Goodbye 3-4

[ElBarrioJets]

As a longtime lurker since the JetsInsider days, I gotta say, I am a bit wistful for the end of the 3-4 (presumably) with the addition of Gregg Williams. 

Mangini got it kicked off in 2006 by trying to make D-Fat a nose tackle, signing guys like Kimo Von Oelhoffen to space eat, trading Vilma because he didn't fit the new scheme, helping Bryan Thomas actually have a decent year. Frankly it took years for the fanbase to wrap their heads around what the scheme actually needed: big ass NT, stout ILBs, DE/OLB hybrids. Rex took it to new heights in 2009/2010, but by and large the Jets' experience with the 3-4 was littered with moments of brilliance but never quite what it was supposed to be: Placeholders at NT, rotating door at linebacker, no real edge rusher, square pegs in round holes, etc. But I think the most important point from that experience, it took more than one offseason to get the scheme right without some clear glaring holes that opponents could exploit. 

My question to the board is, can the Jets make this switch in one offseason? Is there a middle ground to be had schematically as we transition from 3-4 to 4-3? Who the eff do we target to bring it all together? Anyone on the current roster who could surprise? 

The 3-4 was fun, but ultimately never quite successful. It was an odd period in Jets history. I am strangely sad to see it go. 

[Beerfish]

our 3-4's failed because we never had a true effective pass rushing olb.  It is amazing just how much Gholston set the team back.

Edit, oh and i think we will have no issue at all making the transition for the same reason.

[tfine]

We had a decent 4-3 defense under Herm with Donnie Henderson as DC but that took a couple years. Getting Vilma helped since he can go sideline to sideline. We had Ellis and Abraham in their prime as well. We never really had the corners until Revis came.


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[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

 I am not concerned at all about the "Transition".  The word is that while Williams' base defense is a 4-3,  he is also known to run 3-4's out of it as a change of pace look, depending on the look of the opponents' offense  game situation, etc.  Williams  long tenured career and legendary "playbook" have earned him  the reputation as an innovative, diverse Coach,  who adjusts his schemes to his personnel.  Players expected to fit well with Williams system include Leonard Williams,  Jamal Adams, Darron Lee, Marcus Maye,  and Trumaine Johnson. Players considered a lesser fit include Henry Anderson, Jordan Jenkins, and  Avery Williamson.  Interesting players to watch include, Frankie Luvu, Neville Hewitt, Derrick Jones, and Parry Nickerson.  Free Agent/Draft needs include a stout nose tackle, edge rusher, slot cover corner, and a stud linebacker with coverage and blitzing skills.   I, for one ,will not miss the 3-4.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

This entire topic exists only for people who think it’s fun to throw words around and pretend you know what you’re talking about. The differences between the 3-4 and the 4-3 circa when the Steelers and the Patriots were just about the only ones doing the former do not exist anymore. Every single team uses alignments that combine gap assignments and techniques from both. Everybody plays more nickel and predominantly under fronts in base. Football really is interesting and complicated, just not in ways that are super amenable to armchair bullsh*tting.

[Butterfield]

4 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

This entire topic exists only for people who think it’s fun to throw words around and pretend you know what you’re talking about. The differences between the 3-4 and the 4-3 circa when the Steelers and the Patriots were just about the only ones doing the former do not exist anymore. Every single team uses alignments that combine gap assignments and techniques from both. Everybody plays more nickel and predominantly under fronts in base. Football really is interesting and complicated, just not in ways that are super amenable to armchair bullsh*tting.

I agree...that said, there are still players that fit better when you are running a system that is predominately one or the other.  

[Gen X Jet]

41 minutes ago, tfine said:

We had a decent 4-3 defense under Herm with Donnie Henderson as DC but that took a couple years. Getting Vilma helped since he can go sideline to sideline. We had Ellis and Abraham in their prime as well. We never really had the corners until Revis came.


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Herm was the anomaly.  Belichick ran the 3-4 for Parcell's Jets in the late '90's.

[papz187]

our 3-4's failed because we never had a true effective pass rushing olb.  It is amazing just how much Gholston set the team back.
Edit, oh and i think we will have no issue at all making the transition for the same reason.

Thinking about Gholston is crazy....it feels like a lifetime ago we drafted him, but if he were a hit there would be a good chance he'd still be an effective player 11 years later.

