Leonard Williams is flirting with busthood

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, JetsFanatic said:

In fairness, any GM would have signed Mo over Snacks.  Snacks is a pure run stopper who does not get sacks. Mo was coming off a big season and never gave any indication that he would dog it once he got paid.  I liked Snacks bit the Giants paid him top dollar

I don't get this binary thinking where we were forced to only sign one. Only a bad GM would paint himself into that corner himself.

We had him playing on a RFA tag in 2015 instead of extending him for what would never have exceeded $6m/year (if it even reached that high in an offseason when a multi-year pro bowl/all-pro guard like Iupati had to reach UFA status for an $8m/year deal). Even when Snacks signed the Giants in 2016, after another full year of contract inflation, when he was able to shop himself around to the highest bidder, $9m per was still a shocking figure for "just a 2-down run stopper." 

With the team so flush with cap space to start the 2015 offseason, there was no reason, other than a GM's irrational fear of extending a player already under control/contract for the upcoming season, to fail to lock him up. It was even more inexcusable after no one bit on his 2nd round RFA tag, which (along with an upcoming draft) could/should have further been used in extension talks to lock him up before he had to play another season without a big payout. Then more opportunities were still there in camp where the new D-minded coaching staff could see him up close. Still nothing. Then after the season was underway and they could see how important he was to freeing up their other big DLmen. Still nothing.

But hey, he gave shiny new $7-8m/year contracts to temporarily rent 31 year-old has-been UFAs like Cromartie and Harris instead, entering a season with Geno Smith then penciled in as the starter. It was a ***ing brilliant plan.

[JetsFanatic]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't get this binary thinking where we were forced to only sign one. Only a bad GM would paint himself into that corner himself.

We had him playing on a RFA tag in 2015 instead of extending him for what would never have exceeded $6m/year (if it even reached that high in an offseason when a multi-year pro bowl/all-pro guard like Iupati had to reach UFA status for an $8m/year deal). Even when Snacks signed the Giants in 2016, after another full year of contract inflation, when he was able to shop himself around to the highest bidder, $9m per was still a shocking figure for "just a 2-down run stopper." 

With the team so flush with cap space to start the 2015 offseason, there was no reason, other than a GM's irrational fear of extending a player already under control/contract for the upcoming season, to fail to lock him up. It was even more inexcusable after no one bit on his 2nd round RFA tag, which (along with an upcoming draft) could/should have further been used in extension talks to lock him up before he had to play another season without a big payout. Then more opportunities were still there in camp where the new D-minded coaching staff could see him up close. Still nothing. Then after the season was underway and they could see how important he was to freeing up their other big DLmen. Still nothing.

But hey, he gave shiny new $7-8m/year contracts to temporarily rent 31 year-old has-been UFAs like Cromartie and Harris instead, entering a season with Geno Smith then penciled in as the starter. It was a ***ing brilliant plan.

I agree with your premise about signing both, my recollection was that MAc tried to keep him but the Giants gave him a huge above market contract because they were so far under the cap.  I also agree that Mac should be pro-active and sign players to extensions prior to the expiration of their contract. Right I would hope he can extend Enunwa before he hits FA.  

[Sperm Edwards]

18 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

All pro bowlers do not play at a pro bowl level every game.I think Lee is having a solid year. That still does not discount the fact he's playing in a defensive scheme he is simply not built for.

Lee is an innately talented player with obvious physical gifts. Even (most) people who don't think particularly highly of him will surely grant that. That said, I think he had one disproportionately productive game, when the D knew what plays the other team was running, and since then he doesn't look dramatically different than last season. 

When he's sent forward with a specific path, he gets there in a hurry because he's truly a fast defender (well, he gets there when he's not taken out of the play before getting there). But when he's dropping back reading the QB's eyes or doing a read-and-react spy job, he reads-and-reacts too slowly. Speed makes up for some of that, but not all of it. Absent knowing the plays ahead of time he doesn't seem to diagnose what's going on quickly enough. Granted that is something that continues to improve with time for all players (it's the body not the mind that eventually can't keep up), but right now I don't see a player obviously worth extending, and maybe not worth a 5th year team option.

