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If Jets Were Healthy All Season

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Seeing how Williams can make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t, I can only imagine a defense with Mosely and Williamson playing side by side. I never wish injury on someone, but since we're playing what ifs, I would also like to see Trumaine Johnson still out for the season in this pretend scenario. Two to three more wins with a healthy roster. We should have two to three more wins with this awful roster as it is, but Gase is an awful head coach. 

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2 hours ago, Pac said:

10-6 or 11-5.

At about 75% healthy they were dominating the Bills then the wheels came off and it's only gotten worse.

Saying "every team has injuries" grossly understates what's happened to this roster this year.  I haven't seen anything like this in over 30 years of watching the team. 

Strange because Seattle, SF, NE, KC, and HOU are the playoff teams that have about the same amount of injuries as the Jets. 

..then LAC, Miami, Washington, and Denver are teams who have a similar amount of injuries that aren't in the playoffs..

So something you've never seen before happens to about 1/3 of the league...so perhaps your perception is off

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21 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

so perhaps your perception is off

nope.  not the same level at all.

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What if Mahomes hadn’t got hurt? What if Alex Smith didn’t break his leg last year? What if Payton Manning didn’t need neck surgery?

Depth determines champions. Jets seem to be the only squad this year that is totally non competitive with a backup QB. Which is funny since some say situation matters more than QB but then excuses embarrassing losses by Sam being out. Pick a side folks.

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Someone asked what Chris Johnson should do on 12/30/19?  

My answer is that he should ask what the plan is to have fewer injuries and better conditioned players in 2020. 

He should also ask for a real OC that could continue when he fires Gase around Thanksgiving 2020.  

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5 hours ago, Pac said:

nope.  not the same level at all.

I get that emotionally you want this to be true, but the facts are against you. I'm sorry. 

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14 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You can’t know. Maybe they’d have lost a game or more that they ended up winning. Different players, different gameplan, different motivation, different gameplan/effort from the opponents not looking forward to a cakewalk game against the (then) 1 or 2 win Jets; impossible to say.

It’s convenient, but it doesn’t work that way where you start with the known end results you like, and start tacking on wins from there. Case in point: no injuries also means a whole season of Osemele and Kalil and Winters. Maybe Enunwa drops a pair of would-be game winning touchdowns. Maybe lots of things. 

Maybe they’d have been 7-7 or better at this point. Maybe they’d have the exact same record. Maybe worse. The team - particularly its line - wasn’t good to begin with.

 

So we lead the league in players used and have an insane number of starters on injured reserve, but you’re saying that maybe that helped us have a better record?  

That’s really what you’re going with? 😂😂😂

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22 hours ago, Butterfield said:

Do the teams they play against also get to be injury free?  Every team has injuries.  

Yes. Every team does have injuries. Thank you for the profound wisdom....

 

Now, how many teams lost their QB for multiple games, had to start their 3rd string QB, lost their top, what, 3 ILBs for the year....then had their OTs miss games, and had an OG essentially quit. 

Oh, and lost their primary Starting CBs, their #2 WR, and their top TE for the season? 

 

Now, take all of that data, find matches, and tell me the average record for those teams?

 

I'd say the Jets were actually outperforming the mean. 

 

But yeah, every team has injuries. 

 

Oh, and before you throw the Steelers at me, they lost Ben early, and intermittently JuJu. But the D is intact, as is the O line. 

 

So yeah, no. 

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23 hours ago, JetsLife said:

What would their record be?

Does Darnold at 100% help get the Jets over the hump week 1? Do they win in Miami, Jacksonville and Cincy? If so would 8-6 right now work for you? Keeping in mind the Jets have had one of the easier schedules in the league.

I'm thinking 7-7ish, perhaps 8-6. 

We'll never know. However, I can't help but think the outcome of the Ravens game would've been very different if they had WILLIAMSON, WILLIAMS, ADAMS, and MOSLEY. I don't care what anyone says, having to play games without those 4 makes defending much, much harder.

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14 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

So we lead the league in players used and have an insane number of starters on injured reserve, but you’re saying that maybe that helped us have a better record?  

That’s really what you’re going with? 😂😂😂

Yes that’s what I’m going with. That worse players are better than better players. Brilliant powers of deduction.

