Defense STILL wins championships

[CanadaSteve]

Its an offensive league, no doubt.  But all the effort by the NFL to tip the scales toward high scoring, CFL level type games (protection of QB's, more PI and Holding calls, late hit rule changes, etc), but they cannot change the truth of the matter.

In the end, Defense still plays an important part of the game.  When you only score 16 points in a Super Bowl, no matter how bad one of the QB's was, it means that side of the ball is still VERY important in the success/failure of a team.

[Philc1]

Of course,  the rams would have won the game yesterday if Goff didn’t play like a b-tch

 

pressure and hit Brady.  Kinda simple

[Butterfield]

I'm not sure.  I think it is more, balanced teams win championships.  Its not like the Rams and Patriots were the best two defenses this year.  

[56mehl56]

Is that really you Todd ??

[TuscanyTile2]

Not last year it didn’t 

[Drums]

Scoring points wins championships. Always seems a running game and solid defense wins in the playoffs. You just need to do everything well and the Patriots running game saved them. Brady looked like sh*t for most of the game and made two nice throws that basically sealed the game. The rest were wide open Edelman throws that were sometimes wobbly and inaccurate. 

With that said, I don’t care if the Patriots won last night because the Rams sucked and it is what it is. That was a Belichick win, not a Brady win. A team win.  

[peebag]

where is that lovable DWC?  Dude could flame some fires!

[TuscanyTile2]

17 minutes ago, Drums said:

Scoring points wins championships. Always seems a running game and solid defense wins in the playoffs. You just need to do everything well and the Patriots running game saved them. Brady looked like sh*t for most of the game and made two nice throws that basically sealed the game. The rest were wide open Edleman throws that were sometimes wobbly and inaccurate. 

With that said, I don’t care if the Patriots won last night because the Rams sucked and it is what it is. That was a Belicheck win, not a Brady win. A team win.  

Generally speaking I feel like more of their Super Bowl wins have been more Brady wins than belichick.  Last year’s loss was probably a belichick loss too.  That’s not to denigrate him btw.  He’s still the GOAT HC.  

[The Troll]

9 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Generally speaking I feel like more of their Super Bowl wins have been more Brady wins than belichick.  Last year’s loss was probably a belichick loss too.  That’s not to denigrate him btw.  He’s still the GOAT HC.  

1 was a Brady win, 2 were Beli wins, 1 was a Donovan McNabb is a terrible choke artist win, and 2 were delivered in gift baskets from the opposing teams' OC.

[nyjunc]

They changed the rules following the 2003 season which helped create this offensive era.  Let's look at the SB champs and whether they won because of offense or defense during SBs:

2004: O/D

2005: D

2006: D

2007: D

2008: O/D

2009: O

2010: O

2011: D

2012: O

2013: D

2014: O

2015: D

2016: O

2017: O

2018: D

15 seasons

O 6

D 7

Split O/D 2

 

Pretty even

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, The Troll said:

2 were Brady wins, 2 were Beli wins, and 2 were delivered in gift baskets from the opposing teams' OC.

Every SB win was Brady first except yesterday.  2001 would have been D first if they didn't become the first D in SB history to blow a double digit lead in the 4th qtr of a super bowl

[nyjunc]

10 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Generally speaking I feel like more of their Super Bowl wins have been more Brady wins than belichick.  Last year’s loss was probably a belichick loss too.  That’s not to denigrate him btw.  He’s still the GOAT HC.  

shouldn't someone considered the goat as a HC have been able to win with more than just the greatest QB of all time?

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

Its an offensive league, no doubt.  But all the effort by the NFL to tip the scales toward high scoring, CFL level type games (protection of QB's, more PI and Holding calls, late hit rule changes, etc), but they cannot change the truth of the matter.

In the end, Defense still plays an important part of the game.  When you only score 16 points in a Super Bowl, no matter how bad one of the QB's was, it means that side of the ball is still VERY important in the success/failure of a team.

