Why does the offensive line still stink? Except Becton

[Irish Jet]

Because Douglas decided to be a cheapskate and brought in inferior players for less rather than pushing for premium positions - Ended up overpaying when trash like Fant is a marginal upgrade on Edoga, if even that. Decided to wait until the 4th to add any depth to the interior of the line, even getting the luxury project QB before doing do despite that probably being the most pressing need on the team.

Also the organisation having no accountability and leaving the same horrible coaching in place. Pollack at the very least should have been gone after last year's debacle of a line - The same sh*t happening - Missed assignments, doubling up on guys when another comes untouched. Moving on from Bilal Powell for literally no good reason. Just horrible failure from the top down. 

[Mogglez]

According to the advanced statistics, Sam Darnold’s average “time to throw” is 2.84 seconds, right around the league average.  He’s got plenty of time to go through his progressions.  He just sucks at doing it.

By all means, keep blaming the O-line though.

[FidelioJet]

9 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

Huh? 
 

Why can’t we do both? 

Because Ultimately the system doesn’t matter. You need good players.  If you put good players in a zone system they would be fine.  

[rangerous]

10 hours ago, Alka said:

Didn't Joe Douglas spend lots of money in free agency on upgrading the offensive line?  Why, in the second half against the Bills, did Darnold not have time to throw the ball?  It seemed like he had 1 second before multiple players from the Bills defensive line were in Darnold's face.

I mean, outside of getting a top 10 draft pick on the offensive line, "Are the Jets not capable of recognizing competent players for the offensive line?"

Why hasn't Clark gotten a chance to play?  Is Van Roten that much better than Clark?  

I am lost for words.  I feel like if Darnold got more time yesterday, the Jets might actually have been able to win the game.  Darnold had no chance in the second half, and in my opinion, that was not his fault.

 

No, he didn’t spend lots of money.  As I recall the top free agents signed elsewhere so Douglas had to settle for second tier players. What he did do is get better players even if top tier. The main issue is they haven’t played together much. On Sunday Lewis was out and a back up played and not very well.

i think Douglas wants to get his oline mainly through the draft. Clark should be playing if he’s healthy.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

According to the advanced statistics, Sam Darnold’s average “time to throw” is 2.84 seconds, right around the league average.  He’s got plenty of time to go through his progressions.  He just sucks at doing it.

By all means, keep blaming the O-line though.

How is that time measured? Seems to me the oline gets pushed back quite a bit so defenders are within an arms reach and darnold has little or no space to follow through.

im not making any excuse for darnold just trying to find out how this time is measured.

[Embrace the Suck]

Actually they didn't spend a lot on the line. They signed some patchwork guys. There weren't many guys out there to spend on.

[maury77]

7 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

Low hangin fruit joe.

It’s the blocking schemes and assignments . No ability to pick up blitzes even when we have more in to block than are rushing

Does it raise any eyebrows that McGovern is having his worst year under gase?


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

Yes, but we can say that about a couple of players on the team. 

[Sperm Edwards]

On 10/26/2020 at 8:11 PM, THE BARON said:

because offensive lineman are very valuable and teams dont part with good ones.  JD added the best that was available in FA.  The pickins were slim. You need to draft them and you cant draft all 5 at one time.   He got the LT in the draft and that is a nice start.  blame mr coffee who ignored the offensive line each and every year

Meh. He got the best tackle in the draft, yes. It’s also true 2 were already off the board so he had a 50/50 chance, not a 1 in 4 chance, of picking the best of the draft class. Becton was billed more of a boom/bust (otherwise he’d have been the consensus first one taken with his size+mobility) and good for us we finally hit on one of these. Hopefully his shoulder holds up for 10+ years. Free agency maybe McGovern alone was the best available at his position.

Fant certainly was not the best tackle available. He’s better than expected only in that neither you nor 99% of the fans here had even heard of him - there wasn’t one mention of his name here - until Douglas signed him. It’s debatable he was even among the top 3 FA tackles; Douglas merely paid him the 4th-most. In truth he was not able to beat out Ifedi at RT in Seattle in head-to-head competition, and Ifedi signed with Chicago for the league minimum. I can understand and 100% get behind JD not signing Whitworth; the guy’s pushing 40. But Conklin was a $5MM/year discount over the pre-signing numbers being thrown around, and was the must-get player. Ask Nick Chubb if his new RT is holding his own on zone runs. Bulaga was also a far more proven veteran than Fant. I’m still curious why Fant - a career backup who only ever started when others were injured - was paid like a proven veteran starter. Best I’ve got is he was a hedge in case he had to play LT this year, feeling he’d do a better job than Conklin in those duties if a rookie was struggling. But that’s not the same as getting the best player you can get.  