The point is the more talented team doesn’t always win, upsets happen, and sometimes coaches only come up with better plans and adjustments due to necessity. Opposing coaches and players prepare differently; different injuries happen; different good/bad calls by the refs happen; kicks don’t go through the uprights when the yardage and positioning isn’t identical. 

You can’t just tack on wins we got as sure thing wins in different situations. Just like it’s commonplace to see team A beat up team B, and team B beat up team C, yet team C often still beats team A even though it shouldn’t be. 

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Full health, our defense would be better. Our offense would be about the same though. Our OL got better because of injuries.

The only game I would change is week 1 versus the Bills. Aside from that, I think it would be much of the same. 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yes that’s what I’m going with. That worse players are better than better players. Brilliant powers of deduction.

The point is the more talented team doesn’t always win, upsets happen, and sometimes coaches only come up with better plans and adjustments due to necessity. Opposing coaches and players prepare differently; different injuries happen; different good/bad calls by the refs happen; kicks don’t go through the uprights when the yardage and positioning isn’t identical. 

You can’t just tack on wins we got as sure thing wins in different situations. Just like it’s commonplace to see team A beat up team B, and team B beat up team C, yet team C often still beats team A even though it shouldn’t be. 

Im not tacking on wins

Those have to be earned

My point is that a healthy team is almost always better than an injured team.  And that better teams usually have better records.  
 

You can argue that Bless Austin is an upgrade over Johnson, but he wasnt even ready to play when Johnson got injured .  But I really think your argument falls apart when it comes to players like Darnold and Mosely.

 Coaches coach who they have to coach   This regime has shown they play the best guys regardless of draft position or fa contract 

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This would have been a 7-9 team with a more “normal” rate of injuries. Couple good breaks, maybe we go 8-8.

 

Good Health wouldn’t have improved the OL at all. And no team with a bad OL can be a true playoff contender.

 

We also still would have lacked strong CB play and a consistent pass rush.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

Im not tacking on wins

Those have to be earned

My point is that a healthy team is almost always better than an injured team.  And that better teams usually have better records.  
 

You can argue that Bless Austin is an upgrade over Johnson, but he wasnt even ready to play when Johnson got injured .  But I really think your argument falls apart when it comes to players like Darnold and Mosely.

 Coaches coach who they have to coach   This regime has shown they play the best guys regardless of draft position or fa contract 

The very point is you don’t know which wins may have been losses. I’m not making arguments that the backups are better than the starters, just that situations that led to wins may not have been there. You can’t predict which wins wouldn’t have panned out because it doesn’t work like that. Things that would have killed a win didn’t happen.

How do you know we wouldn’t have lost a game because Herndon dropped a crucial catch that Griffin made; or a would-be completion to DT may have been a pick-6 after it first bounced off Enunwa’s hands or chest or tipped up off his fingers. Could be instead of missing multiple games, a starter instead practices with the 1s all week and then leaves in the 1st quarter, leaving an even worse situation. 

Or try this on: if a handful of injured players were healthy, it could have created the different situation that instead gets Darnold seriously injured and put onto IR. I mean, if Martin was injured and off the field, Testaverde never would have injured his Achilles. And if Martin was off the field, and it didn’t happen, everyone would have understandably scoffed at something so preposterous happening.  

I’m certainly not suggesting any (let alone all) of those things specifically were likely to have happened. Rather, but that undesirable outcomes do happen even when the better players are in. Also it goes without saying that opponents prepare and practice for the injury-plagued Jets differently than they prepare for a totally healthy Jets team.

So the point still stands: you can’t assume every win would still have been a win, and then start adding onto it which losses would have also been wins. Especially since this roster wasn’t good to begin with. The record may still have been very similar.

Lastly, no Gase most certainly does not only play the better players. This myth surely comes from the 2-game Trumaine Johnson benching, but on the whole if that was the case, 3/5 of the starting OL would have been benched early on instead of slavishly starting the vastly higher paid yet underperforming Kalil, Osemele, and Winters until they were injured. It’s also been pretty clear that with such an OL that doesn’t open a hole before a defender’s in the backfield, that Bell should have surrendered more carries to the 31 year-old Powell who just hits the limited hole or few yards that’s there faster instead of “patiently” waiting for a better one to present itself despite how infrequently it happens. And Johnson’s eventual injury is irrelevant; after a couple game benching (hey, good on Gase/Williams there) he was back not only starting but playing every defensive snap while he was healthy, and trying to set a Guinness record for how much cushion a CB can provide while pretending to cover a receiver. If he wasn’t on IR the only thing that would have benched him was fear of a more lasting/serious injury than an ankle sprain kicking in his injury guarantee for the 2020 season. I’m sure I’m forgetting someone else, too. 