There are ~30 more games before we have to make a final decision on that front, which is more than ample time to see if there are any more games where he's even half what we saw in Detroit. What I see coming up - if there are no FO changes - is Macc exercising the 5th year option for 2020; then in late Feb or the first week of March in 2021, just before he hits the street as a UFA, he's given a $12m/year extension. He will be released after the first 2 guaranteed years are over. This is the MacPattern. 

[Creepy Lurker]

I don’t know what to do with this team besides clean house. A lot of the underperforming may be due to terrible coaching so I’m not sure we really know what we have.

We fire should Everyone early to get a jump on things but we need to show stability and wait until the offseason.

Do we trade someone like Williams because we may get good value and he surely won’t be worth the contract he is expecting? Does Williams thrive under a new defensive coordinator? It’s tough to tell but I honestly think we need a TON of draft picks and a competent drafter to start getting good pieces in here and to allocate resources properly. 

Unfortunately the real rebuild has not yet begun.

Step 1: Find new GM and coach. 

Step 2: Put EVERY resource possible into the offense so Sam has a chance and can develop which will take time in itself.

Step 3: Build the rest of the team like remaining holes on both offense and defense. 

Step 5: Wait 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

33 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Darron Lee was excellent last night like objectively he’s been really good... and Jenkins has 2 sacks and 2 FF in 3 games plus numerous pressures... 

Lee was standing around or taken out of multiple positive Cleveland plays last night. Williamson - the guy charged with freeing up Lee - had a great game.

Jenkins sacking a rookie QB in his first NFL action, where said rookie QB doesn't secure the football, after he's barely touched on a blitz, doesn't therefore make said defender a pro bowler. Obviously he did his job on the play, but the truth is Luvu made that play happen by shedding an engaged blocker with a sweet spin move, getting in Mayfield's face/line of sight, allowing the unblocked Jenkins to get in there unseen. In his other ~150 snaps this year he's been in on 4 combined solo + assisted tackles.

[sec101row23]

44 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Williams is doing what Williams is expected. He wasn’t going to be a pass rusher, why he fell to us despite his high grades. Mac wouldn’t pass up on BPA. He would pick a punter in 2nd round if his little BPA chart   said to. Too early to judge Johnson. I know we were spoiled for years  with the best cover corner in the history of nfl, but it is not uncommon for any other top corner to miss plays, have bad games. The corner market prices have got out of hand just like the Oline market. Of course macey will pay for the overpriced D player, never the premium for a Olineman to help our qb

Exactly right on why Williams dropped to 6 that year.  He’s not an edge guy like Fowler is, that’s why the Jags took Fowler.  Mac took the easy way out, selecting the “no brainer” player at the time.  If he had balls he would taken Beasley, who combined with Sheldon would have been a MUCH better combo of players.  

[ChuckkieB]

1 hour ago, Jetster said:

In an offensive league the Jets have the least explosive group in the entire league! Landry, Callaway & Higgins are all better or equal to Enunwa. 

NJoku is a better TE than the Jets have. The Johnsons have AGAIN allowed a defensive head coach to come in here & hijack the offensive side of the ball for his own ego on a defense that can't make a stop when they most need it. 

 

Bingo! No legit playmakers on offense and a defense that has gotten pushed around during crunch time for 3+ years.  A passing league requires an offense minded HC and athletic playmakers at RB, WR, TE, and a quick, strong O line to keep the QB upright.  

Instead, going into year 4, we have only a promising rookie QB who has to be rolled out on almost every pass play so he doesn't get killed and a team of WR's and TE's not named Enumwa that can't consistently get open, make plays, or hold on to the ball.

The GM and coach have failed this team and it's time for a change in 2019.  

