Lawrence v Our Guy?

[nj meadowlands]

Voting for Zach just cuz Shane sux

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, oatmeal said:

1. I wanted the best available QB, idc who it was stop placing me on team Fields, TY

2. Im not arguing with you about the leagues worst QB , respectfully dude wtf are you typing rn ??

You do realize there was virtually no difference in the ranking of each QB that those who rely on numbers are so happy to make their case.  And that the ranking doesn’t take into acct rosters, injuries, etc that effect QB play.  But especially spewing cliches like Fields processes defenses quicker.   Based on nothing.  So yeah, don’t argue

[Hex]

I voted Wilson not because I see something in him that I like, but because I don't see anything in Lawrence either. While the Jaguars might be more of a dumpster fire than the Jets, most people who would rather pick Lawrence are the same people arguing that NO WEAPONZ isn't a good argument.

That being said, Lawrence has the upper hand in all stats except yards per completion and yards per attempt. And I'm only including % stats so that the difference in games played doesn't matter.

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Wilson had a crappy first season and is already building up an injury history.

Accurate.

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

That said, y'all are way to fast to throw the dude on the garbage heap.

I was unaware we had that power.  Pretty sure that decision is JD's alone, we can only see how it works.

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Is there some sort of monetary prize I'm not aware of to be the first one to claim a Jets draft pick is a bust?

I don't know, is there some sort of monetary prize to attack fellow fans for having differing opinions about a player's potential or future?

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

QB's need to be developed. Let's see what year 2 brings.

So far it's brought a second knee injury.

Hopefully it improves from here, because losing sucks.

 

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, Hex said:

I voted Wilson not because I see something in him that I like, but because I don't see anything in Lawrence either. While the Jaguars might be more of a dumpster fire than the Jets, most people who would rather pick Lawrence are the same people arguing that NO WEAPONZ isn't a good argument.

That being said, Lawrence has the upper hand in all stats except yards per completion and yards per attempt. And I'm only including % stats so that the difference in games played doesn't matter.

Good point. 

Btw, Lawrence also had a slightly worse TD/INT ratio. Hard to differentiate these guys based on anything they have done on the field - both had bad rookie years. For me, the biggest advantage Lawrence has over Wilson right now is that he's been more durable. 

[Spoot-Face]

Just doing a quick look at their stats, I don't see how you look at that and think that Lawrence is hands down better than Zach. They're pretty dead even in their suckitude, with Lawrence's 59% completion percentage over Zach's 55%, and 214 Y/G vs 179 the only significant upgrades. Zach was also sacked a lot more. They also won the same amount of games.

Some other stats?

Wilson - Lawrence

TD% 2.3 v 2

INT% 2.9 v 2.8

Y/A 6.1 v 6

Y/C 11 v 10.1

I bet that in some parallel universe in which Wilson went to Jax and Lawrence went to us, right now there is a thread on JN called "Wilson v Our Guy?" with all the votes reversed.

I'm not saying Zach is better, I'm just saying...

Does it really matter? It's splittin' hairs here.

 

P.S. Didn't vote, because it's pointless.

[kevinc855]

At this point you go with Lawrence because if you told me in the first 2 years Zach get hurt twice and in his rookie year be 9 TD 11 INTs I say You lying but here we are 

[slimjasi]

43 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

Just doing a quick look at their stats, I don't see how you look at that and think that Lawrence is hands down better than Zach. They're pretty dead even in their suckitude, with Lawrence's 59% completion percentage over Zach's 55%, and 214 Y/G vs 179 the only significant upgrades. Zach was also sacked a lot more. They also won the same amount of games.

Some other stats?

Wilson - Lawrence

TD% 2.3 v 2

INT% 2.9 v 2.8

Y/A 6.1 v 6

Y/C 11 v 10.1

I bet that in some parallel universe in which Wilson went to Jax and Lawrence went to us, right now there is a thread on JN called "Wilson v Our Guy?" with all the votes reversed.

I'm not saying Zach is better, I'm just saying...

Does it really matter? It's splittin' hairs here.

 

P.S. Didn't vote, because it's pointless.

Agree completely. 

The only reason I would feel better about having Lawrence right now are Wilson's consecutive knee injuries. Anytime you start hurting the same knee more than once, I think that warrants some raised eye-brows. It's nothing definitive, but it's obviously something to watch very closely going forward. 