Van Roten... a deserving butt of everyone’s jokes and subject of the most scorn went from being one of the league’s better pass-blocking guards with Carolina to just plain roten. He’d surrendered like 1 sack in 2019 IIRC, though I think he got some undue credit for McCaffrey’s success. But hey, PFF (lol) gave him their highest interior line grade week 5 so we’ve got that going for us, which is nice. When a player is pretty terrible for most of his career and then has an isolated string of 8-9 really solid games in one area (supposedly excellent pass blocking but meh run blocking): is it really the light finally going on? I’m not glued to all Panthers’ guards every game, so or was it someone else even worse (e.g. Williams) letting a defender through first, the stars aligning with favorable man-matchups before going on on IR, preventing him from getting exposed over the last 6-7 games. I’m not saying that happened; I’m wondering if, or at least to a degree. Did a once-in-a-career stretch of favorable PFF rankings make him the best OG available in FA? He certainly wasn’t the most proven. That’d be Glasgow, and perhaps a couple others.

Alex Lewis. He was a career letdown after getting drafted. We got truly lucky with him for a stretch in 2019 after the whole Osemele thing. Douglas rewarded Lewis with a huge pay raise and expectations that a brief, career-best stretch would suddenly become his baseline going forward.

McGovern was as solid a choice he could make at the time. He was a good starter for Denver at both guard and center, for longer than Van Roten’s brief (half of 2019) stretch, and yeah a significant bonus is he was no stranger to zone blocking when it’s dialed up. He hasn’t been the team’s worst lineman, but he’s nowhere near as advertised. It does beg the question why he’d suddenly look so much worse, like if the guards next to him are having a bigger negative impact on his play, except he’s also gotten beaten all on his own when there was no one else to blame.

Van Roten and Lewis are both one year band-aid type signings. Each is a guy you sign so you have a starter in place to begin (and if you get lucky, perhaps finish) the season while a rookie taken (after these signings) learns the ropes in practices and spot duty. Also so the team isn’t pigeonholed into taking a guard when there’s much better perceived value on the board. That guy is Clark, who’s only recently come off IR. If Clark turns into a decent starter many of us will be fast to forgive the Douglas OL signings since (if given the choice) we’d all rather he has an eye for talent in the draft than in FA castoffs. Particularly in light of his FA OL signings amounting to Kalil, Lewis, Fant, McGovern, Van Roten, and Lewis again. Yecch.

—

I do 100% agree with you on Mr. Coffee. What GM goes into an NFL season with Wesley Johnson as his serious, planned, unchallenged starter? No trade, no other FA signing, and not even a late draft pick on anyone to challenge him. A child who’s never watched a live or taped football game, armed with nothing but Madden ratings and internet access, could have done a better job than that boob. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Holy crap that was long. Lol.

[Beaver]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Holy crap that was long. Lol.

[Philc1]

4 hours ago, Mogglez said:

We got absolutely blown out by the Andy Dalton led Bengals last year.  Burrow would drop 35+ on us, no problem.

Either way, the question posed was how would Sam fare on that team compared to Burrow.  The answer is clear as day: he would be a lot worse.

Dalton owns the jets.  The bengals stink they just gave up 5 td passes to the sucky midget

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Holy crap that was long. Lol.

Now you know how we feel!

[THE BARON]

12 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

That’s not even remotely true.  He went bargain hunting and this is what you get.

Very good interior lineman are a "catch 22".   You don't want to pay a lot for interior positions on the offensive line, nor do you want to draft them in the first round unless it is a prospect like Quenton Nelson or Nick Mangold.  But, at the same time, good interior offensive lineman are worth their weight in gold once they are developed.  So... What does that mean ??? Either you pay big money for a position you should not pay big money for, or you do the right thing and draft interior lineman *regularly* in rounds 5,6 & 7 and you develop the good ones and cut the ones that don't pan out.

In short, the only way to add interior lineman *smartly* is by bargain hunting in FA, or drafting and developing them yourself.  

JD has only had one off season and one draft.  His first effort laded the Jets with a potential HOF LT in Becton.  

He also did the best he could with what was available in the FA market without paying QB money to interior lineman.   

Give it a season or two with JD and you'll have a good line. 

[THE BARON]

7 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Well sure that why it's not the best but the scheme they are running is stupid. Needlessly complicated and ineffective plays that they are supposed to run result in exactly what they should result in, terrible blocking, if everything goes right which it never will and the opposition only runs the vanilla crap we would still have problems.

This line could be too half of the league with a simple and modern offense and use some very easy motion and extra blockers to to help.