Who is the Patriots elite edge pass rusher?  4th Rounder Trey Flowers, with his 7.5 sacks?

Is 4th rounder Deatrich Wise (and his 4.5 sacks) an elite edge rusher?

If anaything, the Pats are evidence that you do not, in fact, need a #1 draft pick "elite edge rusher" to win Super Bowls.

Yes, Defense is important.  Yes, we want a good D to go with (we hope) a top 10 Offense.

But no, this Super Bowl is not in any way justification for the ongoing "we must draft more D-Linemen!  Something something edge!  Something something elite!" that infests JN like a plague.

When we have a top 10 offense, fine, then draft some D as needed.  Till then, we must support Sam Darnold if we are to have any chance whatsoever to win games.

[slats]

A Super Bowl where only one TD is scored all game would be something you might call an outlier. 

It's increasingly an offensive league and has been for the entirety of the Pats' dynasty. Yes, playing defense is important. The Pats defense this year gave up a lot of yards, but not a lot of points. They were top five in takeaway%, and scoring against% (looking at the numbers, the Jets were #2 in stopping 3rd down conversions, but sucked at most other things). But that's defense in the NFL today; getting turnovers, stopping the other team on third down and, ultimately, limiting points. Patriots did a lot of bend-but-don't-break-ing, which can be frustrating to watch, but would make the big play when they needed it. The sacks they got last night were out of character - they ranked 30th in the league with just 30 sacks all season (the Jets had 39). It's about disciplined play (not surprisingly, they were top five in penalties against) and making the big play when it counts. 

But the league as a whole? It's about offense rolling up the score first and foremost. 

[NoBowles]

You need a good defense to win a SB, you need a very good offense to get to one.

Outliers are always there.

[ASH1962]

23 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Who is the Patriots elite edge pass rusher?  4th Rounder Trey Flowers, with his 7.5 sacks?

Is 4th rounder Deatrich Wise (and his 4.5 sacks) an elite edge rusher?

If anaything, the Pats are evidence that you do not, in fact, need a #1 draft pick "elite edge rusher" to win Super Bowls.

Yes, Defense is important.  Yes, we want a good D to go with (we hope) a top 10 Offense.

But no, this Super Bowl is not in any way justification for the ongoing "we must draft more D-Linemen!  Something something edge!  Something something elite!" that infests JN like a plague.

When we have a top 10 offense, fine, then draft some D as needed.  Till then, we must support Sam Darnold if we are to have any chance whatsoever to win games.

So are we LOL, we always draft defensive line studs and haven't sniffed a SB in half a century.

[#27TheDominator]

29 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

They changed the rules following the 2003 season which helped create this offensive era.  Let's look at the SB champs and whether they won because of offense or defense during SBs:

2004: O/D

2005: D

2006: D

2007: D

2008: O/D

2009: O

2010: O

2011: D

2012: O

2013: D

2014: O

2015: D

2016: O

2017: O

2018: D

15 seasons

O 6

D 7

Split O/D 2

 

Pretty even

You love to spout this.  2011, #9 scoring O, #8 yardage, #25 points against, #27 yardage against.  2006 #2 points, #3 yards, #23 points allowed, , #21 yards allowed.  We get that you hate the Mannings, but give it a ******* rest already. 

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You love to spout this.  2011, #9 scoring O, #8 yardage, #25 points against, #27 yardage against.  2006 #2 points, #3 yards, #23 points allowed, , #21 yards allowed.  We get that you hate the Mannings, but give it a ******* rest already. 

Yep and with that they were 7-7 after and Eli 3 int game and headed nowhere.  From that point on the D dominated all the way through the super bowl.

2006 the Indy D allowed an average of 12.8 PPG, in the super bowl they only allowed 10 and scored a TD but please tell me how the O led them in postseason. 

