Interesting/unsettling bit on Douglas’s grading system

[T0mShane]

This is from Cimini today. Apologies if it’s already been discussed:

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/82870/closer-look-at-jamal-adams-situation-could-it-get-ugly-for-jets?platform=amp

7. A touch of Bill Belichick: The Jets will be drafting with a new grading system, which Douglas learned from the Ravens and installed last summer upon his arrival. Former Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome picked up the system from the Cleveland Browns, where he worked under Belichick in the 1990s.

Simply put, it differs from the Jets' previous system in that it places a greater emphasis on scheme fit and preferred positional traits. Under the previous regime, they graded players in a vacuum, so to speak -- an objective evaluation based on overall talent.

"We use numbers and alphabet," Newsome told ESPN. "It allows you to put players in a category. In that category, you have a very good understanding of what that player can do and who he’s being compared to."

Example: If a player receives a grade of 6.9 C, it means first-year starter with a character issue. They use letter notations that cover everything from body type to speed, with a grading scale that maxes out at 8.0. In essence, the Jets are speaking a different language under Douglas.

[Untouchable]

Sounds good to me

Drafting based purely on physical talent is how you wind up taking the likes of Hackenberg and Polite in the Top 3 rounds.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

 A bit unsettling why? I'm glad Douglas is changing the way they scout players. Because the old way definitely didn't work

[derp]

Mehta outlined this in an earlier piece. To an extent it seemed like a lot of what Maccagnan did was based too much on the coaching staff early and then he overcorrected.

Sense I got from the Mehta piece was basically that Douglas is going to ask Gase what say he needs a player at a given position to do and draft accordingly, but not necessarily draft Gase’s guy.

Seems to me like a nice middle ground between drafting the guy the coaching staff wants rather than relying on your evaluations and putting talented square pegs in round holes. The appropriate middle ground, frankly.

But maybe I’m misinterpreting the part that bothered you.

Also think that the less specific grading system leaves more room to draft players who fit needs. I think Maccagnan overcomplicated things. 

[section314]

I'm glad they are using a new language. The old one was used by functional illiterates.?

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

I like it but also feel like it’s better to draft this way when you have a stable coaching situation. We could very well be hiring a new HC in a year or two. Then what?

[Augustiniak]

7 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Sounds good to me

Drafting based purely on physical talent is how you wind up taking the likes of Hackenberg and Polite in the Top 3 rounds.

This, and it also suggests that douglas has a plan for the guys they draft.  As much as I’m looking forward to the draft in general, I’m as curious to see how douglas values players.  

[slats]

Yeah, I'm not worried about this scheme fit thing or the, "what if we fire Gase?" thing. 

Fitting what Adam Gase wants to do is good for the Jets this year, being that he's the head coach. I'd like him to have every chance to demonstrate that he's the right guy for the job. And if he's not? Then I would have to assume that these players aren't only "scheme fits," but also just good players. Players the next head coach, if/when it comes to that, will also be able to put to use. 

[slats]

7 minutes ago, derp said:

Also think that the less specific grading system leaves more room to draft players who fit needs. I think Maccagnan overcomplicated things. 

I wouldn't describe what Mac did as overcomplicated. Or even complicated. I would describe his drafting style as, "by the seat of his pants." 

[thshadow]

Maybe the preferred positional traits are graded like:

A: Plays offensive line
A-: Plays wide receiver
B+: Could convert to offensive line
...
F: Plays DT

 

 

[British Jet]

In Joe Douglas we trust. 

[Adoni Beast]

13 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

I like it but also feel like it’s better to draft this way when you have a stable coaching situation. We could very well be hiring a new HC in a year or two. Then what?

Such a great point because what if the next coach doesn’t want athletic zone schemed OLmen?

Is Douglas really all in on Gase? I seriously doubt it. I think he took the job and gave Gase a 50/50 shot of succeeding but also wouldn’t take the job unless it was a 6 year deal (unheard of for a 1st time GM).