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The very point is you don’t know which wins may have been losses. I’m not making arguments that the backups are better than the starters, just that situations that led to wins may not have been there. You can’t predict which wins wouldn’t have panned out because it doesn’t work like that. Things that would have killed a win didn’t happen.

How do you know we wouldn’t have lost a game because Herndon dropped a crucial catch that Griffin made; or a would-be completion to DT may have been a pick-6 after it first bounced off Enunwa’s hands or chest or tipped up off his fingers. Could be instead of missing multiple games, a starter instead practices with the 1s all week and then leaves in the 1st quarter, leaving an even worse situation. 

Or try this on: if a handful of injured players were healthy, it could have created the different situation that instead gets Darnold seriously injured and put onto IR. I mean, if Martin was injured and off the field, Testaverde never would have injured his Achilles. And if Martin was off the field, and it didn’t happen, everyone would have understandably scoffed at something so preposterous happening.  

I’m certainly not suggesting any (let alone all) of those things specifically were likely to have happened. Rather, but that undesirable outcomes do happen even when the better players are in. Also it goes without saying that opponents prepare and practice for the injury-plagued Jets differently than they prepare for a totally healthy Jets team.

So the point still stands: you can’t assume every win would still have been a win, and then start adding onto it which losses would have also been wins. Especially since this roster wasn’t good to begin with. The record may still have been very similar.

Lastly, no Gase most certainly does not only play the better players. This myth surely comes from the 2-game Trumaine Johnson benching, but on the whole if that was the case, 3/5 of the starting OL would have been benched early on instead of slavishly starting the vastly higher paid yet underperforming Kalil, Osemele, and Winters until they were injured. It’s also been pretty clear that with such an OL that doesn’t open a hole before a defender’s in the backfield, that Bell should have surrendered more carries to the 31 year-old Powell who just hits the limited hole or few yards that’s there faster instead of “patiently” waiting for a better one to present itself despite how infrequently it happens. And Johnson’s eventual injury is irrelevant; after a couple game benching (hey, good on Gase/Williams there) he was back not only starting but playing every defensive snap while he was healthy, and trying to set a Guinness record for how much cushion a CB can provide while pretending to cover a receiver. If he wasn’t on IR the only thing that would have benched him was fear of a more lasting/serious injury than an ankle sprain kicking in his injury guarantee for the 2020 season. I’m sure I’m forgetting someone else, too. 

You want to sell the butterfly effect, have at it.

Please explain how losing Darnold and his back up for 3 games was helpful.  How is losing an All pro linebacker in Mosely a positive?  It didnt seem helpful when he went out in the Buffalo game!

And as far as playing the best players, didnt they do that with Shepard and Fatukasi and the FA DE playing over Len and Quinnen Williams? Didnt they trade Williams because the other guys were playing well? or  how about fa Griffin playing over Wesco the draft pick? How many examples do you need?

you clearly have an agenda and your bias is effecting how you view things

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On 12/14/2019 at 3:10 PM, JetsLife said:

What would their record be?

Does Darnold at 100% help get the Jets over the hump week 1? Do they win in Miami, Jacksonville and Cincy? If so would 8-6 right now work for you? Keeping in mind the Jets have had one of the easier schedules in the league.

I'm thinking 7-7ish, perhaps 8-6. 

What team is healthy all season?  None.  This is why depth is so important.  The Jets don't have depth so as soon as one of their overrated players goes down, they don't have the quality of depth to cover the position.  This is the NFL.  Next player up is not a slogan, it is reality.  We can bitch all we want that the Jets had too many injuries this season, my argument is so what?  Every team has their share of injuries and still find a way to win.  I'm just tired of hearing that the Jets are riddled with injuries.  Is that going to be the excuse every year we can't make the playoffs?  Will that be the excuse as to why we keep Adam Gase who is a proven loser?  No, I don't and won't buy into the injury argument.  It is just an excuse for an inept organization that can't put a competitive product on the field.