[More Cowbell]

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Its an offensive league, no doubt.  But all the effort by the NFL to tip the scales toward high scoring, CFL level type games (protection of QB's, more PI and Holding calls, late hit rule changes, etc), but they cannot change the truth of the matter.

In the end, Defense still plays an important part of the game.  When you only score 16 points in a Super Bowl, no matter how bad one of the QB's was, it means that side of the ball is still VERY important in the success/failure of a team.

How about when both QB's suck as we saw yesterday. 

[Jetsplayer21]

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Its an offensive league, no doubt.  But all the effort by the NFL to tip the scales toward high scoring, CFL level type games (protection of QB's, more PI and Holding calls, late hit rule changes, etc), but they cannot change the truth of the matter.

In the end, Defense still plays an important part of the game.  When you only score 16 points in a Super Bowl, no matter how bad one of the QB's was, it means that side of the ball is still VERY important in the success/failure of a team.

Lol. Yet the 2 best offensive teams made it ?‍♂️?

[New York Mick]

Good coaching wins championships. 

[King P]

I definitely agree. Defense is still important, no matter how much the NFL and sports media try to make it out to be obsolete.

And no, I'm not saying ignore the offense and just load up on defense, or that every game has to be 10-6. So please let's not intentionally be obtuse (although I question some of your are just plain obtuse without even trying to be). But both sides of the ball are needed to win, no matter what anybody says.

[CTM]

The reality is that the last 4 teams standing were basically the 4 top offenses. Who gives a fart how Sunday's game played out. You cant win a championship if you arent playing and by an overwhelming margin the teams that host playoff games and skip wild card weekend tend to be the ones with the best QB/offenses.

 

[Jetster]

Stop with this defense crap! The NFL is so damn fickle they don’t know what to do any more with the refs! 

How many bad calls were called on the Jets in the regular season? Buster Skrine has more holding  or PI calls in one game than refs called during the ENTIRE playoffs! 

Belichick knows the NFL wants flag free games, his DBs held from the moment they kicked off in KC to Gilmore seen holding & grabbing on every replay you saw last night including Cooks in the end zone where u clearly see he’s got Cooks wrist with an obvious hold.

This especially helps DBs playing teams that like to go down the field further, the refs can’t rven keep up, but the Pats offense with that short sh*t is played right in front of the refs. You can’t hold Edelman on a 6 yard route it literally has 3 refs eyes watching. 

I saw a play where a guy held Gronk a bit but that’s like trying to hold onto the bumper of car compared to Gilmore grabbing & holding Cooks wrist down so he can’t bring his arm up. 

Thats why the NFL regular season SUCKS now. Underdogs get flagged continuously, chosen teams? Very rarely, and when the playoffs come they’re told to keep the flags to a minimum, that’s how you get the horrible non call in New Orleans, there is zero consistency of how calls are made. Belli knows this & he’s a master at teaching it, that’s how you can change DCs every year and not miss a beat. 

Philly ran the ball well & took chances, BB has no plan for that it was off script. McVay, by throwing on every 3rd & short played right into BBs hands, tough to find open WRs being held & grabbed everywhere. Goff was always use to throwing to wide open guys all year.

[#27TheDominator]

25 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Yep and with that they were 7-7 after and Eli 3 int game and headed nowhere.  From that point on the D dominated all the way through the super bowl.

2006 the Indy D allowed an average of 12.8 PPG, in the super bowl they only allowed 10 and scored a TD but please tell me how the O led them in postseason. 

They had over 400 total yards in three of the 4 post season games.  With an average O that team doesn't make the playoffs.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Who is the Patriots elite edge pass rusher?  4th Rounder Trey Flowers, with his 7.5 sacks?

Is 4th rounder Deatrich Wise (and his 4.5 sacks) an elite edge rusher?

If anaything, the Pats are evidence that you do not, in fact, need a #1 draft pick "elite edge rusher" to win Super Bowls.

Yes, Defense is important.  Yes, we want a good D to go with (we hope) a top 10 Offense.