That was the last time I bought a rookies jersey....not only did he suck, but he also changed his jersey number like a year later too.....talk about money pissed away lol

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[Gen X Jet]

11 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

This entire topic exists only for people who think it’s fun to throw words around and pretend you know what you’re talking about. The differences between the 3-4 and the 4-3 circa when the Steelers and the Patriots were just about the only ones doing the former do not exist anymore. Every single team uses alignments that combine gap assignments and techniques from both. Everybody plays more nickel and predominantly under fronts in base. Football really is interesting and complicated, just not in ways that are super amenable to armchair bullsh*tting.

You must be a barrel of fun at parties.

[rangerous]

3-4, 4-3, makes no difference as long as they have the players.  4-3 may be easier to flesh out because there are more big guys out there than there are truely good edge rushers. and same things with nose tackles.  maybe willams goes with a 4-3 base defense but he knows enough to change things around to take advantage of the offense he's playing.

[Jetpain]

Thinking about the 3-4 vs the 4-3 and tho joe Klecko was the best D lineman we had, did we ever have a D lineman put in a more dominating season than Kris Jenkins that one season. ??

[MichaelScott]

The more I think about it, the more I'm excited about the switch. I got really depressed when it hit me that we went to 3-4 during manginis first season. We have played primarily 3-4 ever since and we have not had what you would consider a quality pass rushing OLB THE ENTIRE FREAKING TIME!! (Calvin Pace doesnt qualify as what I think of when I think pass rushing OLB). 

I think it's going to be really good for the team. I think we might see a big jump for Lee and I am even more confident that Leo is finally going to be disruptive. Obviously the Leo part is contingent on us signing/drafting (or both!) Pass rusher and finding someone solid to play DT next to Leo. We just never had the LBers in the 3-4 that scare anyone and it was too easy to double Leo. 

It does suck that we might be making Williamson useless, or at least not near his potential (think Vilma in 3-4). I dont know if he has the speed to play MLB in a 4-3. Also bummed that we will probably be moving on from Anderson but not nearly as much since he is a FA

[Sonny Werblin]

53 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

our 3-4's failed because we never had a true effective pass rushing olb.  It is amazing just how much Gholston set the team back.

Edit, oh and i think we will have no issue at all making the transition for the same reason.

There are 2 main ways to play a 3-4. Either a one gap attacking 3-4 that relies on penetration and needs edge rushers to excel. And a two gap bend but don't break D that denies big plays and forces the O into long error free drives to score.

Everyone loves the one gap pressure D because it thrives on stars on the edges, but you really need the personnel to make it work. Jets could never find the edge rushers needed to predominantly play one gap.

BB runs a 2 gap when he's in 3-4, even when he's in 4-3, and he's lauded as a D genius. It kills me that no one seems to be copying his 2 gap system. Regardless of personnel, it always seems to have success in the only stats that matter... Points against.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

8 minutes ago, Gen X Jet said:

You must be a barrel of fun at parties.

This is what you talk about at parties?

[MichaelScott]

1 hour ago, ElBarrioJets said:

As a longtime lurker since the JetsInsider days, I gotta say, I am a bit wistful for the end of the 3-4 (presumably) with the addition of Gregg Williams. 

Mangini got it kicked off in 2006 by trying to make D-Fat a nose tackle, signing guys like Kimo Von Oelhoffen to space eat, trading Vilma because he didn't fit the new scheme, helping Bryan Thomas actually have a decent year. Frankly it took years for the fanbase to wrap their heads around what the scheme actually needed: big ass NT, stout ILBs, DE/OLB hybrids. Rex took it to new heights in 2009/2010, but by and large the Jets' experience with the 3-4 was littered with moments of brilliance but never quite what it was supposed to be: Placeholders at NT, rotating door at linebacker, no real edge rusher, square pegs in round holes, etc. But I think the most important point from that experience, it took more than one offseason to get the scheme right without some clear glaring holes that opponents could exploit. 

My question to the board is, can the Jets make this switch in one offseason? Is there a middle ground to be had schematically as we transition from 3-4 to 4-3? Who the eff do we target to bring it all together? Anyone on the current roster who could surprise? 

The 3-4 was fun, but ultimately never quite successful. It was an odd period in Jets history. I am strangely sad to see it go. 

I have faith that Williams will run a system that gets the most out of the players he has. I also have faith that he is going to speak his mind when it comes to FA and the draft in terms of the D players he wants. This is big for me because I kind of feel like I have more faith in Williams ability to pick players than I do Mac and I feel better knowing Gregg with be in Mac's ear this off season 

[Larz]

Jets ran a bunch of 2-4-5 last year 

 

[joewilly12]

Good news.