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2 hours ago, afjetsfan said:

What team is healthy all season?  None.  This is why depth is so important.  The Jets don't have depth so as soon as one of their overrated players goes down, they don't have the quality of depth to cover the position.  This is the NFL.  Next player up is not a slogan, it is reality.  We can bitch all we want that the Jets had too many injuries this season, my argument is so what?  Every team has their share of injuries and still find a way to win.  I'm just tired of hearing that the Jets are riddled with injuries.  Is that going to be the excuse every year we can't make the playoffs?  Will that be the excuse as to why we keep Adam Gase who is a proven loser?  No, I don't and won't buy into the injury argument.  It is just an excuse for an inept organization that can't put a competitive product on the field.

No one is saying the Jets win the Super Bowl or make the playoffs if they were healthy.

They are a bad team, thin at many positions, with many injuries which taxed an already thin roster.

you have a new coach and gm.  Maybe give them a chance to improve the team before you cut their heads off?

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On 12/14/2019 at 3:40 PM, slimjasi said:

I’d say 7-7. 
 

I had them going 8-8 at the start of the year

i think without the crazy rash of injuries, they would be a .500 level team 

but injuries happen, and the lack of quality depth was always a major concern 

Perhaps but we are poorly coached and weak in talent even if healthy.

We need upper management to do it's job and hopefully Douglas is the answer but a team of execs that play Fitz, McCown, draft HACK etc...  well, we are paying the price now.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

You want to sell the butterfly effect, have at it.

Please explain how losing Darnold and his back up for 3 games was helpful.  How is losing an All pro linebacker in Mosely a positive?  It didnt seem helpful when he went out in the Buffalo game!

And as far as playing the best players, didnt they do that with Shepard and Fatukasi and the FA DE playing over Len and Quinnen Williams? Didnt they trade Williams because the other guys were playing well? or  how about fa Griffin playing over Wesco the draft pick? How many examples do you need?

you clearly have an agenda and your bias is effecting how you view things


Yes there is a butterfly effect, particularly in football. Just like if Gase didn’t myopically dump Lee for next to nothing in May it very likely means either of, if not both of, Williamson and Mosley don’t get injured, since they wouldn’t have been in the identical situations in which they got badly injured. But for all we know it may have meant someone else - perhaps Darnold, perhaps others - getting injured instead. And any fool knows that while the better team usually wins, they don’t always. 

Leo still was very much starting to the end, and trading Leo is not an example of benching. That’s as much - actually less - of an example than Bowles benching Coples or eventually benching Mo, since Leo was not benched (nor is Gase likely deciding who plays and who doesn’t on D). I’m saying there are more examples of starting/playing underperforming veterans over less experienced and lesser paid players. 

You point to Wesco - a 4th round rookie the fired GM just drafted, who was projected by some as a career backup or special teams prospect despite the optimism here, whom perhaps Gase never wanted - I point to Edoga who didn’t deserve to be on the field over anyone, let alone starting game after game until he got hurt. Actually screw that, I point right to Griffin, since he was just a veteran starter - which Gase surely pushed to get in post-Macc - brought in before training camp started, and automatically played over a rookie every game despite just 1 week’s receiving production over weeks 1-7 combined. I take for granted Gase is not the first coach to presume a veteran is more reliable than a mid-round rookie, and this would tip the scales in combination with this sorry ass OL. In doing so despite several consecutive weeks of non production, Griffin starting makes my argument not yours. 
 

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7 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

 

you clearly have an agenda and your bias is effecting how you view things

As to the rest:

Everyone here has had enough with your “agenda” agenda. I don’t think you truly know what the word means. Either that or you have never owned a mirror, since you reflexively post like it means anyone who doesn’t think what you do has an agenda. That pretty much makes you the one with the agenda, brother.

It also makes you a decidedly poor debater, routinely attacking personally instead of just leaving it at addressing merits of what was said, as though you are unable to comprehend someone disagreeing with you in good faith. Everyone else here sees and has seen it since forever, watching you immaturely attack and then cry foul and play victim during the backlash.

It’s pathetic, and someone already banned dozens of times and near or at the top of a decidedly tolerant @Maxman’s Sh*t List would know better if that person had a tenth the intelligence he thinks he has. 

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How much better could they have been?   The O line wasn’t good “when healthy”, Enunwa is the only WR who went down for significant time, sure they may have been a little more competitive in the games Darnold missed.   But to think this was somehow a 10 or 11 win team is comical.  

