Pats Total		33	143.94	22.27	6.36	9.9

Jets average first round pick has been 9th (8.75) compared with Patriots 29th (28.67).  Given the average difference of 20 draft slots, you would expect our first rounders to be more productive than theirs, and they are.  Our average first rounder has played in 37.25 games and started 36; compared to 24.3 and 19.7 respectively for them.  Average Value of our 1st rounders is 18.5 vs 11.67 for them.  To be expected when you are comparing an average 9th pick to an average 29th pick. 

Once you get past round 1, though, the analysis favors the Pats: 9 average starts vs 5.7 and 5.86 average value vs 3.3 and 22 game appearances vs 18.  This is despite the fact that their average pick is later than ours (155 v 141).  Despite the advantage in Round 1, our overall draft record is very similar to the Pats, and they have found players who have been more productive than we have in R2 - R7.

This analysis inlcudes all drafted players, regardless of whether still with the team or not (Trey Flowers, for example, was a good pick for the Patriots even though he is now a Lion).

 

[The Crusher]

2 hours ago, ECURB said:

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.

I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.

 

2015-2018 Drafts

JETS - 28 picks 

Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)

9 are starters (32%)

 

Patriots - 33 picks

Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)

4 are starters (12%)

 

So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

Wins?

[Jetsplayer21]

20 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Edelman??? Really?? The best player on the Jets??  Sorry Matt, that's laughable.  He's a product of the system, that's all.  Wes Welker and Danny Amendola were both as effective as Edelman while with the Patriocheats, minus the steroids.  He's a good player, not a great one. Patrick Chung is almost 100 years old and is also a product of the system.  Nothing special.  

Jamal Adams had more solo tackles than Devin McCourty had in total tackles.  McCourty had one tackle for a loss and no quarterback hits.  Adams had nine tackles for a loss and eight quarterback hits.  Adams had 3.5 sacks, McCourty had none. McCourty had four passes defensed, Adams had 12. Adams was an All Pro.  McCourty??  The two players are not even comparable.  Did  @TomShane put you up to this??

It is common knowledge that Bill Bellicheat is not a drafting Genius.  His genius is in his system and coaching ability.

Lol.. ya im sure there is one day out of the yr bb wishes he was mac. Draft day ! While bb has to settle for the last pick of first round, mac gets to pick what the whole world says “ is the best player in the entire draft “ every  yr ?‍♂️Wow that must be so hard ?

[Long Island Leprechaun]

2 hours ago, ECURB said:

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.

I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.

 

2015-2018 Drafts

JETS - 28 picks 

Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)

9 are starters (32%)

 

Patriots - 33 picks

Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)

4 are starters (12%)

 

So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

I used your methodology for the Packers. Question remains whether these numbers are proportional to win/loss record. Below based on 2018 roster from drafts of 2015-2018. Packers were 23-24 over 2016 - 2018.

7 starters  7/36 = 19%

19/36 = 53% still on the team

 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Its hard to make the Patriots team. This team started Darron Lee at LB and Spencer Long, a guy who couldn't effectively execute a  shotgun snap at Center for almost an entire year. 

We just drafted a replacement for a former #6 pick, a replacement for several recent attempts at OLB, a replacement for a former 1st round ILB, and a replacement for several recent attempts at TE.

 

So, there you go. 

Come on, Jet my friend, try to be fair here.  Quinnen Williams was not drafted as a "replacement" for Leo, and will make him more effective.  Not the same type of player.  You know I have no love lost for Leo, but to say that "Q" was drafted for any reason other than his ability and potential is disingenuous.

  Jachai Polite was drafted as our edge rusher, a position who everyone was yelling that we needed to fill, rightly so.  His skill set is different than any other player on this roster.  He is an addition, a welcome one, not a replacement.

The inadequacies in Darron Lee's game are well discussed, so I won't go there.  The fact of the matter is that Williamson and Moseley were brought here to be more effective and conventional inside linebackers.  The addition of Cashman is just that.  A live, active, and effective player who was drafted at a good slot given his skill and history, who will contribute in the rotation and on special teams.  Not a replacement, an addition.