[ryu79]

The only time I recall our D being really scary in 3-4 was the handful of games when Big Jenks was healthy...

Those were good times.

[BCJet]

1 hour ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

 I am not concerned at all about the "Transition".  The word is that while Williams' base defense is a 4-3,  he is also known to run 3-4's out of it as a change of pace look, depending on the look of the opponents' offense  game situation, etc.  Williams  long tenured career and legendary "playbook" have earned him  the reputation as an innovative, diverse Coach,  who adjusts his schemes to his personnel.  Players expected to fit well with Williams system include Leonard Williams,  Jamal Adams, Darron Lee, Marcus Maye,  and Trumaine Johnson. Players considered a lesser fit include Henry Anderson, Jordan Jenkins, and  Avery Williamson.  Interesting players to watch include, Frankie Luvu, Neville Hewitt, Derrick Jones, and Parry Nickerson.  Free Agent/Draft needs include a stout nose tackle, edge rusher, slot cover corner, and a stud linebacker with coverage and blitzing skills.   I, for one ,will not miss the 3-4.

Well said.  Williams will put his best 11 out there depending on situational football.  Thats what good coaches do

[talisaynon]

lmao yea. i remember reading those stupid jets.com article about the transition in 2006 and being giddy.

Thought we finally got our pass rusher in Gholston. Was screaming J-E-T-S walking down the block to the bars in Boston land.

Love it. Bye 3-4. When your best pass rusher is Calvin Pace you know you done ****ed up.

Jesus 10 years and our best pass rusher was Calvin Pace.

Bryan Thomas, Aaron Maybin, Vernon Gholston, Mauldin, Pace. 

YIIIIKES

[nycdan]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

Jets ran a bunch of 2-4-5 last year 

 

Sometimes it felt more like a 2-3-5

[F00tballGuy69]

Assuming we will switch to the 4-3, AS IT STANDS TODAY who's our starting 7 up front on D? 

                 Lee          Williamson           Hewitt?

Copeland?     H Anderson      L Williams       J. Jenkins

 

A lot of question marks here. Lee, Williamson & Williams are solid.  Henry Anderson played well last year,  but didn't Colts trade him because they didn't think he'd fit their 4-3?  Jenkins is a better fit in the 3-4 IMO.  Copeland/Hewitt obviously must be upgraded.  Mac will have his work cut out for him. 

[Barry McCockinner]

We are going to need to add a mlb, olb, a pass rushing de and depth on the front seven. I think we're set at DT, and Jenkins can start on the strong side at DE. Lee should be really good at the will backer but we'll need a Sam and a Mike. I don't know if anyone on the roster currently projects to those roles.

Tough to fill everything out in on off-season. If we're lucky maybe we'll find a trading partner transitioning the other way. Were the bucs a 4-3?

[jgb]

I want a DC who zigs when anyone zags. Go with whichever scheme is run by the least amount of teams and implement that. Should be easier to find talent for disfavored schemes than to compete with every other team running the most popular scheme.

[Greenseed4]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

our 3-4's failed because we never had a true effective pass rushing olb.  It is amazing just how much Gholston set the team back.

Edit, oh and i think we will have no issue at all making the transition for the same reason.

Gholston wasn’t the only first round pick that has set this team back, I can think of a few more...

 

NYJ First Round Picks (since 2008)

2018: Sam Darnold

2017: Jamal Adams

2016: Darron Lee

2015: Leonard Williams

2014: Calvin Pryor

2013: Dee Millner / Sheldon Richardson

2012: Quenton Coples

2011: Muhammad Wilkerson

2010: Kyle Wilson

2009: Mark Sanchez

2008: Vernon Gholston

[The Troll]

I’m glad to see it go.

We never had the personnel to utilize it effectively. In 13 years, our best pass rusher was ******* Calvin Pace.

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

At least we are not giving up a Vilma or Farrior this time, the current players seem to fit the 4-3 as well, if not better than the 3-4 so I am not as concerned this time

In the past, it seemed the Jets had most of the pieces in place, ready to take the next step and then changed, starting over again, rebuilding the defense - this time the defense and players may actually improve year one

 

[thebuzzardman]

10 hours ago, Gen X Jet said:

You must be a barrel of fun at parties.

Guest 1: "So, these new trade agreements, interesting"
Guest 2: "Yeah, I mean, protectionism might be good, but there are definite downsides"

Misslonelyhearts: "You two are cretins unfit to discuss such matters!!!!"