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Ahh the yearly what if game hmmmmmm 

What if i invested in Apple and Microsoft 

What if farve never threw across his body against New Orleans would peyton have another ring

What if the tuck rule never existed 

What if it was called a foward pass in the music city miracle 

What if New Orleans got that p.i called against the rams does drew put it in the endzone 

What if Sanchez saw that butt before he took off 

Idk man you got me 

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38 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

How much better could they have been?   The O line wasn’t good “when healthy”, Enunwa is the only WR who went down for significant time, sure they may have been a little more competitive in the games Darnold missed.   But to think this was somehow a 10 or 11 win team is comical.  

@Pac and many others love playing the hypothetical game like its factual.  It's fun to see them twist reality into a fantasy world.  In that same fantasy world, Mark Sanchez and Geno Smith were actually good QBs too.  

In no Universe were the 2019 Jets winning 10+ games.  Even a 9-win season would have been far fetched.  

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46 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

How much better could they have been?   The O line wasn’t good “when healthy”, Enunwa is the only WR who went down for significant time, sure they may have been a little more competitive in the games Darnold missed.   But to think this was somehow a 10 or 11 win team is comical.  

I actually think the line was worse when they were "healthy."  I think they would have been a million times more competitive in the Luke Falk games with Darnold, but that doesn't amount to anything in the win column.  I think most of us thought this was a around a .500 team.  Probably a 6-10, 7-9 team.  Maybe 9-7 if things broke right, some of the rosy guys had it at 10-6, but it would have been a 2006 style 10-6. Not the kind that scared any playoff teams. 

If you throw out the 3 Falk games that leaves 13.  .500 would be 6.5 wins.  If they win one of the remaining games that puts us right there.  The real question is which way the arrow is heading.  Since they fired the GM, we know the coach did not like the personnel.  It stands to reason things will be better with personnel, but this team rarely does anything with reason. 

 

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On 12/14/2019 at 1:40 PM, slimjasi said:

I’d say 7-7. 
 

I had them going 8-8 at the start of the year

i think without the crazy rash of injuries, they would be a .500 level team 

but injuries happen, and the lack of quality depth was always a major concern 

This.  With guys like Enunwa, Mosley, etc. playing all season I think they probably find a way to pull out two more games, maybe Jax and Miami the first time.  The Jets looked like a .500 team heading into the season.....and should have beat Buffalo in Week 1 anyway.  There is no more clear example of what the Jets looked like with and without key players than the 16-0 lead they had on Buffalo with Mosley in the 3rd Q and then losing the game without him.

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I honesty don’t think it would have made much of a difference. Every loss this year has been a blow out which has been a hallmark of Adam Gase coached teams. 
 

Keep in mind the Jets have played the easiest schedule in the NFL with the least amount of travel. Any injury excuse should be counterbalanced by this fact. 

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12 minutes ago, SummerofSam14 said:

Keep in mind the Jets have played the easiest schedule in the NFL with the least amount of travel. Any injury excuse should be counterbalanced by this fact. 

Yep.  And going 8-8 against an awful schedule would have been counter-productive to any true rebuilding efforts.  In the Johnson's mind we'd need to be buyers rather than sellers.  Similar to that 2013 farce of an 8-8 team where the Jets were outscored by 97 points on the season and really should have been 5-11 or 4-12.  But because we went 8-8 we didn't operate that offseason like a rebuilding team like we should have.  

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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  And going 8-8 against an awful schedule would have been counter-productive to any true rebuilding efforts.  In the Johnson's mind we'd need to be buyers rather than sellers.  Similar to that 2013 farce of an 8-8 team where the Jets were outscored by 97 points on the season and really should have been 5-11 or 4-12.  But because we went 8-8 we didn't operate that offseason like a rebuilding team like we should have.  

We actually did if you recall. Idzik signed Eric Decker, but didn’t do much else. 

The issue was the horrific draft and handing Geno Smith the starting job without competition. 

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2 minutes ago, SummerofSam14 said:

We actually did if you recall. Idzik signed Eric Decker, but didn’t do much else. 

The issue was the horrific draft and handing Geno Smith the starting job without competition. 

Exactly.  If we'd gone 4-12 or 5-11 like we should have in 2013 perhaps we'd not only have scouted QB's more, we'd have been in better position to actually take one given our higher pick slot.  

By going 8-8 that season everyone in the organization was operating like Geno could be "the guy" at QB.  

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