[Spoot-Face]

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Agree completely. 

The only reason I would feel better about having Lawrence right now are Wilson's consecutive knee injuries. Anytime you start hurting the same knee more than once, I think that warrants some raised eye-brows. It's nothing definitive, but it's obviously something to watch very closely going forward. 

The injury argument is definitely valid, but, in terms of talking Wilson vs Lawrence, it'd hold more weight if Lawrence was substantially better. Looking at it now, had we had a fully healthy Lawrence for 17 games last season, we'd have actually have had less wins because we wouldn't have had the Mike White Bengals game. So...

Advantage: Gimpy Boy

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Because Jacksonville had the tiebreaker over us - once we beat the Rans, we lost control over our destiny. Had we subsequently lost to the Browns the following week, we still would have been picking 2nd. 

Beating the Rams could end up as one of the all-time low points in Jets history.  But half the board was inexplicably thrilled with the win.  Tell me. What does that game matter now and would 0-16 have even registered a blip vs 2-14?  

[Hex]

10 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Agree completely. 

The only reason I would feel better about having Lawrence right now are Wilson's consecutive knee injuries. Anytime you start hurting the same knee more than once, I think that warrants some raised eye-brows. It's nothing definitive, but it's obviously something to watch very closely going forward. 

I think he might have injured his throwing shoulder twice too right? In college?

[slimjasi]

Just now, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Beating the Rams could end up as one of the all-time low points in Jets history.  But half the board was inexplicably thrilled with the win.  Tell me. What does that game matter now and would 0-16 have even registered a blip vs 2-14?  

It certainly could, but we are a long way from there. Let's see what Lawrence and Wilson end up doing in the league beyond their rookie seasons. 

[doitny]

3 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Beating the Rams could end up as one of the all-time low points in Jets history.  But half the board was inexplicably thrilled with the win.  Tell me. What does that game matter now and would 0-16 have even registered a blip vs 2-14?  

depends on the other QBs. Jones, Fields, Lance. if anyone of those turn out to be good then it doesnt matter. we didnt have to draft Zach we could have drafted one of those guys.

[Barry McCockinner]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Accurate.

I was unaware we had that power.  Pretty sure that decision is JD's alone, we can only see how it works.

I don't know, is there some sort of monetary prize to attack fellow fans for having differing opinions about a player's potential or future?

So far it's brought a second knee injury.

Hopefully it improves from here, because losing sucks.

 

Feel free to have whatever opinion you want. I'll continue to feel free to point out when I think it's ridiculously early to write a guy off. 

[slimjasi]

20 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

The injury argument is definitely valid, but, in terms of talking Wilson vs Lawrence, it'd hold more weight if Lawrence was substantially better. Looking at it now, had we had a fully healthy Lawrence for 17 games last season, we'd have actually have had less wins because we wouldn't have had the Mike White Bengals game. So...

Advantage: Gimpy Boy

I also wonder how Mr. Generational not being so generational in year 1 would have gone in New York. 

[win4ever]

As much as I was against Wilson last year (preferred Fields), I thought he looked better than Lawrence.  

To me, Lawrence reminds me a TON of Darnold.  Lawrence's end last year reminds me of the optimism Darnold showed at the end of his rookie season (especially after the Green Bay game).  They both float back in the pocket, and throw off their back foot often, but I also saw a ton of scripted plays for Lawrence.  Part of it is the Meyer playbook, but he wasn't making many complicated reads, and struggled with making adjustments.  

Wilson sucked, but he sucked doing more complicated reads with worse players.  The Jags had Marvin Jones/Shenault at the end of the year, and both of them would start over the losers we trotted out there.  Berrios would start in the slot, but Lawrence had the better talent around him as well.  

Everyone goes nuts over his performance at the end of the year with the Colts, but gloss over the fact that they gave up 400 yards, 4 TDs to the Mike White/Josh Johnson combo last year as well.  That was a very up and down defense, that if you cracked them with good game planning, they weren't that good.   

I'm not saying Wilson is going to be a stud and Lawrence will suck, because they both have very good potential.  I'm just not buying this Lawrence ended the year great, so he's going to build on that momentum idea.  His college offense was incredibly simple, and that transition to the NFL is rough, which is very similar to the issue faced by Darnold.  He'll look great on scripted plays and then slowly decreases as the game goes on. 