[NYJ1]

12 hours ago, ElBarrioJets said:

As a longtime lurker since the JetsInsider days, I gotta say, I am a bit wistful for the end of the 3-4 (presumably) with the addition of Gregg Williams. 

Mangini got it kicked off in 2006 by trying to make D-Fat a nose tackle, signing guys like Kimo Von Oelhoffen to space eat, trading Vilma because he didn't fit the new scheme, helping Bryan Thomas actually have a decent year. Frankly it took years for the fanbase to wrap their heads around what the scheme actually needed: big ass NT, stout ILBs, DE/OLB hybrids. Rex took it to new heights in 2009/2010, but by and large the Jets' experience with the 3-4 was littered with moments of brilliance but never quite what it was supposed to be: Placeholders at NT, rotating door at linebacker, no real edge rusher, square pegs in round holes, etc. But I think the most important point from that experience, it took more than one offseason to get the scheme right without some clear glaring holes that opponents could exploit. 

My question to the board is, can the Jets make this switch in one offseason? Is there a middle ground to be had schematically as we transition from 3-4 to 4-3? Who the eff do we target to bring it all together? Anyone on the current roster who could surprise? 

The 3-4 was fun, but ultimately never quite successful. It was an odd period in Jets history. I am strangely sad to see it go. 

The Jets had the number one defense in 2009. The number 2 defense in 2010. So all due respect, that defense was everything it was supposed for a few years.

[NYJ37/12]

The Jets ran the 3-4 under Parcells starting in 97'. During halftime of the second game, home opener against the Bills, Belichick switched to a 4-3 because of injuries. I believe they ran a hybrid most of that year. The next year with Ernie Logan and trading Hugh Douglas, they were able to run their version of the 3-4. James Farrior was meant to be their pass rushing OLB but it was a community effort with guys like Cascadden chipping in. That team consistently ranked in the top half of the NFL in points against, which is really the most important stat. 

I love the 3-4 personally. The 4-3 can work,  but the Jets have no DE's that fit. I think like most teams today, the Jets will be a hybrid defense under Williams. 

[Barry McCockinner]

21 minutes ago, NYJ37/12 said:

The Jets ran the 3-4 under Parcells starting in 97'. During halftime of the second game, home opener against the Bills, Belichick switched to a 4-3 because of injuries. I believe they ran a hybrid most of that year. The next year with Ernie Logan and trading Hugh Douglas, they were able to run their version of the 3-4. James Farrior was meant to be their pass rushing OLB but it was a community effort with guys like Cascadden chipping in. That team consistently ranked in the top half of the NFL in points against, which is really the most important stat. 

 I love the 3-4 personally. The 4-3 can work,  but the Jets have no DE's that fit. I think like most teams today, the Jets will be a hybrid defense under Williams. 

Jordan Jenkins will be fine at DE but he's not that big time edge rusher you'd like to have. Thankfully there are some FA 4-3 DE's we can sign to play the other side. I like Jadeveon Clowney if he makes it to FA. He's stout against the run and pass.

[TNJet]

13 hours ago, Jetpain said:

Thinking about the 3-4 vs the 4-3 and tho joe Klecko was the best D lineman we had, did we ever have a D lineman put in a more dominating season than Kris Jenkins that one season. ??

Yes Abraham at DE was the best I've ever seen play, although im too young to see the sack exchange in action.

[Savage69]

8 minutes ago, TNJet said:

Yes Abraham at DE was the best I've ever seen play, although im too young to see the sack exchange in action.

In 1981 Klecko and Gastineau combined had 40.5 sacks then in 84 Mark had 22 by himself.. 

[sec101row23]

It doesn’t matter what you call it.   Teams are in nickel like 60-70% of the time anyway.  Regardless of what you run you need to be good on the edges, athletes at pass rusher and corner are necessary.  That’s where I would devote my resources to, need guys who can get to the QB and guys who can run with receivers.   

[GreenFish]

More than anything, the Jets just need two new edge rushers that can get after the QB on a consistent basis. Leo, Shep, Anderson and Pennel are plenty good enough for the interior rush and run defense. We don't have anyone bringing the heat on a consistent basis from the edge. 

We are mostly going to be in nickel anyways. So no need to invest in LBs. Williamson and Lee are fine. If anything we need to bring in a slot corner. 

Whether it's Gregg or Bowles, we have the same issues on this defense. No edge rush and no slot corner. Skrine was a liability out there and we don't have anyone that can step in at the position at the moment. Roberts, Nickerson and Jones are probably better suited to be backups or outside corners.