[Maxman]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

Bowles only knows one scheme and will jam round pegs into square holes all day rather than get creative

What's the one scheme that he knows?

[Untouchable]

Not a bust, he’s a good player.

But unless he really starts to pick it up (and soon), I don’t know how you could justify giving him $15+ million a year longterm.

[section314]

3 minutes ago, Maxman said:

What's the one scheme that he knows?

How to diagram losses.

[jgb]

3 hours ago, Maxman said:

What's the one scheme that he knows?

Inefficient 

[More Cowbell]

9 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I agree on both accounts .

Johnson is terrible and now we all understand why the Rams let what everyone assumed was a pro bowl type player go to free agency. Dumb penalty bad coverage all over the field.

Williams seems invisible and certainly was invisible when Hyde ran in the go ahead TD we really needed a stop there and where was Williams ? on his face. This is why you DO NOT DRAFT high profile Defensive lineman to play in a god damn 3/4 defense you draft LB first and D line in the later rounds because in a damn 3/4 the D line are mostly occupiers if they create some pressure great but they usually don't.

True but you can't  draft 3/4 DE's that don't  weigh in at about 290. 3/4 requires big guys and William's fits the mold. That said, he needs to show up on plays like the Hyde TD. 

[jetscrazey]

Williams was a total ghost last night and is consistently a non-factor in the pass rush.  Should've drafted o-line instead and played Sheldon at his natural position.

[Barton]

Talk to me when he actually has an edge rusher at OLB playing next to him and isnt getting double teamed on every play.

[BrickTamland]

9 hours ago, maury77 said:

I said this in the thread about the 2019 cap. Williams is a nice, above average player. He is not a game changer. He is not Mo or Sheldon at their respective peaks. I don't want the team to spend 14 million on Leo next year. Either extend him at 6-8 million per year (which is what his production merits) or cut him loose. I'd rather roll with Anderson and Sheppard on their cheap deals and spend the 14 million on the offensive line or an edge rusher. 

Yeeep. I made a thread on this about 3 weeks ago. 14M is 3 decent starters

[RobR]

45 minutes ago, Barton said:

Talk to me when he actually has an edge rusher at OLB playing next to him and isnt getting double teamed on every play.

This is a talking point that gets way overblown. He's not taking on double teams every play as much as people want to say it, and when he does, like most Dlineman do at times he's on roller skates. Just watch him every play and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's a crutch Jets fans use to inflate his worth, but it's not true.

He has a terrible first step off of the line and has absolutely no pass rushing moves, hence why he doesn't get sacks. Henry Anderson has been more disruptive than Leo.  

[RobR]

8 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Not a bust, he’s a good player.

But unless he really starts to pick it up (and soon), I don’t know how you could justify giving him $15+ million a year longterm.

No one is giving him 15+ mil a year. You can draft players with his skillset in rounds 2-4.  

[HessStation]

10 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

All pro bowlers do not play at a pro bowl level every game.I think Lee is having a solid year. That still does not discount the fact he's playing in a defensive scheme he is simply not built for.

I’ll keep saying it, Lee in a 43 at WLB would be legit

[BroadwayRay]

10 hours ago, Ghost said:

Not gonna lie. I was on the Wilkerson wagon too. Dude played me. 

He was an elite 3-4 DE before he broke his leg in 2015. He didn’t “play” anyone—the contract he got made sense at the time. 

[Saul Goodman]

He is athletically gifted but he was soft when we drafted him, and he hasn’t developed himself into the physical specimen that is needed to become an elite defensive linemen. He needs to become more dedicated to weight training and diet, and build a chiseled frame. 

[#27TheDominator]

37 minutes ago, RobR said:

No one is giving him 15+ mil a year. You can draft players with his skillset in rounds 2-4.  

As it stands right  now, we are giving him $14+ mil next year.

[Creepy Lurker]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

As it stands right  now, we are giving him $14+ mil next year.

That’s even too much for him unless he changes his play. 