Last year, Lawrence first quarter, second quarter, third quarter, and fourth quarter ratings in order:  94.4, 66.4, 67.1, and 67.5

In 2020, Darnold's first quarter, second quarter, third quarter, and fourth quarter ratings in order: 92.1, 70.9, 72.1, 54.8

For reference, Wilson, 49.9, 66.8, 82.3, and 75 - Nothing to write home about, but it shows better in game adjustment outside of the scripted plays.  

Lawrence when the game was within 7 points in the 4th quarter: 55.6 rating, Darnold in 2020 with us? 54.8  For reference, Wilson was at 100

A big reason why Darnold struggles is that he can't counter adjust to the defense changing their game plans and defensive shells, and I thought Lawrence showed issues with this as well.  Now, Peterson could take control and make those adjustments himself, but pure player for player, I take Wilson.  Maybe I'm scarred by Darnold, but Lawrence reminds me of the "Oh look at 2-4 games a year" Darnold.  Wilson sucked last year as well, but I thought he actually showed more mental capacity to decipher the game.  His biggest issue was mechanical, not setting his feet correctly on throws.  

I vote Wilson. 

I'm not arguing on injuries because that's just unpredictable.  

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, win4ever said:

As much as I was against Wilson last year (preferred Fields), I thought he looked better than Lawrence.  

To me, Lawrence reminds me a TON of Darnold.  Lawrence's end last year reminds me of the optimism Darnold showed at the end of his rookie season (especially after the Green Bay game).  They both float back in the pocket, and throw off their back foot often, but I also saw a ton of scripted plays for Lawrence.  Part of it is the Meyer playbook, but he wasn't making many complicated reads, and struggled with making adjustments.  

Wilson sucked, but he sucked doing more complicated reads with worse players.  The Jags had Marvin Jones/Shenault at the end of the year, and both of them would start over the losers we trotted out there.  Berrios would start in the slot, but Lawrence had the better talent around him as well.  

Everyone goes nuts over his performance at the end of the year with the Colts, but gloss over the fact that they gave up 400 yards, 4 TDs to the Mike White/Josh Johnson combo last year as well.  That was a very up and down defense, that if you cracked them with good game planning, they weren't that good.   

I'm not saying Wilson is going to be a stud and Lawrence will suck, because they both have very good potential.  I'm just not buying this Lawrence ended the year great, so he's going to build on that momentum idea.  His college offense was incredibly simple, and that transition to the NFL is rough, which is very similar to the issue faced by Darnold.  He'll look great on scripted plays and then slowly decreases as the game goes on. 

Last year, Lawrence first quarter, second quarter, third quarter, and fourth quarter ratings in order:  94.4, 66.4, 67.1, and 67.5

In 2020, Darnold's first quarter, second quarter, third quarter, and fourth quarter ratings in order: 92.1, 70.9, 72.1, 54.8

For reference, Wilson, 49.9, 66.8, 82.3, and 75 - Nothing to write home about, but it shows better in game adjustment outside of the scripted plays.  

Lawrence when the game was within 7 points in the 4th quarter: 55.6 rating, Darnold in 2020 with us? 54.8  For reference, Wilson was at 100

A big reason why Darnold struggles is that he can't counter adjust to the defense changing their game plans and defensive shells, and I thought Lawrence showed issues with this as well.  Now, Peterson could take control and make those adjustments himself, but pure player for player, I take Wilson.  Maybe I'm scarred by Darnold, but Lawrence reminds me of the "Oh look at 2-4 games a year" Darnold.  Wilson sucked last year as well, but I thought he actually showed more mental capacity to decipher the game.  His biggest issue was mechanical, not setting his feet correctly on throws.  

I vote Wilson. 

I'm not arguing on injuries because that's just unpredictable.  

Although I largely disagree, this was a very interesting and thought-provoking post. Thanks!

[Warfish]

34 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Feel free to have whatever opinion you want.

Thanks, I will.

34 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I'll continue to feel free to point out when I think it's ridiculously early to write a guy off. 

As you should, if that's what you think.  People are entitled to their irrelevant strawmen arguments.

[Spoot-Face]

36 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I also wonder how Mr. Generational not being so generational in year 1 would have gone in New York. 