But no, this Super Bowl is not in any way justification for the ongoing "we must draft more D-Linemen!  Something something edge!  Something something elite!" that infests JN like a plague.

When we have a top 10 offense, fine, then draft some D as needed.  Till then, we must support Sam Darnold if we are to have any chance whatsoever to win games.

right.  this whole playoff season we've seen these edge rushers get negated by the pass blocking.  and it's not like they have the second coming of munoz, or roaf out there at left tackle.  and the patsies did it with mainly a 4 man rush.  and what exactly happened to guys like suh and fowler?  if they had any hope of getting a huge contract in free agency, guess again.

the jets need to put together a well balanced offense.  able to pass but also able to get 2-3 yards every time it's needed.

[rangerous]

3 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Stop with this defense crap! The NFL is so damn fickle they don’t know what to do any more with the refs! 

How many bad calls were called on the Jets in the regular season? Buster Skrine has more holding  or PI calls in one game than refs called during the ENTIRE playoffs! 

Belichick knows the NFL wants flag free games, his DBs held from the moment they kicked off in KC to Gilmore seen holding & grabbing on every replay you saw last night including Cooks in the end zone where u clearly see he’s got Cooks wrist with an obvious hold.

This especially helps DBs playing teams that like to go down the field further, the refs can’t rven keep up, but the Pats offense with that short sh*t is played right in front of the refs. You can’t hold Edelman on a 6 yard route it literally has 3 refs eyes watching. 

I saw a play where a guy held Gronk a bit but that’s like trying to hold onto the bumper of car compared to Gilmore grabbing & holding Cooks wrist down so he can’t bring his arm up. 

Thats why the NFL regular season SUCKS now. Underdogs get flagged continuously, chosen teams? Very rarely, and when the playoffs come they’re told to keep the flags to a minimum, that’s how you get the horrible non call in New Orleans, there is zero consistency of how calls are made. Belli knows this & he’s a master at teaching it, that’s how you can change DCs every year and not miss a beat. 

Philly ran the ball well & took chances, BB has no plan for that it was off script. McVay, by throwing on every 3rd & short played right into BBs hands, tough to find open WRs being held & grabbed everywhere. Goff was always use to throwing to wide open guys all year.

maybe but at the same time if mcavay was such a gd offensive genius coach he would've seen what the patsies do and counter it with good play calling.  mcavay and his qb swallowed the bit.

[Bleedin Green]

16 minutes ago, CTM said:

The reality is that the last 4 teams standing were basically the 4 top offenses. Who gives a fart how Sunday's game played out. You cant win a championship if you arent playing and by an overwhelming margin the teams that host playoff games and skip wild card weekend tend to be the ones with the best QB/offenses.

 

Bingo.  You're not getting anywhere close to the big game without a top offense in today's NFL.  Now once you get to that point, the top offensive teams that also have a good defense are of course going to have an advantage over those teams that are completely dependent on outscoring the opposition in a shootout every time.  Not to mention, it is the top QBs/offenses that are those teams that have the greatest long-term success, while success from top defenses tend to be outliers and are rarely ever maintainable over time.

[Jetster]

2 minutes ago, rangerous said:

maybe but at the same time if mcavay was such a gd offensive genius coach he would've seen what the patsies do and counter it with good play calling.  mcavay and his qb swallowed the bit.

No one can do what the Pats do. Their offense is a choreographed ballet of picks executed to perfection & perfected for 17 years by probably the smartest QB to ever play the game. At one point last night Edelman made a hand motion behind his back, I have no doubt he was telling Brady his route & right or left off his break. It’s literally unstoppable if you don’t knock him off his route which is equally difficult. 

There is just no other QB in this league that has played in the same system as Brady for as long as he has. They just won a Super Bowl & he had 2 completions that went on the air over 15 yards! I mean give me a f*cking break! In the OLD NFL safeties would have lined up Edelman & put him in the hospital, guys like Lott even Ed Reed in his prime but we’re watching a different game, different rules & Belichick is the absolute best at finding guys that best at advantage of them. 