[HessStation]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't get this binary thinking where we were forced to only sign one. Only a bad GM would paint himself into that corner himself.

We had him playing on a RFA tag in 2015 instead of extending him for what would never have exceeded $6m/year (if it even reached that high in an offseason when a multi-year pro bowl/all-pro guard like Iupati had to reach UFA status for an $8m/year deal). Even when Snacks signed the Giants in 2016, after another full year of contract inflation, when he was able to shop himself around to the highest bidder, $9m per was still a shocking figure for "just a 2-down run stopper." 

With the team so flush with cap space to start the 2015 offseason, there was no reason, other than a GM's irrational fear of extending a player already under control/contract for the upcoming season, to fail to lock him up. It was even more inexcusable after no one bit on his 2nd round RFA tag, which (along with an upcoming draft) could/should have further been used in extension talks to lock him up before he had to play another season without a big payout. Then more opportunities were still there in camp where the new D-minded coaching staff could see him up close. Still nothing. Then after the season was underway and they could see how important he was to freeing up their other big DLmen. Still nothing.

But hey, he gave shiny new $7-8m/year contracts to temporarily rent 31 year-old has-been UFAs like Cromartie and Harris instead, entering a season with Geno Smith then penciled in as the starter. It was a ***ing brilliant plan.

You rock my world sometimes 

so good

[RutgersJetFan]

Two #6 overalls and we came away with a DL that's slightly above average at taking on blockers and a safety that can't do much besides blitz. J-E-T-S homies.

[RobR]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

As it stands right  now, we are giving him $14+ mil next year.

Hopefully we'll have a new GM in place when that decision has to be made.

[56mehl56]

17 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

Hes seeing less and less time while Henry Anderson is making plays. I dont think William's even showed up on the box score. Wtf is he doing for this team?  Also, trumain Johnson is not the player the jets are paying him to be. Discuss. 

Maybe just maybe the shrimp boat captain has no fricking clue how to get the most out of his players. 

[BroadwayRay]

Who were the Jets supposed to pick besides Williams? The draft class that year was kind of weak. Everyone loves to mention Vic Beasley, but Atlanta fans complain about him the way Jets fans complain about Williams. Besides the 15 sacks in 2016, he’s been nothing special. And he did nothing in the Super Bowl. (PFF did a long analysis last year about how his 15 sacks were kind of a fluke, and how he doesn’t generate a lot of pressures). Williams, despite his lacks of sacks, was among the better players drafted that year. 

[HessStation]

7 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Two #6 overalls and we came away with a DL that's slightly above average at taking on blockers and a safety that can't do much besides blitz. J-E-T-S homies.

Also, good GMs find good Safeties in later rounds.

[detectivekimble]

Williams has flatlined.  Lee and Adams are trending up.  Williams needs to join them.

[Barton]

2 hours ago, RobR said:

This is a talking point that gets way overblown. He's not taking on double teams every play as much as people want to say it, and when he does, like most Dlineman do at times he's on roller skates. Just watch him every play and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's a crutch Jets fans use to inflate his worth, but it's not true.

He has a terrible first step off of the line and has absolutely no pass rushing moves, hence why he doesn't get sacks. Henry Anderson has been more disruptive than Leo.  

Your criticisms of him are accurate. The reality is thos - he is far from a bust and far from elite. Good player who on the right team/culture, would take the next step. 

[BigO]

In all fairness, Leo did come to the rescue and save Daron Lee from getting his azz kicked by a woman.

[BigO]

2 hours ago, HessStation said:

Also, good GMs find good Safeties in later rounds.

And bad GM’s find average safties, average DL, average LB’s and bust wr’s in early rounds. 

[varjet]

Here are the highest paid 3-4 DEs in the NFL.

Williams is a good player, but he should be down this list, not on top of it. 