The tight  end argument is the most perplexing.  Exactly who do the Jets have at tight end who compares to the skill set offered by the rookie Wesco?  In truth, there are few tight ends on any roster in the league who possess his unique skill set.  Are you saying that Herndon is insufficient?  I know you better than that.  Leggett is a receiving tight end,  not the same.  The only one you may have in mind is Tomlinson, who is horrible and needs to be replaced. He was an undrafted free agent, so I don't know how that is a negative reflection on the Jets drafting history.  Regards.

[ECURB]

2 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

LOL I love this thread, but its going to die a quick death. Simply because you're only presenting facts, and asking the JN naysayers to refute them with a fact based answer.

This won't go over well. My prediction is one of them starts another "Macc can't draft" thread where they can console each other by posting he should be fired, and the Johnson's should sell the team. This makes them both happy and miserable at the same time, which is right up their alley.

Still zero factual responses as I expected... The haters just spew their feelings.. nothing more.

[ECURB]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Counterpoint: they did not burn a second round pick on Jordan Richards 

I see some people actually doing some homework and making real points... Waiting on you and the other haters to step up. Even if you are right it's all good... Just prove it.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, ECURB said:

Still zero factual responses as I expected... The haters just spew their feelings.. nothing more.

What is the point you're trying to make? Belichick actually isnt good and the only difference between the Jets and Patriots is Tom Brady? I mean...

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

36 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Lol.. ya im sure there is one day out of the yr bb wishes he was mac. Draft day ! While bb has to settle for the last pick of first round, mac gets to pick what the whole world says “ is the best player in the entire draft “ every  yr ?‍♂️Wow that must be so hard ?

And your point is exactly what??  As usual, and expected, more Maccagnan blind hate, and a reply that has no substance, veracity, or facts.  Just half sentences with obnoxious childlike emojis.  Great post.

  Funny thing is, that I didn't even mention Mike Maccagnan, yet you turned it into a referendum on him, as usual.  Your infatuation with him is telling.

  Please try to write in complete sentences, your nonsense would then be easier to decipher.  Need a crayon??

[Jet_Engine1]

9 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Come on, Jet my friend, try to be fair here.  Quinnen Williams was not drafted as a "replacement" for Leo, and will make him more effective.  Not the same type of player.  You know I have no love lost for Leo, but to say that "Q" was drafted for any reason other than his ability and potential is disingenuous.

  Jachai Polite was drafted as our edge rusher, a position who everyone was yelling that we needed to fill, rightly so.  His skill set is different than any other player on this roster.  He is an addition, a welcome one, not a replacement.

The inadequacies in Darron Lee's game are well discussed, so I won't go there.  The fact of the matter is that Williamson and Moseley were brought here to be more effective and conventional inside linebackers.  The addition of Cashman is just that.  A live, active, and effective player who was drafted at a good slot given his skill and history, who will contribute in the rotation and on special teams.  Not a replacement, an addition.

The tight  end argument is the most perplexing.  Exactly who do the Jets have at tight end who compares to the skill set offered by the rookie Wesco?  In truth, there are few tight ends on any roster in the league who possess his unique skill set.  Are you saying that Herndon is insufficient?  I know you better than that.  Leggett is a receiving tight end,  not the same.  The only one you may have in mind is Tomlinson, who is horrible and needs to be replaced. He was an undrafted free agent, so I don't know how that is a negative reflection on the Jets drafting history.  Regards.

We shouldn't have to draft another guy at 3 to make a 6th overall "better", you pick guys at 6 to do that for others.....

 

Leo was supposed to make guys like McClendon "better". 

 

And we play a base 3-4....they just reinforced that by signing a 3-4 ILB (Mosley, who is NOT a 4-3 MLB) for $57M, resigned Anderson, and drafted a 3-4 OLB.

Its clear that there isn't any plan other than "BPA, regardless of fit, suitability, or strengths/weaknesses". 

 

Quinnen is good, but if Leo was what they said.he was going to be (Best player i  the draft!!!), we could have passed on the luxury of Q and filled multiple weaknesses on the team.....