[jamesr]

16 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Buster Skrine has more holding  or PI calls in one game than refs called during the ENTIRE playoffs! 

 

Buster Skrine had 7 penalties all year. 6 on D, one on ST.

Most in a game was 2. He actually had zero penalties Week 3 - Week 15. 4 penalties total were PI (3) and holding (1).

So, nice narrative, but not backed up by the facts.  

[14 in Green]

I know this is out of left field, but whatever happened to the guy who went by defense wins championships in here? He was a frequent poster when I joined a few months ago. I won't ask the same about @UnitedWhofans  though...

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Who is the Patriots elite edge pass rusher?  4th Rounder Trey Flowers, with his 7.5 sacks?

Is 4th rounder Deatrich Wise (and his 4.5 sacks) an elite edge rusher?

If anaything, the Pats are evidence that you do not, in fact, need a #1 draft pick "elite edge rusher" to win Super Bowls.

Yes, Defense is important.  Yes, we want a good D to go with (we hope) a top 10 Offense.

But no, this Super Bowl is not in any way justification for the ongoing "we must draft more D-Linemen!  Something something edge!  Something something elite!" that infests JN like a plague.

When we have a top 10 offense, fine, then draft some D as needed.  Till then, we must support Sam Darnold if we are to have any chance whatsoever to win games.

Yet only 13 points were given up to a good Patriot offense, and only 3 points given up to a great Rams defense.

It isn't about where guys are drafted, it is about how good the defense plays. 

[section314]

5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Yet only 13 points were given up to a good Patriot offense, and only 3 points given up to a great Rams defense.

It isn't about where guys are drafted, it is about how good the defense plays. 

And how well they are coached. Or not.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

Things I learned yesterday.  Despite what some of you say, Defense still matters. It did yesterday and was a factor throughout these playoff games.  Brady and Goff weren't great yesterday, but it wasn't just because they were off.  Please.  Other things I learned yesterday.  The Patriots deserved to win.  It wasn't  even really that close.  Jared Goff isn't ready for prime time.  Fact of the matter is that he was slow to make his reads, find receivers, react to the rush, and release the ball.  Looked mediocre, stepped into his throws less than three times.  How come this "Offensive Genius" left his neophyte quarterback to sit by himself on the bench for the entirety of the game.  I saw 17 year veteran Brady conferring with his offensive coordinator throughout the game, Why was the reverse not true?  Sean McVey did not get outcoached.  Reason?  Because he did not coach, not much anyway.  Looked overwhelmed, to an extent.  Another thing I learned yesterday was that I want no part of Dante Fowler for the Jets.  Made one play early in the game, and then was invisible for the balance of the action.  The few times I did notice him, I saw a player who played without purpose and with less than maximum effort.  We've had plenty of those.  Pass.

[rangerous]

54 minutes ago, Jetster said:

No one can do what the Pats do. Their offense is a choreographed ballet of picks executed to perfection & perfected for 17 years by probably the smartest QB to ever play the game. At one point last night Edelman made a hand motion behind his back, I have no doubt he was telling Brady his route & right or left off his break. It’s literally unstoppable if you don’t knock him off his route which is equally difficult. 

There is just no other QB in this league that has played in the same system as Brady for as long as he has. They just won a Super Bowl & he had 2 completions that went on the air over 15 yards! I mean give me a f*cking break! In the OLD NFL safeties would have lined up Edelman & put him in the hospital, guys like Lott even Ed Reed in his prime but we’re watching a different game, different rules & Belichick is the absolute best at finding guys that best at advantage of them. 

that's a little much to swallow.  sure the patsies execute better than any other team in the league but please don't say other teams can't do it.  it's more that the other teams haven't had the same system in place and they're not getting the same amount of mileage by their receivers like the patsies are doing with gronkowski and edelman.