Player	Team	Total  Value	Avg./Year	Total  Guaranteed	Avg.  Guar./Year	% Guar.	Free  Agency
Aaron Donald	Rams	$135,000,000	$22,500,000	$50,000,000	$8,333,333	37.0%	2025 UFA
J.J. Watt	Texans	$100,000,000	$16,666,667	$20,876,385	$3,479,398	20.9%	2022 UFA
Jurrell Casey	Titans	$60,400,000	$15,100,000	$22,000,000	$5,500,000	36.4%	2023 UFA
Stephon Tuitt	Steelers	$60,000,000	$12,000,000	$14,000,000	$2,800,000	23.3%	2023 UFA
Akiem Hicks	Bears	$48,000,000	$12,000,000	$22,000,000	$5,500,000	45.8%	2022 UFA
Michael Brockers	Rams	$33,250,000	$11,083,333	$18,146,000	$6,048,667	54.6%	2020 UFA
Brandon Williams	Ravens	$52,500,000	$10,500,000	$24,500,000	$4,900,000	46.7%	2022 UFA
Cameron Heyward	Steelers	$52,281,000	$10,456,200	$16,000,000	$3,200,000	30.6%	2021 UFA
Mike Daniels	Packers	$41,000,000	$10,250,000	$12,000,000	$3,000,000	29.3%	2020 UFA
Derek Wolfe	Broncos	$36,700,000	$9,175,000	$12,000,000	$3,000,000	32.7%	2020 UFA
DaQuan Jones	Titans	$21,000,000	$7,000,000	$14,000,000	$4,666,667	66.7%	2021 UFA

[RobR]

7 minutes ago, Barton said:

Your criticisms of him are accurate. The reality is thos - he is far from a bust and far from elite. Good player who on the right team/culture, would take the next step. 

I just rewatched the condensed version of the game and he played mostly as a 5 tech on the left side only, so he's going against the RT. He also was moved around and played some snaps at 3 tech and 0 tech and was very ineffective...not sure why Bowles has him playing over the nose because he is bad at it.

Impressions from last night. His getoff is abysmal and it shows why he didn't register on the stat sheet. He's seems content standing up and hand fighting Lineman instead of trying to penetrate....even MClendon penetrates under a double team at the nose and he's a decade older and even lighter. His motor is shot.....is that a product of Bowles?....probably IMO. He's not a plus athlete and never was, although I think he has above average lateral movement. Last night he not only lost every double team but he lost every 1 on 1 and that is not what I expect from a #6 overall.

The big question is he just another failure under the Bowles regime or a product of Macs bad picks. I'm thinking a bit of both.

 

On a lighter side I watched Long on offense and he is a stud Center. Nothing like Mangold but more of a Mawae type of player....extremely athletic. 

[Il Mostro]

13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't get this binary thinking where we were forced to only sign one. Only a bad GM would paint himself into that corner himself.

We had him playing on a RFA tag in 2015 instead of extending him for what would never have exceeded $6m/year (if it even reached that high in an offseason when a multi-year pro bowl/all-pro guard like Iupati had to reach UFA status for an $8m/year deal). Even when Snacks signed the Giants in 2016, after another full year of contract inflation, when he was able to shop himself around to the highest bidder, $9m per was still a shocking figure for "just a 2-down run stopper." 

With the team so flush with cap space to start the 2015 offseason, there was no reason, other than a GM's irrational fear of extending a player already under control/contract for the upcoming season, to fail to lock him up. It was even more inexcusable after no one bit on his 2nd round RFA tag, which (along with an upcoming draft) could/should have further been used in extension talks to lock him up before he had to play another season without a big payout. Then more opportunities were still there in camp where the new D-minded coaching staff could see him up close. Still nothing. Then after the season was underway and they could see how important he was to freeing up their other big DLmen. Still nothing.

But hey, he gave shiny new $7-8m/year contracts to temporarily rent 31 year-old has-been UFAs like Cromartie and Harris instead, entering a season with Geno Smith then penciled in as the starter. It was a ***ing brilliant plan.

Rams -- Donald + Suh.  They get it.