Oh, hell yes... Agree 100 %.  A HUGE part of the problem with the line, the running game and the QB is the design of the offense... 

[THE BARON]

19 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Holy crap that was long. Lol.

but damn good.  excellent assessment of the manpower on the line.  

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, THE BARON said:

Oh, hell yes... Agree 100 %.  A HUGE part of the problem with the line, the running game and the QB is the design of the offense... 

Change to a traditional blocking scheme and sign Brandon Scherff and Ty Nsekhe to upgrade the Right Side

[peekskill68]

9 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

So what do we make if this ya think?


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

I wish I knew.  Going back to the 60's, center was always a strength of the team. Schmidt, Fields, Sweeney, Mawae, Mangold...  Last five years has been rough.  A contributor to Sam's poor play for sure.

[DarnoldHomer]

3 hours ago, rangerous said:

How is that time measured? Seems to me the oline gets pushed back quite a bit so defenders are within an arms reach and darnold has little or no space to follow through.

im not making any excuse for darnold just trying to find out how this time is measured.

I need to understand that more too. Wonder if Sam scrambling for his life helps/hurts that stat as well. 

[GREENBEAN]

10 hours ago, DarnoldHomer said:

Can you explain more here please? Curious.

The protections are schematic.  Gase employs a zone blocking scheme which requires a completely different mindset, assignement as well as even specific types of players to fulfill the requirements.  

I'm no coach so please don't get it twisted on my level of knowledge. I know some stuff but ya know... 

One thing I would point to is Mcgovern is literally 20 pts lower in his PFF grade from the rest of his career. Shell is doing well in Seattle after struggling here. Even Tom Compton is doing well for his new team.   Its not to say that some fault falls on the player of course,  but not being able to set up the protections to account for where the gaps will be in the play is a short fall of the scheme itself. 

[GREENBEAN]

3 hours ago, maury77 said:

Yes, but we can say that about a couple of players on the team. 

Indeed we can. It's actually incredible how poorly players respond to Gase and how well they do after leaving him. 

[GREENBEAN]

52 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

I wish I knew.  Going back to the 60's, center was always a strength of the team. Schmidt, Fields, Sweeney, Mawae, Mangold...  Last five years has been rough.  A contributor to Sam's poor play for sure.

Absolutely.The JEts have a long tradition of strong center play.

I was fishing for the common denominator which is Gase.   

[Jet Nut]

14 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Aside from the players, stupid 'small athetic olienman and zone blocking'  I hate zone blocking schemes.  Oh fine for the running game, awful for pass protection.

 

This is pure nonsense, where you decide since our OL sucks its because of zone blocking.  The Washington Football Team, New Orleans Saints, Seattle Seahawks, Kansas City Chiefs, Green Bay Packers, and Los Angeles Rams all teams that use zone blocking schemes

Theres no one hard rule, it can be effective, very effective.  We just dont have the players 

[Beerfish]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

This is pure nonsense, where you decide since our OL sucks its because of zone blocking.  The Washington Football Team, New Orleans Saints, Seattle Seahawks, Kansas City Chiefs, Green Bay Packers, and Los Angeles Rams all run this way.  

Theres no one hard rule, it can be effective, very effective.  We just dont have the players 

If you fail on a passing assignment in zone blocking it is a free path to the Qb always.  If you have hof QBs that can escape massive pressure or one read it can work.

It is so tied to communication and playing together that if you have an injury or two you ar in trouble.

For the most part it sucks.  It certainly sucks for the jets.

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

If you fail on a passing assignment in zone blocking it is a free path to the Qb always.  If you have hof QBs that can escape massive pressure or one read it can work.

It is so tied to communication and playing together that if you have an injury or two you ar in trouble.

For the most part it sucks.  It certainly sucks for the jets.

Washington Football Team, New Orleans Saints, Seattle Seahawks, Kansas City Chiefs, Green Bay Packers, and Los Angeles Rams all use it.

Even with a journeyman QB and lack of talent Wash has 2 wins,.  The rest on the list are all top offensive teams 

Not seeing the scheme issue, seeing a talent issue as in we dont have much on offense and all of the above do.

[JetFreak89]

The line still "stinks" because you can't go from last to first overnight. It has dramatically improved from last year however. Alex Lewis is hurt (surprise) but is playing about up to expectations. We signed the top center in FA but he isn't living up to his previous play. The RG we picked up from the scrapheap is playing horribly but we will be able to get rid of him next year and our RT is playing up and down but overall below average. 

Hopefully the next couple of drafts we can address C, RT and hopefully one of the guard positions (assuming we don't pick up one of the more talented guards in FA this year). 

[STLuLu]

15 hours ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

He spent moderately and even when Darnold has time he holds the ball too long.