Think about that. Gase 2 year audition and plenty of time left to hire his own coach.

[derp]

16 minutes ago, slats said:

I wouldn't describe what Mac did as overcomplicated. Or even complicated. I would describe his drafting style as, "by the seat of his pants." 

I think the overcomplicated grading system led to him overthinking things and making terrible BPA decisions because he had the defensive tackles graded so high. And it came out looking simple for that reason. But I could certainly be wrong there.

Of course, I think he’s also a bad evaluator on top of that.

[T0mShane]

20 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

I like it but also feel like it’s better to draft this way when you have a stable coaching situation. We could very well be hiring a new HC in a year or two. Then what?

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

dont worry about a top 5 tackle being on the board at 11 

that's not how things work out for the Jets, historically.

but they probably are going to be looking at WR value at 11 

and we have to prepare ourselves for this 

the tackle market will be picked over 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

dont worry about a top 5 tackle being on the board at 11 

that's not how things work out for the Jets, historically.

but they probably are going to be looking at WR value at 11 

and we have to prepare ourselves for this 

the tackle market will be picked over 

Then trade back and get extra picks.  You can still take Jefferson at 15 or 16 and get extra picks. 

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

dont worry about a top 5 tackle being on the board at 11 

that's not how things work out for the Jets, historically.

but they probably are going to be looking at WR value at 11 

and we have to prepare ourselves for this 

the tackle market will be picked over 

I realize Thomas is likely gone there, but I was using it as a hypothetical. 

[IndianaJet]

So we should draft based upon the fact that Gase might not be the head coach in 2 years?

Good grief

[JetFan20]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

To answer why I fond it unsettling is this^

How does this work? Like this?

Scenario 1:

Andrew Thomas and Jeudy are available at 11. Both with similar grades, with Thomas a notch higher. Gase says he doesn’t need an elite OLT because his system merely requires an athletic guy who can get in the way, so they take Jeudy instead?

 

Scenario 2: 

Second round, Pittman is on the board. Gregg Wiliams declares that his system requires a really stout, yet disruptive DE and Marlon Davidson is perfect for his scheme, so they bypass Pittman and take Davidson because of scheme fit?

 

Then, in two years, Thomas is a perennial Pro Bowler and Pittman is a bigger JuJu Smith-Schuster, Gase and Williams are toast and our roster has the very solid Jerry Jeudy and Markon Davidson on it because we catered to two coaches whose feet are on banana peels?

If we are being honest with ourselves Gase and Williams are likely not going be with this organization next year. Scheme fit should not really matter this year. 

[Dcat]

38 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

I like it but also feel like it’s better to draft this way when you have a stable coaching situation. We could very well be hiring a new HC in a year or two. Then what?

true of most teams.  You can't let that dictate what you do.

[JetFan20]

Also I think it’s hard to put the bad drafting 100 percent on the GMs and Scouts.

It isn’t a coincidence that the Jets have largely drafted defense over the years given their penchant for hiring defensive coaches. I think Rex and Bowles has their hand in a bunch of these picks. 

Rex-Quinton Coples 

Bowles-Darron Lee 

[TheClashFan]

There's so much we just don't know about JD, but we're gonna know a lot more by the end of this week.

 

[Scott Dierking]

This is unsettling, only if the Jets are an unstable franchise (GULP!!!!), that tends to shift and change based on the direction of the wind.

Creating a "system" is highly desirable and tends to create consistency in terms of operation and ultimately utilization of players on the field. You do not mold your team to players, you mold your players to a team concept.

The downside of this, as stated earlier, is if the guy instituting that system is not long term, and all of a sudden you have players that may have been desirable in the old system, but now all of a sudden because of regime and new systems, are not as valuable.

Jets have to be long term on Douglas.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

I would think any sane GM is going to draft to give his HC every chance to succeed. That's how good organizations work. Bad ones draft with an indifference to reality and an expectation of failure. The worst ones draft to create failure.