 

That's as fair as fair can be.

[ASH1962]

3 hours ago, Maxman said:

Well it is easier to find a starter on a bad team than it is to draft starters on a Super Bowl level team.

But I agree with the premise, the draft is way more of a crap shoot than people admit.

I would tend to agree with this, buuuuuuttt...why pick 2 players with 5 combined surgeries? That is my only issue with this draft.

[JetFaninMI]

2 hours ago, genot said:

So you wouldn't have traded for Osemele. Would you have drafted an O-lineman with the 3rd pick??? I'm trying to find out who are these stud, young offensive lineman that Mac has been ignoring. please tell me.

No you are the one saying he is not ignoring the OL. Its not up to me to prove your point for you.

I didn't say I wouldn't trade for O. That's you putting words in my mouth to deflect your obvious inability to prove your point.

I would have taken an OL at 3. I would probably would have taken Jonah Williams there if it was up to me. Drafting Q was redundant right? Because they already have the Pro-Bowler Leo that your boy Macc drafted right? Since you think Macc is such a great talent evaluator by your defense of him I can't honestly believe that you think Q is a better bet at this point than the Pro-Bowl DL Macc already drafted??? Really? NEXT

[JetFaninMI]

1 hour ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Wait, what? How many has he drafted in the first and second since he drafted Darnold? That would be last year and this. The only relevant spot would be this year's first round pick at #3, since both years we have had no second round pick and last year Darnold was drafted with the #3 they moved up to. So this is idiotic. How many he drafted since he got the job? B y my count, three. Harrison, Shell, and Edoga. All later picks. That is a fair point for sure. Overall, OL has been neglected as a priority position. Even this year, Mac seems to have the idea that grabbing UDFA's is the way to find a diamond in the rough. For that he deserves all the criticism he gets.

No that would be overall in his time as a GM. You know what I ment you're just being cute. If you weren't that's what I ment okay?

 

[TuscanyTile2]

2 hours ago, Jets723 said:

I think the pessimistic mindset is the bigger issues.  Im not saying you have to give every move a A, that would be silly and inaccurate BUT I do think there should be more positivity regarding this team because of the QB and the moves we made this offseason

I've said since the moment we drafted Darnold that I've never been more optimistic on this franchise.  As far as our offseason moves, I liked the Mosley signing.  Bell is questionable (to met at least) though because he's been out of action for a full year and we don't have a great OL (which I think is far more important than the RB).  As far as the draft, I love the Quinnen Williams pick. 

In other words, I'm not just blindly pessimistic on this franchise.  There are moves I've been very happy about.  I'm just not that willing to give Macc the benefit of the doubt on every last move.  I thought he should've been fired along with Bowles this offseason.  (though I still hate the whole "HC and GM are individually hired by and report to the owner" setup).

[JetFaninMI]

2 hours ago, Jets723 said:

I agreed with you about that.  I think Macc should of drafted more olinemen in previous drafts

Yes but you still have not answered the original question. Nice way not to do that btw.

[Jets723]

7 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I've said since the moment we drafted Darnold that I've never been more optimistic on this franchise.  As far as our offseason moves, I liked the Mosley signing.  Bell is questionable (to met at least) though because he's been out of action for a full year and we don't have a great OL (which I think is far more important than the RB).  As far as the draft, I love the Quinnen Williams pick. 

In other words, I'm not just blindly pessimistic on this franchise.  There are moves I've been very happy about.  I'm just not that willing to give Macc the benefit of the doubt on every last move.  I thought he should've been fired along with Bowles this offseason.  (though I still hate the whole "HC and GM are individually hired by and report to the owner" setup).

Yeah I wasnt a huge fan of Bell mostly because of his personality but there is no question he is a major upgrade and the deal was pretty good.  Mosley was a good signing although we overpaid.  Barr was not our fault but I wonder if it cost us other free agents like Morse who would of been a good get at C. I wanted Paradis but its clear he didnt want to be here. Obviously if the Jets dont take a big step forward this year Macc is gone.