Darnold does not scan the field, he locks onto his receiver, and could have easily thrown 3 picks yesterday.

The line could be better, but he's a flawed QB and is part of why the line looks bad at times.

 

Good O-line or bad O-line, we all knew it was only a matter of time that Darnold was gonna throw a bad pick and change the outcome of the game.

[genot]

15 hours ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

He spent moderately and even when Darnold has time he holds the ball too long.

Darnold does not scan the field, he locks onto his receiver, and could have easily thrown 3 picks yesterday.

The line could be better, but he's a flawed QB and is part of why the line looks bad at times.

 

He never has a clean pocket. Sanchez was ruined because he never had a clean pocket. Every once in a while a QB has to buy time and make a play. Not 75% of the time he drops back to throw. Sanchez,and now Darnold are suffering some sort of ptsd. We ruined Sanchez. Now we're in the process of ruining Sam. Why would any QB out of college want to play here,considering that

[genot]

5 hours ago, Mogglez said:

According to the advanced statistics, Sam Darnold’s average “time to throw” is 2.84 seconds, right around the league average.  He’s got plenty of time to go through his progressions.  He just sucks at doing it.

By all means, keep blaming the O-line though.

That's a bullsh.. Stat. He almost never has a clean pocket to survey the field. He has jerseys in his face right after he makes his drops. 

[Fantasy Island]

15 hours ago, Alka said:

Didn't Joe Douglas spend lots of money in free agency on upgrading the offensive line?  Why, in the second half against the Bills, did Darnold not have time to throw the ball?  It seemed like he had 1 second before multiple players from the Bills defensive line were in Darnold's face.

I mean, outside of getting a top 10 draft pick on the offensive line, "Are the Jets not capable of recognizing competent players for the offensive line?"

Why hasn't Clark gotten a chance to play?  Is Van Roten that much better than Clark?  

I am lost for words.  I feel like if Darnold got more time yesterday, the Jets might actually have been able to win the game.  Darnold had no chance in the second half, and in my opinion, that was not his fault.

 

Because Bozo Joe thinks a pair of pliers from the Dollar Tree are as good as the ones you get at Lowes.

He is Idzik 2.0

[STLuLu]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Holy crap that was long. Lol.

Short version: Joe Douglas sucks?

[genot]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

How is that time measured? Seems to me the oline gets pushed back quite a bit so defenders are within an arms reach and darnold has little or no space to follow through.

im not making any excuse for darnold just trying to find out how this time is measured.

Bunch of nerds who we're working at gamestop becore the pandemic coming up with that stat. Your excuse for Darnold isn't an excuse. It's a fact. And that fact ruined Sanchez. Now,it's ruining Darnold

[addage]

14 hours ago, peekskill68 said:

Biggest disappointment so far has to be McGovern.  He was supposed to be better than he's shown.  Van Roten and Lewis have always been JAGs...  

McGovern was PFF = 71.9 last year and is 50.1 so far in 2020

 

Agree.  The thought was he might be a longer term answer.  Not the case.  Clear whiff by JD.

[bitonti]

12 hours ago, DarnoldHomer said:

20th out of 32 teams is good???? 

it's good enough to not get shut out

the worst part of this offense is the QB play but the play calling has also been atrocious 

and the scheme hasn't been good since Peyton Manning era 

the league has changed 

 

**

 

to answer the original question it's like half a  line right now. they need a new Right side

McGovern is a starter, probably at guard better than center. 

Lewis is fine, Fant, GVR and Andrews are backups that's the real problem.  Fant signing has been meh by the way. 

Becton, Lewis, McGovern is half a line. 

[Irish Jet]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Meh. He got the best tackle in the draft, yes. It’s also true 2 were already off the board so he had a 50/50 chance, not a 1 in 4 chance, of picking the best of the draft class. Becton was billed more of a boom/bust (otherwise he’d have been the consensus first one taken with his size+mobility) and good for us we finally hit on one of these. Hopefully his shoulder holds up for 10+ years. Free agency maybe McGovern alone was the best available at his position.

Given how Tristan Wirfs is playing - He pretty much couldn't miss.

Gettleman ensured we were getting a good player. 

[BROOKLYN JET]

21 minutes ago, genot said:

He never has a clean pocket. Sanchez was ruined because he never had a clean pocket. Every once in a while a QB has to buy time and make a play. Not 75% of the time he drops back to throw. Sanchez,and now Darnold are suffering some sort of ptsd. We ruined Sanchez. Now we're in the process of ruining Sam. Why would any QB out of college want to play here,considering that

Because they will not feel like they have the obvious flaws the USC boys had in college, which translate to bad/non NFL QBs.