Oh, I'm sure no one would be wanting to run him out of town, or anything like that!

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, Spoot-Face said:

Oh, I'm sure no one would be wanting to run him out of town, or anything like that!

not until he threw a pic on the first series of his first preseason game in year 2

[Barry McCockinner]

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Thanks, I will.

As you should, if that's what you think.  People are entitled to their irrelevant strawmen arguments.

[Warfish]

13 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I'm glad you like Pepsi, and have a gif of you drinking it, but that's sorta off topic I think.

[GreenFish]

3 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I’m still in Zach’s corner, but you are absolutely kidding yourself if you prefer him to Lawrence right now.

Eh. Lawrence wasn't great past year either. Case for Zach: Zach has better arm talent, and is more athletic. He also is more committed to the game.

Like I said earlier, I preferred Zach at the time of the draft but would go Lawrence now by a hair. But it’s not clear cut. Lawrence has as much to prove as Zach.

[Spoot-Face]

33 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

not until he threw a pic on the first series of his first preseason game in year 2

Well, then they'd be justified.

[chirorob]

12 hours ago, PS17 said:

Lawrence in a landslide. Beating the Rams is still this team’s worst moment in recent memory. 

Well, my wife was in labor, and my daughter was born just a few hours later, so it's a good one for me.

[playtowinthegame]

I'll take Zach Wilson, because I don't want to screw up Joe Flacco's revival.

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

39 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

not until he threw a pic on the first series of his first preseason game in year 2

That pick exemplifies how crazy this board is.  In one thread (or more) so many are burying Wilson as the future QB and are ready to move on from him to  Flacco ( a career mediocre QB who had one good 3 game run at the right time) based on two preseason passes.  In another thread, some of the same people are defending the Favre signing and ignoring the horrific picks he threw to lose playoff games.  The Wilson preseason pick - career determinative.  The Favre picks in crucial game deciding circumstances like potential game winning drives and overtime (and his crappy performance as a veteran in 2008) - excused because he had a great arm when he wasn't injured and wasn't Pennington.    

[PS17]

8 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Well, my wife was in labor, and my daughter was born just a few hours later, so it's a good one for me.

You’re lucky you had a pleasant distraction! This place was melting down like I’ve never seen before. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

That pick exemplifies how crazy this board is.  In one thread (or more) so many are burying Wilson as the future QB and are ready to move on from him to  Flacco ( a career mediocre QB who had one good 3 game run at the right time) based on two preseason passes.  In another thread, some of the same people are defending the Favre signing and ignoring the horrific picks he threw to lose playoff games.  The Wilson preseason pick - career determinative.  The Favre picks in crucial game deciding circumstances like potential game winning drives and overtime (and his crappy performance as a veteran in 2008) - excused because he had a great arm when he wasn't injured and wasn't Pennington.    

Everyone is ready to move on from Wilson and start hating the next QB we draft

[Fantasy Island]

6 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

It's just another bash Wilson thread. 

We're back to here now - where 3/4 of the board is - New threads so I can bash our young QB.

 And if the thread isn't about bashing Wilson we'll find a way to make it one.

Sad really.

Zach is stunted.  He has reached his ceiling.  Not bashing, just facts.

[GangGreened]

Lawrence by far. Zach Wilson isn’t even a relevant NFL player to anyone outside of the Jets/their fans 

[FidelioJet]

16 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

Zach is stunted.  He has reached his ceiling.  Not bashing, just facts.

And you know this from a bad read in a pre-season game?

[JohnnyLV]

5 hours ago, maury77 said:

I'd still take Lawrence and Fields over Wilson even though they were all terrible last year. I know I'm a Fields homer, but the kid is so athletic, smart and tough, I have a hard time not seeing him figure it out eventually (even though the team around him is horrendous). 

As we discussed at the time, I just do not see it with Fields at all, but he unquestionably has the short straw in terms of having an environment to allow him to develop,

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

Fields

More durable, higher floor, higher upside, has put more big-time throws on tape so far, has the leadership traits Zach doesn't.

They didn't have the chance to draft Lawrence so that's a moot question.

[Beerfish]

The whole crop is mediocre and massively overrated.  Lawrence being touted as generational for two years was a flat out laughable joke.

If I had my choice now?  I'd certainly take him over wilson but none of the top guys are going to be 'great'