[slats]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I realize Thomas is likely gone there, but I was using it as a hypothetical. 

Hypothetical hyperbole! 

And when did you start doubting Gase? I noticed it before this recently, but you were his biggest booster next to @SAR I. 

[docdhc]

If he picks really good players I don't think all the other stuff really matters.  Good players can be used in any system.

[Beerfish]

Bill Belichick, Bill Walsh, ....yeah draft for scheme fit by all means.

Adam Gase....I have a lump in my throat, because:  A) His schemes suck and this has been proven by his track record the last 4 years.

and b) if he gets fired two years from now we have a bunch of guys we picked for his scheme.

Great thing that the Ravens drafted Lamar Jackson because he fit the Joe flacco scheme.

Pick the best players from the premium positions that help you win and then it is the coaches job to fit his scheme to the best players.

If you have guys rated close to each other by all means pick a guy who seems to fit the scheme better.

For all of the people saying you get bad players by not picking for scheme I'll counter with you get Darron Lee because you picked for scheme.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

44 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

I like it but also feel like it’s better to draft this way when you have a stable coaching situation. We could very well be hiring a new HC in a year or two. Then what?

At the moment, we have a stable coaching situation. From what I understand, our coaching staff is the same as 2019. Also, when you draft quality players, it's less important who the coach is. A good player can play in multiple systems.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Hypothetical hyperbole! 

And when did you start doubting Gase? I noticed it before this recently, but you were his biggest booster next to @SAR I. 

I’ve long maintained that Gase was the right man for the time, as an exterminator who had to bully Chris Johnson and fumigate the building. He’s done that exceptionally well, I’d say, and he deserves our gratitude. But, the reality is, you don’t keep the exterminator around when you’re going to redecorate. It’s a different skill set and I’m leery of Gase’s ability to do that. We shall see.

[ljr]

Scheme fit value is a noticeable example in justifying JD's signing of Fant at the numbers this was done.

(whether this was a good decision or not is still TBD)

the "grouping" grades vs "individual player" grades gives a good explanation of how/why Ozzy made as many moves (both up and down) in the draft over his career.  I hope we see much of the same ... manipulating the draft ... not just being a participant within its structure

[Nixhead]

Quit overthinking this mess! The Jets have been the worst drafting team the past 10 years by far. There is nowhere to go but up. It can't get any worse and it won't.

[Matt39]

12 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

This is unsettling, only if the Jets are an unstable franchise (GULP!!!!), that tends to shift and change based on the direction of the wind.

Creating a "system" is highly desirable and tends to create consistency in terms of operation and ultimately utilization of players on the field. You do not mold your team to players, you mold your players to a team concept.

The downside of this, as stated earlier, is if the guy instituting that system is not long term, and all of a sudden you have players that may have been desirable in the old system, but now all of a sudden because of regime and new systems, are not as valuable.

Jets have to be long term on Douglas.

Gase/Douglas seem tied at the hip in a multitude of ways. Lets hope they're competent enough and can communicate with one another. Lets see how well they are at managing their boss too- the Johnson's and whoever's the big swinger on the biz side right now, which has always been part of the Jets issue.

[Gastineau Lives]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’ve long maintained that Gase was the right man for the time, as an exterminator who had to bully Chris Johnson and fumigate the building. He’s done that exceptionally well, I’d say, and he deserves our gratitude. But, the reality is, you don’t keep the exterminator around when you’re going to redecorate. It’s a different skill set and I’m leery of Gase’s ability to do that. We shall see.

Longest gf lasted 4 mos ^^^^^^^

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Longest gf lasted 4 mos ^^^^^^^

Then they pull up my IMDB and see I wasn’t really on Boardwalk Empire and my cover is blown.

[Gastineau Lives]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Then they pull up my IMDB and see I wasn’t really on Boardwalk Empire and my cover is blown.

Just tell them you're a pastry chef. For some odd reason that is way more impressive.